Candice Wu 0:00
Let’s get real, playful, and authentic with Liz LaForce. She is just a wonderful, bright, brilliant energy and in this episode, she talks about her identity crisis and how she’s witnessing herself, the idea of daring to see yourself reconnecting with love, dance expression and voice as a way to hear the reflection of self and finding the love inside of you.

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love. My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Cleanse and release dead weight with The Ally with Death experiential. It’s an audio experience where you can listen to the sound of my voice along with some beautiful, provocative, and stimulating handpan music by Larry Saint Germain, an artist in Chicago.

In this experiential, you can make space for what’s growing and emerging inside of you, within you, and shave and slough off any excess old habits, energies, beliefs, stuff that’s just lurking and molding perhaps inside of you, and purify your being of what needs to die, give space for new creation, nourishment, and take some forward steps. You can find the experience at CandiceWu.com/death.

Hello, everyone. It’s wonderful to have you back on the Embody Podcast. I am in Mexico City, Mexico and I am just loving it here. Last week, I shared a few updates and also sound bites from Mexico City. I love the sounds that hold this culture together, the taste, the smells, and the colors, as well as the different mannerisms and ways that they’re kind to each other. I’ll share a little more next week so that we can jump into this episode with Liz. But, I’m having a fabulous time and just took a week trip to Oaxaca and came back and just went riding today for a full day.

And this horse, Cornella oh my gosh, he was just — wanted to run. I’ve never met a horse that wanted to run so fast to gallop. And there was this long stretch in this backcountry road of the Hacienda that we just went for it and it was so much fun. The guide that took us there, his horse is younger than mine, but he couldn’t even get his horse to go as fast as my horse was going and not particularly because I wasn’t trying to get him to go faster, he just wanted to go and in fact, I was slightly slowing him down just to maintain a connection with him. But it was so much fun. You can find some of those pictures and stories on my Instagram if you hit travel or if you hit horse love, you can find some of the bits of my trip in Mexico City and my ride with this horse, Cornella. You can find my Instagram at CandiceWu.com/instagram.

Let’s jump into this episode with Liz.

I really enjoyed talking with Liz because she’s just so incredibly authentic and open and herself. And here she is having a crisis, identity crisis, as she said, and it was quite fitting because I was in something myself, something was emerging. But it was really lovely to hear her talk about it.

So, a little bit more about Liz. She had a major turning point in her life at the age of 24 and it was the beginning of a totally new lifestyle for her, in which her talent by birth, to connect with the intangible, reopened, and started to blossom. At that time, she studied with a spiritual master, traveled the world to classes and sessions on spiritual and personal growth for many years, and mostly learned by tuning into her own inner guidance and life itself. She’s guided and taught others towards their own path for 25 years now as a life coach and personal development trainer and has been a teacher at the ICM coaching program and lived and work on Ibiza for four years. She gives one on one and group transformational retreats. Nowadays, she’s based in the Netherlands, in her home country. But she works globally, combining her background in business, economics, and spirituality, she guides business leaders and entrepreneurs back into their core through compassion, connection, and communication. So, let’s talk to Liz.

So Liz, last time we talked you were in Ibiza, and you were working with couples. And where are you now in the world and what are you doing?

Liz La Force 5:35
Right now, I’m in Amsterdam, the city of Amsterdam. I’ve taken a little break, to be honest. I’m still giving some sessions but I’ve taken a break just to — it’s quite a transmission from Ibiza back to the Netherlands. So, I’m taking the time and space to, yeah, to get grounded again in my own home country after seven years of leave. I mean, I left the country seven years ago.

Candice Wu 6:02
Oh, I didn’t realize that, that’s a long time. What called you to come home?

Liz La Force 6:06
Well, exactly that… I was just called, I don’t know what you would like to call it, but I just strongly felt, yeah, I certainly felt I needed to go back. Yeah. And it feels like the right place to be at this moment. So, I’m at peace with the decision and being here but it just, yeah, it’s also an opportunity for me to sense again, like, deeply what I want and what I really want to manifest over here. So yeah, it’s good. It’s nice to have time, it’s a luxury I think.

Candice Wu 6:41
That’s really lovely. Yeah, I love that you just follow the call and that’s how I’ve been really — That’s how I’ve been really functioning lately too, in the last several years but more so than ever I just feel what the answer is, even if it doesn’t make sense in my mental logic.

Liz La Force 7:02
What was your last calling?

Candice Wu 7:05
Oh, well, to really stay home actually, for this last year, I’ve been in Michigan with my family and it has been truly wonderful. Like, all the work I did, healing, all the dynamics that I have inside of myself, really paid off with my family. And it’s just been this lovely time. But suddenly, a couple of weeks ago, it was really cold here in Michigan, lots of snow and I just started to feel the call to go to Mexico. So that’s where I’m headed next.

Liz La Force 7:39
Oh, that sounds lovely. Yeah, that’s a good call.

Candice Wu 7:44
Yeah.

Liz La Force 7:45
It’s my experience that’s not always like, well, sometimes it’s something you really are looking forward to like you’re saying like, okay, I’m, it’s, the call is me going to Mexico and it feels really good but I also have calls where I was like, “Okay, seriously, do you want me to go there?” And then just after having the experience, I understood why, you know, so it’s not always as I see it already in the beginning and you’re like, “Oh, yeah, this is a good call. I really want to do this.”

Candice Wu 8:16
Right. Yeah, that’s so interesting, when you get the call and it’s not like really? And when was that last that you had that experience?

Liz La Force 8:25
Well, I think like, two years ago already, I came back from a visit to the Netherlands and I came back in Ibiza where I was living at the time and I just felt like, really felt like, oh my gosh, it’s going to end here. I’m going to leave this island. I’m going to leave my life here which was — I was given retreats and I was having fun and it’s a beautiful, lovely island and I had my friends there but I just knew it was time has come to say goodbye. And so that was like, almost like a shock, there was a distance between the knowing and the personality I guess. So it took me like a whole summer and I took the whole summer to just, to close that gap, like, to really understand like, yeah, it’s a good call, I need to go. Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:15
I love how you describe it, the gap between the knowing and the personality. So how did you close the gap? What was that process like?

Liz La Force 9:23
Well, I think, a part of it was mourning, you know, allowing myself to mourn for the fact that I was closing something and I was closing something that at the surface at least, felt good, feeling deeper inside of myself, I could see that I had learned and experience everything I could on the island. So it was okay to leave it but I mean, yeah, I think that was the process. Allowing myself also to feel the sadness and, yeah, all the human stuff. Sometimes, at least for me, it always has been, I wouldn’t say very easy, but easy to tap into my higher knowing and just following my intuition, but my lessons have more been to really allow my human side also to mourn or to grieve or to you know, to be bad angry or to just really feel those human emotions too, that come along with changes.

Candice Wu 10:21
Yeah. Is that part of what brought you to Love4Life Academy and what you do now? What brought you here?

Liz La Force 10:28
Yeah, definitely. I think, my own process, but also seeing, I mean, when you start to experience that being yourself, which sounds so easy, and it’s so hard, otherwise, more and more people will do it.

Candice Wu 10:44
Yeah.

Liz La Force 10:46
So, when you start to see what that can bring to you, I mean, the relaxation and the joy, and with the joy all the — I mean, all the abundance and all the things that come along with it. That’s something I wish for everybody.

And when I was very young, I already could sense when people were not like being authentic. And of course, a lot of us, me included, I mean, sometimes you’re totally unaware of the fact that you’re not authentic. You believe that what you’re expressing and the way you’re acting is who you are until you start to really feel and connect more honestly with yourself and start to, again, close that gap between what you are thinking that you are and the way you really truly are.

Candice Wu 11:38
Yeah, I find that I’m continually finding different layers of that inauthenticity, you know, layers of things, ways of being that helped me survive something in the past, but it’s not really who I want to be now. But it would come in many layers even now, I’ll find other layers and, well, okay, you know, there’s a clear way to be myself now, with that mourning or healing or looking at whatever feelings are there, but yeah, I’ve often found it’s just a continual process. How has it been for you?

Liz La Force 12:13
Well, I think it’s an endless process. It’s like you’re saying, sometimes I definitely had the arrogance in a boss to say like, Yeah, I do know myself. And now, I can laugh about it because no, I don’t. You know, I know myself as I am at this moment. Yes, that’s true.

Candice Wu 12:34
Yeah.

Liz La Force 12:34
And I try to be as authentic as I can in this moment, you know, by really being honest about what I feel and what I think. But I’m discovering, like you were saying, I’m discovering new layers, almost no, almost daily now, you know, and it’s like, okay.

Candice Wu 12:50
Yeah. Okay.

Liz La Force 12:54
But it’s fun. It’s getting more and more fun because we’re both laughing about it. You know? That’s the way I think you can, if you can relax and embrace yourself and love yourself more and more and feel that it’s okay, whatever comes up and whatever you’re seeing about yourself, even if it’s the dark inside of you, if you can feel and sense that it’s okay and you’re still lovable, then it becomes lighter and more humorous. And it’s, yeah. And then the process becomes more fun.

Candice Wu 13:26
It took me a long time to get here.

Liz La Force 13:28
Yeah, me too. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Candice Wu 13:34
Even sometimes I can be so serious.

Liz La Force 13:36
Oh, yeah. I’m still learning to be more and more playful, but I, yeah, absolutely. But it’s, sometimes it is serious as in if you’re really dealing with some, like, the shit to call it that way, you know? Then it is, it can be quite heavy. And so it’s not —

Candice Wu 13:57
It calls for that…

Liz La Force 13:57
Yeah, so it’s easy to say, yeah, it’s playful, but that’s something that comes, there comes a moment where you can feel like, ease and you become lighter and more joyful, but it’s not something, again which you can just fake it’s palpable, I suppose a lot of people try but it’s, all these things just come from the inside you know and they come up and then it’s true and then really there and still I’ve got my dark days, I mean, it’s not that I’m always laughing and always having fun. It’s still sometimes a battle going on inside of me.

Candice Wu 14:36
So what kinds of things you want to talk about today on the podcast? I know you mentioned authenticity. What else is alive for you right now?

Liz La Force 14:46
Well, I think what’s also very much alive, it’s all interconnected. It’s like giving space and taking space. Like you were saying, I’ve spent my time last year with my family and I’ve stayed in one place. For me, to also just stay in one place and being in the Netherlands now, I can sense what it does, and what it can do instead of like, going everywhere or, you know, filling ourselves up with all these experiences, all this entertainment, almost, all these activities, and yeah, creating the space and really going deeply into that peace and rest and allowing things to come up. I really treasure that at this moment. I really treasure it and I can see the value of it. And I still believe that while most of us, myself included, we’re often still in the very Yang energy so the acting and the doing instead of, yeah, really deeply sinking into the — just sitting thing with whatever appears, yeah.

Candice Wu 16:02
Yeah, we can just so easily get moving to not look at what appears or to try to find the next thing.

Liz La Force 16:11
Definitely.

Candice Wu 16:14
Yeah, there’s such a value in being home and being rooted and just letting it all have the space to open up and air out.

Liz La Force 16:23
Yeah, and we’re blessed. I mean, you’re blessed to have the family and the place to do that right?

Candice Wu 16:30
Absolutely.

So you grew up in the Netherlands?

Liz La Force 16:34
Yes, I did.

Candice Wu 16:35
Okay. Yeah. What was it like for you?

Liz La Force 16:40
I grew up in a very small village in the Netherlands, in the southern part of the Netherlands. And yeah, I guess I always had this, more like, I’m always calling myself a “world citizen”. So the village was quite small and the ideas people had we’re not like the same ideas I had already as a child. So yeah, that —

Candice Wu 17:05
Is it really diverse in the ideas and also the people or no?

Liz La Force 17:10
Yes, also the people yeah.

Candice Wu 17:13
Oh wow.

Liz La Force 17:14
Yeah that was interesting when I was very young. It’s a — yeah. But it was a good start and a peaceful village and yeah, I can look back with joy to my youth definitely.

Candice Wu 17:28
It sounds really lovely. I’m just curious. I think, the first time you and I talked we just jumped right into part of your story. You know, the journey of you getting towards this place in your life when you are working in Ibiza and working with couples, working with different people, just teaching them to love life and be themselves and really find authenticity. Would you like to share that story here with everyone listening?

Liz La Force 17:59
What exactly do you want to know?

Candice Wu 18:01
I don’t remember, I can’t remember which pieces of the story that really intrigued me but just like the journey of you, you feeling like you and being yourself. I remember feeling that was very interesting.

Liz La Force 18:14
I was giving trainings in businesses and at a certain moment, it was like, almost like an out of body experience.

I was looking down upon myself and I was like, “Okay, this is me, but it’s only a part of me.” And I already was like, doing the spiritual work and I knew and also, I mean, I’ve been born with certain, well, I don’t know if I want to call it gifts because I think everybody has them. But I’ve developed like the clairvoyance and a clairfeeling and I couldn’t use it in the job that I was doing, being hired to give like, these leadership trainings and I just, in that moment, decided like, okay, this is it, I’m going to stop. I’m going to sell all my stuff. I’m going to travel. I know I need to travel, and I need to see how life will be when I’m fully myself. Again, as we said earlier, as far as I know, myself —

Candice Wu 19:21
Yeah, as far as you could tell —

Liz La Force 19:23
Yeah, but that’s what I did.

I left the Netherlands and I started to travel for two years, I just traveled the world. I had a foundation called the Best of U. And I was just giving trainings where I was too young in self-confidence, a way, to just to earn some money, but also to meet people. And I just started to be me. And the amazing thing was that I was, of course, as we know, I started to attract certain kinds of people. I started to have these experiences. Yeah, life was really taking care of me instead of me needed to be in control and so for two years I was just guided to all these countries and met people and I was invited and but after two years I ended up back in the Netherlands. A little bit tired I must say of all the traveling.

Candice Wu 20:18
I bet. Yeah

Liz La Force 20:20
Yeah. So, and then I asked the question like okay, I still don’t sense that I’m supposed to live in the Netherlands but I don’t know where to live. So whatever it is, just give me a clear sign because I’m not moving anymore. I’m just staying where I am in this moment.

And then I woke up the day after or two days after and I had a song in my head. I think it’s Britney Spears song like, we’re going to the Ibiza and that’s — I didn’t hear that song on the radio, but it popped up in my head and I was like, okay, you know, funny but then Ibiza starts to pop up like, everywhere. Like, I was seeing it on posters and people were starting to talk about it. And I was like, okay, perhaps I need to check this out. Ibiza is known as a party island so it didn’t really appeal to me. I was like, I don’t know, I’m not really into partying or —

Candice Wu 21:20
One of those moments like, really?

Liz La Force 21:21
Yeah, that was really — Yeah.

But then I looked it up in the internet, and of course, I saw that it had more aspects and also like, a beautiful nature and I just decided to book a ticket and I left with my suitcases, and I ended up at the island and in the, I think it was within 48, 24 or 48 hours, I just, I felt like okay, this is the place where I need to be. I found a house. I bought a car. And a week later, I call my family and like, well, I don’t know, I’m living here and I’m staying here.

So yeah, that’s how I —

Candice Wu 21:58
It’s really happening.

Liz La Force 21:59
It’s really happening. And I didn’t even know what I was going to do there but the moment I found my house and I was sitting in the house within 10 minutes, I just wrote my business plan, so to speak. And I just knew, okay, I’m going to give retreats and I’m going to have people coming over and people from all over the world came.

So yeah, it was an interesting experience.

Candice Wu 22:24
That was the next seven years?

Liz La Force 22:25
No, that was the next five years.

Candice Wu 22:30
Okay.

Liz La Force 22:31
Yeah.

So, yeah, that’s, then for me that was I think that the first very clear message from the universe, like, if you are just being you, you know, this is what can happen. You know, it doesn’t take that much more than you being you. But the moments you’re going to step in between and you’re going to just think about what you need to do or what you need to say or what you need to — then it gets tougher.

Candice Wu 23:03
Yeah, it’s a, how do you be in that flow? How do you find yourself aligned with that? I think that can feel challenging for people and for me sometimes.

Liz La Force 23:14
That’s very challenging and I think it’s about because, I am not saying that I’m always in the flow now, sometimes, I’m definitely not. But that’s for me the moment that I can sense now that I’m not. I think the first thing is to acknowledge it, you’re not in the flow.

Candice Wu 23:30
Yeah.

Liz La Force 23:31
The first thing is to acknowledge that you are struggling. The first thing is to acknowledge that you’re not feeling really happy, you know, that’s, I think, the first thing. And then to really start to look honestly about what is it, what’s making me feel sad, or what is it that’s not allowing me to be in flow, so you can self-investigate, like, really reflect — self-reflection, but for me, it really helps to sit and feel. I think my body is like the computer telling me where the default is. So for me, my body is really the entrance to the information I need to understand what’s going on and why I’m not in the flow.

Candice Wu 24:15
Yeah, I have a similar process. I find that if there are like questions in my life or if I’m just sensing what’s next, or even what’s today, if I sit and just be with myself, then whatever is in the way of those clarities or what needs to be revealed for that to come forward, it just starts like matriculating and I love that you said like a computer because it’s almost like, it’s that time I can defrag and then it’s a lot clearer but sometimes I don’t have answers and that’s okay. It’s just, okay. Here’s maybe what’s the next step or I’m here right now. And that feels good. So it’s, yeah, I love that idea of the computer and how it feels.

Liz La Force 25:04
Yeah. It’s like you said it’s giving attention to yourself, right? It’s like being present with yourself, that’s already 80% of the solution, that’s my experience. As you said, you don’t even need to know the answer. You don’t need to know exactly what’s going on. At least for me in the past, I was always eager to know. I wanted explanations. I wanted to know everything. But it also took a lot of energy and now I’m learning. I’m still learning to just — yeah, it’s okay. Whatever I know, I know. But if I don’t know things, that’s okay, too. Whatever is happening is happening. And I guess that’s what I meant with creating space and becoming comfortable in that space, and that’s also becoming comfortable with unknowing.

Candice Wu 25:55
Why do you think unknowing or the unknown can be so scary for people? Is it scary for you?

Liz La Force 26:02
Oh, yeah, definitely.

Candice Wu 26:04
Yeah.

Liz La Force 26:04
I don’t need to think about that. Now, it’s —

No. It’s very scary at moments. It’s very scary. It’s like you’re going to die. That’s how I feel it. It’s how I experience. It’s like, Okay, my gosh, whenever I really truly connect with that space like that dark unknowing, then it feels like I’m going to die. And in a way you are, because everything you thought you knew is going to die, it needs to die to get into that unknowing. So for me, I don’t know about you, but for me, it’s really about all that — we totally think we’re in control rights with a lot of stuff, we think we’re in control and we identify ourselves with everything we do and say and think we are and the things we see and the materialistic things we have gathered and you know, the status we have and yeah, but letting go, totally letting go and stepping into it is letting go of all of that.

Candice Wu 27:02
Yeah — Right. Yeah, I don’t know, if you know, the thought that we think we’re in control, like, I don’t know, when you asked me that, I think in the past I would have said, Yeah. I am, or at times I would have said absolutely not like, I’m just kind of subject to my own emotions and like the things that happened to me. But now I feel some sort of mixture of both, or maybe sometimes one and sometimes, not both as far as the world happening to me, in my emotions, but some sense of like, collaboration maybe, like, there are things that I can control, there are things that are not in my control, that pop in or come in or are part of some unconscious part of me or the world and there’s this constant navigating through that, playing back and forth with that. I don’t know. I really don’t know but that’s just how I can put words to something at the moment.

Liz La Force 28:02
Yeah, but I think it’s true. It’s definitely, yeah, I sense the same, but it’s very, yeah, I don’t know, either. I mean, I’m also still discovering and playing around with it in a way and I think yeah, that’s, we’re all just trying to figure it out, and we probably will never figure it out, right? That’s what I sense like, okay, it’s, yeah —

Are we ever going to really know? I don’t know.

Candice Wu 28:30
Yeah.

Liz La Force 28:32
As I said, it seems like an endless spectrum of things we can learn and discover and I don’t know if there’s an end to it, to be honest.

I do know the experience and I had the experiences of really being in a certain place, space where there was, yeah, and I would call it the unknown. I don’t know if that’s what it was, but where there was absolute peace and yeah, nothing is. And I was totally okay with it. But it’s just fractions and moments. It’s not like a constant state. So, yeah, and whatever that is, I don’t know, you know, who even that is like, I don’t know.

Yeah, that’s an experience. I mean, and at that moment, you sometimes think you have a glimpse of something, but you don’t even know. So, but that’s the thing.

Candice Wu 29:23
It’s part of the magic.

Liz La Force 29:24
It’s the magic. Yeah. And, I think, for me, freedom is coming.

When I was much younger, and also when I started this spot, I really wanted to know. I needed to know things. I needed to know what was over there, you know, and now I’m so much more relaxed and I’m okay with not knowing. I’m totally okay. And if this is life and nothing is ever going to change, then it’s okay too, you know, and then —

Candice Wu 29:52
Yeah.

Liz La Force 29:52
To me it is a very nice, yeah, place to be in.

Candice Wu 29:55
That sounds beautiful. Yeah. There’s a lot of acceptance and being with what is.

Liz La Force 30:03
Exactly.

Candice Wu 30:04
It sounds like —

Liz La Force 30:05
Yeah, and that feels for me, I was always looking for freedom. But that feels like yeah, that in a way feels like freedom. It’s like, oh, okay, just not that much that needs to be done. You know, it’s another — in a passive way like, Okay, so I’m going to sit here on my couch and I’m not going to do anything. No, because there’s a lot of aliveness next to that. There’s a lot of things that want to come alive through me but yes, I think it’s the right word you’re saying, it’s certain acceptance and then yeah, that feels good, gives a lot of peace.

Candice Wu 30:40
Beautiful.

Liz La Force 30:42
Yeah.

Candice Wu 30:43
Yeah. I find the same thing, just that more acceptance of not knowing. But for me, you know, it’s a multitude of different things that supported me and being more comfortable with it. One was looking at my young life and how things that were unpredictable, were scary and then felt like I was going to die because it was so like, big of an emotion without the proper kind of support that I needed.

But then, also looking at, for me, in my experience of past lives, like, they would just appear at different times to me that something was of a past life and that maybe I did die or that I didn’t die, but I felt like I was going to, in these kinds of severe, more severe experiences. And there was a lot of healing for me in seeing that part of me from a past life and letting that part see me in this life that I was actually alive again, or still or whatever it is, you know, maybe it’s not a past life, maybe it’s another dimension, but whatever it is, there’s this feeling that it’s a part of me and that really started to release some of my fear, fear of actual death, you know. And then that cleared up the unknown and unknowing space was like, oh, that, you know, it might feel painful to let go of some things or change things but it’s not feeling like, I’m going to die into a million pieces and crumble anymore, but sometimes it has. So —

Liz La Force 32:25
Yeah.

Candice Wu 32:25
Do you relate to any of that? How was it for you?

Liz La Force 32:28
Yeah, definitely I can relate to what you’re saying.

There are so many different experiences in us, aren’t they?

I mean, it’s like you’re saying sometimes I’ve experienced that I, Okay, I understand I’m not and never ever got, I’m going to really die. And then at the same time, you can sense that you’re really dying because it’s also who’s the experiencer in that moment. That’s what I hear in your story too, like, which part of you is having the experience and so giving the interpretation of the experience. Yeah.

Candice Wu 33:08
Yeah. So what’s fun in your life right now? What’s bringing you joy? What feels like you?

Liz La Force 33:16
What feels like me? Wow.

Candice Wu 33:20
I dare ask that question after the beginning of our podcast so far.

Liz La Force 33:29
I’ve no idea this moment. To be honest, I have no idea this moment, that’s the most honest question I can give to you. And it’s —

Candice Wu 33:35
Yeah.

Liz La Force 33:36
Yeah, because I’m going through so many changes that it almost feels like I’m in an identity crisis, you know? So all the things I thought I was, I’m still am on a certain level. And at the same time, I’m really again, figuring out who I am.

So yeah, that’s, I think the space where I’m in right now. It may sound crazy, but this — Yeah, this is it, this moment.

Candice Wu 34:05
No, it doesn’t sound crazy.

Liz La Force 34:08
Yeah.

Candice Wu 34:09
So not to me at least. Yeah.

So you’re figuring out who you are now and sounds like things are breaking down.

Liz La Force 34:15
Definitely.

Candice Wu 34:15
Dying off.

Liz La Force 34:17
Yeah.

It is going as I said, it’s a crazy time. It’s really happening quite fast and it’s like, Okay, I have no idea and the moment I want to, like, create like an image of myself I’m like, Okay, but I do want to do things or I do want you to know, and then I can feel that I’m forcing myself into a form. And so, I’m really allowing the form to come like, to really understand like, Okay, this is the new me. And at this moment, then the most honest answer is like, I don’t know and I’m okay with it.

It’s not that I’m like not able to do my groceries or I’m not eating or you know, I’m doing all the normal stuff. I’m doing all the normal stuff. Nobody’s seeing it even, I think, if you would see me as like, but I can sense if I’m really honest. And I’m like, Yeah, I don’t know, at this moment. It’s really taking a new form and I don’t know how it’s going to look like exactly.

Candice Wu 35:03
It feels so alive. You know, in the death, I feel so alive. Because, yeah, who knows what’s going to come out for you and who is going to come out?

Liz La Force 35:29
Yeah, and it’s scary. It’s sometimes too, and it’s not like, but, yeah, no, I’m really, like I said, I’m really happy that I’m allowing myself to really go through it. I think I’ve done this kind of process before, but now I’m really staying with it. I’m like, Okay, I’m not going anywhere. I’m just going to be here and yeah, it’s quite interesting.

Candice Wu 35:59
Yeah. I’m curious for you as this continues, you know, just how it is for you. And, I don’t even want to say, you know, who comes out on the other end because it’s just being in the now.

Liz La Force 36:11
Yeah.

Candice Wu 36:12
So here and now.

Liz La Force 36:14
Yeah.

Candice Wu 36:18
So do you even find it a struggle? You know, I hear what you’re saying, you know, that it’s not always easy that sometimes it’s, well, I hear you say it’s not, it’s sometimes scary. But these are the kinds of experiences that most people say, are a struggle. But to me, what it feels like you know, even the lightness in your voice about it sounds like it’s a delight.

Liz La Force 36:43
Yes, it is. But on another level, it’s a struggle. There’s so I can sense the struggle inside of me, but I don’t experience it as a struggle. So there is a struggle going on and sometimes it can feel like ugly and nasty and I can even feel nauseous or whatever. I don’t know, I can just, yeah. Look at it and be with it.

Candice Wu 37:08
Yeah.

Liz La Force 37:10
Accept this thing again, I think. I mean, I’m accepting that this is the case and I’m just allowing it to play out the game. And then yeah, so yeah. But it’s not like, again, not that people will think that I’m only like laughing about this whole process. Sometimes there’s sadness coming up you know, or still anger or whatever and then I’m not in the I’m so happy mood. I mean, then that’s the emotion that comes up and I’m allowing that to be but there was always the one that’s observing it. I think that has been the practice over the last 20, 26 years.

And I think because there was a practice, it’s easier now to be the, yeah also very much and strongly be connected with the observer when the past, I would like have lost myself in the process where I would like — it felt like really in those dark places but also, I was in a dark place and now I’m not in the dark place. I’m the one that’s looking at the one in the dark place and that’s a huge difference.

Candice Wu 38:17
Yeah and that agreement to look and be with it makes all the difference between true struggle and suffering —

Liz La Force 38:24
Exactly.

Candice Wu 38:24
-and the emotion. The whole plethora of emotions that you do feel.

Liz La Force 38:29
Exactly, yeah,

Candice Wu 38:31
Yeah.

Liz La Force 38:32
And it’s funny, I haven’t even, while talking with you and I’m saying these things, Oh, yeah, that’s the difference. You know, I didn’t mean —

Candice Wu 38:40
That’s a big — realizing it now.

Liz La Force 38:44
Yeah, a little bit more than I did before. So thank you. Yeah.

Candice Wu 38:46
Yeah. That’s great, glad to share this moment with you.

Liz La Force 38:53
Yeah.

Candice Wu 38:54
Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing with everybody that’s listening.

Liz La Force 38:58
I’ll happy to share always.

It’s sometimes hard to find the words right, for these kinds of things. And also not to make it sound like too light. Because for the people that are still like, you know, sometimes me too, in the past, I did have my struggles and it was heavy and it was, you know, anything. I do believe if I look back because some sometimes, I wonder, I don’t know about you, but I want to like, okay, the way I’m now experiencing this couldn’t have done the same like 20 years ago, and I wouldn’t have been so much easier. But then again, I think I can experience it this way because I went through all of this. So it’s every step of the way is one step. And I don’t know if it is, or if you can just trespass one. How do you think about that?

Candice Wu 39:53
If I’m getting it right, yeah, I would agree with my own experience with that. Like, I don’t feel Iike I’d want to change anything that happened or didn’t happen and the struggle that did happen.

And yes, they were huge, painful struggles even, you know, even a year and a half ago, even last summer, you know, big feelings, big emotions, big experiences, and then the amount I struggled or suffered, varied, given, you know, how much I could really witness and be with myself and want to be or, want to abandon myself or do it unknowingly. But, yeah, I wouldn’t really want to change anything because, because it gave me everything that is now, I think, as you’re saying, and it’s all okay, it’s now. But there were so many times in my life, I didn’t feel like things were okay. So I think it’s just a lovely place to feel now, where It feels like, maybe the words for me are like the past is a bit at peace or I am at peace with who I have been and who I am now, in this moment, and maybe not all the time, but for the most part that’s more of how I experienced myself and not.

Liz La Force 41:21
Yeah. And for me, it’s interesting that even if I’m, well in the past and I, when I did like inner child work or, and I went back to my inner child, there was always these well, also things that happened in my past and created like sadness or anger or whatever. And now if I go back, there’s only happiness, which is really fun for me. It’s like I, you know, at a certain moment, you’ve rewritten the program. So there’s nothing — if I go back, there’s a happy family and it’s a happy parent and it’s like happy, where in the past, when I went back, the worst of course, I also had my traumas and my things.

So that’s also a very interesting thing. But you need to connect with the traumas and the things first to rewrite them. If you don’t acknowledge them and you hide them, and you’re not able to rewrite them. So, but it’s an interesting thing for me to experience like, Okay, this is so funny. My whole system is rewritten.

If you’re talking about joys like, Oh, okay. Yeah.

Candice Wu 42:34
Yeah, I had an experience similarly, and actually, I was feeling really tired at this point in my life.

It was some time in the last six months, I was like, I’m just tired of doing, just feeling certain things and it hadn’t even been that long that I was feeling those things. It was more just like the words needed to come out, the feeling of that needed to come out and come to the front. So I was feeling like, I’m just so tired of feeling this. And then I thought, well who’s feeling this? And I checked in with my younger selves and I was like, Is it anyone, who’s feeling so tired right now? And my younger self was just joyful and playing and just like, what we’re fine back here. She’s looking at me like, you’re the one that’s feeling tired. You adult self Candice, and I’m like, oh, now my younger self is healing me.

Liz La Force 43:33
Exactly, but it’s also because, at a certain moment, you’re so used to doing the work that you forget, even when the work is done, you’re still doing the work.

I think that’s funny was like, an interesting point, where I’ve done so much healing on myself and then I hardly could, it was like an addiction almost. It was like, Oh, but I need to do the healing. I need to do all the stuff out of myself. And then I’m not saying again that the healing is stopped or that nothing will come up or, but, yeah, it’s a different experience now, whether it was really like almost that, yeah, I’ve always so used to doing that kind of work and then and letting go of that phase was also, yeah, quite a big thing for me. Yeah.

Candice Wu 44:17
Yeah, I can relate to that addiction as well.

Well because you know, I think for me that came about because it really worked, you know, things were really working when I was choosing to do certain kinds of healing techniques or like, being with myself in certain ways. And then I thought, well, let’s go for more. Every time I felt better. So I kept wanting more so yeah, it was, but it’s such a different experience to say well, healings, not everything you can just go straight for the joy or straight for whatever you want to experience or a full experience of human life.

Liz La Force 44:54
Exactly, yeah, and that will heal you.

Candice Wu 44:59
Yeah. Anyways, okay. That will heal you but not for the purpose of let’s do more —

Liz La Force 45:08
No, exactly, yeah.

Candice Wu 45:10
Yeah. It’s funny how that works. Yeah, funny. Perfect, right?

Liz La Force 45:15
Yeah, definitely.

Candice Wu 45:17
Yeah.

So what, in the work of supporting people with authenticity, what do you find comes up? What are the struggles or what are things people are working with or that you’re working with that really help others, you know, see something for themselves?

Liz La Force 45:41
Well, I think the most important thing in becoming more authentic and daring to really face yourself, the ugly, and the nice part is at first, reconnecting with love and feeling that you are loved.

You described earlier that did you understand that there is a love inside of you, outside of you everywhere and that’s always there for you.

And for me, if you start to connect with that and start to feel that, then you can bring that love towards all the pieces, all the aspects of yourself. So for me, that’s the first step. And it’s not, yeah, and so for me how it works is like different kinds of ways.

I mean, like, I really like to reconnect people with their body because that’s where we sense and where we can feel things.

Nowadays, I’m using all kinds of creative expression forms for it, like dance and liberation of the voice, like singing, some more creative forms than I did in the past.

In the past, I was mainly working with meditation and visualizations and healing. Nowadays, I bring in more like, creative expression forms. It’s playful and that’s what I really wanted to bring into my work, you know, more playfulness and also things that people can do at home. I mean, you can dance at home and start to feel things if you do it in a certain way or you can use your voice and start to hear things in your voice and understand that, your voice is also a representation of certain aspects in yourself.

Candice Wu 47:26
Can you say more about that, that intrigues me about just using your voice and hear things in your voice?

Liz La Force 47:33
Well, you can hear in somebody’s voice, I don’t know about you, but I can hear in somebody’s voice if where they are in their body. If they’re like, really grounded or if they’re like, high or if they’re excited, or if they’re tired or you know, all these kinds of things, I think everybody can hear it in a certain way.

But then there’s also the making of sounds which can start to really loosen up certain blockages in our body. So yeah, you can use the voice in different ways. But it’s very interesting for yourself to hear if you’re like, I had a tendency, I still, I’ve got a loud voice. If I’m really excited, I’ve got a very loud voice. But if I’m really deeply connected, I’ve got a very soft and lower voice, you know.

So it’s, yeah, just whatever is needed also, if I’m, yeah, sometimes and all okay for me. It’s not like, I’m all I need to be in that kind of a voice and I always now, I need to focus with Candice, I need to be very Zen and very spiritual and I need to talk like this. And you know —

Candice Wu 48:22
Right, Not for control.

Liz La Force 48:43
No, it’s not for control. Is there a Yes or No?

And it’s there when I’m giving meditation, visualization, my voice, you know, it starts to become different and it says another resonance. So it has another effect on people. That’s how it works. But that’s with everything. If you’re talking about being authentic, it’s like, also allowing whatever wants to be spoken through your saying through your — Yeah, to happen.

Candice Wu 49:12
I just love that because it’s so indicative of or not indicative it’s so like, everything you know, the playfulness and just letting things be witnessed, arise, and that it’s not for self-criticism, it’s for the exploration and everything has a different effect in resonance. Everything has an impact in a certain way and you get to see what that is.

Liz La Force 49:38
And beautifully put like as you’re saying, everything.

I just wrote in Dutch, a blog, and there I told a client of mine like, everything inside of you has the right to be there. Everything inside has a right to be there.

And for me, you know, sometimes you saying things to another you’re like, Oh, wow.

Candice Wu 50:02
I love it… Yes, right. Yeah.

Liz La Force 50:05
So I was hearing myself saying those words, and I took them in and later, and I was like, just sitting with the words I was like, Yeah, but this is it, you know. We’re so, often, we’re just saying like, Okay, if I want, like, I’m a spiritual teacher and I need to be like this, or I’m a singer and I need to perform, and I need to do it like this. We all have, I am a director in the business and I need to act like this. We have so many ideas about how we need to act and what we supposed to be, and we’re neglecting and disowning all the rest inside of us all the time.

So for me, it’s like everything is allowed to be there.

If the happy child wants to come out and wants to come out now, then it comes out, you know. And if the Zen master wants to say something, then he will speak and it’s okay, you know, because it’s no longer about me identifying with one of them. I’m all of them. So they’re all allowed to be here.

Candice Wu 51:10
Yes.

It just gives my whole body complete relief to hear those words. Everything inside of you has the right to be there. One-hundred percent is so beautiful. Beautifully said, thank you.

It’s such a cool experience, you know that it just came through you?

Liz La Force 51:30
Yeah.

Candice Wu 51:31
And it was like, yeah.

Liz La Force 51:33
Yeah. But it is like you’re saying, I had the same it’s like, okay, you know, okay. Because, yes, exactly.

Candice Wu 51:42
Yes.

Liz La Force 51:43
And I really if it is something I’m passionate about, and I’m going to share this with the world. If there’s, you know, like — okay, everything’s okay. Everything’s okay, seriously. So let’s stop also, let’s stop thinking we know what is okay and what is not. Because we don’t?

Candice Wu 52:08
Yeah, we keep trying.

Liz La Force 52:09
We keep trying. Yeah, and we will. I’m not going to end in this year.

Candice Wu 52:16
Yeah.

Liz La Force 52:19
It’s interesting. But it also, as we said earlier, and I said earlier, I mean, it takes a lot of self-love. It takes a lot of love to start to see that everything’s okay and to embrace everything.

Candice Wu 52:34
Completely. It takes a lot. Yeah, especially in the pockets, the pockets of myself that, like, felt historically that didn’t get what they needed. It’s like filling in those gaps, takes a lot of love, takes support. And yeah, I don’t want to downplay how much that takes and going back to like, heaviness or seriousness sometimes that’s truly needed and truly the place we’re at, and it’s all to be seen and honored in its time.

Thank you, Liz. This is so lovely to talk to, and I know that you’re going to be offering an experience or meditation. Do you want to say something about it? Is anything coming to you about what you’d like to share? Create?

Liz La Force 53:23
I don’t know yet.

Candice Wu 53:28
I love it.

Liz La Force 53:28
Yeah. Because I think it has. Yeah, it’s probably going to have to do with the last sentence we share. You’re allowed to be here.

Candice Wu 53:38
Yeah. Totally.

Liz La Force 53:39
Let’s see what pops up.

Candice Wu 53:42
Yeah, let’s see.

So for anyone listening, it’s in the unknown. You’ll have to find out.

Liz La Force 53:49
Yeah.

Candice Wu 53:50
Yeah. Anything else you want to mention or share today, Liz?

Liz La Force 53:53
No, I’m grateful. I had this conversation with you. I’m, yeah, it was a nice talk, Candice.

And for everybody who’s listening, I do hope you can start to love yourself like, endlessly, like you’re so worth it.

Candice Wu 54:11
Yeah.

Liz La Force 54:11
And I also know it’s not easy and it’s sometimes, it’s just words in the beginning. But yeah, it’s worth starting to look at yourself and just, even if you’re just saying the words you know, I love you. Yeah.

Candice Wu 54:32
Thank you. Yeah.

I really enjoyed this conversation and I feel like one of your strong gifts is your presence, your energy and it’s almost like, felt like, it didn’t even matter what words you were saying even though I love what you did share in the words but the energy of what you’re exuding is just so juicy and I can feel it in your presence. So thank you so much.

Thank you, Candice.

Before we go, Liz, where can people find you?

Liz La Force 55:14
Well, they can find me in the Netherlands but it is a little bit far away for you. You’re very welcome to come over, but, no, they can find my website. It’s www.lizlaforce.com.

Candice Wu 55:31
Okay, wonderful. And we’ll have it on the show notes and everything.

Liz La Force 55:34
Yeah.

Candice Wu 55:34
So they can click there.

Liz La Force 55:36
And I’m, yeah, I’m available for online sessions too. So this doesn’t need to be an obstacle.

Candice Wu 55:44
Okay. They don’t have to literally travel to you.

Liz La Force 55:47
I will travel to them. Yeah.

Candice Wu 55:51
Thank you, Liz.

Liz La Force 55:52
Okay. Have a lovely day.

Candice Wu 55:55
Yes, you too. You too, Liz.

Thank you so much, Liz for being on the show. I just feel so refreshed by your energy and your radiance and just what comes through so clearly and purely. And I hope that all of you out there are getting something from this transmission of energy that Liz brings.

Be sure to tune into Liz’s meditation this week. Her meditation is an active one created for you to experience the joy of free self-expression. So enjoy this light-hearted and playful exercise that she brings you into, where you are the boss, you are the master in her words, and where you can help the cells of your body remember their own light and true capacity to love and receive love. Those are Liz’s words. They’re just lovely. So tune in later this week. You can also find her meditation at CandiceWu.com/lizlaforce.

Well, it’s so great to have you here, and thank you so much for listening.

Next week, I’ll talk a lot more about what’s happening with me, what I’m doing in Mexico, and what else is coming up.

If you’d like to stay in touch with me through my newsletter, you can sign up at CandiceWu.com/embody. And that’s where I give some updates about my travels, self-love notes, different workshops and experientials, events, etc., and also the updates about the podcast.

As we close today, I want to just send a shout out to all of you out there that are listening. All of you that are a friend of a friend of someone who shared this podcast with you or, if you’re therapist shared this with you, if you stumbled upon it yourself, thank you so much for being out there existing and for listening.

I love hearing your feedback, you can always feel free to email me.

And recently, I was just so delighted to hear that there are people in Wuhan, China listening in. Thank you for being out there and sending you all the well wishes for your health, for all of your loved ones to be safe and I am seeing and noticing what’s happening from here. With that, I will wish you a wonderful week and see you next week on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00
In this meditation, Liz Laforce, a guest on the podcast, encourages you to dance, sing, or do some art after this lovely, deepening meditation.

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love. My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

This is an active meditation created for you to experience the joy of free self-expression. So enjoy this light-hearted and playful exercise and also feel free to tune into the full Episode with Liz, who is such an authentic, present being, you can find the full episode at CandiceWu.com/lizlaforce. And with that, I will hand you over to Liz.

Liz La Force 1:14
Welcome. When you’ve listened to the podcast I recorded with Candice, you may probably have noticed already that I love to create spaces. Space to feel free enough to express ourselves, express myself and there are certain forms I like to use for them and it’s dance or singing or painting and that’s what I want to do with you today too.

So, I will start a meditation with you in a couple of minutes. But I would like you to choose one of the three options. So dancing, singing, or painting to do after the meditation just to express your soul and to really connect with your self-expression.

I will explain a little bit more about how this could work for you.

So, the dancing, when you’ve chosen that, just after the meditation, get up, or if you’re already up, just start moving your body, put some music on if you want or do it without but just the loud movements your body wants to make to come up. And be aware of how it feels, perhaps you’re feeling tension, perhaps you’re feeling totally relaxed because of course, you have done the meditation, but whatever you feeling is okay, just allow it to be there without the need to change it but continue to move.

In the beginning, this can feel awkward or strange, but you will notice that at a certain moment, you can come in a certain flow and it will be a lot of fun.

So that’s for the dancing, and then, when you feel more like singing, after the meditation, start to sing or simply make sounds.

It doesn’t even matter if you are a singer or if you’re talented at it, just start to sing any song you know, improvise, make new lyrics, make sounds, it’s all about free expression. There’s no good or bad involved. There is no judgments, although perhaps judgmental thoughts will come up but just allow them to be there and observe them, take notice and allow them to go again.

This is a great help by the way, for your throat chakra to really open up and to enable you to feel freer to self-expression.

And then the last option is painting.

For this, you need a white paper, some paint or color pencils and then after the meditation, just pick a color, pick a pencil and start making stripes and perhaps it will end up in just only stripes and colors and perhaps it will take a form. But this is about your soul expressing itself. And so, allow anything that wants to come on paper to come out, be playful.

And, certainly have fun while doing all these things. You can choose one of them, you can of course try them all out. If you repeat a meditation, that’s all up to you.

And again, it may take a while for you to get really into this, but give it time and give yourself a break when it doesn’t feel natural in the beginning, and that’s normal. I mean, we all come from a background where, well at least most of us, weren’t really supported in self-expression and we were judged or we will learn to judge ourselves on it. So, it takes time to overcome that hurdle to really loosen up and to disconnect us from these old memories, and to feel free enough to just do like a child, like when we were children and we weren’t yet, well I must say, poisoned by all these judgments or ideas how we are supposed to be.

So in a short while, I will start the meditation.

If you are into the painting option, perhaps you can just stop this meditation and started again. So you can get some paper and some pencils. But for those who have chosen to dance and sing, they can continue to listen and we will start the meditation in a few moments. I will just give you some time to set up perhaps how to put away furniture and set up your things.

And for the meditation you can either lay down or sit it’s up to you, as long as your feet are next to each other and your arms are next to your body or into your lap.

So if you can just sit or lay down, I will start a meditation now. Just feel your body in the chair or on the grounds, become aware of your body. Either laying on the ground or sitting in the chair. You can put your hands for a moment on your belly and start to breathe towards the belly. If you’re not able to, that’s okay too, but just see how deep you can bring your breath. Pushing the hands up and allowing them to go down while breathing out.

It can help to breathe through the nose in and out, through the mouth. Find your body already going into relaxation because the mind can only do one thing. So if we start to focus on the breath, that’s where the mind will be. And if the mind calms down, the whole body calms down.

Just breathe in and out a couple of times very consciously, and then start to bring your attention to your feet, your feet and your toes. Let’s bring the attention towards the feet and the toes and if your mind is going to wander off, just bring it back to your feet. You’re the boss, you’re the master. And then internally, just say feet, relax and move on to your legs, gaining the muscles in the legs, coming away of the knees, thighs, just concentrate and focus on your legs without the need or necessity to change anything.

Just being the observer, allowing your body to relax deeper and deeper and then move on to your pelvis, a place where we hide a lot of old information, old pain. The attention and the love going towards this place is very welcome.

And then move on to your belly, aware of the intestines, while your body’s relaxing and relaxing deeper and deeper.

And then move on to your chest, bring your attention to your heart, perhaps feeling any tension or perhaps feeling that is totally open, all is fine, all is good. Everything’s allowed to be here.

And then from the heart, we bring our attention to the back, your spine, and the shoulder blades, sinking deeper and deeper into relaxation. Allowing the body by concentrating, bring focus, attention, and love to it, and find his own way into relaxation.

There’s really nothing we need to do and to bring our attention and love towards it.

Then we move on with our attention to the arms, the elbows, hands, and fingers. Going deeper and deeper into relaxation. Perhaps your body’s feeling heavier.

Finally, we’ll get our attention to our neck and head.

Notice our body is really entered in this relaxation modus, you visualize above your head above your crown a golden light. And this golden light enters the crown and starts to fill up your brain cells, your senses, the eyes, the nose, the mouth, the ears. All of it is going to be filled up with his golden light I mean clean stain-cleared.

From any old information no longer needed in the brain cells or in the senses. Helping the cells to remember their own lights, their capacity. It’s a true capacity that goes way beyond what we’re using.

And then the golden light enters the neck and goes into the chest and enters the heart and starts to fill up all the cells in the heart, as the cleaning cleans the whole heart’s remembering its capacity to love, and to receive love… opening and up, you can receive even more love and gave me some more love and it has been doing until now.

Then when the heart is totally filled up, the light starts to spread over the chest into the arms, all the way down into the fingertips.

Every cell is going to be filling up, built up with the golden lights.

Your arms and hands and fingers can be used again for your self-expression, to put your love into action.

Then the golden light goes into the belly, fills up the intestines and the organs, clearing, cleansing them from all the inflammation no longer needed to be there. So you can reconnect with your power, the power that can be found in our belly.

Strength, vitality.

Then the golden light goes into the pelvis into the legs, all the way down to the feet and the toes.

Again, cleansing and clearing the cells, filling them up with golden light. Making it easier for you to stand, stand up, for standing your own truth, and to walk your own path, to know your purpose, find your way on this planet.

Then the golden light goes up the base of the spine and starts to curl up around the spine, all the way up to the shoulder blades filling up all cells in the back. Cleansing and cleaning them, bring golden light into them, allowing you to feel the support. The support of the universe, of your guidance, the people around you, the support you need to feel.

Feel free to express yourself. Feel safe. Feel loved.

And then finally the golden light enters the neck and the head, and your whole body is now glowing with golden light, vibrating. Perhaps you can feel it. Whatever you’re feeling is okay. No good and bad involved.

Just for a couple of minutes, allow this golden light to really integrate into your system, into the cells.

While the golden light is integrating, you can ask your soul, your higher self, what it would like to express through you today and to invite it to express itself through you to give it the allowance to express itself through you or it needs your: “Yes”.

And then when you feel ready, just stand up and start the dancing, start singing or do the painting and enjoy it, allow this energy to just flow through your body and to just start to make the movements, to start to make the sounds, start to make the stripes on the paper.

Just go for it and allow it and enjoy it. Enjoy the fact that you are alive. Enjoy the fact that this energy is always available for you each day, every day, every moment of the day.

Wishing you a lot of fun and thank you for listening.

Candice Wu 20:42
So as you transition from this meditation, to some self-expression of your choice, I want to thank you for joining us and thank Liz for offering this experience.

Thanks so much and again, you can tune into the full episode with Liz at CandiceWu.com/lizlaforce.

Candice Wu 0:00

In this podcast, we have Nick Werber back on the show, yay! In this episode, we talk all about intention setting and the process that brings in our lives, what it means and how to move through, as well as where our family systems intentions, our ancestries’ intentions come in, and how to respect those.

Candice Wu 0:22

Find out if Nick and I are the black sheep of our families and whether there’s a black sheep in you.

Candice Wu 0:30

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love. My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:06

The podcast is supported by so many of you out there listening and people who either quietly donate some money or give their feedback and their encouragement. Thank you all so much. And if you’d like to support the podcast in a more specific way, there are two options right now that are very interesting. You can sign up for a periodic personal meditation that I record personally for you based on your intentions and based on my intuition of what you’re sharing and what might be needed. And that can be a one time experience, an mp3 that I send to you, or a gift to somebody, or by subscription where you get that periodically.

Candice Wu 1:53

Or, if you’re interested in something that has more connection and contact with me, you can join my Embodied Group healing call. These very small groups offer a compassionate and embodied soul support space for anything you’re going through in life. So if you’d like to learn more about that, feel free to go to my website at CandiceWu.com/support.

Candice Wu 2:19

Following this episode will be a special recording by Michael Picucci of an adaptation of Bert Hellinger’s writing. So Michael Picucci is Nick Werber’s mentor and friend and fellow healer. And he speaks about him in the first episode that we have together that we recorded together last year and in this episode, so you can hear a little bit more about Michael Picucci and Bert Hellinger is the founder of Family Constellations.

Candice Wu 2:52

Both of these beautiful people and healers passed away last year and so what a lovely experience to have this on the podcast for all of you to experience. And, Nick was such a close person to Michael, that he’s offered to share this on the podcast and knows that Michael would really love for others to experience it. The offering in this meditation is called consenting and it’s lovely to inspire, bringing consent to people around you, situations, agreeing to what’s happening, and what your human experience is, such that it brings new possibilities or allows ease and brings the next unfolding. So be sure to tune into that later this week or following this episode, depending on when you tune in. And without further ado, here is Nick.

Candice Wu 3:58

Not really sure how to jump in Nick, this is your second time on the podcast. It’s so cool to have you here.

Nick Werber 4:04

Yeah, I’m really excited to be back again. I know, you know, since last week did that first podcast I’ve gotten, it’s surprising. It’s people, you know, every so often. It’s like, “Oh, I found you through, you know, Candice Wu and I love Candice.” So, I’m really excited to be back because, yeah, a lot of people love that first one, at least they tell me, so.

Candice Wu 4:27

Yeah, I get a lot of great feedback from it, too. And people really have enjoyed what you have to say, and enjoyed our conversation, and some people could just feel like that we were friends. And that’s so true. I just so appreciate you, Nick.

Candice Wu 4:43

And the first podcast we did was maybe about a year and a half ago. And for those of you who haven’t listened to it, or maybe want to review, it’s at Candicewu/nick and it’s also on your website. Right, Nick?

Nick Werber 5:02

True. I think it is. Yeah.

Candice Wu 5:04

At nwerber.com. And, Nick, can you just tell the listeners out there a little bit about who you are and what you do, just as a refresher?

Nick Werber 5:17

Sure.

Nick Werber 5:19

So, I call myself, you know, the label that I use as an integrative coach and a healer. And really, what that means to me is that I just, I pull in many different modalities into my work. And some of the big ones are Family Constellations work, which is all about, you know, this work of how so much of what we’re facing and experiencing didn’t start with us. You know that the context that we live in, has a huge effect on who we are so that can apply to family. It can also apply to our nation and our culture as well as our, actually our ancestral history of these things that long tail of history actually has a real effect on who we are.

Nick Werber 6:08

And then for me, all my work is really on this, founded on this bedrock of somatic trauma work, specifically a modality called focalizing. Which is, you know, really just the best practices I think of any time you’re working with trauma, that overwhelm is the enemy and you might hear this just in the way that I speak and the way I approach things is that just I think the best healing is done in this very stable, gentle space where people can feel safe and, you know, in addition to that, I also have a bunch of training and hypnosis.

Nick Werber 6:49

Sometimes the way I say it is that you know, the work is, all of it is focused on, you know, we have these very deep, unconscious parts of ourselves, as far as we know, we might only use somewhere between 1 to 3% of our brain and consciously, I’m sorry, only 1 –3 percent of our mind is conscious. And so all the work I do is really about working with the unconscious and how God affects so much of what we’re experiencing.

Candice Wu 7:22

Beautiful.

Candice Wu 7:24

And, Nick, I think I told you this before, but someone recently told me that you and I could have been brother and sister in a past life or siblings. And that just makes so much sense to me on many levels, which I’m not going to get into now, totally, but that just feels true in some ways, we’re like siblings in this healing, embodied work, and that’s part of what I so value about your work, how much of the experience in the process that you bring forward, that I love as well, and do my own versions of. But I also deeply value the way that you use your language and words to key into very important and relevant topics that we’re all dealing with in some fashion that get people, it like creeps in sideways in new ways, fresh, very refreshing way of speaking and writing that leave an echo in me. So thank you.

Nick Werber 8:49

Yeah, it’s an addition to the practice. I’m absolutely a writer at heart and love writing about the subject and I love that we were brother and sister in a past life. I believe it. I’m sorry, I interrupted you maybe in that past life I, you know, as an older brother, maybe I spoke over you I don’t know.

Candice Wu 9:12

Well, what I was told specifically was that in the past life, I always lived in your shadow. And I felt like, I could never like, come out of the shadow next to you. And so I was struggling with the feelings of like not being good enough in relation to you and always trying to win at that game but never winning.

Nick Werber 9:39

Oh God, it is sad.

Candice Wu 9:41

It is sad.

Nick Werber 9:45

I’m sorry.

Candice Wu 9:46

No. Yeah, you better be.

Nick Werber 9:49

Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:52

And just for all of you listening out there, the reason this came up was that, I, and I think I told you, Nick, I would read your posts and then I would just get, I would feel so, like, jealous to the point of feeling bad about myself, not the kind of jealousy that says, “ooh, this is exciting, this challenges me to grow,” which is probably more where I am at this point. But when I was getting triggered by your wonderful post, I was like, I’m not enough and like, now I need to be doing what Nick’s doing and I need to write like that and I could hear myself and I was like, “Why? Why am I? Why?”

Candice Wu 10:41

So it really helps to bring that into the light and for the emotions to move around it. But yeah, stop speaking over me, Nick. You hardly do that. No. You were just saying before we started recording that this is a totally different experience already and I’d love for you to share why with everyone.

Nick Werber 11:11

Well, last time, basically, I think we spent the first half an hour after we connected just working on why the microphone was so loud. And I, you know, I live in New York City and so there’s always some kind of construction or weirdness. Like, even this call I, you know, this podcast, I purposely asked you to do earlier in the afternoon, because when it gets close to two or three, there’s going to be school buses outside my window, you know, backing up and beeping and all that.

Candice Wu 11:39

The beeping yup. And you’ve got your mic from back in the day when you used to record music.

Nick Werber 11:46

That’s true. Yes. Yeah. I have the microphone that NPR uses and it’s really beautiful, and I pulled it out of the closet and it was dusty and there was something sitting on it so the phone is all deformed, but it sounds good.

Nick Werber 12:05

Yeah.

Candice Wu 12:08

Well, I made a big mistake, Nick, when you emailed me last night about some of the topics you wanted to talk about today on the show, I read it at 10 pm, your email and I, and then I couldn’t sleep for like four hours. So it’s really all your fault. I mean, that I read the email. Yeah, it was like 10 pm and I’m reading your email, and you’re bringing up the topics that you’re interested in, so I’ll just say some of them because I think they’re fabulous and that is what kept me up until like, two in the morning because I was just like thinking about these topics and your thoughts about them and so excited to hear from you about intention and the intersection of family and family history in regards to our intention, or how they weave in, what we reject and what we resist and how that impacts us and stays with us. You wanted to talk about the beautiful mystery and meaning behind who were born to in this life and what that we’re alive perspective can look like versus a dead perspective. And, then a little bit about narcissists versus empath relationships and black sheep, and also this misnomer of letting go of something or letting, letting things go. So, yes, obviously.

Nick Werber 13:42

When you put it like that, now it’s like, “Whoa, that’s a lot!”

Candice Wu 13:45

Right? I was like, boom, my head was like, Okay, yeah, I get it. Also, it was like getting back in the game of life after the holidays and I kind of just went into a cave.

Candice Wu 14:00

So before we jump in, you know, I was wondering, some of the words I wrote down for myself yesterday when I was just gathering myself trying to come back into my regular sort of schedule, as regular as that can be. But some of the words I wrote down were cave, because that was emerging cave and emerging out of the cave, surrender, the need for trust, clarity, but also not knowing at the same time, and then beauty and quiet. And I wonder, Nick, what words are popping up for you in your experience of life at the moment?

Nick Werber 14:41

I think flow is one, shame is another, connection, and I think the word, it’s almost like, expanse comes up because I feel, you know, I, as you know, Candice, I got married in September this past year and there’s, you know, so much an event like that kind of focuses you in such a powerful way. And, you know, right afterward it’s kind of holiday season comes through and now I feel like there’s this sort of expanse so now what do I do with the rest of my life?

Candice Wu 15:24

With the rest of your life? Yeah.

Candice Wu 15:26

It’s like, that’s a huge expanse. Yeah, I can imagine, right? Like having a wedding, you said focuses you so much. It’s like all your energies seem to culminate to that moment and all the people in your life at least from what I, you know what I saw of your wedding, and then coming into this I don’t know, quiet space or open space.

Nick Werber 15:26

Exactly.

Nick Werber 16:01

It’s open, and it’s playful. It’s like, I choose my adventure now. And I mean, I chose my adventure before too, but you choose it and then everything becomes very singularly focused. I feel now there’s a little bit more playfulness with each day, I can choose my adventure. And it doesn’t always have to relate to a particular goal either.

Candice Wu 16:25

Sounds really nice. I like that.

Nick Werber 16:28

Yeah, it is nice.

Candice Wu 16:29

Yeah. And then you said shame, connection. And there’s one other word I just forgot the first word.

Nick Werber 16:39

I think flow.

Candice Wu 16:40

Flow. That’s right. Yeah, do you want to say any more about this before we tune into the topics we have for today?

Nick Werber 16:48

You know, I feel like they’re going to come through in whatever we talk about. Because you know, I think speaking like this is a co-creative process. and whatever is living within us in this moment comes through. I’m borrowing a little bit from writers that I like and I recently a little bit of a tangent but I’ve been watching a little bit of Mad Men again and then interested in Matthew Weiner and you know, he basically said it’s every episode is what he was experiencing, you know when he wrote it. I think that’s true for most creation.

Candice Wu 17:31

Yeah, that makes sense. Where the energy comes through somewhere. So yeah, speaking of, oh, what were you going to say?

Nick Werber 17:41

I was going to say, I think I feel a sense that I’d like to talk about intention a little bit because it is, you know, new year’s time and it’s just so, I think it’s top of mind for so many people right now.

Candice Wu 17:54

Yeah, I was feeling that too. Yeah, did you create an intention for the year or for this time frame?

Nick Werber 18:01

I created several intentions and, you know, I found it actually reminded me how much I love intention that for me when I’m just working, kind of getting through my day doing tasks on a, you know, an hourly or a weekly basis, you know, whatever that kind of goal-line is, I start to lose track of meaning. You know, I feel like I’m kind of floating and I’m not sure where I’m going or, you know, maybe people relate to this where you just kind of realized, like, why am I doing this actually. And intention, I think, sitting down and actually writing down you know, here’s what I think is a life well spent, my time well spent and it’s not that I didn’t create a bucket list it was, you know, my intentions are a little bit more short term than that, but there’s just something very powerful to collecting yourself and in writing down, you know, here’s what I think is a good use of my time, here’s what I want to give to other people, here’s what I want to receive, and I couldn’t believe how much better I felt when I just did that simple process.

Candice Wu 19:27

Yeah, it’s, to me that’s actually such a playful process too, it’s like, I get this chance to gather myself and see what does feel meaningful and to clarify it. And I have felt that power of not just the writing down, but for me, I can use visioning like, seeing it in my mind and kind of carving out that vision in my mind that it’s not always so cut and dry like, I’m going to look at a vision of what I desire, what I’m looking forward into. But it’s this feeling sense that comes with seeing bits and pieces of where things are going for me and, or where I’d like them to go and it’s really fun. It’s like playing with consciousness, playing with myself.

Nick Werber 20:22

And I think when I hear you say that, you’re getting at something that I think is very important about intention, which is that intention is really supported when we find ways of moving beyond our just goal setting, kind of thinking mind. And so visioning is one way, when I do it, intention setting, I really tap into my body awareness quite a bit. And so it’s, you know, I think we have so much intelligence that is beyond our task-oriented mind and that intelligence is so important when it comes to, I think finding intentions that are valuable to us and valuable to the world and, you know, knowing, like you said, seeing what’s emerging ahead of you.

Candice Wu 21:14

I love that and when you say you use your body awareness and your body intelligence, what exactly do you do?

Nick Werber 21:24

So I actually have been playing with and this is what I used and this most recent intention setting process, a very specific way of working with body awareness, which is that I sit and I write the intentions, one intention per piece of paper. And then I actually put them out on the floor, and then stand on each one and embody the intention. And I’m sure this will sound very familiar to Candice in terms of Family Constellation process. You just step into the intention. Just close your eyes, tune in, and I do this with my clients as well. And it’s amazing how quickly just you get that little sense of Ooh, that’s, you know, it’s not the next five years, it’s actually in the next ten years I’d like to receive this or, maybe, you know, you start to suddenly get really strong senses of the wording of what you wrote. And, if you just connect with your body a little bit, you can feel, am I feeling contracted here? Am I feeling expanded here? Does it feel like a yes, does it feel like a no. And so that’s, I like things that get you up off the couch and connecting with things. Not only, you know, in your mind’s eye, but also in a physical way.

Candice Wu 22:45

Yeah, it brings more of us into the picture, alive into the experience. I love that.

Nick Werber 22:56

You know, this is, I have to give a little bit of a nod to one of my teachers, a person named Dr. Michael Pecucci, but he would say at this time, in a conversation like this, that we should set an intention for this conversation.

Candice Wu 23:14

Okay. We are.

Nick Werber 23:17

And I just thought that came to me it’s maybe a good idea.

Candice Wu 23:22

Okay. Yeah, why don’t we take a moment and feel that? Yeah.

Nick Werber 23:41

That’s funny that you said feeling because it definitely feels like a feeling to me actually.

Candice Wu 23:47

What are you getting?

Nick Werber 23:51

So, to me, the intention, and just for kind of our listeners, so there’s the intention that we might think we want to have at the end. But there’s a level of intention that’s kind of, it’s like, what already is there, asking to be connected to.

Nick Werber 24:08

And so that’s what the second part is what I’m speaking to when I say this, that for me, when I just think about the intention for this conversation, there is a fullness in my body. It feels like this feeling that I get when I’m like, wow, I listened to something that I’m going to be thinking about for a couple days and processing and referencing and it’s kind of that feeling of, I’m glad I spent time doing that.

Candice Wu 24:36

I love what you said, like what is already there and asking to be connected to and I find that when I tune in that way and listen, it’s a more aligned intention, like it emerges, it reveals itself. It’s already living. And yeah, I love the feeling that you’re bringing up the fullness, the feeling of the listening to something here.

Candice Wu 25:15

I got the words, being extremely honest with myself and outward, outwardly. And then also playing with the ideas that the concepts that we have put on the table like playing with you, Nick. And I think in your email to me about these topics you said, feel free to disagree or feel free to, you know, argue with this or something. And I was like, Yeah, I’m going to, let’s see what happens. And I could you know, we, just the idea of play and curiosity and what emerges out of that sort of challenge to on both sides, I think, but as more of a collaborative play.

Nick Werber 26:12

It’s, you know, it’s serendipitous almost that you know, honest and being outward, it’s funny, I, my partner Jen was sitting in our kitchen and I was talking about this podcast a little bit. I said to her that I think I’m going to be a little edgier this time. And I’m just going to say what I feel and, you know, maybe it might turn some people off. I don’t know.

Candice Wu 26:37

Bring it on.

Nick Werber 26:41

Yeah exactly.

Candice Wu 26:42

Yeah, I want to play with that, the edginess? Cool. So do we have our intention? Or was that just more, was it? I didn’t know if I heard a specific intention from you or just a feeling you’d like to experience. Is that? Am I getting it right?

Nick Werber 27:02

It was a little bit nebulous. I think the intention is to share something, both between you and I, that provides a sense of fullness provides a sense of, you know, a gift that you can sit with and play with, even, you know, for a time after this conversation and then I’m including the third player in the room, you know, the audience that maybe they can experience something that they can play with and sit with them, digest for a few days that gives them a sense of fullness as well.

Candice Wu 27:43

Yes, thank you for clarifying that. That’s great.

Candice Wu 27:48

And just inviting people to play with, play with these topics and disagree with us, or find where there’s a new opening and you know, I’m just saying that out loud because that also helps me do that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Michael Picucci as well.

Nick Werber 28:11

Yeah.

Candice Wu 28:14

And just honoring him.

Nick Werber 28:19

He’s a major inspiration for everything I do. Funny, you know, on his website, when he was alive, it would, you know, you’d see Ph.D. psychologist but if you met him, he was very just quick to laugh with a very raspy voice, flamboyant gay man, who was a shaman and an energy worker, and you know, I think of him almost as the archetype of the Joker. You know, the one that kind of laughs and tells jokes but if you really think about what he’s saying deeply it’s, maybe the most honest, most real person in the room and a lot of ways. So there’s my little nod to Michael. Thank you, Michael.

Candice Wu 29:12

I wish I had the opportunity to meet him in person.

Candice Wu 29:18

So, intention, what comes up as you play with the concept or the idea of intention?

Nick Werber 29:34

What’s sitting with me about intention? You know, I have this community of healers and intuitive people that I love that are around me and both connected to them online and through some of the workshop spaces and communities here in Brooklyn that I’m in and everyone’s talking about intention. And I think the thing that for me, you know, I don’t think it’s touched on enough that I’d love. I think it’s helpful to acknowledge that, you know, intention is a process.

Nick Werber 30:11

When we set intentions, It’s not just that we write something down, and then we put it away in a shelf. And, you know, we hope sometime a year from now it’s going to end up on our doorstep.

Nick Werber 30:26

For me, and in my experience, and from my clients experience, it’s an active process. And one of the clearest ways that it’s very, really active is that I believe the moment you set an intention, what you’re really doing is saying, I’m ready to see what’s been standing in the way all along.

Nick Werber 30:48

You know, when you say, I want to find a relationship or I want to be making more money, it’s incredible how you know in the next few weeks or months people suddenly are playing in that shadow we stuff, those barriers that have been around for a really long time, that are directly related to these topics and, and I see that actually as a positive, it’s kind of, you know, whatever you want to call it. And, you know, universal intelligence or just the way the universe works is that it puts, it brings a barrier too and then it’s like, okay, now here’s your work. Now bring in your resources, you know who’s maybe, it’s a therapist or healer that you work with or just being a part of your community. You know, you have to resource yourself and actually go through it.

Nick Werber 31:44

For Christmas, I just got to my partner purchase me a sweater that says, “the only way around is through”

Candice Wu 31:54

Nice reminder…

Nick Werber 31:56

Yes, and that’s what this is. He set the intention to see the barrier and I think people don’t realize that happens. And so when they find the barriers, you know, when they come up against suddenly like, it just feels so hopeless and there’s so much doubt or I feel so much fear to go out and do that thing that I want to do, you start to, they might start to think, oh, maybe that’s a sign that it’s not really meant for me or you know, this isn’t going to happen or it’s not the right time. And it’s like no, like that, there it is, like you are now being given the exact wall you have to chip away at and your intentions on the other side of it.

Nick Werber 32:39

So I think what I want to, if there’s one thing people take away from this conversation, it’s that, to see intention as a process and to not be discouraged by the barriers, because that’s exactly what that processes, I believe meant to do is to bring up the barriers

Candice Wu 33:00

Yeah, I’m ready to see what’s been standing in the way all along. I love the words you expressed about that, it’s just such a nice statement. And we don’t always think about that exact position or approach when we’re creating something or like listening or creating something we want for ourselves.

Candice Wu 33:26

And I just think it’s such an important thing what you’re bringing up because, yes, so often, I’ve seen it in myself and clients everywhere. We find the resistance, the thing that scares us the most about it, and then we turn around and think, well, maybe that’s just not where we’re supposed to go because it’s scary or because it’s going to bring us some discomfort or let us look at something that we have not wanted to look at perhaps, and I see exactly what you’re saying too, in the way that barrier comes up and says, okay, you want this, you know, you want what’s behind this. You need this to come along. This barrier is the place where you’ve resisted or avoided, there’s an energy here and when you transmute this, when you transform or look through, go through it, as you say, instead of around it, that energy will come with you and support you in the end if you make it through. And we need it, we need it to go forward into the next thing. We need that expansiveness because that’s what we wanted to begin with. It’s going to bring us more. Thank you for bringing that forward.

Nick Werber 34:55

It’s almost like to give yourself credit. You know?

Candice Wu 34:58

Yes.

Nick Werber 34:59

There’s a reason you might not be making a million dollars a year, it’s because it takes hard, there’s a lot, there’s hard work, there are barriers there, there’s a lot to bust through. Now, if you come from a poor family, you’re leaving behind whole generations of a certain way of life. You know, it’s if you want that, if you want that intention, if you want to connect to that intention, there are some barriers you have to bust through and you know, that takes work. And so it makes sense that you maybe hadn’t connected to it yet. Again, you need the energy, you need the resources to be able to do that.

Candice Wu 35:41

Yeah, that just made me think, well, maybe that’s why people goal set instead of intention set? Because, I mean, maybe it also has a crossover, you know, even when we goal set there’s something that’s going to come up… but for people out there that are like FUI to intentions, like, I don’t want to deal with intentions or I’m not doing that. I’m giving yourself credit. Yeah, that it can be scary to set an intention because of the wave of things that might come in succession after that, on the pathway towards what you’re looking at.

Nick Werber 36:23

Exactly. And that’s why, you know, it’s also beautiful that if you set a really big intention and you’re not ready for it, you can stop.

Candice Wu 36:31

Yeah.

Nick Werber 36:32

You know?

Candice Wu 36:32

Yeah.

Nick Werber 36:32

You can take a pause.

Candice Wu 36:35

Yeah, I just love this. I have this image in my mind of a child, you know, I mean, I’ve been there standing on the edge of like a step and feeling like I want to jump down three steps. You know, I’ve done two. I’m going to jump three steps now. And I have this, I guess, maybe this is sort of archetypal image of an adult or someone older, saying just do it, go, just go. And like kind pushing you to go with their energy and with their encouragement. But there’s something incredibly beautiful about standing there on the edge and finding from within your own sense of I’m ready, or I’m ready to take the jump, and I don’t know what it’s going to bring doesn’t mean I’m ready and this is going to be easy. But that sort of leaning forward and being like, oh, maybe not, and kind of leaning back and playing at that edge, instead of just bypassing that and jumping without some sort of internal choice.

Candice Wu 37:52

And a friend mentioned to me this video, which I still haven’t seen, but I’ve been meaning to and I’ll link it to our show notes. I think this artist just recorded people at a diving board like high dive, and they were doing that, they would come to the edge. And some people would turn around and just never come back. And some people would like to stand there for an hour or something or like a period of time and go forward and back and maybe make the dive but it wasn’t really even about the dive I think. It’s just the process of us being human and being in that experience.

Nick Werber 38:36

And I think that I actually have seen that diving board video. So funny. YouTube is sort of my little guilty pleasure when I have downtime, so I’ve found it somehow. But to follow that metaphor a little bit, you know, I find with intention setting, we set an intention, or I set an intention and then it becomes, you know, okay, I started to receive it, you know, for instance, I had intentions about working with more and more people in group settings. And so I’m getting these group workshops are coming forward, they’re doing really well. And then it’s like, I recently, in the past year I was off or, in the past few months, I got the opportunity to work into this retreat in Mexico, which I’m sure we’ll talk a little bit more about, but you know, you can hit that moment of suddenly, Whoo, it’s like, it’s a much, it’s a bigger thing, it’s going to be more of a commitment, more of a commitment to the people coming. And then suddenly, it’s like the diving board’s too high. I don’t know about this one.

Candice Wu 39:44

Yeah, I asked way more of you.

Nick Werber 39:47

And I think those are, that’s really common that you get on a roll and it’s like, where’s your, what’s your tolerance and I’m not saying, you know, push through everything either. You know, I respect that tolerance level, that there’s, you know, that’s part of this work. That’s one of the barriers is fear, you know that you might come up against the fear, the fear of success, the fear of, you know, maybe speaking in front of a large audience or, you know, whatever your intentions include.

Candice Wu 40:18

Yeah, and this kind of loops me back to the beginning when you said that we can just get on a roll, or we can be in motion and wonder why we’re doing it or is this what we even wanted? And I think that that’s really challenging, it can be a really challenging place when the bigger thing comes, the bigger diving board or whatever it is, and you’re on the roll of the intention that you once had set. And there’s that place of, Okay, now it’s, I think that diving board is too high or this is really scary. This is a lot and it’s asking a lot of me. And when we feel into that place, it can sometimes mean this is no longer what I wanted or this is, wait, where have I gone? Is this what I wanted? And is it what I want now? And distinguishing that from the fear of the expansion and capacity, what it means to step forward and continue on? That can be a tricky place. Do you find that?

Nick Werber 41:34

Absolutely. When I hear you talk about that, I think we’re really connecting in some way to just the human condition, which is, you know, in some ways, we’re walking down a cave and there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, maybe, but we just have no idea what’s there and what’s ahead of us and there’s a lot of mystery so, absolutely, and, you know, there’s, I think this is also why it’s sometimes very attractive to listen to someone that says they know, that they, you know, they know the answers because we’re, you know, in a sea of mystery all the time being alive in this world, you know, and this doesn’t get you out of that process, but for me, I do think, you know, there’s kind of three ways that I think about working with intention.

Nick Werber 42:34

One is the setting it process, like the planting the seed, writing it down, which can be a really exciting and kind of expansive piece. Then, there’s what we’ve talked about, which is meeting the barriers, which is, can be so shocking how different it feels, it’s like, it was so expansive in the beginning now it’s so friction-filled, and that can kind of discourage people but there’s a piece in between and maybe all around, all of it, where I do think it’s nice to have some sort of practice where you’re connecting to your intentions on a regular basis. And you don’t even have to do it every day. But for me that writing it down and stepping on the sheets of paper, I do that once every other week with my intentions, to just see, you know, how am I feeling now? Is there still kind of a change or anything that needs to be shifted here? How am I sitting with it, just to kind of keep allowing my own intuition, my own body awareness to keep teaching me and showing me new things. But if you know even the most trained somatic healers that spend all their time with body awareness, which I really spend a lot of my time leaning on my body awareness even with my clients, that’s how a lot of my intuition comes through. You know, the body. It speaks in feeling, it’s not in words. And you know, even that, I think is a metaphor. It’s like, so much of the way life speaks to us is it’s the exception is when it’s extremely direct and says, go do this. But a lot of it is, you know, there are messages that are kind of in a gray area and it’s up to us to feel, what feels right for us.

Candice Wu 44:27

I didn’t really set intentions this year.

Nick Werber 44:38

You’re screwed. The way you said it was like you dropped a bomb.

Candice Wu 44:52

All this talk about intentions, and well, I think that as I’m reflecting on myself, that there just been different ways that I’ve worked with the process of intention and setting it and some processes feel more epic than others. And there are times in my life where it feels that it needs a very, almost like a ceremony to set an intention and to create the space for it. And other times of my life, it feels like a quieter process that’s, maybe this is also more along with the evolution of my own capacity and healing. That it feels almost like a part of me, a part of each moment, in fact, that if I had to put words as you eloquently said, you know, this is a feeling, this is an experience. But if I had to put words into the process, it might be something like, where am I right now and what am I feeling? And what do I want to lean into right now in the capacity of who I am like, the state of being that I’m in?

Candice Wu 46:17

And so the words I’d give it right now as far as intention, maybe it’s just going back to what I said in the beginning, surrender, and trust. And I’m not sure if that’s the intention, or if that’s just how I want to be right now, surrendering. And it’s very moment to moment.

Candice Wu 46:38

And I found that in the last couple of months, my astrologer said to me that it was Uranus and the chaos of Uranus, that it brings this unpredictability and changing your mind moment to moment even. What was in this moment can be totally the opposite the next or the next day or the next week, and I have felt that very much in the last couple of months. And so when I have planned too far ahead, for me, it will reveal itself. So I just felt like I’m just not going to waste my time doing that. And that’s very particular to me and my process. I don’t know if other people are relating to that. Maybe if you have the same birth chart as I do. But, surrendering to the moment and going deeper though, not just like to the topical, satisfaction of the moment, but something deeper of, a deeper movement towards the next movement. So in a way, it’s very unknown. It’s just this movement to the next. So yeah, there’s my confession about intention.

Nick Werber 48:00

Candice, I feel what you’re sharing about the way you’re working with intention just makes me think, you know, that is so you, and I think that’s one of the things I really admire about you is the way that you just freefall with spontaneity in so many areas of your life, and that’s brave, that’s awesome, and so it makes sense to me that you’d be saying that and I think in some ways, maybe we represent two different poles around on the subject, and people can take kind of little bits from either of us, because for me, it’s the spontaneity and the free fall. I get kind of lost and the planning really focuses me in this way that increases my effectiveness and, but of course, there are things that are lost.

Candice Wu 48:55

It’s beautiful.

Nick Werber 48:56

And you know, and spontaneity is, so who wouldn’t benefit from embracing a little bit more spontaneity, and I think you really are like a role model for that in a beautiful way.

Candice Wu 49:08

Thank you, Nick. It’s not that I don’t get lost sometimes too, though. But I also, I guess I’m okay with getting a little lost. Maybe that’s the thing.

Nick Werber 49:23

You have a high tolerance for it, maybe it’s a way of saying it.

Candice Wu 49:28

Maybe, but yes, I think you’re right. You know, there’s just a time for all different kinds of tools, and I think the processes you’re bringing up, they’re incredibly powerful, and they do work at times, work I mean, they will open things up and they will, if you follow through, if or I guess I should only speak for myself: when I feel through the resistance, I’ve landed in exactly where I want it to be in a way, but in a place, which I couldn’t even fathom! And on the other hand, I know it somewhere in my body, that’s what I wanted.

Candice Wu 50:10

So yeah, I think just putting up a menu of how we can all approach this thing called human experience, it’s really great. But let’s talk about family and lineage; and what you’re thinking about in terms of how that intersects with intention.

Nick Werber 50:38

Sure. So you know, for people that might not know, it’s really the focus of my practice is around how family and family history are at the root of so much of the barriers that we experience and you know, the way when I speak to this, I’m not really speaking to it from this kind of, maybe like a clinical perspective at it for me, it’s really at this kind of soul level that we’re born to these, this mother and father, you know we were, we might have had older siblings or younger siblings, or no siblings at all, and that becomes this very powerful template that follows us around. You know, the roles that we’ve played with our family, the types of people we were surrounded by, you know, I think I said an example is: if you had a parent that was a narcissist, and one of them was distant; and then… did you try to befriend the narcissist or did you reject them; and try to ally with the distant parent or, you know, the permutations are infinite. But it becomes this bedrock by which so much of what we’ve become, or how we emerge out of our family is so much a reflection, either an acceptance or rejection of where we come from, and why this, I think is relevant into intentions is, I think so many of us are probably aware on some level that our family has intentions too, and that those intentions were pushed on us. You know, and so the maybe the simplest one would be, go be a doctor, be a lawyer, but there it goes deeper than that, and then I’m actually very fortunate, and you know, and it’s actually complicated. When you don’t get this, it’s also confusing, too. But I would lean towards saying, I’m fortunate that I came from a family that the main message I got was just all we want for you is to be happy. I mean, that’s like I am very very thankful that I got that message, and there was not a push to be a certain thing. I didn’t have to be something.

Candice Wu 53:10

Wow!

Nick Werber 53:10

However —

Candice Wu 53:12

Yeah.

Nick Werber 53:13

Yeah, not to be glossed over.

Candice Wu 53:17

Yeah.

Nick Werber 53:17

I mean, that’s a huge deal. Yeah, it’s a big deal.

Candice Wu 53:22

But guess what’s the shadow side of it? What?

Nick Werber 53:24

Completely, yeah, completely shaped my life that I received that message.

Candice Wu 53:29

Yes.

Nick Werber 53:33

One of the shadow sides is, if you’re just supposed to be happy all the time, if that’s the goal, then you’re going to be falling short all the time.

Candice Wu 53:42

Yeah, I wonder —

Nick Werber 53:44

-the whole happiness at all times.

Candice Wu 53:45

All we want for you to is to be happy. Yeah, I didn’t know if it was literally happy, you know, and the pressure to be happy to come with that or if that just meant it was open, but it’s, yeah, sounding like that would create a lot of, we’re much more than just happy in our experience of life.

Nick Werber 54:12

And there’s depression in my family, which is, so obviously what that is a reaction.

Candice Wu 54:18

Now when you say that, yes.

Nick Werber 54:23

And so, you know, so then it becomes, well, what if I don’t, you know, it’s a little bit confusing. So it’s you know, it’s funny how these messages no matter what they are, even if it’s so simple and sounding so innocent… we just want you to be happy. It still gets confusing.

Candice Wu 54:41

And in a way, we could just turn it around and say, and maybe this is where you’re going but seeing that maybe the words were, are more, maybe the words are all I want us to be happy, coming from wherever that came from, but impressed upon you, it’s a totally different experience.

Nick Werber 55:09

Well, Candice, I think you’re nailing it right now, and we’re about to go very deep into my own, you know, constellation, but it’s yes, absolutely. It is, there’s a funny way and I think this can be extrapolated that the desires that our family have for us are so much, obviously a desire to have it, reflect on them in a certain way, and you know, absolutely the message of I just want you to be happy was, if you’re happy, then I can be happy and you know, maybe that will fix things for me and funny enough, me and my sibling were not very happy.

Candice Wu 55:56

That’s just a strange thing.

Candice Wu 56:03

Yeah.

Nick Werber 56:05

Yeah, that has to be earned, and it’s a process but I want to kind of bring it back slightly of our family has intentions for us, sometimes they’re very concrete, we’d like you to do a certain job, we’d like to be a certain type of person, and so when we’re setting our own intentions, that has to be included in our awareness about, you know, what is our intentions and what is our the intentions that we’re carrying, actually for someone else in a way, you know, if I’m happy then if I can do that, then finally maybe my mom can be happy.

Nick Werber 56:43

And so there’s a piece of that, that needs to be respected, and there’s also another part of intentions that I think is really important which is that anytime we change in a way that we are leaving this fear of where we come from, you know, you want to make a million dollars, and no one in your family ever did that, you are breaking through a barrier there that you know you are you’re part of this family consciousness and you’re leaving it, and so there is an element of guilt that comes with that. Whether you’re aware of it or not, that sometimes when we connect to our intentions and we’re creating change in our life, there’s a part of it where we are leaving something behind, you know, that’s change and in any form, you know, to connect to something new, you’re always in a way leaving something behind, and so that factors into our intention setting to —

Candice Wu 57:50

Absolutely!

Nick Werber 57:51

-where we come from, you know, what we emerged in within our family.

Candice Wu 57:58

Now, I feel this conversation is flowing two ways in my mind at the moment. Looking at our own intentions, and I love what you said about respecting the pieces that may connect with an inheritance or with other people in our life, or maybe given to us just respecting that versus you saying, no, that’s a bad intention then right? To give that up or change that, but just respecting, just honoring it, is just such a lovely approach you’re bringing.

Nick Werber 58:41

Well, and maybe the way of adding to that would be to say, you know, just because our parents wanted something for us, doesn’t mean it’s bad, and this starts to get into, you know, after working with many different people of different family backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds, you know, I feel very strongly that the family we’re born into is this incredible, it’s a wealth of information, it’s a huge teacher for all of us, and even if you disagree with the pieces of what they shared with you, there’s, you know, they still taught you how to tie your shoes and maybe cook. You know, there’s a million basic things that come across from a family that, you know, doesn’t matter how much you reject or how much you disagree with you. You’ve taken from them.

Candice Wu 59:46

Yeah. Absolutely, and there’s so much conversation in the world event, intention setting about getting to the why or understanding why you’re choosing that, and I think that’s very important and it’s part of what you’re bringing forward in this conversation, is what are the pieces that influence, the reason that you want this or you know, whether that’s personal family or other, any other systems you’re part of or if you believe in past lives, but here we’re speaking about family, and when you said just because parents wanted something for us, doesn’t mean it’s bad. I feel if we also get to the why of like, they wanted to be a doctor say, or they wanted you to just stay in the lines and not make a mess and not stick out, that there’s a why underneath that, and we can really get to that essential love that they wanted for us, and I can’t assume that’s for many people are all people, but it’s in my experience that lives underneath it, that there’s something underneath in the undercurrent of that more topical message that people have gotten, that says, well, we really just wanted you to be safe or we really just wanted you to be yourself or be happy or which, as we’re talking about comes with all sorts of stuff, but there’s something else underneath it that we can look at as well.

Nick Werber 1:01:41

You’re totally right, and I think safety is especially the big word and that brings up for me, you know, something that Suzi said, Suzi Tucker, our shared teacher, about this subject. You know, Suzi had been talking about the just ancestral component of Jewish culture across the world, and where you know how the history of persecution is affected people today, and you know, one of her, she always says these things are always like an aside, all the best, and then it’s like, whoa, I need to write that down, and what she would say is that in the shadow of the Holocaust and how many people were lost, it’s there’s many, obviously, Jewish families that push their children to become doctors, lawyers, bankers, and she put it, she said, you know, what’s the common thread line between so many of these career paths? It’s that there they are central, they are needed. Your society can’t work without them, and you know, when you think about the genocide, it’s like, how do you become necessary in the world? And I think that’s a really clear example of how ancestral history affects family on a really, you know, the macro affects the micro, but this is happening across all cultures and with all different kinds of histories that the past influences exactly what our mothers are telling us today.

Candice Wu 1:03:31

Absolutely, how do you become necessary in the world? That hits somewhere deep.

Candice Wu 1:03:43

So the thought I was going to say about looking into directions, like looking at the family in the past, and looking at what’s been carried through the generations and how that comes into our intentions and looking forward also in the other direction, well maybe it’s the same, but I had an experience where someone told me if you do want to have children, make sure you don’t do it because of wanting to give your children a different experience than you got, and I was like, yeah, of course, and then I was like, oh yeah, of course. Because actually, the thought that came next was, well, then what would the reason be?

Candice Wu 1:04:34

And there was this part of me that couldn’t think of what would be a good reason. Like, how do I verbalize what would be a good reason? How is it clear enough from the reactions of myself or from the reactions of my ancestry? And that was a little tricky, and what I got too was just for love and experiencing, allowing someone to come into life through me, but that they’re completely free to be however they want to be, and that was really hard to, in some ways, articulate it clear enough, you know, because wanting your child to be happy, there just can be so many shadow sides to that and unknowns unconscious parts. But even what I’m saying, I don’t know if there are some dark, like, unconscious parts, but I guess I’m tangenting a little bit because I also, as you know, Nick, I work with horses and I enjoy time with horses, and yet I struggle all the time with the fact that we keep them behind fences, and we keep them accessible to humans the way we want, but do they want that, and it would be some time as a whole for that to shift, but if we really believed in the freedom of another being, then you know, how do we see, and treat them, and think about that? And so I guess looping back to intention when it comes to bringing life in, maybe that does apply too to the things that we create, that are not just human life or animal life or caretaking for others, but what we’re creating as far as what we’re birthing.

Nick Werber 1:06:38

I think there’s so much metaphor and in birth and creation, and I think in many ways, you know, the creative pursuits are kind of a process, a feminine process and a lot of ways that birthing, that creation, that I really, I do appreciate what you said shared, and I just wanted to acknowledge that I think you are not alone, and I can imagine there are many people listening right now that would resonate with that about having children in order to change, somehow change the way, you know, give them an experience you didn’t have, and there’s a piece of me that just wants to say, I don’t want to, I don’t think it’s totally wrong to come into that, to come into it that way, but I think it’s so important to have the awareness that you know.

Nick Werber 1:07:39

There’s a cartoon about this that I love, they’re kind of these candy hearts, like the ones that we give out on Valentine’s Day, but their characters and one of them just has on the candy heart section, it says we will not let you get fucked up, and then the mother side says: our parents fucked us up, and then the little baby heart just says: “a new kind of fucked up”.

Candice Wu 1:08:00

Oh! I love that! Please send me that. we are going to link that here too.

Nick Werber 1:08:05

It’s the clearest, like you get it immediately.

Candice Wu 1:08:11

Yeah.

Nick Werber 1:08:12

And this is a huge thing, I’m sitting with right now where I am talking about with my partner about, you know, when we might have children and what I’m bringing them into the world, why I’m doing that, what is the intention behind that is a big thing, and I do get wrapped up sometimes and all the things I would do differently, and then I catch myself saying, you know, I actually was raised in a way that I think my parents were very focused on doing it differently, and that is, it has its own shortcomings in a funny way.

Candice Wu 1:08:51

I really appreciate you bringing that up and holding space for that not being wrong, and I do feel that too, and when we think that things like that are wrong or like that we shouldn’t do that, it can compel us, yes to find something different but it can also be a way that we don’t acknowledge, that we actually have those true desires inside of us and the more we put a blanket over that, saying, okay, let’s like, let’s not, let’s resist that and let’s not use that intention. Sometimes that really backfires and it just lives anyway.

Candice Wu 1:09:47

Circling back to the beginning of our conversation, you know, where you said, I think these feelings I’m having are going to emerge no matter what, and there’s such a power to just say acknowledging it, and respecting that and seeing where it has an effect if you can and claiming it. So it has a place instead of just this like, lingering thing somewhere in the unconscious that does pass forward and lives itself out is the little baby heart.

Candice Wu 1:10:29

So do you want to talk about one more topic, Nick? I know we just like laid out so many. So good, but we kind of are leaning into resistance, what we resist persists, but what are you wanting to talk about now?

Nick Werber 1:10:49

You know, I think again, it just all feels like a time of year to touch on these guys, but I would love to talk about the phenomenon of black sheep and fan. Because I think this is the time of year where all that stuff comes right back up and there are so many people that were the black sheep that are, you know, still in recovery from their family gathering or have you know, stayed home and held certain boundaries and, you know, had to suffer watching all the family photos go by on their Facebook feed or whatever; and I just, I think something that is just so important to me is a real respect for the phenomenon of black sheep, how they emerge and that they are such an important part of the evolution of our society and our culture, and so that’s what comes up for me, so then, I’ve, and then now I feel like I just want to put you on the spot. Are you the black sheep Candice, of your family?

Candice Wu 1:11:59

I saw your post that you are not the black sheep. And I was like, am I?

Nick Werber 1:12:04

I know.

Candice Wu 1:12:07

Yeah, that was great by the way. I really appreciate that, so am I the black sheep?

Nick Werber 1:12:13

Yeah, I can speak more to that too, but yes, I was not the black sheep in my family which a lot of people are surprised to hear that. But the spotlight was taken by another, but yeah, so yeah, you said did you say yes, you are —

Candice Wu 1:12:28

I was thinking about it. It depends on how you define black sheep, so would you define it for the people listening and for me?

Nick Werber 1:12:44

That’s a, it’s a great, yeah. You know, I think if the black sheep is characterized by being someone that feels very strongly out of place, sometimes people that feel that the black sheep and their family feel like their parents are their parents, in some way.

Candice Wu 1:13:06

Yeah.

Nick Werber 1:13:06

You know, how could I possibly be their child and they are often the carrier and the target of all the shame of the family. It’s like there’s this sense of, you know, its parents might have a tendency to almost project all their shortcomings on to the child that didn’t do what they told them or wasn’t enough or should have been smarter or different in some way, which by the way, children are always a reflection of their parents and so for a parent to somehow pointed to a child and say you’re the problem is just very short-sided. But so it’s I think it’s yeah, it’s often they feel a certain level of shame, black sheep, as they get older, might spend very little time with their family because they might become kind of tired of it all and I, you know, I think the kind of classic was like television show thing of, you know, family dinner and the black sheep eat the fastest, tries to get out of it, gets away from the table as quickly as possible, barely talks, if they do, it’s very brief. You know, kind of, it’s almost like black sheep I think have to be very protective of themselves because they can be such target within families.

Candice Wu 1:14:48

Yes, that was me. That’s like almost everything you named. I was like, oh, yeah, check, that’s been my experience.

Candice Wu 1:15:00

At certain points in my life, good chunks of my life definitely felt out of place. Like, how could these be my parents, but then I also saw ways in which I was just like them, a lot of shame, and very much directed towards me even it trickled into my siblings, how could it not, you know, the same directed to me.

Candice Wu 1:15:28

I was known for like, stirring the pot and making things worse; and that’s by virtue of me expressing my feelings, you know, saying what’s going on and what I feel and it was a lot of things my family wasn’t ready to look at, and I, so desperately needed them to and needed them to acknowledge because, for me, it felt like survival, and not having enough resource for myself to survive the emotions that were going on and the trauma that was passed down many years that hadn’t been dealt with, that hadn’t been integrated.

Candice Wu 1:16:15

Yeah, many moments of like running away from the dinner table, having stuffed my food in my mouth, and crying. Those are really rough memories, you know, and I’ve worked on them so many times, and this is still a little tender place. But I can say now that I’m in the best time of connection with my family after doing so much work, inner work and embodied work, constellations work, there’s still more of course, but I actually enjoy my family and they enjoy me now and they’ve also looked at a lot, and so the same isn’t really is as strong as like a strong of a tidal wave, and just maybe exists in little pockets now, but as far as like the family system, it seems, from where I’m standing.

Candice Wu 1:17:22

So yeah, I don’t feel like I’m the black sheep anymore, but I once was, and I know that you had shared Bert Hellinger’s idea of black sheep, think on your Instagram and your social media; and many people have shared that it’s really beautiful because speaking to the black sheep as the change, the healing bringing the evolution of the family system forward is so real to me too, and at times, that’s felt like too much of a responsibility because it was and other times, it felt like an honor, and of course my place… it makes sense… like I wanted to do that but so you’re not the black sheep?

Nick Werber 1:18:12

You know, it’s so funny, this always happens is that as I connect to something over and over again, it deepens, and I just, as I’m hearing you, I feel like, I have actually felt I really connected to something about me that’s a little bit more than maybe what I had shared, which is yes, traditionally in my family, there’s the obvious black sheep is my younger brother and he just was a huge handful in a lot of ways and really offended so much of the family in so many ways, but what I would say is, you know, I said this: when we started that he kind of took the role for me because I feel if he wasn’t there then it would have been me, and I always kind of wished I could have been as disruptive as him. But then I think I had this awareness of how it would just kind of destroy the family to have another kid that is rebelling like that and so I felt conscious of that of like, I don’t have a place to be the rebel anymore.

Nick Werber 1:19:26

But I will say this, is what I connected to as I was talking is that I’m actually, truly, from a family of black sheep. My father was the black sheep of his family and my mother was the black sheep of her family, and maybe that’s not absolutely 100% clear from my mother. There’s like a little bit of a gray area there but for my father, it absolutely was, and so it’s funny, it’s like I’m the child of, I’m like, second-generation black sheep in some way which has a huge role in so much of who I am because I wasn’t raised with religion. I’m the first person and both sides of my family to not be raised with religion at all; and there are a million other traditions that I was maybe not part of for partly just because of that, because there are so many traditions connected to religion.

Nick Werber 1:20:24

So, there’s a funny, I think I realized I’m broadening the perspective a little bit. I’m kind of in the sphere of the black sheep, but maybe on the micro-level, it was more clear that my brother was the big one. But can I actually, that Bert Hellinger quote, may I just read it?

Candice Wu 1:20:44

Please do.

Nick Werber 1:20:45

I think it really captures what I feel about black sheep and I think so many people when they hear it, have a feeling to add. So I’ll just read it. I brought it up because I think I had a feeling we’d be talking about it, so, “The so-called black sheep of the family are, in fact, seekers of deliberation roads for the family tree. Those members of the tree who do not adapt to the rules or traditions of the family system, those who are constantly seeking to revolutionize beliefs, going in contrast to roads marked by family traditions, those criticize, tried and even rejected those by general, they are called to release the tree of repetitive stories that frustrate entire generations. The black sheep, those who do not adapt, those who scream rebel, repair, detoxify and create a new blooming branch, countless unfulfilled desires, unfulfilled dreams, frustrated talents of our ancestors manifest themselves in the black sheep’s rebellion looking to take place. The family tree by inertia will want to continue to maintain the castrating and toxic course of its trunk which makes its task, the black sheeps task, difficult and conflicting that no one makes you doubt. Take care of your rarity as the most precious flower of your tree. You are the dream of all your ancestors.” And that’s by Bert Hellinger.

Nick Werber 1:21:01

So lovely.

Nick Werber 1:22:29

Yeah, you know, it just for me, it captures so many things, but I just, I do feel that black sheep carve new roads for families, you know, without black sheep, families can just keep repeating over and over again; and it’s the black sheep that kind of forced them to face things. Even if the family that sits around the “black sheep” doesn’t receive anything, doesn’t take anything in, you know that the children of the black sheep are never going to be the same. They’re always going to experience traditions and family in a different way. So it’s, I think black sheep are just so intertwined with evolution and as he says, you are the dream of your ancestors and I really believe that our ancestors, it is their dream that we evolve and become more of who we are and more in tune with, what fulfills us and what serves others in the world and so that’s, I really, I can’t say enough of how I put black sheep on a pedestal, I really have a lot of respect for that role and families. So thank you, Candice, for playing that role and coming through it.

Candice Wu 1:24:08

Oh my god! No, I’m starting to think about black sheep in a broader context too, because originally when you said are you the black sheep and I had read your post referring to your brother, I started to think about black sheep in this sort of identified patient kind of way. You know, that language comes from the world of psychology and counseling. Like when a family says, we need help because so and so has a problem in our family, they could name one person as the one with the problem and yeah, I often think of that person is maybe the black sheep and that they have a lot of, they can typically have a lot of symptoms or maybe there’s alcoholism or there’s something that becomes very severe that the family cannot continue to look away; and I wouldn’t say that was me.

Candice Wu 1:25:14

I mean, the worst thing I ever did was, and it’s kind of bad, when I was 16, I got a speeding ticket for 51 over the speed limit. Yeah, it’s a lot. I don’t know, yeah, it was crazy. I never drove that way again but that’s probably the worst that I ever drove and so I couldn’t relate to it in terms of being a certain kind of like, severe set of symptoms or experiencing rebellion in a way that is very like oppositional or something like that but I think that’s the way I’m seeing now can be helpful for anyone that doesn’t perhaps relate to that kind of experience too, you know, and as you’re talking, Nick, that there are parts of us that feel like black sheep, there might be a part of us that we can connect with — has felt like it’s been black sheep, so to say. Maybe that’s just shame, you know, where we feel shame or —

Nick Werber 1:26:29

Well, I love that, it’s that perhaps the part of us that doesn’t feel like it belongs is actually the part that is bringing something to the world. You know, we don’t belong because something that we are, it’s not here yet, it’s not accepted yet but actually, if we can find acceptance with it in ourselves and just and share it and be it, then we actually are giving something to the world we’re hoping it, you know, by including more.

Candice Wu 1:27:07

Yeah, so we can find our inner black sheep, and parts of us that don’t feel like they belong, those are the most essential to the entire wave of evolution and the dreams of the ancestors of all kinds.

Nick Werber 1:27:27

Wow, it’s like where newness emerges from. Wow.

Candice Wu 1:27:37

That’s nice, Nick, nice. So nice place to close, to feel complete.

Nick Werber 1:27:43

I think there’s no way that we could switch to something else —

Candice Wu 1:27:44

Yeah, we’re done here. We are done, except I would love for you to just briefly talk about your retreat. Yeah, it’s coming out February 14 through the 18th…

Nick Werber 1:28:02

…through the 19th actually. Yeah, so, you know, I know you’ve done many retreats, Candice and I feel very strongly that you know, Family Constellations are beautiful one on one, they’re beautiful in a group workshop setting. But I believe that they take on their most powerful, most resourceful state when they’re in a retreat setting, there’s something about gathering with the group and being in that container for multiple days that just the energy just builds and I see it in my own facilitation. I mean, these the retreat work, I think that’s beautiful, and so, —

Candice Wu 1:28:55

Yeah, absolutely.

Nick Werber 1:28:56

Yeah and you know, I knew, and I know this because we met at the intensive, which is a form of a retreat, which was a super powerful and I think meeting you as a part of what made that so powerful for me

Candice Wu 1:29:11

Same here. Yeah, it’s huge

Nick Werber 1:29:16

So, yeah, so this retreat, it starts we’re going to be in Mazunte, Mexico, which is Southern Mexico, and it’s overlooking the Pacific Ocean, and it’s just a really beautiful place. Again, you, it’s like you can walk five minutes to the water, and we’ll be doing Family Constellations work and various forms of Shadow Work. The stuff that, you know, it really goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of this call of, you know, when you set these intentions, you will meet certain barriers and at that point, you know, it’s important to call in your resources. So all the work we’re doing is literally to meet you at that point is, you know, resources that help people actually do the work of chipping away and doing the integration and processing with these barriers. So we’ll get there on Friday and be doing that work on this beautiful terrace that is kind of open-air and I’m just, I’m super excited about it because these groups come together and it’s just people leave as incredible friends and I still see from my past retreats, you know, people basically communicating with each other that I know had met at some of the work that we have been doing.

Candice Wu 1:30:44

That’s awesome. Yeah.

Nick Werber 1:30:45

Yeah.

Candice Wu 1:30:46

It sounds beautiful, and what a great time to you know, if you live in the Midwest or somewhere called to get out into a little bit of warmth and get the fire on the inside.

Nick Werber 1:31:01

That’s a big part of it. Yeah, that was a big part of why we reschedule it, you know, there’s going to be really beautiful deep work going on. But there is a lot of space built in to just go chill on the beach, which is, you know, just as important, and the weather I think is like, you know, the mid–80s basically, winter.

Candice Wu 1:31:28

So good.

Nick Werber 1:31:29

Sounds pretty good to me.

Candice Wu 1:31:31

Awesome. Where can people find that retreat, Nick?

Nick Werber 1:31:37

So if you go to my website, which is just NickNWerber.com, you can go there or my Instagram is @nwerber (instagram.com/nwerber), and then all of its actually being hosted through Maha Rose, which is this incredible organization that’s based in Brooklyn, and that’s of Maha Rose’s website, www.maharose.com is another place where you can read up about it.

Candice Wu 1:32:06

Thank you so much, Nick. This was fun, and do you feel like we, you? Yeah. How did we do on our intentions?

Nick Werber 1:32:19

I think we did great, and I really am. I think we did well, because I really, that it was funny that moment where you said, I think we have to close there was actually the moment where I had felt a sense of, oh, wow, I actually this is, it’s the exact kind of subject that I will spend the next few weeks thinking about of. You know, all those places where I don’t feel I belong, of which there are many, you know, is that possible? That’s just something that’s emerging that the world can I respect it in that way. So I think there is a fullness that I feel when I just connect to that right now, so I think we did well and, you know.

Candice Wu 1:33:04

Absolutely, yeah, to each their own of their experience and yeah, I’ll be thinking about that too, and it’s kind of like a twist on something I’ve been doing for some time. But the words are so poignant now like all the ways I feel that I don’t belong now or maybe in the past, yeah.

Nick Werber 1:33:33

Yeah, well, it’s so, you know, obviously, the reflex of way to experience that is it’s just the opposite. I don’t belong and there must be something wrong with me and all the stuff that we talked about. So it definitely is turning an idea on its head in a way that you know, I don’t know about you, but the moment I connect with it, I just, I feel that sense of my body relaxes and I feel clearer and you know, for me, it’s all the signals that there’s —

Candice Wu 1:34:03

Yeah, same here. I feel that playfulness that I was wanting about it, to approach it with playfulness. It’s a fun process to think about it in this way and I learned so much. Thank you, Nick.

Nick Werber 1:34:23

Thank you, Candice. I feel like we can do this again.

Candice Wu 1:34:26

We still have to talk about all sorts of things like letting — like, kind of

Candice Wu 1:34:33

I love that topic, that was the ones that kept me up and what we resist persists. Like how just looking at that in different ways and through the body. So yeah, a little teaser for our next podcast whenever that comes, but let’s do it.

Nick Werber 1:34:52

The perfect cliffhanger for now.

Candice Wu 1:34:55

Thank you, Nick. Okay, definitely see you next time and just want to say one more thing, actually, thank you so much for offering the music for the Embody Podcast, the intro and outro music. I still use it. It’s still on every single podcast and you created it. It’s so lovely.

Nick Werber 1:35:17

I know. I love it.

Candice Wu 1:35:18

Thank you.

Nick Werber 1:35:20

Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m so glad.

Candice Wu 1:35:26

I’m so grateful for Nick’s presence out in the world, and what he’s doing in support of other people, and in growing the work of Family Constellations in his unique way. It’s really beautiful to be challenged by his work and to learn and grow from it and also to exchange in the ways that we do as friends and as colleagues. Thank you so much, Nick, and thank you all out there for listening. I hope this does give you something to nibble on as we close today. Be sure to check out Nick’s website if you’re interested in his work or the retreat coming up, and his Instagram where he shares a lot of his writing, and again, his website is nicknwerber.com, and you can find all of the links at the show notes related to this episode at candice.com/nickparttwo.

Candice Wu 1:36:24

And as we send each other forward into this new year 2020, this is already been quite a long podcast, so I’m just going to pretty much close it out from here and send you off with of course Nick’s lovely intro outro music if you’re interested in staying connected, you can feel free to sign up for my newsletter at candice.com/embody where I share all about the podcast, and the experientials, and meditations that come out as well as events, self-love notes, and updates about me. Thanks so much and see you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

As a gift, Nick Werber has offered one of his favorite audio meditations on the subject of consenting to people and the present moment as they are. The meditation is originally written by German psychologist, Bert Hellinger, and as read by Dr. Michael Picucci. Dr. Picucci was one of Nick’s greatest mentors before he passed away, and Nick spent a year recording several of his meditations along with the audio version of his book, Vocalizing Source Energy. The content of the meditation gets at universal and enduring truth that our perception of the world around us shapes the world around us. What an honor to have him here on the podcast, sharing this experience with all of you. Though I’ve never met either one of you, Michael and Bert Hellinger, thank you.

Michael Picucci 1:11

This is Michael Picucci. I’m going to recite my own adaptation of a brief guided meditation, originally written by German psychologist, Bert Hellinger. The name of this meditation is Consenting. It is intended to be a deep and meaningful experience.

Before doing so, may I suggest you find a private, comfortable place for yourself, and then slowly find a sense of embodiment and an awareness of your body, perhaps take a few conscious breaths just noticing the natural in and out of the breath. Give yourself a few minutes to notice that we have a live body as well as a mind and let this awareness be an accompaniment to the meditation. As I share the meditation, feel free to let the words wash over you as you are listening to them.

This particular guided meditation is intended to have its own special effects on many levels and dimensions of your experience. Feel free to listen to it as often as it can be helpful to you in finding a better ground of being.

I begin, consenting, as soon as I have consented to other persons as they are, they can feel at ease. As soon as I have consented to a situation, as it is, it changes. It reveals to me new possibilities for action. On an inward journey, I may experience that an obstacle stands in my way. Often, it is something that I have not yet consented to, for example, a pain or loss that I have not gotten over, was something that must be resolved. There is something else to which I must agree, the time that I still need. As soon as I have agreed that I need more time, time leaves me in peace. I may move on.

I experienced something similar with my pain. What happens when I agree to it? When I no longer try to get rid of it? When I take it close to my heart and allow it to calm down in me? When I permit it to take the lead? Perhaps, this pain wants to take me to something that I have lost sight of, for example, another person, maybe this pain guides me back to something that is waiting for recognition and for a solution. Therefore, I stay with this pain as it is the whole time.

With this pain, something recollects itself inside of me. Is it that I pause on my inward journey, in the moment, exactly here? Or is it that this pain is leading me on to a decisive step because I have agreed to it? It takes me by the hand and leads me further and deeper. When I simply surrender, what happens to my pain? My pain, too, calm down and finds its peace. It closes its eyes as if its work is done.

As soon as I agree to everything, as it is, I gain precious time. As I stay in peace with me, something in me and outside of me grows as if of its own accord. These inner journeys are movements of life, I have agreed to everything as it is, I feel free to engage in the essential aspects of life. I may move on in a decisive manner.

These inward journeys of movements of life, what I have agreed to everything as it is, I feel free to engage in the essential aspects of life. I may move on in a decisive manner.

The forces of life first collect inside, only then, do they turn outside. Insights too, a first perceived inside. After that, they set something in motion outside. On our inward journeys, we consent everything as it is, first to ourselves and to our situation, to life as it is, and to the lives of other people. In this way, our inward journeys continue outside as well.

Our journeys to source energy, open other space for us inside. Rilke calls this space, the inner space of the world. In this space, we relate to life in a more comprehensive way, we see it differently, and we become different. After this, we return to our own space, changed, and we turn toward our everyday lives, changed. What is the nature of this change? We are in its service, a line with enough love.

Candice Wu 0:01

This episode is with my guest, Susan Lipshutz and she is the everyday medicine woman. Susan reminds us of what’s beyond the minds programming, our innate wisdom, and reawakening the divine feminine. In this conversation, she talks about what informs the universe and what is the Akashic realm. So, learn all about the Akashic realm and Akashic records here in this episode as well as being a rainbow sheep.

Candice Wu 0:32

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, embodied healing and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:46

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist, sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:06

The Ally with Death Experiential is on sale until January 6, 2020. It’s so fitting that in this episode, we talked about cutting the umbilical cords of what’s not sustaining us anymore, that for a time the umbilical cord is needed, and then there’s a time to cut it off. So, what needs to be cut off in your life? What needs to die? What needs to end? When we identify these and work with the energies, emotions, and sensations that are held in our bodies, then we can truly clear and cleanse out what needs to go to make space for a new life, for vitality, rebirthing yourself, and what’s life-giving and present.

Candice Wu 1:51

So, if you want to get clarity for yourself or come back to your intuitive sensing, playful self, check out the Ally with Death Experiential, which is an audio experience that’s guided for you with moody and provocative music by Larry Saint Germain and produced by Chris Spiegl. You can find it at CandiceWu.com/death, you might consider giving it as a gift to yourself or to a loved one. And again the sale is from now until January 6, 2020.

Candice Wu 2:21

We first became interested in the Akashic records when I learned Ayurveda, I was studying Ayurveda and sensed into that as something that was very familiar to me, and over time, I began to develop different gifts and skills in the intuitive or psychic realms, in awareness, and I thought, maybe, it’s time for me to learn that more formally. And so, I worked with Vanessa Rodriguez, who was also a guest on this podcast previously, and she learned from Susan Lipshutz. So, today is such a special day because Susan is here talking to us about the Akashic realm, her 25-year old relationship with the realm and the records, how they can be supportive to us and how the records hold everything, that the collective has ever been through and we are going.

Candice Wu 3:22

I love the way that she brings life and her vibrancy to this conversation, and I have just admired Susan from many different angles, in how she brings people together in the language that she uses that so juicy and provocative, and invoking, and in her way of relating with people. Susan is a licensed clinical social worker and has been a pioneer in the field of integrative psychotherapy, women’s empowerment and soul level mentoring for over 35 years. Her consultations are tailored to the need of the individual, offering a blend of innovative deep therapeutic approaches with an expanded understanding of the greater self via an astrological and spiritual perspective.

Candice Wu 4:15

Susan invites a reclaiming of each woman’s ancestral wisdom, inner guidance and innate understanding of true beauty via a weaving of practices and teachings, inspired by her many years of dedicated work with global wisdom keepers and evolutionary teachings. She’s the founder of Everyday Medicine Woman and offers workshops, meditation courses and retreats as well. So, without further ado, here’s Susan.

Candice Wu 4:53

Okay. Hello, Susan.

Susan Lipshutz 4:56

Hi. Hi. How are you?

Candice Wu 4:58

Wonderful. How are you?

Susan Lipshutz 5:00

I’m Well, thank you. I’m very happy upon our recording right now, mercury has just gone direct, and so, that feels like a wonderful boost.

Candice Wu 5:10

Doesn’t it? It just feels, for me, it feels like some clarity, like things are settling and also like, moving. How is it for you?

Susan Lipshutz 5:20

Well, I think, you know, the experience of this, these, the retrogrades, this year of 2019, have all been in water. So, I think there’s been very much an experience of, because mercury, when it goes retrograde is a process of unwinding, and ultimately, renewal and a lot of what we hope will be clarity or information that can come forward, but because it’s in water, I think it really takes us into more of the unconscious and more of the symbolic and deep in the underground elements of ourself, and then end up having to transcribe those and so, I think with the crescendo having just been in Scorpio, which is very much the elements that we hide from ourselves. It’s quite a deep, rich, mystical and healing journey.

Candice Wu 6:12

Thanks for describing it that way, it really did feel for me like I was in some underbelly of myself…

Susan Lipshutz 6:18

Yes.

Candice Wu 6:19

…then seeing things like oh man, like wow. So, here we are, we’ve emerged out of that and it’s just beautiful to talk to you. I know we’re going to jump into some akashic records today, but before that, I’m just chuckling at technology bumps in the road that we’ve had, and you just mentioned that sometimes when we talk about, when you talk about akashic records that that happens, and I experienced that, too, when there’s a big not just akashic records, but like a big load of energy.

Susan Lipshutz 6:53

That the, that it’s more difficult or interesting to record? Yes.

Candice Wu 6:58

Yes, you Yes, and technology just kind of crashes. Right?

Susan Lipshutz 7:03

Absolutely. Patience is required.

Candice Wu 7:06

So much, right? But Susan, it’s a blessing to have you here. You, I’ve seen you as just anchoring the energy of our ancient wisdom and the divine feminine or mystical essence, bringing in that energy, but grounding it in a way that people can understand and take up in their modern and daily life, and you are the founder of Everyday Medicine Woman. And you also speak about bringing together the wisdom, the ancient wisdom of your grandmother’s, of our grandmothers into our lives. And I wondered, how can we see threads of your own lineage and your grandmother’s in your work, today?

Susan Lipshutz 7:54

Thank you, thank you for focusing a little bit on ancestry and I think For me, it’s been a process, and it’s so interesting that I think sometimes, for all of us, we are so close, and so informed by the dynamics of our family, I know you do so much incredibly beautiful work around helping everyone heal from the impact of some of the experiences that we’ve gone through in our families that have resulted in obstructions and adaptations and some trauma, that it really creates challenge in knowing who we are. And so, I think that’s true with our lineage that for many of us or spirituality that we are so close to the experience and the experience is often informed by the limitation or the struggles or the challenges that our families have gone through, particularly for those of us who are women, who have matriarchal lines that have all been informed by the journey of leaving homeland to come to where we live, which is the United States, although we listen to podcasts all over the world, and then informed by cultures who that have denigrated and suppress the feminine and marginalized.

Susan Lipshutz 9:12

So, I think about the challenge of really opening up to my ancestry had to do with me reanimating and being able to see everyone in there, through that lens of understanding and the way that I found myself back in to really appreciating them as guideposts and potential wisdom keepers was being able to work with women, elders and grandmothers from traditions and cultures other than mine, but who had unbroken relationships to themselves as being connected to ancient lineage, ancient meaning, something really beautiful and assets that kept us connected richly to ourselves as stewards of earth and connected to being able to dream in a timeless way, and being able to understand that we all carry a certain kind of innate kind of wisdom that if we harvest it, just like harvesting a garden or an orchard, it could become a remedy or feeding or serving of others, you know, are calling.

Susan Lipshutz 10:20

So, by me searching outside of my traditions, it allowed me to then come back in and start to see the beauty as well as that which was out of balance for them and being able to invite some sorts of making peace with and doing ceremony on behalf of the wounds and the difficulties that they went through so that I didn’t have the benefit of really seeing and feeling their power and their wisdom in an unobstructed way. It was more than I really felt the absence of it and searching for. I would say the more particularly, though my grandmother, who I spent a tremendous amount of time who was immigrated from Russia, and fleed and was an orphan, and went through a tremendous amount of challenge, but I experienced her. She taught me how to cook and she taught me how to laugh, and she taught me just this the sweetness of an experience of the preciousness of life every day. She really didn’t share that element of her story, but she really lived, what she created and what she forged. She was an Aries. So, what she forged in order to create an incredible family here in the United States, and I was lucky because I was the last of the grandchildren. And so she, I just have had her to myself, and we spent a lot of time together. It’s really, really very sweet.

Susan Lipshutz 11:51

So, I think also, really, as I say, doing my own healing work, and appreciating it through the lens of the challenge that and the marginalization at the feminine is moved through, has helped me to understand and have tremendous compassion for the elements of what presented itself to me as an interception from a really strong sort of support of my own mother, and being able to appreciate the gifts that she gave me, and the gifts of her pain, because that also helped me understand my journey as well.

Candice Wu 12:26

It’s beautiful. If you’re so sweet to hear about your grandmother and that preciousness of life that she brings, and the laughter.

Susan Lipshutz 12:32

Yes, I can smell the chocolate. Those incredible cupcakes. We still do those traditions that they did, you know, with my daughters when they were little, too.

Candice Wu 12:44

Oh, that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. Wow, you have so many different layers, Susan, of your work, and I can just hear it even in that description, and the major piece I hear is bringing people to their essence and that connection that brings us into that wild, unknown, unknown self and harvesting everything we can for that. And I’m curious, what’s alive for you and your life right now or in your work right now, your exploration and relationship with everything you’re working with?

Susan Lipshutz 13:20

You know, it’s interesting, because I feel like I always, you know, life is a spiral, you know, in terms of a journey that we have. And so, whatever we’re meeting in a contemporary way, I think it can’t help but open us up to elements of ourselves that we couldn’t get to before we didn’t have this, couldn’t be on this part of the road. So, we have, hopefully, whether it’s more maturity or we bring more perspective or we have more tools or readiness, you know, so, I think that it’s just this experience of meeting whatever is new for us in our lives, and yet kind of then how it sequences or how it activates elements within ourselves that can ultimately kind of you, being a therapist, also understand how people will come in and go, I thought I already dealt with this. And I’ll kind of I don’t see that anymore for myself because it’s like, well, yeah, yeah, we meet ourselves.

Candice Wu 14:20

Yeah. Right. I remember times I used to say that, too, and then it stopped because it was like, Oh, yeah.

Susan Lipshutz 14:29

Right, right, right, of course.

Candice Wu 14:30

Right.

Susan Lipshutz 14:31

And so, it’s just fascinating for me in that way, but also as well as my, whatever my personal themes might be, that I see this with my work as well because, you know, there’s just so many, like you said, layers to my work, and I think when I keep moving on my path, I keep reencountering.

Candice Wu 14:50

Oh, yeah.

Susan Lipshutz 14:51

That technique or “Oh my gosh, that tool” or this way that I can work because I do so much as this is this sematic work that we’re all facing, and then how can we move into a ceremonial or a ritual place to help step into a collaborative so we don’t feel like we’re passive in the process or reactive in the process, but we can say, How can I be interactive in what’s happening in my life? What’s happening in the world? And how can I collaborate with it, no matter how challenging it may be? And so, there’s that process. So, I think what I find fascinating for me, is that I’ll feel like I just keep evolving, and I don’t mean that any other way except the work just keeps opening up, and things that I’m excited or interested in. So, it’s, and then I find that “Oh, yeah, this is really important to remember how meaningful it was to do this particular kind.”

Susan Lipshutz 15:46

Like last night, I have a monthly women’s medicine circle, and so, last night, we did some cord-cutting ceremony which really had to do with unwinding from what is not life-sustaining anymore, and I sort of like it to You know, when you’re in utero, your umbilical cord connects you to the placenta which is life-sustaining, but when you come out of it it’s no longer life-sustaining, it’s not supporting you and so you cut the cord, and you connect the cord to something perhaps else, but I think we have to do that over and over again and saying, “I need to now unwind from something, that is not life-sustaining anymore, that the myth is that it’s been keeping us alive and I need it, but in fact, it’s harming me.” So, in there’s that interception of how do we differentiate that and so coming out of the mercury retrograde and so forth.

Susan Lipshutz 16:33

So, my point being is that for me, personally, I just find it so interesting, you know, to keep finding these, “Oh, there’s this little tool in my toolbox” like that man, you know, it’s like, oh, there’s this cool little gizmo and right in my pack that I can use again that I forgot I had and that’s so fabulous. And let’s work with this, and let’s construct of we’re working with astrology and we’re working with their everyday lives, and we’re working with what’s happening, but there’s something that will help us move through it, you know, so, I’m ever grateful for the time that I spent in that deep sort of practice of learning, and I’m always learning and I’m always growing. And I always feel like, “Oh, I’m a beginner again, because we’re beginning every day with the rising sun.” And yet, at the same time, there’s some developed understanding that we can work with as well.

Susan Lipshutz 17:33

So, I think what I find is really fascinating and beautiful, and I feel very called to is working on an individual level with clients, working collaboratively with more innovative, entrepreneurial kinds of spaces, working with larger groups of intentional community and retreats and so forth. However we gather is this interface around where our life is right now and how to honor it, and then how do we tap in, and how do we expand out for information, for understanding, for a reset, and a perspective, that in a very timeless, a very timely, and a very deep reference point of historical in a sense.

Susan Lipshutz 18:24

So, we go to a timeless place to discover past present future from a very different perspective, so we can move back in, like I said, as co-creators and so what I find two maps that can really help us do that is through astrology and through the Akashic realm or the Akashic experience, and so, I’ve been finding particularly and working individually with people, if they’re open to it, is working with opening up their Akashic records while also having their chart available through collaboratively, so, I don’t work with people as a one-shot consultation, because I find too many people just passively want to walk in the space and say, “Well, what are you going to tell me?” And then it’s almost like prove to me that you can move into these spaces more like a psychic reading, and then I can step out of the space of I don’t like what I hear. That’s really not, I think really deeply about collaboration that I don’t know anything more than, you know, my whole hope is to help you remember what you’ve forgotten or what you don’t have access to.

Susan Lipshutz 19:32

And so, me having access to the material can help you remember and have access to yourself. So, it’s really one of us working together and having this incredible experience of the following the breadcrumbs we’re putting together this, you know, weaving the dots of your story in a much bigger way so that we take it back into our everyday lives. And I think this is true in different ways with women, in particular, in our lost ancestry as a collective, and then understanding the power that we have now that we’ve never had before, and how to use it wisely as leaders, and stewards and a different way of collaborating with that maternal energy. And, you know, systems, too, because the astrology shows us in big trends, how the systems are all collapsing. And so, we have to create new structures, and how do we do that? I really find that really, really powerful and enjoy it very much to feel compelled that it just has so much information of value to it.

Candice Wu 20:33

Oh, yeah.

Susan Lipshutz 20:34

People are feeling that, too.

Candice Wu 20:36

I think so. And, you know, people that I previously have known to maybe just not even look in the direction of astrology have been coming up within themselves just like, “Well, what if I look? Oh, wow, that matches what happened yesterday.” And it’s this fun, delightful place that people are awakening this, to this as a tool. Some people, not everyone, and that’s okay, but I’m fascinated with this crossover, this collaboration, partnership of Akashic records and astrology, and I want to hear more about that. And before we go there, would you describe your relationship or your understanding of Akashic records? Especially for people out there that are just learning about it or want to know more, and want to know from your view.

Susan Lipshutz 21:29

Oh, sure. Yeah, that’s really all I have just like you.

Candice Wu 21:33

Thank you.

Susan Lipshutz 21:34

So, I’d love to and when I say I’d love to, I mean, I struggle with the words because it is something that is outside of our mind, and I think one of the beautiful parts of Akashic work, which I will do my best to give a glimpse of some way of our creating a bridge for that is that I think it lives in the space of wanting us to update our mind so that our mind can start to have a capacity to understand what our experiences that transcend the mind. So, really, what I’m saying is that I think many of us and I think we find this a lot, especially when we start to do this workaround heart-centered work or our soul level work or this experience of what meditation and mindfulness and you know, kind of, in that level of what we experience that is beyond what the mind can.

Susan Lipshutz 22:34

Mind has a program for that we need to find a way to have a divine mind, to have that cosmic consciousness that lives in our individual ability at the mental level so that we can hold what it is, we’re coming to understand in a non-ordinary way, that we can then help us move through our lives without having to struggle and keep repeating all these challenges, and all these things that create suffering for us, because we can’t translate them into uploading them as it relates to belief systems. I don’t know if that makes sense, but a lot of times, we’ll go through this incredible healing or we’ll get a different understanding at a, like, we get it, it’s the best way I can put it, but then our mind gets in there, our beliefs get in there that gets here, right, fear, death, unworthiness, and then if we don’t update those, so we can do them with beautiful techniques of, you know, working with shifting those through mantras and through, you know, kind of rewiring and all of that, but I think that if we can upload the basis and the premise of at the mental field, at the meta, how we’re holding our understanding, so it even goes beyond our beliefs and attitudes are informed by a deeper understanding, a deeper knowing.

Susan Lipshutz 23:57

Kind of like once we see something that isn’t just in the brain, but it’s really, we really take it in and digest it, we change it. We’re not connected to it in the same way. Like even if you took a hike, and you didn’t know how to get somewhere, but you finally get somewhere, and then you see where you’ve gone, the map inside goes, “Oh, I get it now,” and it might take me a little while to remember it, but now I understand where the route is, and I understand what it looks like when I’m on the other side of that, and I can hold that image of that bigger field, like when I’m up there, so that when I go back down, I remember where the journey really led and how beautiful the vision is, you know, the visuals. The field is the panorama of it.

Susan Lipshutz 24:42

And also, there’s another element to it, too, where it’s not only the information of what we receive, that we hold more than that it’s the vibrational frequency which gets into more, you know, esoteric concepts, but it’s like when we’ve, when we have created a shift inside of ourselves, we just feel things differently. So, when our heart opens.

Candice Wu 25:05

Yeah.

Susan Lipshutz 25:06

Right? So, if we feel things differently, and through that then, it helps us comprehend what we’re going through. Just like when we’re children and our cognition up, you know, we go through a big growth spurt in being able to go from concrete, meaning right and wrong into more abstract thinking and holding concepts, and it’s the same thing. I think that the records or the realm of the Akashic, its design is such that we mature our minds so that we can hold concepts that we’ve been trying to when we’re meditating, or we’re trying to move past some old thinking. Does that make sense?

Candice Wu 25:44

Absolutely. It’s like, it feels what you’re saying is that it’s designed to support us in more than just what we fed most of our experience through the mind and into all the ways that we can perceive, know and experience, and see.

Susan Lipshutz 26:06

Exactly, exactly. And so, the way that I got drawn into it because I was doing, I was going through my own spiritual awakening and I was sort of running around experiencing everything, you know, and not digesting it, of course, at all, but I was on a sort of a feeding frenzy, and it’s like, Ah.

Candice Wu 26:28

Let’s have the buffet of life.

Susan Lipshutz 26:30

Exactly.

Candice Wu 26:31

I get it.

Susan Lipshutz 26:32

So I, I was I received a few Akashic readings and it wasn’t so much, I can’t quite tell you what I heard. I can tell you what I felt, and what I felt was the most expansive love other than having my children, of the most expansive love, I would say it’s a similar field of, of just pure source love, of through this experience and then holding it was really on attunement that all allowed me to have a different level of calm through my experience, and a different sense of understanding that drew from whatever doors opened, that I walked through. And so, then I was just sort of like, “Oh, I really want to keep doing this. And I’d like to learn this for myself.” And then I thought: if there was the way I could learn this to be of service to other people, that that would really be something I would love to be able to do. So, that’s what I did.

Susan Lipshutz 27:27

So I’ve been working with the records for over 25 years. And I find that the work is just tremendously, there’s always some golden seeds that open up through the readings for other people, and I can’t really kind of, I have no idea what’s going to happen when we open the records and in the sense that I will see where that information wants to go, but that it in some way inform some sort of assistance for someone on the journey that they’re on or it kind of creates a fast forward in the sense to get to the heart of something that they have felt nodded by.

Susan Lipshutz 28:05

And there’s someone that I work with who’s a teacher in astrology, and he speaks about because he’s a therapist and a beautiful, deep evolutionary astrology instructor in a really rich way. And he articulated the same thing I experienced in the Akashic, which is we open up the field, it’s a field of love, and when we open up a field of love, in the space of healing, then there is a safety and there is access to an overcoming of some obstruction or not, whether it’s a karmic knot from a past life, whether it’s an episode or an encapsulated kind of traumatic or obstruction in this life, but it allows for a permeability into understanding that then we can open it up more, and we can have, and the person can feel more capacity to understand. And through the deeper understanding, not just knowing, you know, like, “Oh yeah, I know my story,” but in the felt experience beyond that, from a place of compassion can offer a sense of self-healing to it, which I remark in that as well. I feel that as well.

Candice Wu 29:21

It’s beautiful.

Susan Lipshutz 29:22

Yeah, it is very, very beautiful.

Candice Wu 29:25

Well, and when you’re saying that the umbilical cord, just like referencing back to that…

Susan Lipshutz 29:30

Yeah.

Candice Wu 29:30

….I feel almost like the way you’re describing it. It’s like taking your essential chord and plugging it back into source. The source of that you are, the love and it just reminds in it.

Susan Lipshutz 29:46

Yeah, yeah. And so yes, and so, I want to also say, just as you’re talking about that, for those individuals who have been to Peru, what is really beautiful about Peru and there are many places in the world where there’s been an unbroken relationship to ourselves as humans that are natural part of our nature and our cosmic. So, when you’re in Peru for example, the word Pachamama, which is mother, but it’s a cosmic mother because Pacha is time, and mama is Mother Earth.

Susan Lipshutz 30:22

So, there are some of the teachings in your umbilical cord and at some point in your life shifts, from your human mother to your spirit mother. So, you always want to start a ceremony by thinking: Pachamama. And all the time, and you’re doing all these dispatches, which are these beautiful offerings, which I had this benefit of learning how to do, and they’re just so exquisite and simple, but the idea meaning is that let’s re-articulate and re-reference ourselves like our GPS, that our umbilical cord goes down to be fed through Pachamama. A Pachamama Earth is also living in space in the universe, and the universe is informed by cosmic consciousness. So, cosmic consciousness has an intention, and that’s what we’re sourcing the records from, is this divine intelligence that has an intention for us.

Susan Lipshutz 31:16

The intention is that we remember that we’re loving, that we have an intention to evolve, and that we’re part of this evolution to grow. So, it’s not just universe. So, what a lot of people say, “Oh, the universe is guiding me or I’m letting the universe move through me” and it’s like, okay, but what informs the universe, right? And so, what the universe is, is a divine intelligence, cosmic consciousness, that’s almost saying: “We love you earthly being. We want you to evolve because we’re in this beautiful construct, where if you don’t evolve, we don’t evolve. So, we’re kind of moving backward. I know this serves you well, but we’re moving backward to…”

Candice Wu 31:58

I love it. No, it’s perfect.

Susan Lipshutz 31:59

So… get it together, this is what was going on around the Mayan calendar, where 2012 we’re all like, Oh, so we’re just going to fall apart, you know, all these things going to happen, and it’s like it really had to do with the Mayans are our timekeepers. And so, when you learn about the calendar, the calendar is all about time, and it’s an incredibly complex system of time that keeps repeating itself and then in this compound way, moving forward, very much like our compound where we call the compound trauma memory of the compound memory of our soul. So, around 2012 that was the whole notion was that when some people prophecies we’re talking about is that, “Hey, we’ve been here before and we blew it.” So, we’re in the, right, we’re in in the eye of the needle, where we’ve got to go through the eye of the needle.

Susan Lipshutz 32:50

So, where are we now? We’re in going into the next decade, where everybody’s going, “Hey, we’ve got like 9, 10 years or we are going to have environmental apocalypse” and it’s not to scare people. It’s just saying, “We’ve moved away from our consciousness of understanding of our responsibility to our land and our earth. We are technology grew faster than our awareness, shamans, and we’ll talk about, we just didn’t dream into our dream, the understanding that we were earth keepers too. So, now we have to include that into the dream.

Susan Lipshutz 33:22

So, you see how it all weaves together. So, its collective as well as it is individual, and that’s where we’re at that, like fast forward into this place of saying, and that’s where young ones, which is why Greta Thunberg and all of these earth guardians are coming forward at 13, 15, 18, why we’re seeing people coming in with children that are anxious and depressed. And so, everyone’s going why are they anxious and depressed? It’s like, what they’re waking up every morning to their future, which is they don’t have one. They’re seeing the earth blowing up and on fire. They’re seeing that there’s no clean water. So, they’re saying, “Hey, I’m gonna step forward and it’s my earth and so I have to, you know, I have to take care of this because you’ve all forgotten.

Susan Lipshutz 34:08

So, it’s really sad. It’s admirable but really sad that our leaders are these 15-year-olds saying, “Okay, we’re going to take leadership.” That plugs into we’re Chiron is, which is an Aries in the world right now. Chiron is in astrology is the wound. The planet Chiron speaks to the wound and the remedy of the wound, and it’s just gone into Aries and Aries is forging action, leading. It’s an initiatory energy. It launches the spring. So, these are warriors coming in things, you know, “The heck with you Let’s go. We’re not waiting for, we’re not going to read this anymore. We’re going to take action.” So, I see it all leads together in and why we are, where we are, and why.

Candice Wu 34:55

In Hong Kong, too.

Susan Lipshutz 34:56

Correct.

Candice Wu 34:57

And all the young people that are just…

Susan Lipshutz 34:59

Taking to the streets.

Candice Wu 35:00

….relentless. Yeah. And beautifully collaborating with each other. It’s, yeah, this is, I love this description of it.

Susan Lipshutz 35:08

Yeah, and the intergenerational piece of this, where we have elders that have lost their voice. That’s why when I started working with the International Council of 13 Indigenous Grandmothers, they were saying, we’re only doing this to awaken you to the wisdom of, the lost wisdom of eldership. You have marginalized eldership and put them into places, warehouses, and forget them, and elders have all this. They’re like time capsules have this incredible knowledge, and that we have just discarded because they don’t have anything that we feel is a value to our culture. So, when we start to reanimate that, we start to reanimate, you know, everything. So, we need that intergenerational wisdom instead of using our world, right?

Susan Lipshutz 35:54

So, getting back to the Akashic records, we can see the value of how by piercing the veil of time, and how by resourcing a memory field of understanding of ourselves, our past lives, our multidimensional self, who we are to one another, who we are to the world, our mission, all those things that we reawaken. So, how we sort of find it in a way or where is it been? It’s really fascinating, because so, I liken it when people used to ask me about, like, how do you describe the records? I would be fumbling along, because when I started working with it, the, you know, the internet, the World Wide Web was just starting. And now, of course, that’s our whole life. So, I say it’s very similar to the cloud.

Candice Wu 36:42

Yeah.

Susan Lipshutz 36:43

So, when people go, well, what’s the cloud? And how do I get on really what is in my cloud? And everything’s stored in my cloud, and I go, well, ah, the records. So, we have these weird, we have a cloud and the cloud is up there, but how do we connect with it? So, by opening up in attuning and learning how to connect to this vibrational frequency of the Akasha, we can access our cloud and then we download it and we upload, so there you go. So, and then we keep getting upgrades. So, our life-lesson in some ways are the upgrades like you know, we don’t we simply cannot carry all of that information, and it’s connected to collective information. So, we’re really doing that.

Susan Lipshutz 37:29

So, when we, say when you Google the records, there’s a lot of material like everything else, but there are people who have independently discovered so to speak this beautiful experience and it’s not exclusive to the Akasha, I mean really beautiful wisdom. Teachers that we love that throughout all the ancient traditions or all the spiritual traditions or have spontaneous experiences and are they able to work for lack of better word we say channel are tapping in if they’re very, if they have very clean energy, and I think part of it is you, yeah, you have to find a way to grid the space.

Candice Wu 38:07

That’s right.

Susan Lipshutz 38:08

You know, so that, because a lot of times we’re bringing in, like when we start to tune in, we can bring in a lot. It’s like I kind of look at it as, in the old days, when we had radios, where we had to turn the dial, you know, where the old ham-radio, where we had a radio wave into the real frequency, we get a lot of static when we’re starting to open up to psychic realms for lack of better word or intuition, we get a lot of static and that creates actually a lot of difficulty for us, because that’s when we start to actually pick up other people’s stuff or material that really isn’t ours or material of pain that’s on such a deep amount of pain and anxiety in the world today. And so, we have to lift beyond it like an airplane we have to keep going up.

Susan Lipshutz 38:52

So, if we live to a frequency where it is at a causal level where it’s beyond karma, where it is free choice free will, that’s the Akashic, it’s really pure love, pure source, but we have to learn how to do it, and then we have to stay there, and then we open up to a free then that that space really protects us from bringing in a lot of extraneous material, including our own, you know. So, I think that’s the process of refinement.

Candice Wu 39:18

Yeah, absolutely. I was, that does bring me to that, the question. How is this similar different to, for lack of a better word, other psychic gifts and intuitions and clair abilities? And I think that that does answer that to some degree. It’s about the refinement and which space you’re tapping into. Would you say more?

Susan Lipshutz 39:39

Exactly, exactly. And that’s, yes, yes. And so, again, I think in terms of looking at source, I mean, their urge is so many kinds of ways in which we see when we start to look for this material or this understanding all the way back to the Christ consciousness and that sense of when Christ or the, I’m not well versed, but the last years that people speak up around that the journey of this ascension, that was perhaps kind of merging with the Akashic field or light so that then this individual could hold a sense of that deep kind of love and understanding that then came back to teach.

Susan Lipshutz 40:22

But there were around the turn of the century was really when a lot of like Rudolf Steiner and the Theosophical society and that movement and Europe in particular in you know, United Kingdom, coming to the United States, that where is more looking at spirituality and esoteric teachings, and then bringing it in, that we see a lot more writing because there’s a lot of world tradition that then transcends, you know, starts to anchor into the wisdom traditions and Edgar Cayce did a ton of work, you know, around the Akashic field and the Akashic records and reading, and his teachings and his books that he wrote, but the person that I think is just an incredible archivist and individual who’s brought through so much around the Akashic realm, and the Akashic teachings is Ervin Laszlo and he’s in his 90s, and he’s written something like 70 books, and if you, I had the pleasure of being in his presence a couple years ago, as many of his books, he’s extraordinary, and he, if you read about him later, but he was like a child prodigy and music and, and then led him to this interest in thought field, and then systems theory and quantum thinking at a time where no one was really speaking about this, and starting to encounter the Akashic realm and then started to look throughout the world and ultivate people’s experiences and, and really decipher this.

Susan Lipshutz 41:57

A lot of people who are very, very driven in terms of science, so, mathematicians can really understand this once they move into a quantum level, and scientists, so, it’s a science, spirit sort of, you know, esoteric spiritual Arts and Science Arts in that way, but he would talk about a unified field that then played a fundamental role and then bringing it down. So, one thing that he spoke about, and I’m just going to give a little quote, it’s from one of my favorite books called The Akashic Experience, Science and the Cosmic Memory Field by Ervin Laszlo and this is actually what he did is he did a foreword and then he has added chapters from all of these extraordinary teachers around their spontaneous experience with the Akashic, you know, in their lives. And so it’s really, really a lovely, rich sort of book, but that he talks about that when we think about the Akashic as, again, this cosmic memory field.

Susan Lipshutz 42:56

So, he says around the cosmic role and encompassing reality, the unified field is a rediscovery of the ancient concept of Akasha. In ancient India, the Sanskrit word Akasha meant hasmik sky, similar to our concept of space, but Akasha refers not only to space in a modern sense, but also and above all, to the higher sphere of life and existence. The Hindu series believed that all things arise from and re-descend into the cosmic source they call Akasha. It was seen as the first and most fundamental of the five elements. So, air, earth, water, fire, the Akasha, embraced and held the properties of all five elements, and was believed then to conserve the traces of everything that ever happened in space and in time.

Susan Lipshutz 43:51

The Akasha is the enduring memory of the cosmos, the Akashic record. So, when you jump off from that, you see that It holds everything that we’ve ever been through, and then everything that the collective is ever been through, and where we are going. And then the notion, the predication of the Akasha is that when you come into a space, so, if we think about moving through like a biosphere into a new sphere, which is the thought field thought realm, then into this Akashic, it is above all the struggles we’ve been through, and it takes us to a causal level where we’re creators of free choice, free will, like Eckhart Tolle talks about the power of now, you can be in the pain body or the dream body.

Susan Lipshutz 44:40

So, if you step into possibility in that field, and you start to look at everything, you start to see, “Do I really have to keep suffering or can I move into knowledge and through knowledge, can I free what I’ve been through so that when I moved back in with this understanding, I can then start to navigate myself from this place as co-creator?” It doesn’t mean all our challenges are difficult. It’s just a new classroom to move through with them and to start to see all the material we’re looking for.

Susan Lipshutz 45:11

So, I don’t know if that helps explain things, but I love that notion of cosmic sky, and that we carry that in, and then it sort of makes sense that the missing piece for us is that our minds are really caught in a meta journey of what we’ve learned in our three-dimensional world, right? And what the constructs and what we’ve learned about how we’re supposed to move through life and who we are and what our limitations are, what our families mean, and then we start to move up to a whole different level and we take that understanding down, and we can start to work with it in a collaborative way where it doesn’t have such a hold on us, to limit us to limit our thinking then, which is why I think we collapse when we go into these beautiful space of healing, and we go, “Oh my god, I feel so free.” And then like something comes in and says, “Ah, remember, you don’t know how to do this. Remember, you’re not as empowered as you think. Remember, you come from a family that, you know, believes that we’re all strugglers or you know, that we’re suffering, right?”

Candice Wu 46:21

Yeah. This outer world that’s been constructed around it.

Susan Lipshutz 46:25

Exactly, the limited thinking that then draws us back yet. So, I don’t know if that helps.

Candice Wu 46:31

Absolutely. And I was really curious about the bridge. Well, not the bridge, but you know, I’m so glad you brought up the Sanskrit word Akash. And the essential meaning of that, and you know, I’ve studied Ayurveda some and yoga, Tantra and I haven’t really studied the Akash very much, even though that’s been a part of things, but I love this piece of what you’re bringing in this definition of it makes so much sense. And I, I’m curious, to me, it feels like there might, all maybe this is just fed through the mind-stuff, you know, that there’s some sort of gap between where the knowledge began or at least we think it did through ancient India, you know, through people seeing this, seeing and sensing and being in this realm, making contact with it as their way of being and the way it’s come delivered to maybe the Western more Western world that it seems newer, too. Do you feel like there’s a gap there or what is in between that space of time?

Susan Lipshutz 47:46

I think what’s be well, I think it was a loss of appreciating the sacred in order to build what we also needed, you know, you know, every, I don’t think this is exclusive to. I think that there are many teachings where we see I was just mentioning, for example, earth-honoring teachings, whether it’s the in North American traditions, whether it’s in South American, so the Americas, whether it’s an African, whether it’s a Middle Eastern, whether you know all the points of the world because America is such another than the indigenous, the native to America, you know, America is a young country in industrialized country in that way, but I think we don’t want to romanticize ancient teachings because there was also a great deal of challenge in those ways as well, but I think in terms of the understanding, I think that there was when we were living more by the land and we were living more by, this is where I guess moon cycles and astrology comes in.

Susan Lipshutz 48:55

When you look at every single culture, every mystical, but also just culture, when you go to sacred sites around the world, there’s always a place where you see that there was a respect for and a charting and a marking where the moon was, where Venus was, where the sundials, you know, like observatories, because they lived by charting and tracking the moon cycles, the planting, you know, all the solstices, the equinoxes, everything was in relationship to the cosmic, to the sky in order to live. So, there was a respect for the fact that we living, even we didn’t understand what all the different nuances about the earth but we knew we lived at, in order to live on the earth, we had to appreciate and respect the sky, right? The cycles, the cycles of life, and to be connected to that, and we lived in a way that was more symbolic in that sense as well.

Susan Lipshutz 49:56

So, every single tradition when you look at all the signs, right? So, the Northern Isles of the ruins are you look and you go and you see all of these symbols, and what I love what I teach in the records, they tell everybody that you, that everything is held in the records. Everything’s held in the realm. So, the more you open up to your symbolic mind, so, you open up to where do you see symbols everywhere. Everywhere you look like when you’re in parts of the world, and you look at the weavings or you look at their art, everything in there is embedded their story through symbol.

Susan Lipshutz 50:29

So, we start to open up and see that the signs that we really want to remember to, that like you talk about the bridges that are lost, because as we got more logical, right, as we got more as their maps had to do with logic and reason and schooling and education, even though there was something really interesting right to learn and to create a common language that’s and to grow to say, yeah, the earth is not flat. I mean, there are beautiful ways we start to meet each other and there are ways in which we can have technology and we don’t have to, you know, use our as much as we can carry the water in a little place, we can start to pipe the water in and move the water right. So, there really are beautiful advancements that resulted in us becoming interested in learning and growing and building. It’s just that we lost, we have disconnected value that started then to become archaic and old fashioned, and superstitious, and then scary.

Susan Lipshutz 51:25

So, the other piece of why do we lost this is that people have mystical power, at first, you would see that these were the seers, right? These were the ones that were on the court that would always say, “Okay, bring in the prophecies or bring in those who could bring in the remedies, bringing the wit,” you know, and then they became scary. They’ve started to, and that was religion, that was modern religion started to say, “No, no, you’ve got to cut these people off because they’re bringing in, they’re bringing in dark forces,” because then people wanted to control people. So, it is really a journey of power, and diminishing the sacred and diminishing the esoteric, and diminishing the women. And it was the women in the indigenous that all got thrown under the bus that they became ousted, right?

Susan Lipshutz 52:13

So, we all if we all in past lives have this mastery, we also have the past life memory of when we were sent out of the garden, so to speak. So, so this is the retrieval, right? So it’s, that’s why we don’t believe in it. So, we have to open up all of our fear around it, and we have to realize that in the mystery, in the esoteric, in the signs. When we let our mind open up to the symbols, we start to open up and we start to bring it into the logical mind that can transcribe it, and then we have the opening of the bridging, if that makes any sense, and it all its political, its religious, right? It’s spiritual.

Candice Wu 52:55

Yeah, it’s everything.

Susan Lipshutz 52:56

It’s everything. It’s everything. It’s the Akashic it holds it. That’s what I love it because, you know, I’ve done so much training myself in all these different traditions, and then I walk in the Akasha, can I go? Yeah, it’s above gender, it’s above lineage. It’s above, like, it’s everything. And so then, you as an individual can find your own, you know, ancestry, your own belief system, everything that you want is inside of there, but it’s held in a much bigger way. So, we just really can take off in some ways all the rules and move into a space where the only rule is intention, is that you’re really seeking highest and that you’re coming from a very, very clear understanding of love and truth. So it’s that, that sort of guides us. So, I do a two-pronged process where I do a preamble so to speak, that has to do with where we’re operating from, and in bringing that attunement of the Akashic field into our bodies because the bodies hold our record when we’re human in our ourselves, and then opening up the records of this like library.

Susan Lipshutz 54:06

A lot of us will go places in the world where we can feel that spontaneous experience, kind of like we’re having this download of everything, and that’s because those are those places that have not had so much dense sort of, you know, rebuilding or a diminishment, you know, so places it can be just our own backyard, but it can also be places that are sacred sites. So, like, if we go to Machu Picchu or we go to the Himalayas or we go to Chichén Itzá, where we go, you know, to the waters, certain places, wherever it might be, that we can feel where there’s this intersection between the sacred and the intersection between the nature and the holding of that, that bridge.

Candice Wu 54:51

That’s so wonderful. Thank you, Susan.

Susan Lipshutz 54:54

I know you felt it. I mean, you travel so much.

Candice Wu 54:57

Yeah, I do and it’s um, it’s lovely. To hear you speak in this way about the Akashic. For me, it wasn’t until recently that I experienced the Akash like I had a relationship with it in a more formal way, I guess is through the, like explicit understanding of it, but I have come to find it in myself in other ways, in my own gifts, and so it’s nice to have that matchup and also refined in ways by learning from you and other people. And yeah, I’ve definitely had my experiences of going to places and feeling the energy of that space that can bridge something for me or show me another piece of something.

Susan Lipshutz 55:45

Yeah, yeah. We have this awakened experience and then the challenges, somehow integrating it because it’s a much higher frequency. And so then bringing it to a much denser frequency which is our bodies and then, you know, our emotional realm and our psychological or thought field. So, to be patient and letting that kind of start to move through and blower systems out, but to just let it come down, the mountain top and then like, you know, of course, it’s like the Charlton Heston version of the commandments, but, you know, he would come down with like white hair and his, you know, sandals are blown up or something like, yeah, you’re putting your finger in a live wire, it’s like…

Candice Wu 56:31

I do experience that sometimes, though. Like it’s download, and I’m like, “Whoa,” it feels like my hair is shooting out from my head, you know. How can I explain to my family, I’m like, I just got a download of something and like to feel this. I just feel like all this energy moving through my body and they’re just looking at me like, no.

Susan Lipshutz 56:53

Our crazy family member. Yeah.

Candice Wu 56:57

That’s me.

Susan Lipshutz 56:58

That’s you, and I reframe it: as people say, I was always the black sheep. Like, I know you’re the rainbow sheep.

Candice Wu 57:04

Oh, the rainbow.

Susan Lipshutz 57:09

Yeah, it’s and I will tell people when you’re for sure when you’re starting to work with this, you need to definitely be taking like magnesium and electrolytes and, you know, definitely so and move through because you can burn out your nervous system and then because, you know, again, this is where the esoteric speak that can sound you know, like, “Oh my God this person,” but you know, getting back into I think a more generalized way when you’re saying about bridges, I think more people certainly when they’re doing yoga, we have more conversation than we’ve ever had about chakras. So, I would pair for everybody.

Susan Lipshutz 57:43

When you’re at the fifth chakra, because you think about the first three chakras are personal chakras. The fourth chakra is a bridge between personal chakras, interactive chakras, that’s the epicenter, right? But then from the heart chakra when you go up to the fifth chakra which is felt to be. So, if the first chakra is earth and the second shock was water and the third is fire, and the fourth is, you know air, the fifth is ethers and ether is the Akashic, because the fifth chakra holds that gateway not only to our voice but also up to the ascended, so, the sixth and the seventh, which means it’s the time where we start to have our relationship to our divine self, to our master guides to knowledge itself.

Susan Lipshutz 58:25

So, the Akashic is a more rarefied air, just like ethers. It’s like when we’re up in the mountain tops, and we have that rarefied air where we have like, you know, we can have altitude sickness, but it’s the higher altitude where there is just, you know, it’s almost like you know when you’re at those places where your literally touching clouds. So, when you can think of it and the chakra system, and you think about when you’re working with your fifth chakra, even though we talk about the repression of the voice and opening up our authenticity and our integrity, all of that is true and it’s opening us up to the cosmic currency. So, that’s the real gateway to the Akashic. And so, you can see it really simply when you’re familiar with it, with the chakras, it’s a way to place it on your body map.

Candice Wu 59:13

Mm-hmm. That’s lovely. Thank you, Susan. Yeah. And I want to hear about your upcoming retreat.

Susan Lipshutz 59:20

Oh, absolutely. So, now we’re going into another…

Candice Wu 59:23

Yeah.

Susan Lipshutz 59:23

Another…

Candice Wu 59:24

Shift gears that kind of quickly.

Susan Lipshutz 59:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Candice Wu 59:28

Yes, another layer.

Susan Lipshutz 59:30

Another layer. So, yeah, I have an annual, for lack of better word intentional communities. And you know, my passion and my commitment and my dedication is really to the healing, empowerment, and evolution of the feminine as a sacred activator, so to speak. And so, one of the ways that I really love to do that is doing a deep dive where we can have a space to step out of time, like the Akashic and do some work together, as a community, as a collective, and really hold space for each other and have this magical, you know, experience that is one that where we can shift something inside of ourselves.

Susan Lipshutz 1:00:08

And so, this is our 20th annual gathering and it had experiences of different locations, and we’re repeating we went last year to Santa Fe, and we’re returning to Santa Fe and actually have a, something that I wrote about that I’m going to have on my blast this, that’ll be coming up at this point, it will have already been out, but it has to do with why I have such a, you know, my individual experience that’s so special with Santa Fe, at from an Akashic point of view, we all have places that are very, that we have agreements or soul connection with. And so, for me, one of those places is in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Susan Lipshutz 1:00:42

And so, this will be a retreat, and it’s a repeat retreat coming up from April 30th to May 3rd and women that are interested in this can just hop on my website or through Instagram. On Link Tree, there’s a link right there. Facebook also has a Facebook and then those are platforms you can find me and so, it’s just gonna be a beautiful three-day, like Thursday night to Sunday afternoon. This particular theme is the, has to do with liberating our soul voice, which is very timely from what we were just talking about. And so it’s a, it’s just going to be a really beautiful time to be together and to do some meaningful work, thematically, that then allows us some ceremonial processing and process and individual collective work.

Susan Lipshutz 1:01:23

And also, I love to take us to places where because a lot of women don’t have a lot of money. And so this is sort of a vacation, too. So, we do a lot of work but we do it we’re also taken care of. So, the land is really incredible, and the food is really great and the beds are really wonderful and you know, so we just feel nurtured and nourished so you don’t only leave spiritually fulfilled, and feel really animated and activated to bring forth what you’ve learned about yourself and your what you want to bring forth in your world and your family in your life, but also you feel a real deep sense of restoration for your physical self and self-care, which is women, we’re just, you know, we can leak so we can do a lot of massages and stuff, but we have to really go into the source of ourselves to start to feel like we can hold the nourishment, and I feel like we really do that. So, anybody who’s interested in that, I’d love to have you come so, you know, if we still have spaces, please just jump in and grab one and come be with us.

Candice Wu 1:02:22

That sounds beautiful, Susan, and it’s your 20th year of doing this 20th retreat year 2020 2020.

Susan Lipshutz 1:02:29

2020!

Candice Wu 1:02:30

I just can’t help but you know, with the mental idea of 2020 in vision, seeing…

Susan Lipshutz 1:02:37

New decade.

Candice Wu 1:02:38

A new decade.

Susan Lipshutz 1:02:39

…to move into. Yeah.

Candice Wu 1:02:41

Beautiful. This has been amazing to have you talk about, everything you talked about today. It’s very inspiring and opening. Is there anything else you’d like to share today?

Susan Lipshutz 1:02:55

I’ve just really appreciated taking the time to speak with you and I really want to honor you for the amount of your dedication and the amount of material that you so generously curate, and bring forth to the collective so that they can receive this and take that in, in a way that’s meaningful for them to digest it in the, you know, in their homes, and you know, and podcasts are also in their bathtubs and cars.

Candice Wu 1:03:27

On the toilet.

Susan Lipshutz 1:03:30

Okay, we can go there. Replace the sacred.

Candice Wu 1:03:34

Yeah.

Susan Lipshutz 1:03:36

But really that intimacy and you know, the privilege of that, and you just do such an exquisite job and you’re so dedicated, and you have so much, so much gentleness that you bring to such intense work. And so, you know, I really want to honor you and the retreats that you offer and your individual work and so just the bounce and all that good stuff back to you, too. Thank you for that. You really do a service for everyone.

Candice Wu 1:04:03

Thank you so much, Susan. That’s, that really means a lot coming from you, and I just, I want to go to your retreat. That’s what I want to say right now. I may, I do have a soul contract with Santa Fe, I believe I have some. There’s a lot of energy there for me and around Albuquerque.

Susan Lipshutz 1:04:22

So you got it?

Candice Wu 1:04:23

Yeah, yeah. Well, I also had a reading from an Astro cartographer not too long ago, and he had confirmed that so that was really cool that my intuition was right on about it, based on what he had shared with me, too, but thank you so much for all that you do, all that you bring, and how you bring people together in such a beautiful, loving, mystical and mysterious way, like in the best way of mystery, and touching into for every person and the collective who we really are and what we’re doing here, it’s really magical to see you work and know you and I’m so grateful.

Susan Lipshutz 1:05:09

Thank you so much.

Candice Wu 1:05:10

And I know so many women out there are, thank you, and the world.

Susan Lipshutz 1:05:14

Oh, it’s my pleasure and I do work with men, too, but just you know, the collective ways is really more dedicated for women, but I would say to whoever’s listening, you know, if you want to write me at Susan@everydaymedicinewoman.com and you feel called to do some sessions, I work in this way, and an integrative psychotherapy and consultation and fold all this into the degree that people are open and receptive, and I do that with people throughout the world or in-person in Chicago. So, you know, just to let users know that that’s possible as well.

Candice Wu 1:05:47

That’s wonderful

Susan Lipshutz 1:05:48

So, thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate this time.

Candice Wu 1:05:52

I appreciate you being here, Susan, and I know everyone can find you at your website, Everydaymedicinewoman.com. You’re also on Instagram and Facebook, is that right?

Susan Lipshutz 1:06:02

That’s right.

Candice Wu 1:06:03

Wonderful. Thank you, Susan. It’s been such a pleasure.

Susan Lipshutz 1:06:07

Thank you, mine as well.

Candice Wu 1:06:11

Susan, thank you so much for joining us on the show you are an absolute rainbow sheep and you just bring a rainbow of colorful gifts and abilities that spark the rainbow in me. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you all out there for listening, and I hope that you found something interesting and inspiring for you, something that sparks the next thing for you or an interest for you or whatever you take from it, enjoy that. Be sure to check out Susan’s retreat that is still open and available for you. If you are a woman and interested in it, check out the link on the show notes at CandiceWu.com/susan.

Candice Wu 1:06:57

And just a reminder that The Ally With Death Experiential is on sale until January 6, 2020. So, it’ll help you cleanse out and end this decade, like crazy this decade and step into 2020 with a clear vision, with 2020 vision, that’s at CandiceWu.com/death. And I’m wishing you all just a lovely day. Enjoy today. Take good care of yourself and see what you need for yourself today.

Candice Wu 1:07:30

Just a drop in note about my website that there are all of the experientials and meditations for you to search on the database at CandiceWu.com/meditations. So, if you’re looking for something on self-love or something to support, healing, trauma, intuition, whatever it is that you’re wanting for yourself or needing, you can search there and see what shows up. Also, the podcast has its own database and CandiceWu.com/podcast, and you can also search for topics that you’re interested in. I always recommend just tuning in and plugging into what you really feel is right for you, what you’re called to, what shows up for you.

Candice Wu 1:08:17

Thanks so much for joining us and looking forward to seeing you next time here on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

In the words of our guest today, Roxanne Partridge, to all y’all soul working women befriending your shadows, liberating clustered golden eggs, unearthing buried vessels of vitality, lubricating cutthroats with song, cleansing bones of patriarchy, rewiring your birthright to love into the light of your eyes and the fiber of your being, and rebirthing yourself with your blood, I see you.

Candice Wu 0:27

Roxanne works with menstruality, sexuality, empowerment, and embodiment from the depths up and out.

Candice Wu 0:38

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing and self-love. My name is Candice Wu and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:13

Hey, it’s wonderful to have you here today. It is the first month of December 2019. Wow, we are headed into the depths of winter for some places in the world and how fitting because we’re talking a lot about the darkness and depths within ourselves here in this episode with Roxanne Partridge. She is the founder of Embody Period, which has many meanings, which you’ll hear about in this episode.

Candice Wu 1:47

I have a couple of announcements before we jump into everything, first, this episode is the 100th episode of the Embody Podcast. 100, that means it’s the hundredth episode but that doesn’t include the experiential and meditations that are held under as an umbrella of the main episodes. So the main episodes are up to 100, so that is a big accomplishment for this podcast. And for me, it’s been just wonderful doing this podcast and coming up with ideas, sharing, and putting my voice out there in this way. I thank you so much for all of you who have in some way fueled this podcast to continue forward and to have the life and love that it does. All of you listening, all of you sharing the podcast with someone, a friend or client who may benefit just remembering it and tuning in once in a while or if you are a consistent listener, and if you have supported the podcast in any way with monetary donations, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. And you are all here. I invite you all to celebrate with me the hundredth episode.

Candice Wu 3:14

I have another piece to share but this one is of a different tone. I want to share that Silver, the horse that I connected with at Silver Horse Retreat with Sarah Fancy, my mentor for Horse Constellations, Silver has passed away. If you’ve been following my podcast, you might have already heard about Silver and how he, the second morning I was there on retreat with Sarah and the horses, that he went down, he was lying down and he couldn’t get up because his leg was stuck in a part of the barrier, the fence and she had to pull him out and he like huffed and puffed and finally got on his legs. It was crouching down and then bounced off the railing, and then he was fine. And she was worried at that time that he was getting old and maybe it was going to pass soon but he lived on for another, think, six to eight months after that up until just last week.

Candice Wu 4:18

In another podcast, I’ve shared about my meditations with him and Horse Constellation experiences with him. I’ll link those in the show notes if you want to hear about my experiences and take this time to honor Silver with me. There are three main episodes that highlight my experiences with Silver or stories about him through Sarah and those are at CandiceWu.com/dancingwithhorses or CandiceWu.com/horseconstellations, or CandiceWu.com/sarafancy.

Candice Wu 4:54

And right now I’d like to take this moment to honor Silver, to thank him for his love and presence, connection, and all of the lives and souls and hearts that he’s touched, including mine. He lived, I believe 35 long years of life, and outlived many other horses, according to Sarah, and I am just so blessed that he was on Earth at a time that I got to meet him and share the time together.

Candice Wu 5:27

I will never forget the time I was trying to bring him up to this smaller arena and there was a little trail, a rocky trail that went upward to get to this space and I had taken the wrong way up and he was telling me “No” because he refused to go up it. And at some point, he gave in. I was really patient, but he gave in and said, Okay, let’s do this and sure enough, it was the wrong way and it was this disaster of going uphill. And so I ended up just going back down, of course the right way and at that point, he did not want to go back up and so I chose to listen and we walked together back towards his normal space and we just stayed outside of it. But we stood there and meditated for about 35 minutes just standing there, neither of us even made any moves and we had this beautiful meditation experience, standing in presence together. Even though there was hay on the ground, he wasn’t bothered or interested, he was just with me. We were together and it was magical.

Candice Wu 6:48

Thank you, Silver and I’m sending you my blessings on your journey and may you be in peace and love.

Candice Wu 6:59

Before we jump into the episode, it’s also fitting that the Ally with Death experiential, which is now an audio experience is out there, it is alive despite the name of death. But it is perfectly fitting for the cycles of life and death that we speak too, here in this episode, the cycle of your period, the cycle of your moon cycle, that’s your personal moon cycle and the collective moon cycles, the cycle of life and death that reflect itself through the seasonal shifts, and here, getting into the underbellies of winter.

Candice Wu 7:40

This guided audio experience is beautiful because it features music, hand pan music by artist Larry Saint Germain, who tailored the music to this specific experience to stir and shake up the blood, the stagnancy, the life force in you, anything that needs to die or be let go of what wants to be seen through you, through your soul, through your Spirit, through your body, your mind, and what wants to die off so that there can be more space for life itself, for being, for your vital core essence and the luminosity of yourself that wants to shine through on this next step of your life.

Candice Wu 8:28

And here we are, a month away from 2020 where we’re stepping into another decade of life, well, for some. So, here when we embrace death, that natural cycle of what wants to end and what needs to be looked at inside of us gets it space, gets it’s tending to and attention and love, where it fertilizes the soil for what’s coming up in your life and for beauty to be created in what’s coming, in what’s going to be revealed, all set to music that will support you in embodying this shift and transmitting the energies within yourself so that you can fully, with full-body, move forward into what is coming up for you in purposeful, meaningful experience.

Candice Wu 9:20

A shout out too, also Chris Spiegl, who produced and edited that experiential and spent his artistic attention to crafting the sounds and my voice to go together in a way that stimulates and invokes, conjures up what wants to come forward. You can find this experiential at CandiceWu.com/death and if you jump on now or soon, there’s a sale there for you, it is great as a gift to yourself or as a gift to clients, friends, family, people around you that might benefit from it as well. Again, that’s at CandiceWu.com/death.

Candice Wu 10:05

So this episode was super fun and there’s an added element of surprise here in this episode, where you’ll find out something about me and about Roxanne that connects us. It’s a very binding force between us of resonance.

Candice Wu 10:20

Roxanne Partridge is known for inspiring and guiding others into embodying their unique sustainable fullness. Women, menstruators, and individuals that seek a safe and healing and inclusive space to explore menstruality, sexuality, and embodied identity are empowered through her in-depth and creative approach. She just radiates juicy, soulful play and depth, and I absolutely love talking with her. She’s a healer, scholar, activist and has lectured and facilitated workshops in various locations as well as through her private practice and she’s also an advocate for equal rights to imagination, for images of female embodied experience.

Candice Wu 11:16

She’s informed by feminist post union liberational, archetypal, and eco psychological theory and practices and attends to the nuances of experience in the context of daily life, cultural and familial backgrounds, manifestations of the unconscious, such as dreams. She received her clinical hypnotherapy certification from the Santa Barbara Institute of hypnotherapy and trained with the revolutionary sex therapist, Gina Ogden, in her medicine wheel method of relational sexuality, and received her Ph.D. in Depth Psychology from Pacifica Graduate Institute in California. Her background in holistic therapies and the arts form a creative container for deep and catalytic work.

Candice Wu 12:08

So, you’re in for a treat here. Feel free to grab a candle and a cup of tea or something that just makes you feel in your own aliveness or makes you feel in some sense of beauty, and enjoy.

Candice Wu 12:31

So, Roxanne, we’re here together. Are you there? Okay.

Roxanne Partridge 12:39

Hi. I’m here.

Candice Wu 12:43

You’re there. We both have our candles burning. I’ve got a cup of tea, and my salt light on, salt lamp on. And it’s just so delightful to be here with you today.

Roxanne Partridge 12:56

Same here.

Candice Wu 13:00

I just took a look at your Instagram and I just love looking at your Instagram like the juicy images and luscious words that you write and just feel so much from your soul and your gut and your being, that these words feel like they always in someplace in me and live in and awaken more of me and you, just your work inspires and guides people to bring forward they’re natural and wild and Goddess self and their sexual essence and who they are. I can’t wait to talk to you about this.

Roxanne Partridge 13:50

I love that that’s your experience, looking at my Instagram account. One thing I love about that platform is that it is so image-forward, you know, and having such wonderful access to art and a way for me, it feels like a way of, kind of watering the imagination for what’s possible, you know?

Candice Wu 14:21

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 14:22

To imagine like, you’re saying like a to give representation, excuse me, to parts of ourselves that we may not even fully know but sense. And you know what I mean like, to, to find an image that maybe is surprising or strange but somehow compelling and resonates with some experience, whether it’s like, you know, an experience of cyclicity an experience of like, a sexual sort of sense of identity and having it be reflected back. Because I feel like there can be such I mean, within patriarchy, right? Imagination, embodied imagination for women is often kind of stuck in a corner behind a door that says something like, you know, for reproduction only or crazy, or —

Candice Wu 15:33

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 15:33

You know, it’s just a social construct or something, you know.

Candice Wu 15:38

Right.

Roxanne Partridge 15:39

And how to, like, give it some more space and, you know, wander around and how it wants to speak. And like you said, the kind of messiness of that.

Candice Wu 15:51

Yeah, you know, there’s such a, like a cleaned-up version through patriarchy that you, I often find myself like breaking down in my mind around like, how we even like, the spaces and words were using. How we even let all of that imagination just go full out. In a way, I don’t think I’m describing this well, but I’m just thinking of like, nature, like, being out in nature and breaking down the wall of where we think that good work is or where we think we can do things and experience it in. I don’t even know if I’m making any sense to myself, but that’s what came up. And let’s just shift back to your work of menstrual sexual empowered embodiment and the depth up and out is what — ahm — These are your words and I love to hear from you how you see your work and what you do.

Roxanne Partridge 17:02

Yeah, thank you.

Roxanne Partridge 17:07

Yeah, from the depths, up and out. Some of what that means to me is well, from the depths it’s like the depths of psyche, the depths of soul, the depths of our body, is the kind of underworldly experiences that are of our unconscious, of our dream world at night when we’re sleeping, the parts of ourselves that may not have a lot of representation in our day to day lives and ways of creatively like inviting and befriending and welcoming those parts of ourselves that are in the depths, and getting to know who they are, who’s here? What do they need? What’s their story? And what happens as they begin to meet the waking life versions of ourselves. And I sometimes refer to this as this kind of like inner social justice work of getting to know —

Candice Wu 18:32

Yes, that makes so much sense.

Roxanne Partridge 18:34

You know, like, really befriending the marginalized parts of our psyche. And so that’s kind of what the depths means for me and what it’s like to come up and out of the depths, to rise up from the underworld, from the darkness, and find footing on the topsoil and be integrated into our day to day life and how that can change the landscape of things.

Roxanne Partridge 19:03

And in my experience for myself and also with the women I work with, usually what this begins to look like is a way greater experience of aliveness and like a real, full sense of direction that’s grounded in like, kind of our psychic roots, if you will.

Candice Wu 19:32

That’s beautiful.

Candice Wu 19:40

Your words here, about your paradigm of seeing where you see troublesome, emotional and behavioral symptoms, suffering, questions of identity instead of seeing it that way, you’re seeing that as an invitation into a deeper and wider understanding of your personal purpose, potential healing, transformation and embodied autonomy.

Candice Wu 20:09

I love these words and something that happened for us right before we started recording makes us all click because I was like, did I like, that sounds like something I want to try it. Would you like to share what you just —

Roxanne Partridge 20:28

Oh yes. So, you know, Candice, when I began to look at your work and listen to your podcasts and read your Instagram posts and the words on your website, I was like, so familiar and when we first arrange to talk and we scheduled a time, you know, I discovered we have, you and I have, like, the same exact birthday, and that we were both born the same year, on the spring equinox.

Candice Wu 21:11

It just blows my mind. I mean, I’ve met people with the same birthday before but not someone like you.

Roxanne Partridge 21:21

Oh my god! It was just, I mean, like I said, it’s so uncanny to me, like the modalities that you’ve been drawn to, the way the ideas that you synthesize, your emphasis as well as the embodiment and embodying your nature. And for me, my version of that is Embody Period with a dot at the end to have a little menstrual pun there, but it’s also like, yeah, embodiment full stop, you know, like —

Candice Wu 21:53

Yes.

Roxanne Partridge 21:54

That’s what this is all about. Yeah, you know, and that emergent kind of energy that is, especially in this part of the world, where we have four seasons of like, you know, coming out of winter and coming up, you know, and that kind of Persephone-Demeter type of story of emerging from the underworld and so towards life and new beginnings and restoration and all of that, your work speaks to that, feels so resonant to what is, you know, the ground of what I do as well and it’s just incredible to have this kind of day that we share together, be recognized, you know.

Candice Wu 22:51

It absolutely is. I’m just like, I’m still a little in awe about it and it’s so touching. It’s so cool to meet you. I mean, this isn’t the first time but to discover this together and to really see the resonance in your work and who you are. It’s amazing. Just amazing. Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 23:21

It was so cool. I haven’t met that many people with the same, I’ve met people like the day before or after. You know, and just to feel that, like, shared, I don’t know what it feels like for you. But for me it just, it feels like just part of the fiber of my being, you know, to like this energy that starts to stir as soon as we enter the month of March. It’s just like, bigger than me.

Candice Wu 23:50

Yeah, well, and I just had my astrology read. I have someone I work with every couple of months just to check in and see what’s going on in the planetary shifts and I didn’t, maybe like, ten years ago, eight years ago, I didn’t really believe in astrology very much or just didn’t have a connection and so much more than ever, it makes sense to me. And is so much just clicks with what’s already happening with what my astrologer says and how I already see that happening in my life. And so, when you shared this with me, it just, it brought all that up, this sense of how well orchestrated everything is in this universe and us being born on the same day within six hours apart. We have, you know, two different ways of expression and yet so much similarity and I know I have a moon in Gemini, so that must mean you have a moon in Gemini.

Candice Wu 25:00

You know, for those of you who know what that means, makes sense to why we’re here in this way, in our lives, I think.

Roxanne Partridge 25:09

Yeah. So sweet. Thanks for finding me.

Candice Wu 25:17

Maybe you found me in some way because it felt like, it felt, yeah —

Roxanne Partridge 25:23

Yeah.

Candice Wu 25:23

Both ends. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Candice Wu 25:27

Well, so that really brings me to this question of how did you get to this place on your journey today and what you do and who you are.

Roxanne Partridge 25:41

Yeah. Oh, so many ways to answer.

Candice Wu 25:46

I know it’s a giant question. That’s just not fair. Is it?

Roxanne Partridge 25:51

No, it’s okay. Let me feel into that.

Roxanne Partridge 26:00

It truly feels like a calling that has been sounding within me for as long as I can remember and what I like in that calling, being, mean and kind of fine-tuning it over the years, but it always was being in a space with women and listening to stories. And from a really early age, you know, I’m talking about elementary school years, women of all different ages would tell me their stories and I would hold it, I would sit in that space and yeah, at times, it was definitely a lot for seven years old or something till —

Candice Wu 26:58

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 26:59

But there was also a part of me that was like, Yeah, like I’m ready for this. And there’s always this kind of, I grew up with a lot of esoteric and mystical conversation around the dinner table largely held by my uncles on my father’s side of the family and some family friends. My mom has a best friend who was a midwife and she would come and stay at her house sometimes when she had a birth nearby and I would just stay at the kitchen table with them for hours and hours and listen to her stories of being at birth and her stories of her worldview of like, kind of why we’re here and the soulfulness and purposefulness of our life journey. And it all just kind of made sense to me.

Roxanne Partridge 28:04

I have always been drawn to poetry and art and soul work and the animated world. So in that way it was oh, there was a groundwork. I think that was just kind of there and I’ve definitely done a lot of different things at different points in my life and I’ve traveled a lot and I’ve wandered and when I entered into the field of depth psychology, I think that’s when everything kind of began to take the shape that things are in now.

Roxanne Partridge 28:54

When I found the field of Depth Psychology, I really felt like this kind of homecoming, I was like, okay, like this is the language that articulates what I just kind of know to be possible like this is a way that embraces my own experience, embraces what I felt was calling at me behind like the eyes and the stories of women and a lot of that like, coming from archetypal psychology and like union, psychological framework, and liberation psychology is this idea of a pluralistic psyche and that we contain like a multitude of selves within and a kind of mythopoetics of soul in personifying our different parts of ourselves, you know, like that in our social justice work I mentioned earlier and how healing and liberating it is to acknowledge that there is soul-making happening and let’s say premenstrual experience, which I suppose you know, and I say that since menstruality is an emphasis of my work and I guess another way that brought me here is being witness to really difficult menstrual experience growing up and also being witness to male or patriarchal like, reduction of a woman to her menstruality and the way that menstrual experience is so often reduced to hormones. You know, the female —

Candice Wu 31:20

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 31:21

Hysterical nature, like these types of things. And, like always knowing like, that’s just, that’s not it. Like, that’s not the full story and recognizing now like, there’s so much research that supports us that you know, these things don’t happen. Our menstrual selves don’t exist in a vacuum and that our psyche, you know that there’s, I’m going to pause right here if that’s okay.

Candice Wu 32:04

I don’t think so. I think you’re talking about the juicy stuff, you know. But yeah, you shared a lot. And yeah, let’s just take a pause together.

Roxanne Partridge 32:14

Yeah.

Candice Wu 32:23

Are you interested in sharing what that experience of being witness to a painful menstrual experience was like for you?

Roxanne Partridge 32:34

Yeah. It’s funny when I began writing my dissertation, which is largely on this idea of menstrual imagination, and I was examining what my own transference was to the topic. I had this kind of hand to forehead moment where I was like, Oh, right. You know, I mean, I thought like initially, the topic of my research shifted from embodied sexuality and this kind of relationship between sexuality and ecopsychology and our relationship to the earth and it shifted literally overnight to menstruality, on a night that I was painfully bleeding and decided to have a conversation with my uterus. And that was the turning point. But as I, you know, and when I addressed my uterus and all this pain and asked it, you know, just as I would a dream image like, Who are you? What’s here? What’s going on? What do you need? What I met was this kind of mourners, like, someone who was in mourning and had been in mourning for a very long time. And they were mourning, this image was mourning the loss of meaning. And I sat with that and I was like, I don’t know what this means, but I just need to sit next to this mourner as best as I can. And I had already started a dissertation proposal on a whole different topic and I canned it and I was like, I don’t know what this is. This is exciting. This feels necessary and hard and this is what I’m going to do.

Candice Wu 34:54

Yeah.

Candice Wu 34:57

Thank goodness.

Roxanne Partridge 34:58

Yeah. And as I started to sit with that further and be like, Okay, what do I already, what’s already here? That was the hand to forehead moment of like, oh, like, I grew up with my father pathologizing my mother and her moods, her unhappiness, essentially, you know, anything she did or say that he didn’t like.

Roxanne Partridge 35:31

He would throw under the umbrella of PMDD, premenstrual dysphoric disorder. Mind you. My father is not a psychologist or a psychiatrist —

Candice Wu 35:44

Like, wait a minute. Why is a DSM language there?

Roxanne Partridge 35:52

Yeah and this was like before the age of Google too, so I don’t know where or how he picked up this term.

Candice Wu 36:02

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 36:05

And, but he found it. And I remember one time being a little kid and my parents had argued that my mom had, like, gotten a car and drove off to like, blow off steam, get some air. I was so upset. And he said, you know, Roxanne, one day, I’ll tell you like, what this is all about, like, one day, I’ll let you in kind of on this secret. And I really held on to that. I was like, ah, like, there’s a reason for all of this. You know, there’s a reason why they fight. And I held on to it and he’s like when you get older, I’ll tell you and so years passed and I remember this and I go up to him like dad, you know, remember when you said XYZ, like what, what was like, what’s the secret? And he started laughing. He’s like, Oh, it’s just that, you know, she’s getting her period.

Candice Wu 37:04

Oh, what was your reaction?

Roxanne Partridge 37:11

Oh, I was so pissed. And I don’t know, probably about 14, 15 maybe when he told me this. And I had my period, I got my period when I was nine. So I just felt my anger in that moment, which I didn’t even really fully expressed to him because I didn’t really feel like there was a point but, it was just the silencing of what I saw of my mother’s experience. And all of her different needs that weren’t being met, her unresolved traumas like the context of her life basically, and how that was showing up in their arguments, and whether or not this was at all timed with her cycle, I don’t know. And she doesn’t know, she, as many women, didn’t pay attention to her cyclicity and, you know, didn’t know what phase she was in from another which is, you know, a very usual situation. But the story of it, you know of, oh, mom’s upset because she is hormonal, because she’s premenstrual, because since menstruation has been thought of like, the marker of womanhood. It’s because she’s a woman. And It just felt so binding to me. And —

Candice Wu 39:06

Absolutely.

Roxanne Partridge 39:08

Yeah. So that was very much a part of the day to day life of growing up and really seeing just the limited space for representation to what my mom was experiencing and just how there wasn’t any kind of befriending or curiosity or acceptance or conversation or relating going on to the different parts of herself that wanted to be met.

Candice Wu 39:45

And how different it would be if the secret that your dad wanted to share was like your mom is going through this magical time. This, like, every month, and maybe I don’t get it. But it’s like, alive and there’s life-giving quality there and who knows what’s happening in this magical beautiful way? That would have been a whole different story.

Roxanne Partridge 40:17

Whole different story, yeah, absolutely.

Candice Wu 40:21

Wow.

Roxanne Partridge 40:22

And so, that, I know, attending to that and understand what this was kind of this menstrual backdrop.

Candice Wu 40:36

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 40:37

You know, and realizing too, like, you know, it definitely exists in my family and I think it is very alive in our culture of, you know, if a woman has a strong feeling or thought or opinion, you know, how the cycle or cyclicity is like, weaponized to silence or dismiss or devalue.

Candice Wu 41:10

Yeah, it’s rampant.

Roxanne Partridge 41:14

And so, of what it’s like to make space for a completely different approach like you’re suggesting, you know, like, that magic, a whole different way of welcoming in the cycle. And so like, that’s part of like, the personal motivation for me again, knowing that, like, of the personal experience of my mom, and then just knowing how historically this is such a common story, of really making space to listen and get to know who shows up at different phases of the cycle, all phases. And, one thing that I lead my clients through is getting to know their various menstrual selves and the premenstrual self as she may show up in different ways every cycle and how sometimes she can be this kind of dark informant as I like to say, you know? Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 42:39

Her message may be raw.

Candice Wu 42:42

Yes.

Roxanne Partridge 42:42

It may be screaming. And, what it’s like not to judge her or reduce her to hormones but to really be curious about her.

Candice Wu 42:58

I think that is so important, you know, even women that, and myself, I’ve done it with that I’ve worked with and just here, you know, in my friendship circles or other arenas in psychology then there is this dismissing of what might happen, what messages we’re getting, what we’re saying, what we’re bothered by, we’re alive by, when we’re on our period. And it does get reduced to, Oh, are you on your cycle? And then it’s like, full stop period there in not a good way, in a silencing way.

Roxanne Partridge 43:44

Yes.

Candice Wu 43:45

Not the kind that like claims that and says, yeah. But yes, tell me more about who you see in your different phases of the cycle, or who your clients see.

Roxanne Partridge 44:01

Yeah. You know oftentimes as we get to know if it’s a moody menstrual self that comes through that oftentimes she’s a tremendous advocate for what like, the woman really wants or needs at that point in her life.

Candice Wu 44:24

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 44:25

And really uncompromising about it.

Candice Wu 44:28

I completely experienced that and I began to listen more on like, certain parts of my cycle because of that very raw, as you said, like, on a bash itself that screams what she knows she wants.

Roxanne Partridge 44:49

Yeah, and how it there’s this kind of thinning of the valve that happens.

Candice Wu 44:54

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 44:54

At that phase, you know, and in the body, premenstrually like, we heat up our body temperature is higher than at any other point like after ovulation. And I kind of think about this as this internal pressure cooker for our stuff, and, you know, whatever our, you know, kind of, ovulatory or post bleeding in our springtime selves who feel a little bit lighter, very focused, a little bit more maybe extroverted or go-getting and clear. You know, they move through the world in a different way, they have their gifts, they have their own style of being and the menstrual self kind of from an archetypal perspective, her style of being and what she has to offer is different and it can show up as like a desire to kind of clear, discern, get rid of things, relationships, jobs, people, you know really ground into like, Okay, this is what really works, you know, it’s kind of like an inner editor in a way.

Candice Wu 46:21

Yes.

Roxanne Partridge 46:22

And I can kind of like really there is such a resource. I mean at each phase of the cycle and I’m emphasizing the month the premenstrual on the menstrual because they’re the ones that usually get the worst rap you know that those marginalized parts of our psyche can really show up and they want attention. And you know what it’s like to befriend these marginalized parts of the psyche again, rather than silence them or just think okay, that’s like a negative mindset that I need to get rid of. But I’m just being curious like, okay, like, what is, who’s here? What does she need? What does she get? What’s important to her? And what does she get to experience when she receives what she truly needs? And typically, there’s a real softening that happens when the menstrual self gets what she needs.

Candice Wu 47:34

Yeah, I experience in a very spontaneous, quick way, like a deep breath and relief, which usually tells me like, that’s really what I need to do. And what you’re saying makes so much sense because during the menstrual cycle, we’re shedding, we’re letting something come off of us and sever from us and die. And it just is so in alignment, if that dark moody part of us, and maybe it’s not so dark and moody for some people, but that part of us that just knows exactly what needs to die and let go and it can be, at least for me a good wake up.

Roxanne Partridge 48:29

Yeah, there’s this wonderful like, death and rebirth that is in potential every cycle I feel and you know, I know some women who love to bleed and love the sensuality of the premenstrual and menstrual time, have liked the way that their body feels, the way that they want to respond to food and you know the way that they want to dress or just their whole central experience shifts and for some, it’s been like a question of like, a couple of clients I have like, really feel, really sexual, really gorgeous, really powerful when they bleed. That’s like this relief like you’re saying this, like, letting go and really being in themselves. And then the invitation being okay and how does this cycle through to the next phase?

Roxanne Partridge 49:37

You know we’re like, of how to carry that kind of gift of like, renewal and an integrated, it’s like if you think about maybe this, I think this might be a helpful analogy like if you go through, like a retreat weekend or deep ritual or initiation or something or a vision quest and it’s amazing and you have all these insights and all of these openings, and it’s like, yes. And what does this look like in the rest of my life? How do we bring this in?

Candice Wu 50:20

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 50:22

And that’s one thing that like, I’m really like, the idea of like, the sacred space, like, space is the main, I feel like it’s a big topic, space.

Candice Wu 50:35

Space for ourselves, space for discernment, you know, space to bleed, space —

Roxanne Partridge 50:47

Taking up space, exactly, occupying space, having yourself represented in cultural space, space and relationships, womb space, universe inside our bodies —

Candice Wu 51:09

That kind of space, outer space, and inner space.

Roxanne Partridge 51:14

Yeah, like all of those spaces. Ah, it’s something that I am thinking about every day and —

Candice Wu 51:23

We’re creating poetry here. Let’s just shift gears altogether.

Roxanne Partridge 51:31

Yeah.

Candice Wu 51:33

I got only next time.

Roxanne Partridge 51:36

But it’s like, you know the need for like, yeah the navigating, how to navigate all these different spaces and what wants to be integrated and what is, you know, what just wants to be its own space, you know, it’s like, to ground this is like you know, the space to just, to discern like, Okay, what am I carrying that isn’t mine, like, what have I inherited from my family, from culture, from, you know, different perspectives that I grew up with about what it is to be a woman, a person with a female anatomy, what it is to menstruate, have children, not have children, like, all these things.

Candice Wu 52:33

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 52:34

You know, to have this space to discern that and to really connect with what feels authentic and to like cultivate a fuller dynamic sense of self and not get caught into a single role. Because even if that role is true and meaningful, usually there are other roles that also want to be a part of life.

Candice Wu 53:02

The multiplicity.

Roxanne Partridge 53:03

Yeah. Right, and how to like, how to navigate the path. And so often, women will, in my experience, they’ll find a sense of spaciousness that feels really good or safe when it’s like in solitude and then it feels like well, being in a relationship or having a different kind of job may like, you know, or just like, it feels really vulnerable, the space, you know, and I’ve definitely experienced this myself like I’ve had, you know, there’s a big part of me that’s like a total lone wolf.

Candice Wu 53:53

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 53:54

And how to bring a sense of connection to my own inner multiplicity, my changing nature, my cyclicity all the different things and parts of myself that make me, how to bring that into my life and, you know, be in relationships or navigate different spaces or whatever. And it’s this kind of, I feel like we’re in this moment or this is all being very much explored.

Candice Wu 54:37

Yeah, very much. We have a lot more language for this and more connection and collaboration around it in bringing each other forward in support.

Candice Wu 54:55

So, with this, Roxanne, I know you also work with dreams a lot, and I’m wondering if there is a dream or dream fragment that has been striking you lately, or been alive with you?

Roxanne Partridge 55:22

Yeah, I’m recalling a dream. I wish I had my journal at hand. I’ve been dreaming so much lately.

Candice Wu 55:41

Have you? Wow!

Candice Wu 55:44

Yeah. Do you want to get it or just what feels right here?

Roxanne Partridge 55:48

It’s not close enough. Thank you.

Candice Wu 55:56

Take your time.

Roxanne Partridge 55:58

Yeah, there’s one in particular that I’m trying to draw up right now. It’s going to cooperate —

Candice Wu 56:04

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 56:05

Wants to show —

Candice Wu 56:06

Yes.

Candice Wu 56:16

It does have its own life, doesn’t it? Autonomy in a way. Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 56:30

Oh, I’ll go with the dream I had this morning.

Roxanne Partridge 56:34

So this morning I dreamt of coastal mountains in California that are not on fire and being in these mountains and having this wonderful view of the ocean. And there are these kinds of in the dream the language was mountain title tide pools. These like, crevices in the mountains that were once tide pools and they were filled with flowers and the California poppy, that orange wonderful poppy flower wasn’t blue. And it was really beautiful and kind of have a surreal quality and it’s this familiar kind of landscape where I’ve spent a good number of years living in California and that landscape is really dear to me. You know.

Roxanne Partridge 57:45

And I am thinking about the dream now and I had it this morning before our conversation today and I’ve been thinking about this topic of space. You know, where the Land of California has really offered me a lot of space. And I would say through being with and on the land out there when I was really kind of going deep and I did you know my graduate studies out there. It was through a kind of dreaming and thinking and wrestling with the land that I was able to find greater inner space.

Roxanne Partridge 57:48

And it’s been a few years since I’ve been to California and it was in the dream where I’m looking into these mountain top tide pools of blue poppy flowers and it felt like a blue color like, it changed from orange to blue and it was this kind of this, like, there was this sort of feeling tone of sadness and nostalgia.

Roxanne Partridge 59:17

And in the dream, I found myself saying a lot of things like, well, this is where I used to back when I was here I did this, all this kind of past tense stuff. And, I love recognizing that like, yes, like, this actual place opened up this inner space within me and I think there are, I know there are times when I long for that landscape to hold space for me. And I also know that well, you know, I’m sure I feel great if I went back to visit, that there’s something about like, the practice of space within myself, you know, no longer needs to or can or wants to be held by that particular landscape, if that makes sense, you know.

Roxanne Partridge 1:00:44

Feeling into it again, like, just taking it as a dream that came forward on the day of our talk, and embodiment and embodying our nature, embodying ourselves, period, of you know, it’s kind of like this remembrance, you know, of like, there is inner space, you know, and like, yeah, this actual place held back for you. And you’re like, you know, I’m just kind of pointing my attention towards what’s holding it for me now. You know, what are the ways of practicing and enacting and living space and all these different ways that we’re talking about right and like taking up space and holding space.

Candice Wu 1:01:46

There’s so much that’s breathing about what you’re saying and it almost made me think of this actual place, being more physical marker for a birth of your inner space, like, a home away and yet there’s this part of you that once, maybe a different embodiment of that or separation from physical, actual place, but taking that with you in a way. Those are my words but yeah, that’s just what it made me think of.

Roxanne Partridge 1:02:30

Yeah, you know and I think that’s part of where I find my own daily sense of aliveness is in these very mundane, small moments, of grounding into where I am in the Hudson Valley, and the present really. I don’t know how else to say it.

Candice Wu 1:03:15

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 1:03:15

You know, and of remembering that space is here.

Candice Wu 1:03:25

Yeah, and wherever you are.

Candice Wu 1:03:32

Thank you for sharing that.

Candice Wu 1:03:37

And I’m very excited to share with everyone, your meditation on rewilding your sexual ecology and that’ll be coming up here and link to your episode as well. Do you want to say anything about that?

Roxanne Partridge 1:03:55

Yeah, I’d love to. I mean, we’ve been talking a lot about menstrual selves. Another piece here is our sexual selves. And likewise, you know how knowing the different figures of our sexual essence can bring us home to our kind of native, wild, inner sexual landscape.

Roxanne Partridge 1:04:26

And so this offering of rewilding your sexual ecology is an invitation to journey into your inner native sexual landscape and taking multiple levels of life force, you know, Kundalini energy, arousal, desire, joy, where you feel aliveness and to see who comes through. Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 1:04:58

I’ve invited women to explore, you know, where they feel most centrally alive and the images that sometimes come through have oftentimes even nothing to do with a bedroom, you know, or a partner even, it’s like being barefoot and singing in their kitchen.

Candice Wu 1:05:02

Yeah.

Roxanne Partridge 1:05:18

It’s just like, you know, where you feel like your body just feels like, expansive. And, you know, it’s an invitation to really kind of locate that and you know, having this ecological amplification of reintroducing that wild, native sexual archetype essence species into the landscape of your life, you know, and how to have it take up space and how to have, you know, imagine it forward and to experiment in introducing reintroducing your native, wild sexual essence into your life, you know, from the day to day to your sexual pleasure, you know, everywhere.

Candice Wu 1:06:14

Everywhere. Yes. It’s really lovely. So I invite everyone to check that out. It’s some other words I wrote down where rivers and vital energy and I really liked that.

Candice Wu 1:06:32

Thank you for offering that and would you like to say anything about your hypnotherapy, the free downloads you have or the workshops that you offer in New York, and retreats, you also have one on one sessions and a million things that you’re offering that are just gorgeous, magical, and look so meaningful.

Roxanne Partridge 1:06:59

Thank you. Yeah, you can check out several free downloads of hypnotherapy practices that run 20, 30 minutes long. There’s one called Remembering Womb, which is a wonderful way to drop into your womb space with some really nurturing energy. So I always recommend that as a way to kind of befriend womb space and kind of return to yourself. I think it’s a great way to ground and there are several others there too, that you can explore and check out.

Roxanne Partridge 1:07:43

I have monthly women’s councils called Body Storm, and we’re going on a brief winter hibernation after this month but we’ll be coming back in the spring and those take the form of a talking circle that have verbal and movement visioning involved here in Hudson, New York.

Roxanne Partridge 1:08:13

And then, there’s Flame Retrieval, which is a retreat coming up in April. It’s a weekend retreat held here in Hudson. And really ends up body, soul, spirit, heart, mind, kind of initiation into tending your inner flame and retrieving your inner flame if it feels lost or low. And whether that, you know, be showing itself through creative blocks or shut down in the body and really welcoming in wherever you are so often I hear from women like, is it okay if I bring my story here? Is it too negative? Is it too dark? Am I going to overwhelm me? Oh, is this too much?

Roxanne Partridge 1:09:14

And to all of that, I say, Welcome. Come, you know, as this shameful, you know, and there’s such a vital life force in that darkness. And so, really welcoming that not only in, yeah, definitely the Flame Retrieval retreat, but, and all of these different doorways into embodying yourself fully in your life.

Candice Wu 1:09:51

Thank you. That’s wonderful. And where can people find that?

Roxanne Partridge 1:09:55

EmbodyPeriod.com/workshops

Candice Wu 1:10:00

Thank you, Roxanne. I feel like we could talk for days and a long time, and is there anything now that’s coming up that feels vital or alive to share or to say as we close here today.

Roxanne Partridge 1:10:25

I think something that I would love to water the ears of listeners with is that soul is revealing itself to you through your embodied experience, whether it’s menstrually or sexually related or behavioral or story, to remember and to be curious about how is soul showing up through us? What is soul expressing through us and to turn towards yourself just as you’d want to turn towards a beloved, just as you’d want a beloved to turn towards you, to turn towards yourself with curiosity and openness and to invite yourself through these moments back to yourself?

Candice Wu 1:11:45

Thank you. I hear that. I hear you.

Roxanne Partridge 1:11:53

Thank you so much.

Candice Wu 1:11:54

Thank you for watering my ears.

Roxanne Partridge 1:11:57

Yeah, I wish we could talk so much more

Candice Wu 1:12:00

Wonderful.

Roxanne Partridge 1:12:01

We will. All the correlations between your work and list could go on and on.

Candice Wu 1:12:08

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Roxanne and it’s been fabulous to have you. It’s been so good to be here. Thank you.

Candice Wu 1:12:24

Wow, I was so grateful to have you, Roxanne, on the show and I learned so much and just your vibrancy calls forward so much in me that remembers myself and imagination and bringing forward my process and really embracing it. You are this validating force for embracing what is real and true and alive.

Candice Wu 1:12:58

Thank you so much and all of you out there listening, thank you for joining us. I hope this was inspiring to you as well and be sure to listen to Roxanne’s meditation on rewilding your sexual ecology, which is in connection with this episode but will come out later this week if you’re subscribed.

Candice Wu 1:13:17

If you want to go straight to their website and find it right now you can find it at CandiceWu.com/roxanne.

Candice Wu 1:13:26

Before we go and end with a couple of reverberations of Roxanne’s work, I want to invite you to connect with me on my newsletter that comes out once or twice a month at CandiceWu.com/embody, where you can receive updates about where I am in the world and what’s happening with the horses or receive self — notes and updates about the podcast and be sure to check out Roxanne’s work at embodyperiod.com.

Candice Wu 1:13:55

So I want to echo her words: How is soul showing up through this? What of soul is showing through my experience? And also to ask you, what is your story? What is the backdrop of your menstrual story?

Candice Wu 1:14:17

Thanks so much for joining us today on the Embody podcast and see you next time.

Candice Wu 0:00

This experiential with Roxanne Partridge is a beautiful invitation to rewild your sexual self.

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love. My name is Candice Wu and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Welcome, and it’s wonderful to have you here. I’m so excited to introduce Roxanne Partridge to you here. She has her full podcast at CandiceWu.com/roxanne where we talk all about befriending the many parts of ourselves that come through the menstrual and premenstrual cycle, where we explore the invitations of what life shows us, where life shows us about the soul, how to be curious and connect with the menstrual backdrop of your life, feeling alive and in tune with the darkness and the depth of who we are, to bring our own magic to the surface, all of that is just wonderfully enlivened through conversation with Roxanne so be sure to check that out. And now, without further ado, is Roxanne.

Roxanne Partridge 1:53

Welcome to rewilding your sexual ecology, Dr. Roxanne Partridge of Embody Period and I’ve created this hypnotherapy experience for you to deepen into your inner sexual wilderness landscape, gently moving beyond the layers of conditioning we have all received around sexuality and meeting authentic pleasure, the deep joy of your embodied essence.

Please go ahead and lie down if you haven’t done so already. Get as comfortable as possible, making sure your body feels totally supported from head to toe. Pull a blanket over you if you’d like to feel cozy, as well as to help you deepen into your body, with that extra weight of a blanket.

Settle in, settle into the space, placing your hands over your pelvis.

Good, and now taking several deep breaths.

This is your time, so relax into it. Letting your breath deep and down under the palms of your hands and notice what it’s like to deepen your breath down beneath your belly and to bring it all the way down into your pelvis. Letting your pelvis receive your deep, steady, relaxed breathing right now and allowing your breath and your attention, your awareness to nourish the space between your fingers, the space beneath your palm, bringing warmth and is and relaxation here in between your hips.

And as you do this, your hips begin to relax and open, letting your legs loose, feet at ease, opening from your pelvis down and out.

Eyes closed, eyelids heavy, muscles of your face, relax. Your lips part gently as your jaw relaxes and your head becomes heavy and perhaps even droops a little, the energy of your forehead, your third eye, beginning to draw downwards and inwards.

As your attention moves down, your body relaxing, arms, elbows, back, and shoulder muscles relaxing into your core.

Good.

Feel and imagine a channel of energy now between your third eyes space and your pelvis, your root. Feel and imagine this core of energy moving from your third eye down to your pelvis.

Imagine and feel this as a river. A river that is tidal and can move in both directions. And right now, we’re moving from your third eye down into your pelvis. So feel and see this channel of energy run through your core, connecting your breath from one place to the other.

As we begin to take a journey down this river of energy, beginning here in your third eye, this place of inner visioning, feeling and sensing yourself afloat on a raft or a wonderful tube drifting down this easeful, relaxing river of your energy. Feeling yourself move clearly. This water runs with ease. It runs fresh and clear, gently drifting down through your head and neck, visualizing and sensing yourself as you do this moving down this river and opening up your inner visioning to the landscape.

Beginning to perceive and sense what’s around you on all sides. Noticing the shorelines and what’s here. Perhaps there are trees, fields or mountains, notice what’s here in your own, in our bioregion, as you drift down through your heart space and your solar plexus space and down into your belly, and down beyond into space beneath your palm, the inner place of your sexual ecology coming to stillness here.

Then finding a place for yourself to rest whether it be upon the shore, on a rock, the sand, the grass, bringing yourself to a place of stillness here in the base of your sacks and breathing deeply.

Put the organs and tissues of your sexual ecology. A vital place of your fertile creativity, power, essence, and joy as you land here in this domain. Noticing the air, the light, what grows here.

You meet the homeplace of an inner vital figure of your joy, of your wild, free, sexual essence and she shows herself to you now. A Mary Jane from the landscape, perhaps she comes from the river itself. Perhaps she comes out of the trees or on the horizon and she makes her way towards you and notice how she shows her mood, her way of moving. Perhaps she’s dancing. Perhaps she’s moving slow and steady, arms open like a goddess. Perhaps she kind of just floats in a completely enchanting way over the landscape.

Notice her energy and her style right now and she comes to you and takes your hands and pulls you lovingly into her orb of energy, introducing you to her way of being. And in this moment, her way of being becomes your way of being and together you amplify and expand this essential, vital energy throughout your entire being, throughout this entire landscape and body place, your whole pelvis illuminated and energized and nurtured.

As the two of you become one in this life energy, feel yourself here needing this source of your wild sexual essence, knowing that this lives organically, natively within you and now that you know that this is what lives here, you can bring this energy forward, upriver, traveling with it throughout your entire being, introducing this vital energy that is wild and native to your sexuality, to your sensuality, to your creative essence, introducing, reintroducing this native essence to the fullness of your being, welcoming its power into your solar plexus, welcoming this life force into your heart, feeling your heart expand with its presence of your wildly authentic pleasure, feeling as you continue to move up the river, feeling your sexual essence meet your throat and open your throat and hear and feel the words, the language of this native sexual energy.

What did she say? What is she sing to the world? And feeling you rise and travel further up and out into your third eye, opening your third eye, with her presence that is yours and noticing how she sees the world and your place in it and how you body your wildness forward.

Imagining right now and seeing, knowing it to be true, how you move forward in the world but the wildness of your sexual ecology moving through you, allowing yourself to feel completely energized by this throughout your entire body, feeling it in your toes, your hands, feeling it in the sides of your face, perhaps now, even smiling a little, breathing and expanding into this life force energy and noticing how the landscape of your waking life completely ships in small and significant ways now that this organic, wild, native source of your sexuality has been realized.

Deep breath.

Feeling into the palms your hands, turning the palms of your hands now, upwards and outwards, expanding your arms, opening your arms into a great big stretch of wings, bringing them above your head, stretching out your legs and feet, feeling your pelvis warm, hips open, chest open, back, maybe even arching a little, let your head fall back, mouth open in total pleasure. Expand it and your wild sexual ecology.

Thank you for the vital rewilding work. Body for wild throughout the rest of your day and the rest of your life.

Candice Wu 20:20

As you come out of this experience with Roxanne, take your own time to come back to your surroundings. Support yourself in any way you need to. This is all about you and what you need right now to support yourself, to support your sexual being and as Roxanne invites us to, I invite you also to see how this experience can be brought forward into your life. Thanks so much for taking the time today.

Candice Wu 0:00

This episode is with special guest, Angela Yarber, who brings forward the goddess within through stories of women of color, who are often queer, the stories that call up a reflection of our self-worth, of love, resilience, strength, and also bring the intersections of sexuality and sensuality, of gender, religion, and spirituality, where it mixes with the arts and our expression.

Candice Wu 0:29

In this episode, you’ll hear inspiring and life-giving stories of women of color, who are also queer, that have led lives that can bring us so much nourishment right now and leave us feeling supported and not alone, as well as how we can bring forward a subversive sisterhood that breaks down the structures that can confine or drain us in society.

Candice Wu 0:58

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love. My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:33

Welcome back, everyone to the Embody Podcast. This is such a fun episode with Reverend Dr. Angela Yarber, who is an author, artist, and I would say an advocate for marginalized women and people of color, queer people, and someone who is in her way, an activist. She’s an executive director of The Holy Women Icons Project, which is a non-profit seeking to empower marginalized women by telling the stories of revolutionary holy women through art, writing, and special events.

Candice Wu 2:08

I’m fascinated by the books that she’s authored, that are touching on the intersections of LGBT experience, spirituality, and religion, microaggression. Some of the titles of her books include The Gendered Pulpit, Dance in Scripture, Tearing Open the Heavens, Microaggressions in Ministry, and Embodying the Feminine in the Dances of the World’s Religions. These all just sound like such juicy topics, and she was a finalist for the International Penelope Niven Creative Nonfiction Award.

Candice Wu 2:43

She’s painted over 100 folk feminist icons of revolutionary women, holy women from history and mythology, and she brings those stories forward through her writing. And after 14 years of being a queer clergywoman, her job became so toxic that she left the church and traveled full time with her wife and toddler, and after two years of full-time travel, they made Hawaii their home where they also run a small off-grid Eco Retreat Center.

Candice Wu 3:10

Before we jump into the episode today, I’d like to mention that this episode is sponsored by the Ally With Death experiential and guided visualization. So this has been something that’s been out there as a guided online experience but just recently, I published the experiential which is a guided audio experience to facilitate this experience of your own death. And what this does is simulate the experience of death so that you can get really clear about what needs to die in your life, what’s ready to shut off, and what you need to do in order to feel like you are living and fully in your life force, in your essence, the next step of your journey, so it’s perfect for this conversation today, as Angela discusses, burning down some of the structures that hold us back and sloughing away the things that are not needed anymore as we ventured to the next step of our journey and as she introduces the retreat she has coming up in which you can deepen into that experience of letting go, burning down, releasing and shifting, and stepping into this new year and decade with more nourishment and sustenance spiritually and within your body.

Candice Wu 4:40

So this experience of simulating your death, letting go and rebirth thing, letting the body move through some of that experience, can bring you new life as you head into the winter and into the life that wants to come forward this spring. So as fall deepens, we just had Halloween and Day of the Dead, as we head into the dead of the winter, if you’re interested in seeing what you are ready to let go of as well and come in line with the seasonal changes, check out the experiential which is that guided audio at CandiceWu.com/death.

Candice Wu 5:22

And if you’ve previously bought the Ally With Death experience, the online experience, you should have received in your email inbox the link to the experiential, if you haven’t, feel free to reach out to me at my website Candicewu.com.

Candice Wu 5:36

I could not be more thrilled to introduce our guest today, Angela. Everything that she says just brings myself and bones so much life and fuel, food and I could not be more grateful for her here on the podcast. So without further ado, here is Angela.

Candice Wu 5:57

Okay, hello, Angela.

Angela Yarber 5:59

Hello. It’s great to be here.

Candice Wu 6:01

It’s so fabulous that you’re here. I’m really excited to have this conversation with you. And as we jump in, I just want to introduce you a little bit.

Candice Wu 6:10

You have a Ph.D. in art and religion and you’re a multimedia artist, and the author of seven books that discuss the intersections of gender and sexuality, religion and spirituality and the arts, and you’ve been an ordained queer clergywoman for 14 years.

Angela Yarber 6:29

That’s right.

Candice Wu 6:30

Wow!

Angela Yarber 6:31

That’s right, an odd combination. I’m no longer serving anywhere, but I did indeed for 14 years serve as a queer clergywoman, still queer, but not practicing as a clergywoman.

Candice Wu 6:44

It just sounds incredible your journey and I’d love to hear a bit of that journey and how you got to being a clergywoman, and then to where you are now.

Angela Yarber 6:56

Sure.

Angela Yarber 6:57

Well, I can dive right in there. It’s interesting because as a young person, as an adolescent, my plan was always to go into the performing arts, and had these lofty goals of going to Juilliard and pursuing a life in musical theatre. I did end up being a professional dancer for quite a number of years.

Angela Yarber 7:19

And as a teenager, I experienced this very conservative, religious conversion experience, where I was invited to go to a church, a Christian church, where they had free rock climbing. And so I went specifically for the free rock climbing and in the process, had this very conservative, religious experience. And what was disappointing now looking back on it is that the clergy there told me that all of my life in the performing arts and all of my talents there were things that I needed to set aside and ignore because they didn’t bring glory to God.

Angela Yarber 8:01

And so during a very pivotal time, ages 17 and 18, I kind of changed everything that I wanted to be. I was a bit of an odd, precocious teenager and that my way of rebelling at age 11 was to become a vegetarian and get involved in animals rights, and I was big into women’s rights and none of that, along with my work in the arts coincided with this church, and I felt that I had to become the version of Christianity that they handed to me. So I changed everything and went to a small liberal arts college and majored in religion and very fortunately for me, the professors there were quite progressive, and told me you know, this version of a faith tradition that was handed to you isn’t the only version. There are other versions of this, and your passion and your gifts in the arts can coincide with your faith.

Angela Yarber 8:54

And so, fortunately, there was only one year where I kind of abandoned the essence of who I am and my professors helped me piece that back together. So, at age 18, I became a youth minister, worked with middle school and high school students, and was soon ordained only a few years later when I went to seminary.

Angela Yarber 9:13

And fortunately for me, I left behind kind of that conservative tradition and started moving very rapidly back to the left, where I belonged and brought in my feminist spirituality, queer spirituality, even though I wasn’t out yet and started fusing that with the tradition where I was ordained. And so for 14 years, I serve churches, along the way, I became a pastor where I was preaching every Sunday.

Angela Yarber 9:43

And at my most recent congregation about seven years ago, we were actually the First Baptist Church in the entire world with two open lesbians as head pastors. And — yes, yeah it was a really revolutionary, amazing place to be. I loved the woman that I served with. She was really amazing. She did all of the pastoral care work, I did all the preaching and worship, and then we shared all the other responsibilities. But as you might imagine, that caused a lot of backlash and so my file folder filled with hate mail grew thicker and thicker.

Angela Yarber 10:23

We were protested by Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church and amidst that even though the community was very progressive and really prided themselves on how progressive they were. I think, like many white, predominantly white, upper-middle-class, highly educated, progressive communities, they thought they were so progressive. But then when things started to shift with me being there when they looked into the pulpit each Sunday, and they saw a queer woman, and then they saw two queer women who embodied our sexuality and our gender identity quite differently, and then they saw the communities that we began to attract to the congregation which were predominantly queer, a lot of people of color, many from rural communities that didn’t have access to the education that they had access to, that change to the community was and as much as they wanted to be liberal and progressive.

Angela Yarber 11:23

A lot of people started acting out in really toxic ways with sexist and heterosexist, microaggressions, so those underhanded slights, and that really began to wear on me in ways that impacted me spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, even physically, to where I determined that it was just too toxic for me, and I needed to leave.

Angela Yarber 11:47

And in that discernment process, I went on this little retreat. It was a personal retreat for artists and activists and there I began to heal and in healing, I discerned that, it was time not just for me to leave that church, but perhaps for me to leave the church altogether. And so, I linked this to the story of Lilith, who was in Jewish Midrash or myth, she was the first woman in the Garden of Eden with Adam. And when she learned that she had to be subservient, she essentially climbed the garden’s walls and said, I’m out of here and left to set women free. And so —

Candice Wu 12:26

I love it.

Angela Yarber 12:28

Right, I followed Lilith’s footsteps and I climbed the garden’s walls to find liberation on the other side. And in so doing have created the Holy Women Icons Project where I find my vocation now as an author and an artist to help set women free and particularly marginalized women, and those who have been hurt by spirituality who perhaps have been excluded by spiritual traditions, traditional spiritual traditions or who have felt confined by them, and who looked into those halls of leadership be it pulpits or stained glass, or synagogues or mosques or temples, and they don’t see reflections of themselves.

Angela Yarber 13:06

And so in the work now that I do, I’m trying to paint in folk feminist iconography and write about women from history and mythology and in archetypes to say, there are reflections of ourselves where women, women of color, marginalized women, who can be spiritual leaders, and who can honor our deep sense of self-worth, and holiness and sacredness that resides within. And that was a bit of a long meandering response to a short question, but that’s where I find myself today.

Candice Wu 13:37

It’s amazing. I mean, I just asked you about your whole life journey so concisely.

Angela Yarber 13:44

Well, thank you.

Candice Wu 13:45

You’re welcome. And — it’s your story. I want you to talk more about Holy Women Icons Project and what I know about it is that you are painting these women, literally painting them and then you’re giving them this life, their story out into words or into some description where we can connect with that and you’re literally bringing back to life the treasures that have been hidden in the dark corners, or left behind, or as you said, confined via these spiritual figures to show us this has existed.

Angela Yarber 14:25

Yes. I feel really strongly in the notion if you can’t see it, you can’t be it.

Angela Yarber 14:32

Now, of course, there are many of us who do become what we haven’t seen, but, in part of my calling initially with being a queer clergywoman, there were a lot of times where I felt the call or the beckoning to leave, but I stayed longer than I imagined because there are a lot of queer women that you see in the pulpit. And so I felt that I’m speaking on behalf of communities who have been marginalized and excluded and whose voices have been ignored. I often say that these women, these revolutionary women that I paint and write about, are hidden in the crevices of our cannons at best or strategically erased at worst. And even worse than that, as we see in contemporary culture and throughout history, have been demonized as witches, as we see in the Puritans movement here in the United States, who continue to be violated, as we see with the #meto movement and with sexual assault. And, those women’s stories need to be heard. And they span wisdom traditions, and cultural traditions, and even a lot of women from history and mythology, who might not have had a direct spiritual tradition. Someone like Frida Kahlo or Audrey Lord, for example, but whose life legend and legacy teach us about our own self-worth.

Angela Yarber 15:56

And so in those ways, I do see them as spiritual leaders even if that’s not how they’re traditionally thought of, so kind of to lift up these stories as a way of shattering the stained glass ceiling, the regular glass ceiling and lifting up these revolutionary women upon whose shoulders we rest today, and to say everyone needs to know these stories, and then knowing them, we ourselves can be empowered and we can empower others to be and become all that we are called to be in our world.

Candice Wu 16:29

It’s beautiful, and there’s such a congruence to what you’re bringing forward and wholeness to the fact that what your passions are, the way that you can be an expression of yourself like that is spirituality. And the way that these women as you said, like Frida Kahlo and Audre Lorde, the way they live their life that is a spiritual experience that teaches us something and —

Angela Yarber 16:58

Yeah.

Candice Wu 16:59

-specifically, right? And then it’s — that it is a spiritual lesson for us all that doesn’t have to fit in the confines of a church or some sort of structure that probably created itself from that same other version that we can’t quite fit into itself.

Angela Yarber 17:20

Right. Yes, I call this kind of motley crew. At this point, I’ve painted over 100 of these women from history and mythology. So I refer to them and this community at large, folks like you and me, as the subversive Sisterhood of Saints, that somehow we formed this cloud of witnesses and in those moments for me, when life is really challenging, or I’m feeling alone or isolated, I think of all these women forming this circle around me that upholds me and keeps me stronger still, and I think of the resilience of Pauli Murray or the sister outsider notions of Audre Lorde and you know, so many things that I’ve researched and written about these women and their images that helped me to hold my head high, to stretch my arms wide off the confines of the canvas of my life, and to occupy the space in the world because we need more women in the world who are occupying more space.

Angela Yarber 18:21

We’re so often taught to make ourselves small, even physically to where we sit down, we cross our legs, we slump our shoulders, we cross our arms, and I think that something happens when we physically lift our heads, spread our shoulders wide. I often say make your shoulder blades kiss one another behind you and occupy more space because our bodies are beings, every part of us is worthwhile, and these women remind us of that.

Candice Wu 18:51

There’s such a visceral feeling of allowing and giving permission and embracing, taking up space.

Angela Yarber 18:58

Yes.

Candice Wu 19:00

Like, feeling into our own space and outside of us too, that you’re bringing up and I love this image of the subversive Sisterhood of Saints, all the women that can lift you up that do exist. And I’m curious for you today, which of these saints, which of these women are bringing you a lesson or helping you through something or guiding you right now?

Angela Yarber 19:29

I think that’s a great question, and it’s really hard, you know, out of all of these, the hundred women that I’ve painted, and also the list of hundreds more that I have yet to paint and yet to write about. But I would say the one that stands out to me the very most, who I almost always come back to is Pauli Murray.

Angela Yarber 19:50

Pauli Murray was a black woman who was a civil rights attorney, really active in the civil rights movement, but for me, even though I have degrees in this, I’m, you know, was quite literally a professor of women’s gender and sexuality studies, and was in my early 30s before I ever heard of her.

Angela Yarber 20:08

She was born and raised in North Carolina, which interestingly was where I lived when I found out about her and she went to school and then when it was time to go to law school because she wanted to work on behalf of black women, she was denied entrance into Harvard.

Angela Yarber 20:28

First, she was accepted because they thought the name Pauli was a nickname for Paul. So they thought she was a man and they accepted her and when they found out she was a woman, they took away her scholarship.

Candice Wu 20:38

Wow.

Angela Yarber 20:38

And then she applied — Yes. Then she applied to go to law school in North Carolina, and she was denied because she was black. So finally, she went to UC Berkeley. She wrote a book there that Thurgood Marshall named, many of us know from the civil rights movement, he called this book, the bible of the Civil Rights Movement, and yet I had never heard of her.

Angela Yarber 20:58

And she went on to coin the phrase, Jim Crow, to acknowledge the sexism that accompanies racism and Jim Crow laws in the south. Then, after this amazing career, she started the National Organization for Women. We typically don’t hear of her doing that either. And then in her 60s, she decided that the next phase of her vocation was ministry, and she became the first black woman to be ordained as an Episcopal priest. And when she presided her first Eucharist or communion, which is the body and blood, according to the tradition, or the bread and the wine of Jesus, she presided at her first Eucharist at the church where her grandmother, who was then a slave, was forcibly baptized.

Angela Yarber 21:46

And throughout it all, she also loved and had intimate relationships with other women. She wrote about how she felt that she was a man born in a woman’s body, and she started taking hormone treatments. And I think, if she had access to the language we now employ, she might have identified as transgender or as genderqueer, or gender non-binary.

Angela Yarber 22:10

And so, I think of this revolutionary woman whose story I had never even heard about, who was discriminated against because of her race, her gender, her sexuality, her gender identity. And yet, she wrote and described her life as hope as a song in a weary throat. And that she wanted to create a world where she could sing her song.

Angela Yarber 22:41

She said that one person plus one typewriter can equal a revolution and I think of the ways that she embodied resilience and whenever I faced hardships, I think of her and how she had the resilience to continue working not only on her own behalf, but on behalf of so many marginalized women and communities, and that she didn’t have access to so many of the things that I have access to today.

Angela Yarber 23:14

And so, I would say throughout it all, even though there are different phases of my life for different historical women and mythological women have offered me support and an empowerment and an inspiration, I almost always come back to Pauli Murray. And I think it’s because, I think, how on earth did I go through all of my schooling, and then, you know, a master’s degree and a Ph.D. in this field and become a professor who does precisely this work, and did not hear her story until I was, I believe, 32 or 33 years old. and so I feel that her story is one that I always want to shout from the rooftops.

Angela Yarber 23:55

And I even remember, if you’ll indulge me for another moment, Candice, I teach a college course about this, it’s called Women history and myth. And I remember the first time I taught this at Wake Forest University, I had a class where it happened to be everyone in this class was a woman. And I had a young African-American woman, she was a senior, and she was on the track team, and everyone in the class read about everyone. But then they became what I called an expert on one woman, which meant that they did a lot of extra reading, and she chose Pauli Murray. And I just remember her talking in class and tearing up and saying, how have I not heard about her story before, she’s only 21 years old.

Angela Yarber 24:35

And she was going into the field of being a teacher, and she talked about how she was going to be teaching Middle School in inner-city Charlotte. And she said, I cannot wait to tell my students about Pauli Murray and to help raise up a generation who isn’t going to have to ask in their adulthood, why haven’t I heard her story? And that’s just one little tiny example of how learning about these women offers a skills transfer, because the things that they did in their lives now we can do in our lives. But it also offers us the empowerment and the inspiration and that’s the work we do at the Holy Women Icons Project. You know, we want to help empower marginalized women by telling the stories of revolutionary holy women through art, writing, and special events.

Angela Yarber 25:23

And so oftentimes, when I’m getting bogged down and doing, you know, the marketing that I don’t know how to do, or the business side of things that I’m still trying to learn, or, you know, logging a lot of social media things for the nonprofit or something like that becomes this arduous work, I try to remember that young woman in my class, and how Pauli Murray, learning about Pauli Murray changed her life. And to try to remember that when doing this little work. Yeah.

Candice Wu 25:50

Yeah. I mean, even hearing this now I feel the same. I’ve never heard of her and her story, all the details that you told of what she endured, and also, still, she kept so much of herself even with all of that against her.

Angela Yarber 26:10

Yes.

Candice Wu 26:12

Yeah.

Angela Yarber 26:13

And just had so much courage and I hope and think over the years, you know, I started doing these paintings and the writing about them a little over a decade ago, and over the years, I’ve become more and more committed to really wanting to paint and tell the stories, particularly of women of color, and of queer women, because as a white woman doing this work, so often we lift up, for me, reflections of ourselves.

Angela Yarber 26:42

So we tell the story of Alice Paul or Jane Addams, or the Grimké sisters, who were all white women who all did revolutionary things, whose stories deserve to be heard. But I think that the stories of these marginalized women who are women of color and are queer women, their stories are even more hidden. And so I think it’s incumbent upon me with the privileges that I have to lift up those stories even higher because we all need to know those stories, everyone needs to hear them.

Candice Wu 27:12

And it’s beautiful what you’re doing too, when you said, white women can typically lift up, or maybe white people can typically lift up the reflections of themselves and yet, here you are telling the stories of queer women of color, or one or the other, or some crossover of that, and yet, you’re finding yourself in it, sounds like you’re bringing that connection to people that they can find themselves in it no matter what color or gender or sexual orientation they have in their lives.

Angela Yarber 27:46

Yes, and I think about that with these historical women and so many of the mythological or kind of Goddess figures that there’s been this history and this present reality of, you know, it’s a #Spiritualwhitewomen who appropriate the stories of others and take them only for their own.

Angela Yarber 28:05

And so I want to be really mindful and critical, and careful in the Holy Women Icons Project when lifting up these stories, especially from mythology and goddesses, not only to lift it up just for ourselves just for me to find reflections of myself, but also to say here are the uniqueness and the differences, and here are the things that we all hold in common to hold those simultaneously.

Angela Yarber 28:30

Because I think, all too often, we only lift up one and say, here all the differences, or we lift up the other and try to say, Kumbaya sisterhood, we’re all the same. Instead of saying no, there are certain uniqueness and particularities that women of color experience that I do not, that queer women experience that straight women do not, as all of those isms go and to lift up the particularities and to stand or abide in solidarity on behalf of the those who are experiencing impressions that I do not experience but to also say in the midst of all of that, we all are trying to be our authentic fullest selves. We all are trying to love and be loved and that’s a commonality that we can find to lift those up together to say, yes, there are unique differences and depressions, and there are these similarities and to and to lift those up together in ways that aren’t appropriating or wrongly taking someone’s story and making it my own.

Candice Wu 29:31

That sounds so important because they think some people are scared to lift those stories up or to bring them forward in the way you’re doing because of that kind of like, maybe the accusation of appropriation or a piece is missing, so then it feels appropriated or taken.

Angela Yarber 29:49

Yes,

Candice Wu 29:50

Right. But you’re bringing that, the sense forward of holding both, the differences and the way we can be in solidarity and commonality.

Angela Yarber 30:01

Yes. I think you just said it all perfectly. All I need to do is just add an Amen.

Candice Wu 30:06

Amen. Yeah.

Candice Wu 30:11

I want to talk more about sexuality and sensuality in the spiritual understanding. And well, really where this is coming from is I clicked on one of your Holy Women’s Icons emails, and this one was Shulamite’s.

Angela Yarber 30:31

Yes.

Candice Wu 30:32

Yes, and I loved that you offered questions for contemplation with each of these stories that were brought forward and the painting, and then the ritual exercise for this one was shimmy like a Shulamite and that every inch of your body is sacred. And you brought this question forward, of how might you understand sexuality and sensuality is spiritual. And I love that question and I wondered what comes to you now as we talk about it?

Angela Yarber 31:05

Yes. So I think, first, if it’s all right, I’ll unpack a little bit of the Shulamite’s story because I think it’s not one that’s very well known.

Angela Yarber 31:14

So it’s interesting when I was working on my comprehensive exams during my Ph.D. program of all things, I was researching the history of belly dance and I came across this reference by the author, Wendy Buenaventura, to the Shulamite in the Hebrew Bible, which is, you know, a text held a sacred for both Jews and Christians. And I thought, well, that’s interesting because that’s the tradition where I was ordained. So I have read and translated a lot of Hebrew in my day. So I wanted to go back and look at this text and its original language, so I translated the Hebrew.

Angela Yarber 31:52

And because I was a dancer and a dance historian, I was reading it all sorts of the lens of a dance historian while also translating it in Hebrews. So that’s kind of a unique thing. There’s not a lot of us who do that.

Angela Yarber 32:05

And it just caused my jaw to drop because… one: the writing, the poetry, it comes from the Song of Songs and that’s typically a story that’s lifted up by both Jews and Christians as a love poem between a man and a woman. But there are several different poems in them in the book and the text, and most of them do have male and female pronouns. But this one didn’t have any male pronouns anywhere in the text. And it keeps doting upon this lover who’s called the Shulamite, and describing her dance and it goes through her whole body, her jiggling thighs, and her shuttering breasts and her belly, which is a mound of wheat, filled with dimples, so it’s very curvy and full, and robust.

Angela Yarber 32:50

And all of the movement vocabulary, that’s the language we would use in dance, all of the movement vocabulary in Hebrew was very clearly describing a belly dance. There was no like, leaping or pirouettes or anything like that. This was shattering and shaking, the very purpose, and it was all describing the core. So kind of from the shoulders, down to the knees, which is certainly belly dance.

Angela Yarber 33:16

And interestingly, with the history of belly dance, historically, especially during this time period when it was written, it was a dance performed by women, for women, where men could not be present. And so —

Candice Wu 33:28

I didn’t know that.

Angela Yarber 33:30

Yes.

Angela Yarber 33:31

So in these confines, it was women dancing for one another often it was heterosexual in the sense that mothers were looking for spouses for their sons, but also, women would explore sexuality with one another in those spaces. And for me, it was very clear and in the reading of this text, there was no male pronoun so to me that says, the lover doting upon the Shulamite, was another woman which for me, in the sacred canon, this text of the Jewish and Christian tradition, which is often used to demoralize and demean queer people.

Angela Yarber 34:11

Here, we have this example of this erotic love poetry between two women, also doting upon a body that is clearly not the stereotypical norm in Western culture of what is lifted up as beautiful, meaning, waist-fish-thin, but is this curvy, robust, dimpled, shuttering, jiggling, that’s literally in the Hebrew text. And it’s so loving your thighs are like jewels crafted by artist’s hands. And so I don’t know about you, but for me as a woman living in Western culture, as much as I try to be body positive and fat positive and feminist and queer about my body, I’m not going to lie. I have a history of eating disorders in my body. I do a lot of body hating. And so there are a lot of times where sometimes I have to physically put my hands on my thighs and say you are like jewels crafted by artists’ hands.

Angela Yarber 35:10

You know, in this text — and think about how so many religious traditions have been used to make women hate their bodies, shame their bodies, and feel that any kind of sensuality or sexuality is something that needs to be overcome or shamed. But instead to lift that up and say, no, that’s a part of who you are, and so that’s holy and sacred, and part of your essence as well and there’s no reason to shame or judge that, but to love it and lift it up as a jewel crafted by artist hands.

Angela Yarber 35:48

And that’s hard, no matter how many times we say it, or at least it’s very hard for me and in my experience, it’s hard for a lot of women and genderqueer folk and men too, to embrace every piece of ourselves, the parts that society has deemed too big or not good enough, or not tight enough and the parts that religion have said are yucky or need to be covered, or shamed or an object of lust. But to say no, my body is a subject, every part of my body is a subject and it is worthwhile, and it is holy no matter what anyone else says about it and deserves to be loved and honored, and pleasured and respected, every inch of it.

Candice Wu 36:32

Every inch of it, and just bringing the expansion into the word holy and sacred.

Angela Yarber 36:38

Yes.

Candice Wu 36:40

You know that it’s not holy and sacred isn’t segmented and confined into those things that you’re mentioning, the things that have cost us shame and the definitions we’ve held, but holy and sacred is everything. It’s everything that we are.

Angela Yarber 36:58

And I think that’s so much of what these women from history and mythology teach us and so much of the work we do at the Holy Women Icons Project with the painting, the writing, and also the retreats and courses we lead, to try to kind of subvert these traditional notions of spirituality and to honor every piece of ourselves and everything that we do because so often the rest of the world doesn’t honor all of that. It segments us and says, you know, in the academy, we honor the brain, in spirituality, we honor the heart, in culture or popular culture, we honor, or not honor, but objectify the body. But instead to bring those three pieces together and say, education without the heart is no education at all, as Aristotle would say that, if you sever your head from your spirit, then you know, where’s the knowledge and the wisdom and if you sever your body for many of that, then you’re missing out on what your body can teach you.

Angela Yarber 37:57

For me, there are so many times with my history as a dancer, and even, you know, with running or with Yoga, or any kind of movement work that I’m doing research in my head, I’m thinking with my mind and with my heart, but then when I really sit into my body with it, that things open up, crack open and we know this with a lot of spiritual visions with their work with chakras and things like that, that sometimes your body open something up in you that, when I’m really thinking about a really tough theoretical concept, and then I decide I need to take a break and go for a run, or do some Yoga, then sometimes my body awakened something for me, it says, Oh, you know, when I was just sitting at my seat typing away on my computer, I couldn’t access that, but now my body’s enlivening it for me. Then, to try to do that work in our retreats to access all parts of ourselves that many of us go days and weeks and years and lifetimes without accessing those parts of ourselves and if we want to honor the fullness of who we are then that means our mind, our heart, and our body altogether.

Candice Wu 39:06

Beautifully said and it’s such a way to honor because in letting our body inlive in something in us, show us something, learn something from it, it’s such a different view from the common experience that I know many people have that their body is against them and then they kind of have to deal with it.

Angela Yarber 39:30

Yes.

Candice Wu 39:30

Right. This is saying, there’s something wise here and let it show you. Let it show you something that maybe your mind can’t quite get yet until it opens up this way or maybe you can’t get all together, but that you’re by holds.

Angela Yarber 39:47

Yes. I think that’s an important part of some of the ritual work I do.

Angela Yarber 39:54

When I was a seminary professor, I’ve taught courses on worship and ritual and different spiritual traditions, and then have used that kind of theoretical, alongside the practical and many of the retreats that I lead where we do some of these ritual exercises that if you just were to describe them, or read about them, they sound, Oh, that sounds effective or meaningful. But then when you do it physically with your body, whether it’s kind of this meditative body scan of checking in with every part of yourself and washing over it with love while also pulling away the judgment and shame that you’ve carried there, that physically doing it, especially in community, in a community of subversive sister saints who are doing alongside you, does something really powerful because your brain and your heart and your body are all working together. And that gives you an opportunity that we often don’t take in our everyday lives, to pause and check-in with every part of us and see what’s kind of lurking there and sometimes it stirs up issues all the way from childhood, issues of shame. And sometimes it also stirs up issues of strength to say, oh, as much of I’ve changed my thighs, you know, for whatever it is not having that perpetual pop culture thigh gap or something that we realized, Oh, you know, these thighs picked up and carried my young child on this hike. And today, instead of shaming them, I’m going to honor their strength and what they’ve carried me through, that just saying and talking about that doesn’t carry the weight and the impact of doing it in ritual and in community.

Candice Wu 41:33

I agree with that 100% and I’ve even, you know, read things and kind of minimize them. Like, oh, yeah, that sounds great, right? And then it’s just totally different when you do even the most simple thing. The thing that sounds simple to the mind, to the logic, it can be incredibly profound and life-changing or powerful. And as you’re saying, especially in the resonance of women or other sisters or people that bring more to you, more resource and support, or who are right in line with that desire and space being held.

Candice Wu 42:14

Incredibly powerful.

Angela Yarber 42:16

Yeah. Thank you. Yes.

Candice Wu 42:19

So while we’re here, you have a retreat coming up that is bringing together women.

Angela Yarber 42:25

I do.

Candice Wu 42:27

Can you tell us about it?

Angela Yarber 42:28

So, yes, I’m so excited about this and it’s actually at a retreat center with Darshan Mendoza. who you had on your podcast before runs, Akuahā Healing Center in Volcano, Hawaii, so I live on the Big Island, the nonprofit Holy Women Icons Project is on the Big Island, and I’ve led a lot of retreats in my day. But I’ve typically been invited to go somewhere to lead those retreats. So this is one where folks, women and genderqueer folks are certainly invited and of course, I believe transwomen are women, so of course, are included and invited to come out and spend New Year’s with us. So it begins December 31st, ends January 4th. And this isn’t just a new year, but this is a whole new decade. And this is the last retreat that Darshan is offering at her retreat center. So it’s this way to close this last year with gratitude, begin the new year and the new decade with intention, and it’s really for, I say, justice-minded spiritual women.

Angela Yarber 42:29

Yes.

Angela Yarber 42:48

And by that, I mean, if you’ve ever felt that spirituality excluded you or was too confining for you, or if you need a creative outlet for your spirits, if you need to see representations of other marginalized women holding creative, powerful spiritual space, if you feel so exhausted and drained from fighting the white-supremacist-sis-hetero-patriarchy.

Candice Wu 44:01

Yeah.

Angela Yarber 44:01

If you feel drained from trying to be a woman in this world, then this is a space specifically for you where we can come together to do three things simultaneously, so indulge me in this kind of analogy that I’ve created, that’s for the Holy Women Icons Project’s empowerment work, but specifically for this retreat.

Angela Yarber 44:23

I say that oftentimes women’s empowerment work is like a power saw. So stick with me on this it will come back to the retreat here. I say that it’s like a power saw because if your power saw is not working, this is a very lesbionic metaphor that I say as a queer woman: if your power saw is not working, there’s typically one of three things wrong with it, either your blade is too dull and it needs sharpening or replacement, the battery that’s charging your saw is drained and you need to recharge it or your power source is faulty so it can’t charge your battery. And I think most women’s empowerment work only focuses on the battery recharge and the blade sharpening. This is what I mean by that.

Angela Yarber 45:07

You can often go on a retreat that’s just about blade sharpening like a meditation retreat, a Yoga retreat, something where, you know, you wake up at five in the morning, you do several hours of Yoga, you eat like three pomegranate seeds for breakfast. You’re doing all of this — I’m exaggerating a bit there, but you’re doing all these —

Candice Wu 45:25

Really? I mean —

Angela Yarber 45:28

Just turning inward to focus on modifying your behaviors and your perspective and those are important things. It’s important to be mindful of your work. It’s important to turn inward and sharpen yourself to modify your behaviors in your perspective. But that isn’t the only work we need to do. So there’s that and then there’s also the self-care retreats and that’s important too, where we recharge this drained battery, right. We talked about that a lot these days of recharging so that you do a bubble bath or you have a glass of wine, or you sleep for eight hours.

Candice Wu 46:02

Right.

Angela Yarber 46:03

Do all of those things that often women don’t get to do on a regular basis because of work, parenting, etc. And so you know, you either have this kind of seemingly self-indulgent self-care, you know, relax by the pool, take a bubble bath, get a massage, or this blade sharpening, but then we forget about the power source and that is, in our society and our culture, I believe the power systems that are in place, are systematically designed to disempower marginalized people. But I think strategically… if we go through every system, whether it’s criminal justice, education, parental leave, the workplace, they’re designed to make marginalized women be exhausted. And so when we go to recharge our battery, we’re plugging it into a faulty system that’s going to make us feel as though we are less than, we are worthless or there’s something wrong with us because we aren’t feeling fully recharged. When it’s not our battery, it’s not our blade, it’s the power system.

Angela Yarber 47:19

And so on this retreat, we’re trying to bring all three of these together. We want the blade sharpened by being mindful, by turning inward, by altering some of our behaviors and our perspectives, so that we can go into this new year, a new decade, as sharp as possible. But we simultaneously want to do self-care for collective liberation. We want to go in the sauna, or sit by the pool or engage in some lavish self-care exercises, while we also examine the structures in our personal lives and in our collective society that are designed to disenfranchise us and to see how we can subvert and dismantle them.

Candice Wu 48:01

Yes.

Angela Yarber 48:03

Yes, and so I think of all of this, I think of the often-quoted piece from Audre Lorde, “caring for myself is not self-indulgence. It is self-preservation. And that is an act of political warfare.” And that she says that from a sister outsider perspective as a black, lesbian poet, warrior, mother.

Angela Yarber 48:27

And that on this retreat, we’re trying to do all of these things. It’s not just a social justice conference. It’s not just a self-care vacation. It’s not just a meditation retreat, for example, it’s a place for blade sharpening, to recharge, and to examine these power structures with other justice-minded spiritual women with this subversive Sisterhood of Saints and that includes our genderqueer kindred, so that in one day, we can — Yes, and one day we can be doing this — I have this intentional creative method for painting an icon so everyone there will paint their own icon of either an icon of themselves, the goddess within, so that they can pick this image and a word that’s written across the heart to be their word for the next year and for the next decade, to remind them to hold their heads hig, to stretch their arms wide, to engage in this process and with each step in the painting process, their rituals and guided writing exercises and journaling, and movement exercises and meditations and these lavish self-care rituals whether it’s you know, the sounds superficial on the surface, but whether it’s making our own body scrub and then sitting down and washing one another’s feet to slough away all the muck from the past year to then shine forth our new feet and our new face for the new decade and year. And that seems silly, but when —

Candice Wu 49:55

No, it’s gorgeous.

Angela Yarber 49:57

All the other work that we’re doing, yes. So, Not only do we get beautifully, exfoliated feet, but our feet can march forward, galvanized and empowered and enlivened into the new year to keep doing this justice work in the world, so that we aren’t completely drained, so that we can leave the retreat also with these tools to enliven us throughout the year, throughout the decade, so that we’re not doing this work alone. So that we’re surrounded by this subversive Sisterhood of Saints who enliven and inspire us still. And in so doing, we realize that we are enlivening and inspiring others, that we’re arm in arm, marching onward.

Candice Wu 50:41

Oh, my goodness!

Angela Yarber 50:42

Enlivening one another. Yes. Now, I want you to come, right?

Candice Wu 50:47

I know, I mean, didn’t you see in my mind, I was like, what am I doing for New Year? And I — Yes, oh my gosh, this gives me chills!

Candice Wu 50:58

This gives me chills and it’s so beautifully designed with this inside-outside experience that is completely whole and oh my gosh, it’s so nourishing.

Angela Yarber 51:13

Oh, thank you and it’s here at this stunning retreat center that Darshan has created, you know literally a couple of miles from Volcano National park so where new land is being formed, the goddess Pele of the volcano of Kilauea where this is a kind of new life and rebirth happening every day. So it’s this beautiful spiritual place. And you know, it’s Hawaii so you don’t get much more beautiful than that. And that we can travel together to some of these breathtaking spaces, journal in hand, and set by the crashing Pacific you know, as we see sea turtles body surfing and the waves I’m not making this up. You know, I literally walked to this yesterday.

Angela Yarber 52:00

And to be renewed and enlivened, because everyone deserves to be surrounded by beauty. And for me, I think that’s so much of the trust of our work that I believe that beauty is the end goal for justice that we’re not just working for the hungry to be given cheap processed food, or those without a home to be given a dank-rickety-shelter, but for all of us to be surrounded by beauty and inspiration, then justice has come.

Angela Yarber 52:27

And that’s part of this work that these, you know, the women and the genderqueer folks who come on these retreats are people who are doing this work in our world. So it’s a way of saying thank you for this work and now let’s nourish you so that your cup is overflowing so that when you return to your work and your world, you have enough to pour into others, that your cup isn’t dry, and that you can have the tools to take home to keep refilling your cup so that you can keep pouring out your goodness and your justice in the world like with the work that you, Candice are doing in the world through your podcasts and everything you do for all of us, for all of these amazing women who just are pouring and pouring, I want to be able to pour this work into them so that they can keep doing their work in the world and in an enlivening, nourished, cared for way.

Candice Wu 53:14

This feels like the essence of you and your work in this beautiful bang. Like, —

Angela Yarber 53:22

Thank you. Yes, I feel like we need to take a big, deep breath.

Candice Wu 53:29

Ah, thank you so much.

Angela Yarber 53:31

I realized I might have just stepped into a pulpit here so —

Candice Wu 53:36

What do you mean?

Angela Yarber 53:38

Right. Well, I think I’m just — this is, I’m so passionate about this that I realized in many ways, my amazing mother said when I left the church, she said, you know, you’re creating other pulpits in the world and the Holy Women Icons Project is now your pulpit in the world. So you know I’m preaching in a different way.

Candice Wu 53:57

Yeah.

Angela Yarber 53:58

And in ways that I hope are more expansive and more embracing and welcoming of others, because for some, when they hear that word, preach or pulpit, they want to go running in the other direction. And believe me, when I say, I get that.

Candice Wu 54:10

Right.

Angela Yarber 54:12

So in painting and writing and this retreat work, and podcasts and the work you’re doing, and I’m doing, I think that we are saying, you know that this world is beautiful and this world is also unjust, and we want to create a bridge in between, and we can imagine a more beautiful world and our work can create that, for us and for others.

Candice Wu 54:36

I feel like I can’t say anything right there, but just acknowledged what you’ve said because it’s beautiful and you are creating a more expansive pulpit. It just breaks the balance of any pulpit but is the world we live in. You’re creating that. Thank you so much.

Candice Wu 54:54

Yes, and you are as well. And I imagine that so many of your listeners are as well that, you know, we just have this amazing, I don’t know, now I might be getting too cheesy, but we just have this amazing opportunity in the world every day to give and do really beautiful things and believe me when I say, I think dismantling the patriarchy and things like that dismantling the system, those are beautiful things that need to be done that, just like Pele, this Goddess of the volcano here, she destroys —

Candice Wu 55:26

Yeah.

Angela Yarber 55:26

– in order to create and sometimes we have got to burn that stuff down in order to create new life.

Candice Wu 55:35

Yes.

Candice Wu 55:36

Well, Angela, this has been wonderful and I’m wondering if — Oh, first before we shift from the retreat, you have a very special offering for listeners.

Angela Yarber 55:48

Yes, so just for your listeners on the Embody Podcast, we’ve done a little discount or I think a big discount to get $50 off the retreat registration. So, if you go to Holywomenicons.com/groupretreats, and you register for the retreat, and you use the promo code: RETREAT2020. So all capitals, RETREAT2020, then you can get $50 off your registration.

Angela Yarber 56:18

And I also always want to say we do this work for marginalized communities, and so there are a lot of us from those communities who have the means to afford a retreat like this, and so I think, if folks do I say, by all means, please pay, but there are a lot of folks who might not have the full means and so if you really feel led and called to go, but you need a little bit more resources, we might be able to find someone who could help out with a scholarship or something.

Candice Wu 56:43

Wonderful.

Angela Yarber 56:43

So I would want if someone needs that, you know, to email me, to just go to Holywomenicons.com and contact me and, you know, I even had a woman who she can’t end up coming on this retreat, but we worked out a great deal that she’s coming here and staying in our little retreat house on my property, and going to one of the free “one day retreats” that I offer to revolutionary women so I want to work with folks and make it possible. But ultimately, I hope I would love to have you know, a dozen or 15 of these amazing subversive sister saints coming on this New Year’s retreat with us in Volcano, Hawaii

Candice Wu 57:19

Calling all subversive sisterhood saints.

Angela Yarber 57:23

Yes.

Candice Wu 57:25

Yes.

Angela Yarber 57:26

Wield your paintbrush and your hammer to smash and to create.

Candice Wu 57:32

And let’s get that fire going to burn it to the ground. And —

Angela Yarber 57:36

Yes.

Candice Wu 57:37

Bring anew.

Candice Wu 57:39

Thank you, Angela. As we close today, I love how you bring a closing blessing to each of your Holy Woman Icons emails. Would you like to bring anything here as we close today?

Angela Yarber 57:53

Yes.

Angela Yarber 57:54

I would say subversive sister saints when the world has got you down and you wonder if you cannot do this anymore, remember that you are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses of women who have gone before you and who surround you still, so hold your head high, spread your arms wide take up space for you are worthy and worthwhile.

Candice Wu 58:22

Thank you. I’m almost in tears feeling that. Thank you.

Angela Yarber 58:28

Thank you. Wonderful Is there anything else you’d like to share, Angela?

Angela Yarber 58:31

I think just the side of me that is attempting to learn business and marketing would say if you’re interested in more please head to www.holywomenicons.com/join and sign up for our weekly revolutionary email list and you can order some of our artwork or paintings, prints, sign up for an online retreat, if you can’t make it to Hawaii, order a book, all of that, anything that you buy goes directly back into the nonprofit to help empower marginalized women, and connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And those connections are ones that I see as very real that expands our cloud of subversive sister saints. So I love to engage with folks, both through our email and through social media.

Candice Wu 59:19

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Angela.

Angela Yarber 59:23

Thank you.

Candice Wu 59:25

I’m so grateful Angela that you came onto the show and have shared your story, along with the stories of other women who fuel you and energize your work and your life. Thank you so much.

Candice Wu 59:38

And I can just see this image of future women, future queer, and women of color, looking towards you and what you’ve created, to enliven what they’re doing in their lives and to bring so much more ease that you’re releasing into the world, used to be ourselves.

Candice Wu 1:00:01

Thank you all for joining us and listening. Be sure to check out the Holy Women Icons Project at www.holywomenicons.com and this is where you can find the retreat as well as join Angela’s newsletter that goes out every week to offer stories of women that are similar to the story she told today.

Candice Wu 1:00:23

Thank you so much for being here. I hope you enjoyed the show today, and feel free to connect with me on my newsletter at CandiceWu.com/embody where you’ll get updates of other guests, other retreats that are going on, events and updates about me and that’s CandiceWu.com/embody. Sending you lots of love and the inspiration to come into your own holiness and sacredness in the way that it suits you. Thanks so much for joining us on the Embody Podcast and see you next time.

Chinelle Rojas 0:00

“I’m just a go-getter. It’s a bit like I like to say in my bio, I’m a go-getter. I go get groceries, go get things for my kids, but I also, you know, a creative at heart. So, I’m always trying to channel that into something.”

Candice Wu 0:23

That’s Chinelle Rojas, the guest of this episode, Chinelle brings an intimate, raw, real, unapologetic, tender and powerful way of revealing stories and experiences of births, and very specific images of women and families of color in their goddess, and between worlds with their babies.

Candice Wu 0:44

In this episode, she talks about how she’s able to create a ripple effect of change for black women and women of color through her photography.

Candice Wu 0:57

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, embodied healing and self-love.

Candice Wu 1:10

My name is Candice Wu and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist, sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:28

I want to make a quick announcement that also is in support of the podcast that I’ve recently been supporting people by holding one-on-one emergence with them. This is completely collaborative and designed specifically by you or you can hand over the details to me to handle, but it is a wonderful opportunity to get one on one time with me in an immersive setting where we can work exactly what with what you are wanting, desiring, challenged within your life, from all these different ways of embodied healing, family constellations, somatic experiencing, spiritual practices, voice dialogue as well as being a space that you and I select together that can hold your experience.

Candice Wu 2:25

This can be with or without a horse, where we have experiences to be with a horse, and journey into connection and wisdom that the horse can bring. The horses are extremely intuitive and consents, what you’re feeling and what you’re not feeling, and mirror that to you as a way to bring you more information on the next path of your life.

Candice Wu 2:53

I love doing this work with people because it gives me the chance to hold that space in a longer period of time that we can really go deep and get to the root of things as well as support you in feeling the peace and pleasure that you want to feel. You can find more about that at CandiceWu.com, and also by reaching out to me via email or through the website at Embody at CandiceWu.com.

Candice Wu 3:21

This offering, as well as other offerings that I have, are all in support of the podcast. Some of the proceeds go towards producing this podcast and bringing new guests on, and I’ve been talking about this for a couple of weeks now, but there is a database of all healing experientials and meditations that are on the podcast by me as well as guests, and you can search on that for things that you’re looking for, the pages at CandiceWu.com/meditations. The podcast also has its own search at CandiceWu.com/podcast.

Candice Wu 3:57

On top of that, each of the podcasts are being transcribed. The experientials and meditations are, too. So, in case you prefer to digest the material through the written word and your visual acuity, then you can go on to each podcast link, and right below where it says that you can click to listen, there’s a transcription. The experientials and meditations are being completed in backward order, so, starting from the newest and most recent, working its way backward, and we’ve got about three-quarters of them done, which is really exciting. Now let’s jump into this episode.

Candice Wu 4:37

Welcome, everyone. It’s good to have you back. As we bring this episode forward, I want to highlight how Chinelle brought the topic of how powerful in images, we look at images all the time, and they inform what we think, what we think we know, what we know, and how it is that we approach the world, and I was just thinking about being with horses, and all of the pictures that I’ve been posting on Instagram lately of just being around them and with them meditating with them, and there is a part of me that hopes that more people will see that where horses are at liberty and they’re not forced to do anything, but we respect them and listen to them, and are able to take in the wisdom that they’re bringing, the gifts that they’re bringing without forcing them to do what they don’t want to do.

Candice Wu 5:38

Of course, some horses love riding or love to work in a certain way, but some of them are not and they’re hurt or taken from their homes or forced to do things when they’re showing us with their cues and their emotions that they don’t like it. So, that was just something I’ve been thinking about as I had completed this interview with Chinelle, and I wonder in what way you might find inspiration with that in the images that you’re sharing. What is it that you share if you post on Facebook, Instagram or LinkedIn or any sort of social media? What is it that you see? And what is that doing for? What is the status quo or the change that is emerging in the world?

Candice Wu 6:34

So, just some food for thought as we jump into this episode, with Chinelle Rojas, who is the Tampa birth photographer. Chinelle’s eye for honesty in her photographs and life is really beautiful and inspiring to me, and it on earth silenced and quieted areas of our humanity into conversation through her imagery. She shares that she started her photography journey late in 2010, and shot her first birth in the spring of 2011, and she’s an advocate in the birth community and the founder of The Melanated Birth, which is a community dedicated to the representation of families of color and birth, and whose mission is to bring awareness to women of color of all the options available to them through their birthing process, through imagery of birth.

Candice Wu 7:26

So, from her, you’ll learn why diversity in the birth world is greatly needed, and how it can truly save lives, and how if you’re a photographer, you can work towards building a diverse portfolio or if you are interested in having someone capture the moments of your birth or in bringing your birth images to the world, you can touch in wishing out. I also really enjoyed the part of the conversation where we talked about slaves birthing, and what she did when she googled it and found only like one image, the creative solution she found to bring some exposure to that world. So, without further ado, here is Chinelle Rojas.

Candice Wu 8:19

Right, Chinelle, I’m so excited to have you here today on the podcast. Your work has really inspired me and I just love scrolling through Instagram. You’re a birth photographer, wife, mom, an advocate, logo designer, videographer and photographer. It’s a lot of things. So, I’d like to welcome you to the show.

Chinelle Rojas 8:41

Thanks for having me.

Candice Wu 8:44

So, tell me, tell me about your work and what draws you into what you do.

Chinelle Rojas 8:51

So, obviously, that depends on what work you’re referring to, exactly…

Candice Wu 8:57

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 8:58

Because I do a lot of things, but with the birth, like the whole birth photography thing, backstory as a kid growing up, I was wanted to be a doctor, and then I got to the end of high school and realized in order to be a doctor, I had to do a lot more school, and decided, maybe not, I don’t want to be a doctor.

Candice Wu 9:25

The practical side comes through.

Chinelle Rojas 9:27

Yeah, you’re like, No, no, I don’t think so.

Candice Wu 9:29

You, not too much.

Chinelle Rojas 9:30

So, I hung that up. The whole idea of being a doctor, I did attempt to go to college like four times and dropped out four times, wasted money and all that kind of stuff, but ultimately, I kind of found my way into the birth photography realm and realized this is a way to be a part of the medical community. Things that interest me don’t curse me out without actually having to have a degree and go to school for a bajillion more years, and I just like the storytelling aspect of it, and it’s so empowering just to be like a witness to like life coming into the world. There’s nothing like it and I just kind of enjoy doing it. I’m so glad that I like, took that step and tried it.

Candice Wu 10:35

Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, maybe it’s really fitting we can hear your kids in the background. Talking about life into the world and touring the world.

Chinelle Rojas 10:46

Yes.

Candice Wu 10:47

Yeah. You know, that was really, that’s really one of the things that draws me to your photography, with birth photography is that it just, it feels like you are capturing and you’re witnessing and being with this just magical experience that probably has no words to describe, but if you could try, what is it like for you to be in the room with a woman or a couple, whoever is birthing, and to documented and capture these moments.

Chinelle Rojas 11:26

It’s transcendent. I like that word. It’s a good word, but it’s a really amazing experience that you don’t really get tired of. You get this thing you go into a birth, as soon as I get a call from a client, I could be half-asleep, and I get a call and I am immediately awake, full of adrenaline ready to get going. When I get to a birth, I’m there with the family, just being a part of that piece of their story. So, they’re going to remember that I was there, you know, their baby might not, but, they’ll remember that I was there and I was able to document that for them.

Chinelle Rojas 12:15

So, that’s really awesome. It also appeals to my interest in birth, well, the medical field in general. I always learn something new at every birth, like something that I didn’t know before or you know, wasn’t fully aware of. So, like I just add a little bit more, a little bit more to my toolbox of random knowledge that maybe would help another birthing family at some point.

Candice Wu 12:46

Um, what are some of those things?

Chinelle Rojas 12:49

This is something that I learned not at a birth but in, like, one of my mom groups, like pregnancy groups. When my daughter was born, we had another mom in the mom group who, when she had her son, he got stuck in the birth canal. So, he had shoulder dystocia and because of that, he ended up having, what is it? Erb’s palsy, which I found very interesting.

Chinelle Rojas 13:22

So, fast forward, less than a year later, I was at a birth and this family, baby got stuck on the way out. It was a very awesome birth, and then things got really crazy, really quickly. They, things were happening so fast that they had no idea what was going on. They just know that all of a sudden, doctors are pushing on her belly and trying to get the baby out as quick as possible. Dad did not get to cut the cord and as soon as they took the baby out, he went straight to a warmer, and they were just confused, like, they didn’t know, “What was happening?” Stuff like that, and being that I kind of paid attention to that other mom’s experience. I was able to kind of reassure them because I went over and I was taking pictures of the baby, they were making sure he was okay and everything was moving good.

Chinelle Rojas 14:21

So, in doing that, I walked back over to the family and I let them know, like, “Hey, this is kind of what’s happening.” You know, as everybody’s attention is on the baby, and her OB’s attention is on making sure that she’s like, okay, after pushing the baby out, you know, getting the placenta out, all that kind of stuff. So, I was just like, you know, I went up to them and I was just going to kind of explaining to them what was happening because nobody at that particular moment was telling them anything.

Chinelle Rojas 14:53

So…

Candice Wu 14:54

Wow, which is very scary, you know, when you don’t have any information…

Chinelle Rojas 14:57

..yeah, so, they will do something they didn’t know what to do or what was happening and I just kind of told him I was like, “Yeah, he got stuck. Right now, they’re just making sure that he can move his arm and it looks like everything’s gonna be fine because he was, you know, raising it just fine and all that kind of stuff.” So, I’m like, I don’t think there’s going to be any lasting effects. After a few minutes, and they confirmed what I had told them already, the baby got handed to mother and everything was fine.

Candice Wu 15:28

Ah, that’s so nice.

Chinelle Rojas 15:30

It was really special to me just because that was the first time ever that an OB walked up to me after everything was all said and done, and she was like, this family’s very lucky to have had you as part of their team. So, thank you, and I was like, “Oh my God.”

Candice Wu 15:47

Oh my gosh, I want to cry hearing this.

Chinelle Rojas 15:53

That was like the first time I ever heard this especially from an OB because you know, like, typically, you don’t expect them to be that welcoming, especially in the case of an emergency situation or stuff like that.

Candice Wu 16:06

Right.

Chinelle Rojas 16:06

So, that was really, really reassuring to hear.

Candice Wu 16:11

And what an essential part of everything you were, not just in documenting, but in seeing and knowing what was going on and to be that grounding presence that supports them. That’s amazing.

Chinelle Rojas 16:27

It was really nice. And things like that similar things have happened, in different births or whatever we’re like something might be happening, and the family could be a first time parent, could be a young parent, young, first-time parent all of the above, who’s just like unsure of what to do or what is happening, and just need somebody to like, explain to them on a, like, basic level. So, what’s going on what their options are and stuff like that. That’s not my job. My job is just to take pictures. If they’re looking to me for answers to questions that they might have, like, you know, when the doctor steps out of the room and stuff like that, then I will happily answer. You know, at the end of the day, my job is to support them and whatever decision that they make, and I feel like you can only make a really good decision if you know the options.

Candice Wu 17:26

Hmm, beautiful. And I don’t know if you know this about me, Chinelle, but I work with a lot of trauma, and sometimes, that’s emotional or relational. Sometimes, that’s getting in a car accident and where someone’s nervous system is shaken up, and sometimes, it’s with birth experiences or whether that the baby or the mother or the father or the partner or whoever. And so, when I say it’s trauma, just an experience that’s overwhelming to the nervous system…

Chinelle Rojas 18:02

Right.

Candice Wu 18:02

…or scary in some way, and when life is coming through there can be moments of fear of death or what will happen, and I can just imagine that you being in the room, too, with your presence, and documenting and capturing the experience that sometimes when you experience overwhelm you don’t see everything or recall it.

Chinelle Rojas 18:29

Oh, for sure.

Candice Wu 18:30

And here you are. Yeah, you have this extra lens, not just your eyes, but the camera lens, and that just seems like it can complete help complete something for the family if they needed that for that tool as well, you know, like, “Wow, I didn’t know that happened,” to experience anything related to what I’m saying.

Chinelle Rojas 18:54

Oh my gosh, like, in my own personal experience, as a birthing person, there are things that you do not remember, while having your baby, like, you could try all your might, you will not remember it. So, I feel like it’s so important to have that somebody there, even if it’s not a professional, although professional would be ideal, have somebody there to document that whole experience because you would be amazed at the things you missed.

Chinelle Rojas 19:30

For instance, on my third child, my daughter, is my last baby. So, I had both my mom and my dad, as well as my husband, at the birth of my daughter. It was very interesting considering my parents are divorced, so, it was like, they’re like brothers, it was actually a really good experience because they were like acting as if they were almost like brother and sister and the dynamic of speaking and…

Candice Wu 20:01

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 20:02

…my sister was sick at the time, so I didn’t have her to document that birth, but I did give my dad the camera. Granted like 75% of the images were blown out or just blurry, but some of the stuff he did capture, I was like, “I do not remember that at all.” And one of the images that stood out to me the most was a picture of my mom, on it, she’s on the opposite side of the bed as my dad was standing and my husband, and as soon as my daughter came out the look on her face was very, like, she was an “Oh!” [Child noises in the background] Oh my gosh, I’m sorry. She’s gonna come like during a time when I wasn’t in the middle of a story.

Candice Wu 20:50

Well, is she the one you’re talking about?

Chinelle Rojas 20:52

She is the one.

Candice Wu 20:53

That’s why she came.

Chinelle Rojas 20:54

She is the one.

Candice Wu 20:56

Maybe she felt you.

Chinelle Rojas 20:58

Caught me talking about her.

Candice Wu 21:00

I believe that. I have been working with horses has really shown me that, too, because all I need to do is think something.

Chinelle Rojas 21:11

Mm-hmm.

Candice Wu 21:12

If I’m connected with the horses, and either they’ll respond to it.

Chinelle Rojas 21:16

That’s awesome.

Candice Wu 21:18

Or I can be totally on grounded and they’re like, not paying attention to me, and that’s exactly reflecting what’s going on to me. I wouldn’t doubt that.

Chinelle Rojas 21:27

Maybe I should channel that for my parenting.

Candice Wu 21:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 21:33

Because they can sense your fear.

Candice Wu 21:37

Yes, they can. Well, and if they don’t know it, they’re nervous systems do. Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 21:44

They know when you don’t know what you’re doing.

Candice Wu 21:46

Right.

Chinelle Rojas 21:51

Yeah.

Candice Wu 21:52

So, you were in the middle of saying when she came out, your mom’s face?

Chinelle Rojas 21:58

Yeah. When my daughter came out, the look on my mom’s face was just, I don’t know, it was indescribable, like, she had a big ol smile on her face tears in her eyes, and she was just like, in awe, you know, and I don’t know that picture is very special to me because here I am pushing my daughter out. My daughter’s emerging, and my mom is there in the frame witnessing it all, and that’s a moment I didn’t know was happening. You know.

Candice Wu 22:31

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 22:31

Not been for that picture, I would have never known that was what was going on with my mother. So, like, that’s just one instance. I get all the time from, you know, birthing families, like I didn’t even realize that that was the thing or that I was doing that or that my partner was doing that. I don’t know. It’s just, it’s amazing to be able to like fill in those gaps.

Candice Wu 22:59

Yeah. That sounds incredible, and it’s such an experience that you’d want us, and not in every case, of course, but if it were me, I’d want to see every single bit of the experience, you know, if everyone in the room. Maybe there were things I want to see it myself, but this precious, precious moments like your mom in awe.

Chinelle Rojas 23:28

exactly. I only, like, my only regret with all three of my kids was that I didn’t hire an actual professional. With my first son, I didn’t even know birth photography was a thing. So, I have like zero pictures to remember that experience with him. With my second I had my sister and I was still like, very young in the birth photography world, I guess. So, I told my sister I was like, I do not want any crowd shots, and what do I look at or what do I see when I’m scrolling through the pictures that she took, but crotch shots.

Candice Wu 24:11

Oh.

Chinelle Rojas 24:12

Like, are you serious? And I wasn’t even, like, it wasn’t even crowning, like, that’s what annoying part is like, it’s just literally my vagina all out in the open and swollen because the baby’s coming down, but he’s not crowning. So, it’s not really…

Candice Wu 24:30

It’s not the moment.

Chinelle Rojas 24:32

Like, why are these here? You know, and then when I have my dad and most of the pictures did not come out good, you know, and I would have loved to have also seen what my husband’s face looked like…

Candice Wu 24:46

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 24:47

…because I have no idea. I would have loved to be able to see my dad in the pictures because I know he was there, you know, but I don’t know.

Candice Wu 24:57

And this is really, you know, I feel sad that you don’t have those experiences for you, and at the same time, it also sounds like that informs how you’re able to capture for the families, the story of what’s going on, you’re paying attention to each person in the room.

Chinelle Rojas 25:16

Yes, which can be really hard, especially if there are some more people, it can be really hard to, you know, focus on everyone. So, I always ask my clients, like, they get a questionnaire, a little in-take questionnaire, like, what moments are most important to you? Most people say, “I want a good mix of everything,” but I’m like, you know, at the same time, why are you more interested in seeing the emotions of people’s faces? Do you want the moment of birth? Or would you prefer, you know, just the feel of the room?

Candice Wu 25:55

Mm-hmm.

Chinelle Rojas 25:56

So, that helps to dictate what I capture as well, but overall, I think I’m getting like, it’s still a little bit of a learning curve to try to be able to get everybody.

Candice Wu 26:10

Yeah, so I can imagine that would be hard.

Chinelle Rojas 26:13

Yeah, but I do my best at worse, I get the immediate feelings of like, like right after birth. So, and all the moments leading up to it.

Candice Wu 26:27

Wow. So, I want to shift gears a little bit. I’m really interested in your activism work with this. Something that I saw on your website is that you’re dedicated to the representation of families of color, in birth, and spreading awareness of birth options to women of color, and what you said was “A world where our little pebble of documenting births can make waves on the mortality rate of mothers across the country or the world.” How amazing would that be?

Chinelle Rojas 27:05

Yes, yes. That would be amazing.

Candice Wu 27:11

Can you talk about how you see this and what it is that you see as part of what you’re doing here, or as an outcome of what you’re doing?

Chinelle Rojas 27:19

I feel like being as, being a birth photographer, we have a very unique role in the birth space, and that says a documenter. I feel like, I don’t know, especially in the age of like social media and stuff like that, people are influenced by what they see. Their choices are skewed by what they’re seeing other people doing. So, my thought process is that if we, as people of color, are able to see more people birthing in, you know, “non-traditional ways”, which, like, in reality, they are actually the most traditional ways.

Candice Wu 28:03

Yeah, like, probably their most indigenous ways.

Chinelle Rojas 28:08

Exactly. Outside of a hospital, not using epidurals, not like, you know, choosing to have a C section, then maybe those images that we see will encourage us to at least look into other options besides what we consider the norm, which would be in a hospital without the drugs, you know, which I think in seeing those images, then we have a chance to curb the mortality rate. So, it is almost common knowledge, now. At least in the birth world, I feel that Black Americans, I don’t like to say African Americans because not all black Americans are African Americans. So, Black Americans are dying at three to four times the rate of every other racial demographic in the United States during pregnancy postpartum, and birth, which is outrageous.

Candice Wu 29:25

It’s outrageous.

Chinelle Rojas 29:26

And most of these, yes, most of these deaths are happening in the hospital setting where you think you’d be the safest. So, that’s why I feel like when we see pictures of women who look like us birthing in places outside of a hospital, maybe seeing that triggering, the thought that “Hey, maybe I can do that, too.” Then you’d be more likely to look into the other options that are available to you, possibly pursue those options and ultimately, you could be saving your own life by choosing to go a different route.

Chinelle Rojas 30:03

So, that’s what I mean by like the little pebble, just an image, and of course it takes those of us taking the images and those of us in the images to be willing to share those images.

Candice Wu 30:17

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 30:17

You know, not everybody’s comfortable with sharing this story, okay. It shouldn’t be anyone person’s job to spread awareness to the world, but in sharing, like or being willing to share if it was a to really save someone’s life. So, that’s really the ultimate…

Candice Wu 30:37

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 30:38

..goal.

Candice Wu 30:39

Yeah. It’s a really beautiful reminder overall of the power of sharing in one image, one pebble, but specifically for saving, saving lives and Black lives, especially given the statistics that you shared and I was just curious if you had a sense of why that is that Black Americans are dying at a rate of three to four times more.

Chinelle Rojas 31:10

Yes, it is multifaceted. It is the health care system. There’s a lot of unspoken racial bias when it comes to the healthcare system, like maybe in terms of like pain management and stuff like that. It’s often noted that Black Americans have a higher pain tolerance. So, maybe when they complain of pain, it’s brushed off, you know, as, “Oh, it’s probably nothing or whatever they can handle it.” And in turn that leads to, it’s like we’re not being listened to. So, we’re not getting the care that we need. So, it just trickles down and in some cases, it causes that. That’s one.

Candice Wu 32:04

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 32:05

One of the biggest things like the whole systemic racism.

Candice Wu 32:09

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 32:09

And it’s happening.

Candice Wu 32:10

Right.

Chinelle Rojas 32:12

But also, I cannot in good conscience put it all on the medical field. I haven’t gotten backlash for saying this before, too, but I believe that we have a role to play in the crisis as well. I mean, I feel like we need to be interested in stepping outside of our comfort zone, you know, and taking the necessary steps to take control of our health and not rely solely on what a doctor says, just because they’re a doctor. You know what I mean?

Candice Wu 32:54

Absolutely.

Chinelle Rojas 32:56

So, yeah, we have the power to save our own lives, but we get complacent as well.

Candice Wu 33:02

Mmm-hmm. And you have this provocative and stimulating series, Unto Us, a Slave is Born. It’s one of the titles they think.

Chinelle Rojas 33:17

Yes.

Candice Wu 33:17

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 33:20

I just added a third part of that.

Candice Wu 33:24

I saw that just before the interview today, so…

Chinelle Rojas 33:28

Yes.

Candice Wu 33:29

….can you speak to this series for those who haven’t seen it and for those who have.

Chinelle Rojas 33:35

Okay, so, the series stemmed from me. Well, last year, I started to shift in my business, I decided to stop being so quiet about the things that bother me, the things that I see and just be more vocal about my feelings, and actually, allow it to trickle into my business. Doing so, changed my logo, all that kind of stuff, to be more representative of who I am as a person. And while I was doing all that, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I wonder what kind of images that I could find on Google about like, I want to see what it looked like for, like our ancestors, slaves in America to give birth,” like a wondered really deeply what that might have looked like. I found minor articles, but like, the only real image I kept popping up on Google Images was that image of, oh my gosh, what’s his name? James Marion Simmons, and the slave woman he was experimenting on, on a table. The only image that I could really find just readily accessible on Google, you know.

Candice Wu 35:01

Hmm. Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 35:02

This is crap. What is this?

Candice Wu 35:04

There’s no documentation, practically.

Chinelle Rojas 35:06

Like where, but nothing that you could find it easily. Yeah, I mean, I’ve heard people say that they like in college, they were shown the images like X, Y, and Z that depicted similar things but it’s like, where are these images for the rest of us to see? Because it really wasn’t easy for me to find on the internet. Google failed me. So, I decided to create what I imagined it would look like, based on the little bit of reading material I was able to find.

Chinelle Rojas 35:30

So, the first image set in The Unto Us a Slave is Born series just depicted a woman in a super dingy place, like, not very clean, sterile type environment and have a baby with a midwife and having a baby outside. So, that was the first one. The second one was called The Sins of Their Fathers, so it depicted a woman breastfeeding a mixed baby, the baby was hers, but also her slave masters, while also tending to a fellow slave who was laboring, and then my latest set is called Labor in Labor. So, it’s actually like a trigger a little bit more of a trigger for people probably because it depicts a slave working in the field, going into labor and realizing that she is miscarrying. So, yeah, each set has like a little write up on it and all that kind of stuff and just kind of let people know where my head was at while shooting those images.

Candice Wu 37:13

Yeah, I mean, it’s so powerful in the way you are going right into what you could dream up. That’s not the right word, because this is definitely not dreaming, but what you could imagine as a possible reality, what Black people faced in the birthing process and not being afraid of what that could look like.

Chinelle Rojas 37:46

Exactly. And what was crazy as this last set, I had been, it had been in my mind since I shot the part two.

Candice Wu 37:57

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 37:57

So, for the last nine months, this last image shot had been in my mind, and I was so glad to finally like, get it out of my head and like, in tangible form for everybody else to see what was in my mind and what I was thinking about.

Candice Wu 38:19

Yeah. Wow, and I don’t know if this has anything to do with your process at all, but what happened to me, in me as you were just saying that was a feeling of the ancestors, and the sense set when there’s been such devastation or pain or even wonderment, any profound experience like we want it to be seen and acknowledged, and I just had this feeling sense of the idea that maybe ancestors are asking for this to be seen.

Chinelle Rojas 39:00

I feel like it, too, I feel like their stories deserve to be told, you know, and it’s something that is not seen or talked about enough. And, you know, I mean, in recent times, it has been talked about a lot. However, like, we have nothing to like, put pictures to words, you know, to describe what we’re thinking, what we’re feeling what our ancestors have had to experience. I feel like that’s super important to kind of put a face to the stories, even if it’s not an actual, you know, slave. It is to pay homage to those who basically had to go through the ultimate trial. So interesting topic.

Candice Wu 40:05

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 40:06

And I’m like, I like to provoke thought, especially with my project, when it comes to those when it comes to myself fortress, all that kind of stuff like I like to provoke thought if possible, and I really hope that that series does that.

Candice Wu 40:28

It definitely provokes thought and me. For me, it was just really thinking about, as I said, ancestors and what they want to be seen, and to be honored, but also what birthing means and how much it’s been silenced. In many spaces, especially in spaces where people have been oppressed or enslaved, and it’s just this missing piece, as you said in your Google search. Now, maybe there’s some stuff out there, but it’s not on Google, and that really says something. And then it asked of me to feel into, “What about my ancestry? What about my experiences with that?” And really just open the door? I didn’t really, it didn’t open up new things at the moment, but just wondering where have been, there been times where women have experienced really hard experience around their birthing or maybe they had to do it in secret, but yeah, I’m curious what other people are thinking.

Chinelle Rojas 41:49

That’s very interesting.

Candice Wu 41:52

Do you want to talk about your ancestry?

Chinelle Rojas 41:56

What is funny is that I am not American, which is probably why I also take offense to when people say African American, like they assume that every black person in America is just African American.

Candice Wu 42:15

Yeah. And you know, I’ve done that, but yeah, appreciate you talking about it, too.

Chinelle Rojas 42:23

Yeah, we’re not, we are all over, you know, we’re from all over.

Candice Wu 42:29

Humm.

Chinelle Rojas 42:30

I am originally from Trinidad. I grew up here in the States, in Tampa, Florida. Thanks to my dad, he joined the army here in the United States. So, I had the privilege of “growing up here,” that’s not to say that my ancestors were not slaves, because all across the Caribbean, that’s where a lot of the slaves were being dropped off. So, I actually have African ancestry as well as Indian ancestry. Indians were brought to my country, Trinidad as indentured servants and Africans were brought as slaves. So, I actually am mixed. Well, I’m a proud Trinidadian who feels like, I can be a voice or those who look like me here in the States.

Candice Wu 43:37

Thank goodness. Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 43:41

Like, I don’t know if that makes me lose some credibility, but it doesn’t matter to me, because I know, I’ve been here, I didn’t just come here. You know what I mean? I’ve been here, I’m almost 30. So, I’ve been here, 26 years of my life.

Candice Wu 44:04

That’s a significant amount of time.

Chinelle Rojas 44:07

I’m practically American.

Candice Wu 44:09

But you know, even just you saying that… it was like, no like, hell no. When you said, does that make me lose credibility? It’s like you are you, but I do understand the reality of how people can perceive that and what that brings and

Chinelle Rojas 44:29

Right.

Candice Wu 44:30

But, hmm.

Chinelle Rojas 44:32

I do like to throw it out there sometimes like: “Fun fact, I’m not from here”.

Candice Wu 44:36

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 44:37

And I am actually glad that I’m not from.

Candice Wu 44:45

Yeah, I think a lot of people might be jealous,

Chinelle Rojas 44:49

Great, I am not an American. So, my kids are but I’m not. But that’s another reason we are… another fun fact: we are actually moving our family back to Trinidad.

Candice Wu 45:05

Oh, my goodness. Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 45:08

Yes.

Candice Wu 45:08

What?

Chinelle Rojas 45:09

At the end of this year.

Candice Wu 45:10

Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 45:12

And a lot of that is so that our children who are half Trinidadian, my husband, he’s Honduran and Black American. So, we’re trying to give our kids and, like an experience of living in another country, and another culture that they are actually associated with, to experience things outside of the US bubble. We were just there for a month, and what was interesting, with my kids they didn’t want to come back home. Like they didn’t want to come back to the States.

Candice Wu 45:49

Wow. That’s a good thing.

Chinelle Rojas 45:51

Interesting for a, right, and they are four, seven and nine and they didn’t want to come back.

Candice Wu 45:58

Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 46:00

But something that we noticed down there and it like, I don’t know, it solidified me wanting to go down and stay down there, even more, was that, while we were visiting, they have a holiday and it’s called emancipation day. That’s something that they don’t have here in the States. Emancipation day is literally a national holiday in Trinidad where they celebrate the freedom of slavery, like from slavery, I mean. So, they have all this African, basically a beautiful African type festival, parades in the streets, people calling on the ancestor. This is like a beautiful and amazing, amazing experience, and I was so glad that I got to experience it down there, and I was like, why do we not have this in the States, you know, and it’s also super different to be in a country where when you look around 98% of the people look like you.

Candice Wu 47:07

Yeah, that makes a huge difference.

Chinelle Rojas 47:11

Yeah, versus the other way around, where that’s not how we feel where we are. So, I don’t know, it’s just a beautiful, beautiful experience, and I’m so glad that we personally have that chance and the opportunity to be able to, you know, allow our children to experience that.

Candice Wu 47:32

That’s amazing. I’m so excited for all of you.

Chinelle Rojas 47:36

Thanks, but I will be back in the states often, so like.

Candice Wu 47:40

Are you coming back to do birthing sessions? Or do you, what’s your plan?

Chinelle Rojas 47:46

My plan is, at least for now to kind of build my business because I have made a name for myself here in the Tampa Bay area. As a birth photographer, I’m actually building a little bit of a team, and document the birth on my behalf here while we are living abroad, edit and do all that other stuff and still be part of the client experience just minus the shooting. I do plan on coming up here almost a yearly, at least, probably for a couple of months and probably while I’m up here, I will take clients and stuff like that, too. So, it’s gonna be great.

Candice Wu 48:31

Yeah, that’s a really great way expand, too.

Chinelle Rojas 48:35

Yes, but in the meantime, I’m actually going to be hosting retreats for birth photographers as well, and I’m bringing people to my home country and allowing them to experience Trinidad and Tobago, and also have a chance to learn from other birth photographers so their birth workers and just kind of build themselves up, learn about self-care and you know, enjoy, like, the Caribbean, for a few days.

Candice Wu 49:06

Yes. So cool. When is that going to be?

Chinelle Rojas 49:10

So, my first one is in May 2020. I’m already planning for May 2021.

Candice Wu 49:16

Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 49:18

So, it’s gonna be amazing. A super intimate experience. Lots of fun, all-inclusive, like, it’s gonna be great. So great. I can’t explain how excited I am. I just want May to be here so I can make this happen.

Candice Wu 49:36

If I add on more things to my career list or interest, and to birth photography, which is really interesting to me, I will come and join you.

Chinelle Rojas 49:52

For sure. It’s called “Birth at the Beach” because I’m quirky and I like names like that so…

Candice Wu 50:01

Perfect.

Chinelle Rojas 50:03

The Birth at the Beach Retreat. So…

Candice Wu 50:06

Great. Yeah, check it out there if you’re listening. And also you have the Melanatedbirth.com. Can you tell us about that?

Chinelle Rojas 50:15

I do. And I’m actually working on phasing out the actual website just because, you know, I feel like I could almost be more beneficial to people on social media, because it’s about the photos, really.

Candice Wu 50:32

Oh, yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 50:33

But the melon at birth, it was a way for people to be able to find other like birth photographers and stuff like that, who can provide the service that they need, then quite take off the way I would have liked. It was kind of like, this kind of stagnant for a while. So, I’m shifting focus, shifting gears and kind of maybe focusing more on the social media aspect of it as that’s where most of the people find out about The Melanated Birth. So, and The Melanated Birth is basically just a place where you can go to so you can find it on Instagram and Facebook, where if you want to see a plethora of images and videos of people of color giving birth, that’s where you want to go, because that’s all we share.

Candice Wu 51:25

Right.

Chinelle Rojas 51:26

Just to kind of, you know, piggyback off of what I said earlier: we are trying to save lives.

Candice Wu 51:34

Yes.

Chinelle Rojas 51:34

The best way to do that is by showing that birth in different settings is possible for everyone.

Candice Wu 51:45

That’s so great. I’m so glad you exist and are doing this. And I…

Chinelle Rojas 51:51

Same to you.

Candice Wu 51:52

Thank you. I just want to say that your photographs just feel so intimate and raw, and tender and powerful at the same time. And you have mentioned capturing images of women and families and color in their goddess and between worlds with their babies. They just love that. So, I wanted to end with that and just hear your thoughts on what it is to be between worlds.

Chinelle Rojas 52:24

Well.

Candice Wu 52:30

It’s a hard one

Chinelle Rojas 52:31

Try to figure out the best way to word that one.

Candice Wu 52:33

Uh-huh.

Chinelle Rojas 52:35

Because like, how do you even describe that?

Candice Wu 52:37

Exactly. I don’t even know.

Chinelle Rojas 52:41

It’s so hard to describe, like…

Candice Wu 52:42

Maybe let’s create pictures.

Chinelle Rojas 52:45

You could just see it, I think, because when you think about it, when a child is being born there between worlds, but what you don’t also think about is while that child is being born, so is the parent.

Candice Wu 53:00

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 53:00

You know.

Candice Wu 53:01

Like the parents are being born.

Chinelle Rojas 53:03

Like, inherit, exactly. Like we forget that notion. Women are pregnant or you know, people, in general, they’re pregnant for nine months-ish give or take, and they’re housing this baby, they’re housing this baby, and then they have this baby and then no longer are they the center of attention.

Candice Wu 53:28

Mm-hmm.

Chinelle Rojas 53:29

You know, like that whole dynamic changes, and it’s a… I don’t know like it’s mind blown. Like…

Candice Wu 53:38

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 53:41

…like how do you really describe like being in between? Like I don’t, it’s hard. It’s hard because I’m even trying to think back because of my own experiences of pushing babies out. And that moment from the last few pushes, like they are a blur. Like, you go from pushing to next, you know, you have this baby in your hand and like everything in between your life, what happened? My husband, actually, he likes to describe witnessing birth as being an out-of-body experience, for him, you know, like, I don’t like it. I don’t like not feeling in control of whatever’s going to happen.

Candice Wu 54:31

It’s such a vulnerable moment, time, period. Just many moments of that sounds like.

Chinelle Rojas 54:39

Exactly. Sorry, I couldn’t answer that way, stronger. I guess it’s so hard that one, that question.

Candice Wu 54:47

No, it’s perfect, because how can you really describe that? And as you said, you just have to look at the image and you feel it, you know.

Chinelle Rojas 54:57

Look at the picture or you just were there. You have to have, the best way for you to understand the feeling is to get a chance to witness it or physically go through it, yourself, and even then, it’s hard to describe.

Candice Wu 55:15

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 55:18

Because there’s such a fine line between birth and death — it’s so crazy. I feel like every time I’m at a birth, I just hear somebody stomping around shoes and shoes that don’t fit them, but every time I’m at of birth, and a baby comes out, I somehow wonder who in that moment has passed away?

Candice Wu 55:52

Oh. Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 55:55

Like at this very same time as this life is coming into the world, somebody is no longer breathing, and then I always think — well wonder — how does that all work? You know, you get all deep and philosophical and stuff but you don’t really have time because you got a job to do, so…

Candice Wu 56:12

It happens in this flash of a moment and then you’re on the next photograph.

Chinelle Rojas 56:17

So basically, basically.

Candice Wu 56:21

Wow, well, I think that really brings it to the forefront like the intensity of the feeling of between worlds is the fine line between life and death, as you said. Thank you so much, Chinelle, is there anything else you want to share today?

Chinelle Rojas 56:41

Ahm, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think we covered a lot.

Candice Wu 56:48

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 56:48

Actually, which is amazing.

Candice Wu 56:50

It is.

Chinelle Rojas 56:52

So many things. I’m doing so many things. There are so many things.

Candice Wu 56:56

Yeah, we didn’t even talk about their video work or anything like that.

Chinelle Rojas 57:01

We did. I do all the things.

Candice Wu 57:03

You do all the things!

Chinelle Rojas 57:03

Oh, my God!

Candice Wu 57:07

What were you about to say? Before I interrupted it.

Chinelle Rojas 57:10

Yeah, I’m just really just, I’m just a go-getter just like” I like to say in my bio, I’m a go-getter. I go get groceries, go get things for my kids, but I’m a creative at heart, so, I’m always like trying to channel that into something.

Candice Wu 57:36

Yeah

Chinelle Rojas 57:37

So, whether that be working on logos for others, documenting births or you know, just helping other people with stuff, just love it.

Candice Wu 57:49

That’s awesome.

Chinelle Rojas 57:50

So glad to have gotten to talk to you and hear what you’re about and stuff like that, too, like this really awesome.

Candice Wu 57:59

Thank you.

Chinelle Rojas 58:00

I think it’s so interesting, the whole dynamic of ancestral trauma, like any think about that stuff, too, and I’ve heard this a few times, too, how that explains a lot of why the black community is perceived the way that they are, and it’s has a lot to do with the trauma that wasn’t lifted on the community during the slavery era. That’s not something that just disappears.

Candice Wu 58:18

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 58:38

That’s not just something that you could just forget and move on from when it’s kind of ingrained in your DNA.

Candice Wu 58:48

Right, and it’s not quite in enough spaces or in the right spaces, maybe, hasn’t gotten it’s due acknowledgment, you know, in a personal way, as well as a collective way and so, it just begs to be seen through the next person and generation through us.

Chinelle Rojas 59:15

Yeah, exactly. It’s our job to give them their stories, voices.

Candice Wu 59:22

Yeah. Thank you so much to know. Um, can you just say for everyone listening where to find you besides The Melanated Birth on Instagram, believe you’re at Tampa Birth Photographer, is that right?

Chinelle Rojas 59:37

I am, I’m @theblk.creative, that’s my photography business. I’m also @HelloChinelle, that’s my personal, you’ll see more pictures of me and my kids, there. Occasionally, you might see my husband. And what else do I have? I have so many things. Oh, my gosh. I wouldn’t even list them all…

Candice Wu 1:00:13

Well, we’ll put it all on the website if you want. You covered a lot of bases, you know?

Chinelle Rojas 1:00:19

Yes.

Candice Wu 1:00:20

Yeah.

Candice Wu 1:00:22

But yeah, if you want, we’ll put them all at the link. That’ll be at CandiceWu.com/Chinelle, and that’s your name, and so, if you’re out there and listening, you can just tune into the, jump onto the website and click into all of the spaces you’re at. Thank you so much. This was so fun.

Chinelle Rojas 1:00:43

Same. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Candice Wu 1:00:47

You’re so welcome.

Candice Wu 1:00:51

Thank you so much for joining us today and thank you so much Chinelle. It was lovely to experience you and the behind the scenes of you talking about what it is that goes into your photography work, and how you think about it. It’s really inspiring to have people like Chinelle who are doing something with what they believe and letting that be congruent in their profession, in their life, in all the ways. It really brings us the question of congruency in our lives. Are the things that we’re doing in our profession, in our spaces, in who we interact with, are they can grow and with what it is that we believe? And what we know is really important in this life.

Candice Wu 1:01:48

So, check out her work at all of the social media links that Chinelle has offered. They’re all linked in the show notes, and thank you so much for now for joining us. Before you go, I’d like to invite you to join the Embody Community through the newsletter that I put out every two to three weeks that offers self-love notes, podcast updates, sometimes some book giveaways of guests to the podcast as well as workshops, retreats and immersions, and my travel and inside scoop of my world. You can find that at CandiceWu.com/embody.

Candice Wu 1:02:28

See you all next time on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

Is your money smiling? This episode is with special guest, Ken Honda, the author of Happy Money: The Japanese Art of Making Peace with your Money. Arigato In, Arigato Out, is Ken’s mantra with money and he promises that it’s not going to cost you anything.

Candice Wu 0:19

Ken is considered the Marie Kondo of money and he talks in this podcast about money being a neutral energy and the amount of emotional garbage that we put into our relationship with money, how we’re born for expressing who we are, and being our authentic selves, and also how we can compel a planetary shift with a happy relationship to money.

Candice Wu 0:44

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love. My name is Candice Wu and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:18

This episode is sponsored by your support. Recently, contributions to the podcast went to supporting the transcriptions of all the podcasts, and a database that’s searchable of all the healing experientials and meditations as well as podcasts.

Candice Wu 1:35

All the transcriptions for each episode are digestible in this written form for you to search or to look into if that’s an easier way for you to connect with the content, and you can find all that at each individual podcast link at CandiceWu.com/podcast. And the link for all the healing meditations that I offer, as well as my guests offer, all the experientials, that’s all searchable on the Embody Podcast database by keyword topics and by certain filters at CandiceWu.com/meditation. And just a little disclaimer that the transcripts are still in process, they’re just a small handful out of like 87 or so podcasts that are out there, I can’t even believe it, there’s so many. But the ones that are not there yet, look for them, because they will be coming out soon and the healing experientials and meditations will also be out soon.

Candice Wu 2:36

So I want to just put a shout out to those of you who have supported to the podcast, to the behind the scenes efforts of the podcast and appreciate how much that means to me and to the support of the podcast. If you’ve been thinking about supporting and haven’t yet, or if you’ve felt like you’ve wanted a way to give back to the community in some way that really means something or something on the podcasts has really touched your heart or if you really like the guest on the show, I would just so appreciate your support in donating to the podcast. You can check all that out as well as the offerings that are in return for support at CandiceWu.com/support.

Candice Wu 3:26

Welcome back to the podcast it’s great to have you here today. It’s wonderful to have Ken Honda on the podcast. He’s the author of Happy Money: The Japanese Art of Making Peace with your Money. He’s the best selling author of self-development books and has sold more than 7 million copies worldwide. While his financial expertise comes from owning and managing several businesses, his writings bridge the topics of finance and self-help focusing on creating and generating personal wealth and happiness through deeper self-honesty.

Candice Wu 4:00

I love talking to Ken about this topic, especially because I have been brainstorming all the different ways that I’ve worked with myself and others around money and have felt compelled to write a book about healing money issues at the root, as well as the story of money through the ancestry and connecting in the relationship with money in a way that brings us more abundance, but as part of a fuller abundance that we can touch into in our lives. And this conversation with Ken just came at such a perfect time. You’ll even hear me talk about my own book in the beginning when I really meant to be talking about his. I enjoyed talking with him so much and I hope you enjoy listening.

Candice Wu 4:50

Also, there’s a little treat at the very end, if you listen all the way through, you’ll tune into the audience gift from Ken and myself and it’s a very special one. It’s something we haven’t done before on the podcast and it is going to be in place of any experiential or meditation. But a special treat for one really lucky listener. Let’s jump in.

Candice Wu 5:19

This is a wonderful day to talk about money and a lot of people don’t like talking about money, which may be part of our conversation today Ken, but I think it’s delightful and I’m even more delighted to have you here today on the show. Welcome, Ken.

Ken Honda 5:37

Thank you. I’m so honored to be here.

Candice Wu 5:41

It’s just a pleasure. I read your book, Happy Money: The Japanese Art of Making Peace with your Money. And you’ve been known as Zen millionaire. Tell me about how you got here.

Ken Honda 5:56

So it’s going to be a long story, to make it short, my father was an accountant, very successful. So he taught me everything about money when I was small. So after I graduated from college, I studied my own company, consulting and accounting firm and I retired when I was 29. And for my baby girl, and during the full year of semi-retirement for my baby girl, I got this inspiration to write about happiness and money. And, I started writing a small booklet and that small booklet turned into a book, and since then I’ve been writing one book every few months for the past 18 years.

Candice Wu 6:43

Wow. And you said you had 140 books, is that right?

Ken Honda 6:46

Yes.

Candice Wu 6:49

That’s a big number. Wow.

Candice Wu 6:53

When you were young, I know in the story in your book “Happy Money”, you talked about being eight years old and learning from your father. Can you say more about what you witnessed and how that began your journey of the way that you see money?

Ken Honda 7:11

Yes. So, I realized when I was very little, there are two kinds of people, business people, happy people, and unhappy people. And I witnessed them going through changes of life and the one with happy money tend to do well and the other ones who are struggling, they’re struggling financially because they have unhappy money. And I realized that there are two kinds of money, happy money and unhappy money in business as well.

Candice Wu 7:48

Yeah, can you say more about what happy money and unhappy money looks like?

Ken Honda 7:53

Yes, happy money is money that makes you smile when you receive it, and gives you joy when you spend it, whereas unhappy money makes you frustrated when you receive it and gives you anger, sadness, depression when you spend it, and obviously, unfortunately, 95% of our money is unhappy money.

Candice Wu 8:19

Yeah, I remember, maybe it was like 15 years ago, when I was examining my relationship to money, I read something, somewhere, I can’t remember where now, but it said, when you spend even $1 when you look at the gas prices or something, is there just a pain in you to even spend that dollar? What does it do to you? Or what do you feel when you’re spending that dollar? And I remember it feeling like it was taking away my life force. It was awful, and a lot of anxiety and like I was losing something. And that was the beginning of my shift in my relationship with money. And you spoke to in the book, everyone has a unique dilemma with money and their relationship with money. And how has yours been? What have you noticed in your life?

Ken Honda 9:17

So, there is one interesting thing that happened when I was in elementary grade school. One time, when I came back from school, my father who was a very strong, Samurai type of guy, he was crying like a baby and I’ve never seen adult men cry up to that age. And I thought, my father is not capable of crying, because I’ve never seen him cry in my entire life. And my mother took me aside and she told me that my father’s best friend and his client committed suicide. And not only did he commit suicide; but before he committed suicide, he killed the entire family and then committed suicide. It’s called family suicide, to save the family, from the disgrace of bankruptcy.

Ken Honda 10:13

So, that incident really changed everything, in my life and in my father’s life and my entire family’s life. And he was a very generous, fun loving person. But after that, he feels so guilty for not lending money. He was going to lend money but at that time, if he loaned some money, it would go directly to the loan sharks. So he waited until his friend filed bankruptcy, and then he can give the money to the family. So they can spend a few months to live on. So, he felt partly responsible for the death of the family that made him very depressed and he slipped into alcoholism, and he lost his smile, and all of our family members lost smile, too.

Ken Honda 11:09

So after that, he became very abusive and at that time, I sort of blamed the money for the cause of all the misery. So my beginning was not a happy journey about money. But at the same time, I really made up my mind that when I grow up, I will make sure that my family will have enough money. So they don’t have to go through this.

Candice Wu 11:39

That sounds like such a devastating experience.

Ken Honda 11:42

Right. Yes.

Candice Wu 11:44

For so many.

Ken Honda 11:45

Yeah, when I think back, you know, my father was so confused about the whole thing and I was confused, too. And I think everybody’s so confused. And now we’re in the 21st century, but still, a lot of us are still confused about money. And a lot of fights, a lot of crimes and disputes are caused by money-related stress, I wouldn’t say it’s money. It’s money-related stress. Money is neutral energy. We put so many garbages on to money. So we think it’s money’s fault, but it’s our fault, humans.

Candice Wu 12:29

Yeah, it sounds easier to blame money than to look at what’s going on in our relationship with it or —

Ken Honda 12:35

Right.

Candice Wu 12:36

What do we need to do?

Ken Honda 12:37

Right.

Candice Wu 12:37

And this is what you’ve set your work to.

Ken Honda 12:39

Yes. So since I was 10, 11, I started reading about money and I learned more about business. And so early on, I started my own business, and become financially independent, very young.

Candice Wu 12:55

So there’s this quote that you have in your book, first, the question is, do you use money or does money use you? And it felt so poignant to look at it that way and you began that section of your book with being at the kitchen table with your father and he said, money has two facets like a coin, God and the devil. And that sounds very poignant to the unfolding of your entire viewpoint towards money. And I have seen that as well. And I wonder if you could speak more to that, and your thoughts about it.

Ken Honda 13:39

You know, money could be so different, depending on who you’re talking to. If people with happy money, they say money is great, money helps you, money gives you great opportunities, money takes away all the stress, which is true. And also, the other one with unhappy money, says money is the cause of all frustration, money creates divorces, money creates fights. That’s also the other facet of money. So money can be so many things to so many people and you can choose it.

Candice Wu 14:17

Yeah, there’s something about giving ourselves permission to enjoy money, which you do speak about in your book as well, to receive it, to be open to receiving money or gifts and having joy about it, like, being excited like a child would. I love it when you tie in how children can experience it this way. Yeah, can you speak more to that? That permission that we can give ourselves.

Ken Honda 14:44

You know, money is interesting. When you are willing to receive it, it’s going to come. But when you say no, I’m not worth it. I don’t deserve it, so the money will kind of passes through. So you have to be open to the flow, money is a flow. So, if it flows through you, you’ll be abundant. If money flows in front of you, you have no abundance. So if you are in the flow of money, receive money and then pass it on, that’s abundance. But a lot of us feel so unworthy about receiving money from our clients, from our companies we’re working for and we are afraid to ask for a raise. We are so afraid to receive more. And also we feel frustrated because we have to give away money for taxes and other things that we feel like, ooh, I don’t want to pay but that really creates clogs in your life that stop the flow of money.

Candice Wu 15:52

Yeah, and it feels so bad.

Ken Honda 15:55

Yes.

Candice Wu 15:55

You know, it feels so bad to say, “Oh, I have to pay x y & z.”

Ken Honda 15:59

Yes.

Candice Wu 16:00

And when I really was in that place of feeling bad about money going out from me, paying things, it was so hard to even see that there was another way to be with money.

Ken Honda 16:13

Yes. So think of food, for example, you know, a healthy person eats a lot and then releases a lot. The unhealthy person eats a lot, but not releasing a lot. You know?

Candice Wu 16:30

It gets stuck.

Ken Honda 16:30

Yeah.

Candice Wu 16:31

Exactly.

Ken Honda 16:31

I don’t want to let go.

Candice Wu 16:32

Undigested.

Ken Honda 16:33

Yeah. So it’s not healthy at all when you think of food. But when you think of money, like a lot of people want to stay constipated? Is that the word?

Candice Wu 16:43

Oh, constipated.

Ken Honda 16:45

Constipated? Yes, that’s a hard one.

Candice Wu 16:46

Yeah, it is.

Ken Honda 16:49

They love to be in that situation.

Candice Wu 16:53

To be constipated. They love to stay there.

Ken Honda 16:55

Yes. Even though it’s not quite healthy.

Candice Wu 16:59

Yeah, I had too, in my life, I felt the impact of a lot of my ancestry. And the way that they dealt with money in the story of money. And I love how you asked the question, I believe you said: “If money were a person, what would this person be like? Or who would that be?” And when I was looking at the story of money in my family ancestry, I felt like money was something that divided people, it hurt people and it was something that people hoard and try to stay constipated with, and collect and collect, but it doesn’t really go anywhere and it doesn’t really bring joy.

Ken Honda 17:45

Yeah.

Candice Wu 17:46

It just collects and divides.

Ken Honda 17:47

Yes. So it’s like, when you look at it like a river, if the river flows beautifully and naturally, organically, you know, though, there will be a lot of life. But if you stop the river, you know, it’s going to create a lot of chaos, there will be a flood, and also some areas will be dry and the whole, chaotic situations will occur. So when you just start hoarding money, it’s not good for you and also for the environment too, so instead of hanging on to your money, you have to let it flow, and that will be the ways to keep healthy financially and also emotionally too.

Candice Wu 18:35

Beautiful, yeah, that flow. And can you speak more to how you teach people to get in that flow? Let’s say they do feel that constipation or they —

Ken Honda 18:48

Yeah.

Candice Wu 18:49

Just feel so victim to money, like, no, what if — I’m sure in your many walks of life, and the speaking that you’ve done connecting with so many people in Japan and around the world. What, you know, have you had that question where people say, but really, like, this isn’t working for me?

Ken Honda 19:11

Yes, it’s so true.

Ken Honda 19:13

You know, I’ve, I’ve been fortunate to have many great mentors and one of them is Wahei Takeda who is called Warren Buffett of Japan. And he is one of the wealthiest people in Japan and I had this opportunity to ask him about money, and asking, what is his secret to money? And he said, only one thing: “Thank your money. Arigato your money.” What?

He said: “Arigato in. Arigato out. That means when the money comes in, say thank you to the money, when the money leaves you, also, thank your money. And by doing that, you start this cycle of appreciation in your life, and why I said appreciating about money and worrying about money, you cannot do it at the same time. So if you could focus on appreciation of the money, you will forget about worrying.”

So that’s the beauty of his teaching. So once you start appreciating the money coming in, instead of being frustrated with how little you get, you know, you begin to appreciate your clients, your boss, and all the environment and they react in a positive way.

Ken Honda 20:34

One of my seminar participants was a low paying secretary and she didn’t have a college degree so she didn’t get a high salary. But she was complaining about it, the whole thing and one day, she realized this secret of appreciating, so she started appreciating her boss for giving her the job and she thanked him, and she thanked him in so many other ways. So she became like a different person. A few weeks later, she got to be great. So, you know, without saying much, she showed her appreciation with her attitude and then her boss paid her back. So that’s the beauty of appreciation, what you appreciate, appreciates, if you appreciate money —

Candice Wu 21:26

That is beautiful.

Ken Honda 21:27

The money will also — yeah — be nice to you. So, and it’s not a new age spiritual thing. It’s this psychological impact that people have around appreciation and it works on wonders in family issues, too. If you start appreciating your partners, your kids, your parents, they appreciate you back.

Candice Wu 21:50

Absolutely. And it — as you’re saying, it’s not this new age thing, it’s so tangible, you can feel the visceral feeling of someone appreciating you or when someone appreciates something, there’s a feeling around that. And there’s also so much to appreciate, even if it’s a little money you receive.

Ken Honda 22:12

Yeah, and you know, I’ve been a practical business person all my life. So when I was doing accounting, before my retirement, I divided my clients into two groups. One is a regular group and also the other one is the one with small gifts. Whenever I got to see them, I brought small gifts, like chocolate, a book, or CD or herb tea, and something not too big, and to appreciate their businesses and appreciate about relationships. And six months later, look at what happened from the group, regular group, I didn’t get so many referrals. But the second group with small gifts, I got overwhelmed by the responses that they wanted to refer me to their friends. So with the small gifts, they want to do something for me in return. And that’s the only difference and also the feeling of appreciation, along with the small gifts. And if you feel appreciated by somebody, you appreciate them. So that way, business wise, it really works.

Candice Wu 23:22

That makes sense.

Candice Wu 23:24

The discernment that I feel around what you’re saying is that it really needs to come with appreciation, like a true feeling of that versus just being, I don’t know, a coupon.

Ken Honda 23:33

Yeah.

Candice Wu 23:35

It feels flat, like, Oh, I’m just going to, or if you gave the small gifts just without much meaning. But the meaning you’re imbibing in it is that appreciation and care.

Ken Honda 23:47

Yes, exactly.

Candice Wu 23:49

Yeah. So how do we route through our emotional garbage related to money?

Ken Honda 23:55

You need, like a whole day? But you know —

Candice Wu 24:00

Yeah. Many people need lifetimes, right?

Candice Wu 24:05

Yeah. And you spoke to how important it is to be doing what you love and to be in the appreciation of your gifts, and what you can offer the world and loving that as a way to let the flow in.

Ken Honda 24:05

Yes. Because we’ve accumulated so much garbage around money. You know, first of all, we are worrying about money a lot and we feel frustrated with money. We feel angry, we feel depressed, we feel anxiety around money. And when — I give a lot of counseling, I used to give a lot of counseling to couples, business owners, and housewives so I know how it works. You know, we are addicted to money worries. We are literally addicted because we are so — we stay so paralyzed because we are afraid of money. Because of money fear, we don’t take risks and start doing what we love. We get stuck in these jobs that we don’t like and get stuck in the marriages that we think it’s already over a few years ago. And because of money limitation, we are so afraid to start new ventures in life.

Ken Honda 25:27

Yes.

Candice Wu 25:27

So if we can’t take a risk to do that, it would be very hard to get in the flow.

Ken Honda 25:32

Right. I’ve written more than 20 books on how to find your gifts and how to follow your heart, and it’s very important. But going back a little bit about money emotions, unless you kind of heal these emotions around money, you are so paralyzed. So, you know, we are so stuck. So we know somewhere deep inside, we want to do what we’d love. But we feel like we don’t deserve that good life or we don’t have enough resources financially, mentally, whatever the reasons, we cannot afford to do whatever we love. So unless we heal these money issues and transform our relationship around money, we cannot really start living.

Candice Wu 26:25

Yeah, and in that way, we can’t really afford not to do what we love in life, because we’re really not living.

Ken Honda 26:33

Yes. But unfortunately, not only in Japan, in North America, Europe, China, Africa, India, everywhere -countries everywhere, we’re stuck. Because we are so confused about money. And when you take a look at the issues really closely, we’re not afraid of money, we are afraid of a bad future, to be precise, we are afraid of the future without any money, we are afraid of running out of money in the future. And then no money is no good. You know, it’s scary. Because everything is tied up, we cannot pay for the rent, electricity, so we’ll be homeless, we cannot eat, you know, all these survival issues will come up. But when you take a look at it, it’s nothing to do with money, because I’ve interviewed millionaires intensively and I’ve found at least three or four times before they became a millionaire, they experience a situation without any money. But that didn’t kill them. What kills people is the fear of the situation with no money.

Candice Wu 27:52

That makes complete sense and it seems like in my experience, whether that’s your personal experience, that something has happened, and it was scary or maybe terrifying, that instead of recognizing it’s the fear of that, versus that we often just say, Oh, it was money, and then we kind of like, drop the issue or something, you know, we leave it there; with blaming money. And I found in my work with people in their ancestry, and in my own ancestry that a lot of times, it’s someone in the past that experienced something that did happen, perhaps around money, or perhaps around loved ones, where the money is at, is losing a loved one and the fear and the pain around that was so great it was stuck there without looking at it and healing it all the way through and feeling it, and so it carried on for generations, and it can get placed to money.

Ken Honda 28:56

Yes, that’s your expertise and I agree with you a hundred percent. It’s kind of hard to believe psychologically and scientifically, because the grand grandparents that you don’t even know the names and the faces, they’re just influencing you. It’s almost like the experiences you had last year. Yeah, so I do a lot of healing around money issues, too. So I’m sure you’ll find my work very interesting because what you do must be very similar to what I do. You know, it’s developed in very different ways. But the core issues are the same.

Candice Wu 29:38

Absolutely. I feel that when I read your book and does it come up in your work with people? The ancestry and people that lived before them?

Ken Honda 29:51

Yes. Our culture is so oriented with our ancestry. So we have a little altar, usually every Japanese house as a small altar and then we have these pictures of our grandparents, grand grandparents and then we worship a few times a year, and about our ancestries. So we really respect our heritage and I think that’s something Western people don’t seem to have, as much as we do. So as much as we show respect to our ancestry, a lot of us are restricted from our ancestry. For example, one of my friends feels so unworthy and also so restrictive when it comes to changing jobs because he is a fifth-generation of photographers. And then if he is doing photography, actually, he wants to do more music, but he feels like all his ancestors will be upset if he changed his career to music. So that’s probably what North American people or European people don’t have.

Candice Wu 31:10

And yet that experience of being restricted or perhaps being resourced or strengthened by ancestry still exists, even if the sense of the everyday practice of ritual isn’t there?

Ken Honda 31:27

That’s true. So true.

Candice Wu 31:28

Yeah, still living there under these things.

Ken Honda 31:32

Yes.

Candice Wu 31:33

As I see exactly what you’re saying, the sense of this is how I belong to my family if I’m a photographer, too.

Ken Honda 31:41

Yeah, so I do a lot of family shame cleansing too, you know, because we have so many shames passed on from our grand grandparents, like 150 years ago, you know, and then they feel like that they shouldn’t be so flashy and they shouldn’t spend so much money, because we are the farmers. So you know, the time — when their ancestors are farmers are like, more than a hundred years ago, but their grand grandparents used to say, we are farmers, so we don’t, you know, wear flashy clothes. And that passed on to grandparents and parents, and now you’re living in the 21st century, but still, we are living in, you know, in the 1800s almost.

Candice Wu 32:35

Absolutely. I see that as well. So how do you work with the shame cleansing? What do you do?

Ken Honda 32:41

Yeah. So, you know, I always ask my clients to gather all the ancestors and relatives. And some of them, they have the pictures, some of them, they just asked them to just, you know, come to support me. So instead of being the object of the curse, from your ancestry, you just feel the support and respect and care from your parents, grandparents, grand grandparents. So once you feel that you are bound with this shame generation generationally. So all, like, 20 of you can come together, for the first time in history of your family. You know, it’s kind of neat, because they don’t live in the same age. But you can do that in a spiritual way. And then you get them to talk about the shame that your parents had, and you can imagine your grandparents had, and then the rest is almost like in your imagination. And after that, you put camp fire in the center of the circle, and then put all the shame and let it burn. And with the blessings of all your ancestry, and after doing a little meditation of some kind, you know, you feel so much lighter, and amazingly, their financial situation changes in a few weeks. So I don’t know how it works. Some people think I’m a spiritual healer of some sort. But I think it’s just your inner psyche that once you’re free of burden of shame and guilt, I think the money flow can be more smooth.

Candice Wu 34:37

That’s beautiful.

Ken Honda 34:38

I’m sure Candice, you’re the expert. So you know, what I’m talking about. Right?

Candice Wu 34:44

I do, and it’s beautiful, what you’re describing, it’s — I just find it really fascinating too, that it’s very much in line with some of the practices that I’m working with. And I love how it sounds like and you can let me know, it sounds like this is coming very much from the tradition of Japanese culture of ancestry and your creativity of how you can work with your imagination and invite, as well as what is the felt sense or what’s real about inviting your ancestors in.

Candice Wu 35:19

Yes, I find that it can be — it can feel spiritual, who’s to say it’s not, but also it does live in the psyche. There are so many of these beliefs and feelings and when we put them into the light and in your experience that you’re offering, put them in the camp fire and let them burn with blessing. That’s really transforming, something on the inside, for us.

Ken Honda 35:46

Yes.

Candice Wu 35:47

Which gives way to the outside.

Ken Honda 35:49

Yeah. So as you can see —

Candice Wu 35:52

Beautiful.

Ken Honda 35:52

Thank you. As you can see, I’m not just doing this for Japanese families, I’m doing it globally, because look at what happened since the 1930s or even before then, since capitalism started, look at how much shame, guilt, embarrassment, greed, we’ve accumulated energetically on this planet, that’s what’s messing up the environment. So if we can somehow coordinate globally, mentally, spiritually, look at all the issues, and then heal this money wounds, because super-wealthy people feel guilt and upper-middle-class people feel upset and because they’re not treated equally, and the middle class and lower-middle-class people feel frustrated, because somebody is taking advantage, you know, of it. And then financially challenged people feel shame around money. So if all of us get together, and then heal these money wounds and emotions around money, globally, I think there will be a planetary shift. So that’s why I wrote this book, Happy Money.

Candice Wu 37:06

I love that. I resonate with that a lot, that if we are able to shift the energy within us and in our relationship with money and with interaction with other people with money, that just trickles out to everything. And the way, you know, I think, tell me what you’re thinking here. But when you say that this is a global wound and it’s hurting the planet, I think about how, at times there’s greed or fear, fueling how people want to make money and then they may do things that would hurt the planet, or may not consider those facets because they feel like they’re just in survival mode. And there may be many other reasons but feels like it influences our decisions on what we buy, what we offer to sell, and how we live, what would you say?

Ken Honda 38:17

You know, I do a lot of money counseling to different generations, what I found is like, millenniums and younger people, they have a totally different attitude about money. So people in the 30s, 40s, 50s, they love shopping, but the younger people, they love to shop less, and then they want to shop, more fairly traded stuff instead of buying five different jackets and shirts. They are satisfied with a one fairly traded the shirt, and they feel pride in it, and so instead of having more and more, new generations, they’re feeling like satisfaction and fairness, and less, which is so beautiful, because younger people are more advanced in the history of humankind. So they know, the way we’ve been living doesn’t work, and it doesn’t support the planet. So I think there will be a lot less and less consumption of cheap stuff. Instead, I think more about fairly traded stuff will be out there in the market. So there will be less exploitation for young laborers and low paying jobs in developing countries. So I think, as a whole, we’re evolving in a beautiful way.

Ken Honda 40:01

When you take a look —

Candice Wu 40:02

Beautiful.

Ken Honda 40:02

— planetary shift, our place is much better than 200 years ago, 100 years ago, or 70 years ago after the war. You know, there are wars and the people who are in the war zone, it’s estimated about 3 to 5 million people. So in other words, you know, 6 billion and 997 million people are not in war. So globally, we’re shifting beautifully. But you know, not there yet. But I think we’re getting there. So, but we need to have this planetary shift and it has to come from the individual, and it has to come from within. And I think the key is appreciation about who you are and if you can appreciate who you are, you don’t need more stuff. That means less shopping, less money spending, more money in your pocket. So you feel less stress about money and then more satisfaction in life. So more appreciation is really the start of the whole thing.

Candice Wu 41:17

Yeah, that’s beautiful and I think that really hits the core.

Ken Honda 41:22

Yeah, a lot of us are creating money issues because we spend simply too much. The reason is that we feel so stressed, so we shop. I heard retail therapy is a word in English and I thought it’s pretty funny. You know, when I first heard about the retail therapy, I thought the shop attendants will give you therapy and so I thought it’s a service or something, you know, extra service. So I find it’s very funny, very American way of creating words.

Candice Wu 42:05

That’s hilarious.

Ken Honda 42:06

Yeah.

Candice Wu 42:08

Yeah, I think it’s our way of naming something without really actually going deeper in a way. You know, it’s funny, retail therapy, it’s saying exactly what it is. We want to feel better.

Ken Honda 42:23

Yeah, I thought there’s a there’s like, a free, you know, therapist in a shopping mall or something. So like, you just confess, I shop too much.

Ken Honda 42:36

Yeah.

Candice Wu 42:37

You bring your shopping confessions in.

Ken Honda 42:39

Yeah, if you bring a receipt that you bought something at the shopping mall, you can get a free session or something. That’s like a massage thing. If you’re a loyal customer, you get free therapy. Oh, you shop too much. Come back next week.

Candice Wu 42:56

Oh, let’s feed the addiction.

Ken Honda 43:01

Yeah, but you know, it’s funny, but it’s everywhere, in China and Japan. You know, one of the fun comments, one of the fun taglines in one of the most popular shopping centers in Japan. You know, it’s supposed to be a joke. Japanese people make jokes, too. And then, at the entrance of the shopping mall, it says, “Buy now, regret later at home.”

Candice Wu 43:31

That’s funny.

Ken Honda 43:32

Straight, but that’s what they say, and people smile —

Candice Wu 43:36

Yeah.

Ken Honda 43:36

And they give them permission to shop more.

Candice Wu 43:40

Yeah. If there’s a little humor about it and a good feeling about it, then —

Ken Honda 43:44

Yeah. Shop now regret later when you go home.

Candice Wu 43:49

Oh, funny.

Ken Honda 43:50

Yeah. So they don’t hide their marketing strategy.

Candice Wu 43:55

Right. We’re just being transparent with you.

Ken Honda 43:58

Yeah. So I think it’s everywhere. But once you satisfy with what you have, you don’t have this drive to buy more, you know, do more. So you’d be more content with who you are. That’s my Zen philosophy around money. So it doesn’t, you know, require a lot of money. You don’t have to be a millionaire, a billionaire, in order to be in peace with money.

Candice Wu 44:26

Yeah, for a long time, I felt like I needed to have enough and then it was a question, well, what is enough? And what does that even mean? And where’s that coming from? A lot of it was feeling enough in myself, that I’m enough but it also related to a whole shift in the paradigm of money from the accumulation and reaching some sort of bar, even though I appreciate that, if that’s happening. That feeling like, I’ll always have what I need when I need it and that I have this relationship with money that feels more joyful.

Candice Wu 45:11

Someone told me, one of my business consultants early on, told me, her view of money was the exchange of joy from one person with a calling to another.

Ken Honda 45:22

That’s beautiful.

Candice Wu 45:23

Yeah. And when she said that, it really clicked something in me that that’s how I want it to be and that’s how I wanted it to feel on both ways. You know, if I offer a service, and someone’s paying for it, my wishes that they feel they’re excited to give money in exchange for the service or for the gift of the work together and vice versa. If I’m working with someone, I’m so happy to give them what they feel they want for it. And it’s exciting when it feels good for both people.

Ken Honda 45:56

Yes.

Candice Wu 45:57

And so just looking at that whole paradigm of accumulation and thinking we need to be in a certain place but then if you really look at your life, like what do you really want and need? And how are you feeling? How are you feeling?

Ken Honda 46:18

Yeah.

Candice Wu 46:18

I think is a lot of what you’re saying.

Ken Honda 46:22

Yeah. So, thank you. You said it so beautifully in other words.

Ken Honda 46:27

So, you know, one of my greatest joy is to find people with happy money everywhere. So without knowing what happy money is, they are in the flow of happy money. So that’s their way of appreciating their life, expressing their joy, about their life and we need more people like that on this planet. And, because there are many different ways of living on this planet right now, some depressing, some enlightening, some freeing, but when it comes down to living a happy life, there are only two ways, happy life or unhappy life. So I hope everybody feels content with who they are, who he is, or who she is, and start living his or her true life, authentic life. Because that is, I believe that’s why we’re born for, you know, express our gifts and start appreciating what we have and sharing with other people.

Candice Wu 47:37

I couldn’t agree with you more.

Ken Honda 47:39

Thank you.

Candice Wu 47:40

Thank you. Yeah. And so in this place of peace with your life, and it sounds like harmony with who you are and offering to be in your gifts, do you encounter any challenges?

Ken Honda 47:56

Yes. Because emotions hit you hard every day. You know, you feel anxiety and shame, disappointments, and a lot is going to attack you almost, you know. So you have to have this same mentality. Not too much excitement, not too many disappointments, because your life is in the middle. And, for example, when you start earning money, just be practical. For example, if you have more than fifty friends who can let you stay for a week, for free, I’m sure you have at least five or ten friends. And, if you have that many friends, you know, after 52 weeks, which is a year, you can come back to friend number one and say it’s been a while, how are you doing? And then you can start over the next year. So by doing that, you know, you don’t need any money to keep living. So once you realize that you need friends to depend on, not money, seek security in people, not in money, you’ll realize that you have more than enough.

Candice Wu 49:19

Yeah, it’s such a nice way to look at it and also to appreciate the relationships in your life that are part of the resource.

Candice Wu 49:29

Yes, and trust life. Because your friends and your family members and the people who love you will not let you down if you fall, they will catch you, but you have to let them know that you need help. That’s another issue. We are so good at giving but so bad at receiving. So, you know, that’s —

Candice Wu 49:52

It’s like if we can’t receive then —

Ken Honda 49:54

Yeah.

Candice Wu 49:55

Yeah.

Ken Honda 49:56

A lot of, you know, yeah, I give a lot of counseling to single mothers too. But the problem is, they have a hard time asking for help. But once they ask for help, their neighbors, their friends, and family member has, you know, they’re going to, they’re ready to jump on and help you and you’ll be overwhelmed by the support you get but, you know, if you just don’t ask, people don’t know that you’re in trouble or you need help.

Candice Wu 50:26

Yeah, and the way you’re speaking about this, it feels like looking at where we’re blocked in our own energy of trust and abundance. Where’s our psyche or soul asking us to grow?

Ken Honda 50:43

Yes.

Candice Wu 50:44

In the case of a single mother having a hard time asking for help, because that’s a challenge. It may be blocking everything, and that we’re meant to have all the skills and tools that we can in life. And I think that’s where we are flowing the best.

Ken Honda 51:02

Yes. So you have to be vulnerable, to be able to ask for support, because people love to give you one. And you know, we’re good at giving. So remember, if you’re bad at receiving, but there are more people who are good at giving, and you can complete the cycle of giving and receiving by being a receiver. We need people to receive.

Candice Wu 51:31

Absolutely. We need people to receive. I like how you’re putting that.

Ken Honda 51:37

Yeah, thank you. I’m so glad you like what I’m saying because whatever I say may sound Japanese or sometimes weird or strange. But what I’m, whatever I’m saying, is has been proven, with great results over the past two decades. So I think it’s going to work in North America, or in any other culture. Because once we start trusting life, start receiving, and asking for support, you know, you uplift yourself spiritually, emotionally, and financially too. You’d be amazed at how many people would jump on you. They’re going to eat you up, and they’re going to support you.

Ken Honda 52:21

Yeah, and you’ll be overwhelmed by the love.

Candice Wu 52:25

Yeah, you know, I have a very concrete example of that. I was in Austin, Texas for a training and I had gotten an Airbnb, and slept in the first night and the second night, something happened at three in the morning. I don’t think I was in danger, but there was a lot of noise. It was a shared apartment and I just felt like, Oh, I cannot be here and really rest well for my training that I really wanted to partake in. And so I gathered all my things, and that morning, I decided to leave that Airbnb and not come back. I didn’t have a car or anything. So I’m walking with all my stuff, you know, walking like a mile over to the place. And someone said, What’s going on? You have all your stuff. Are you leaving? And I said, no, actually, and I told them the truth, you know, I’m really struggling with where I’m staying. So I thought I would just bring all my stuff and figure it out. But I am looking for a place to stay. And at least seven people offered their home.

Ken Honda 53:36

Beautiful.

Candice Wu 53:36

In a matter of a few hours.

Ken Honda 53:40

Because you are so lovable.

Candice Wu 53:44

Thank you. It was so loving and I felt so welcomed and those relationships that I’m building there, I love them. And there’s so much joy around that. And this isn’t specifically about money, even though I might have had to spend some money to go to a place and now I didn’t need to. But I think that just really is a nice example of what you’re saying.

Ken Honda 54:10

Yes, exactly.

Candice Wu 54:11

About reaching out and people wanting to help.

Ken Honda 54:14

Yes. So thank you for sharing this story.

Candice Wu 54:17

Oh, yes. Thank you.

Candice Wu 54:19

I wanted to ask one more question, Ken.

Ken Honda 54:21

Yes.

Candice Wu 54:22

There’s a lot of racial tension, racial and ethnic tension in the United States about money, that connects with money, in relationship to money. And, for example, this idea of social reproduction, that if you’re born into a place of a certain race or ethnicity in the States, or maybe in the world, that it’s very hard for someone to climb out of that, because it’s so culturally embedded. And the experiences that one might have growing up, are completely different than someone who has wealth. So we’re looking at social class, from this kind of constructive thinking, right? There’s that, and there’s also the amount of trauma that African Americans have experienced in our country as well as Native Americans, Asian Americans, Latino Americans, so many, that I’m not naming, are having such a traumatic history in the connection with the United States.

Candice Wu 55:33

There’s also so much that was to gain, you know, coming here, I think people saw opportunity, family’s opportunity, and perhaps they did get it. And in some cases, maybe they didn’t. But there’s this hurt and wounding around being here and that does connect to how much money people feel they’re being paid here, or it does seem to bring about the mentality that how can certain groups of people come to find abundance if all this happened. And that it seems to be a societal, the way many people speak of it as societal disease, that relates to how we’re treating people. And so I wonder what your thoughts about it are and what you recommend to somebody that feels like they’re in that position?

Ken Honda 56:30

Yeah. So, you know, since I’m not a politician, I don’t — I’m not in a position of commenting what’s going on politically. But what I know is that people of all, ethnicity or older financial groups, they all feel that they’re mistreated. Now, wealthy people feel like, why they have to pay more taxes, you know, and upper-middle-class people feel the same way, like, all the taxes that they’re paying, are going to poor neighborhoods, you know, like, why am I paying for them? And the poor people feel like, you know, they’re not getting paid enough. They’re not getting enough attention. You know, so everybody’s upset.

Ken Honda 57:22

It’s so interesting from outsiders in North America, everybody seems so upset, you know. I’m not for your President, or I’m not against your president. But whatever I said, everybody gets emotionallycharged. So, you know, I know our Prime Minister, some people say bad things or good things, but we are families, we will not be divided because of him, you know, he doesn’t have that much power.

Ken Honda 57:53

So when you look at the issues, you feel like, it’s not fair. You know, it’s not — people think it’s not fair. And also, we are born with more talent and some are born with pretty faces, and, you know, cute faces, handsome, so we feel like, you know, it’s not, we’re not equally treated. And it’s true, when you look at lives, you know, some people are born with, all the great stuff. But when you think of happiness, I think it’s so fair. Because I have done a lot of counseling for people who come from a wealthy background and more money doesn’t necessarily translate into happiness. And also, you’re born into a very challenging place, but that doesn’t mean that you’ll be doomed. Because that gives you the right motivation to go up.

Ken Honda 59:00

So in terms of that, I think life is very fair. I call it the distance to happiness is equally the same even if you’re born in a super wealthy family, you have a great body, you know, good looking, and smart, you know, head. But if you don’t have the right attitude, you feel very miserable. So it’s nothing to do with how much again, how much you have or how much you make, it’s who you are. So the distance to happiness is amazingly equal. So I think it’s great news for all of us. So if, because the reason I’m saying is that, even though you have a private jet, if you’re not satisfied with your jet, you feel miserable.

Ken Honda 59:52

In one time, I had an interview with a very wealthy man and asked him when did you start feeling wealthy. And he said: “I don’t feel wealthy at all”. I asked him why? He said: “I don’t have a private jet”. And then later, I had a meeting with a guy with a private jet. “So do you feel wealthy?” And he says: “No, I’m not a wealthy person, no, I am financially okay.” and I said: “But you have a private jet”. And he said: “No. It’s small. It’s a small airplane. It can sit only six people.” So even —

Candice Wu 1:00:31

It’s all relative.

Ken Honda 1:00:32

Yeah, even though he has a private jet, he said, my private jet is very small. So he feels like a small man when his plane is parked, in you know, right next to the big super jet.

Candice Wu 1:00:47

Fascinating.

Ken Honda 1:00:48

Yeah. So you know, he feels so miserable in this, you know, parking area of big airplanes. So yeah, he feels very poor.

Candice Wu 1:00:58

Yeah. Wow.

Ken Honda 1:01:00

And then probably, if I can grab somebody with a big jet, he says, all my seats are like regularly installed one. It’s not custom made or something, you know, because all the royal families from the Middle East they put everything gold. So —

Candice Wu 1:01:17

Yeah. This is so refreshing, to hear you say that life is fair and the distance to happiness is amazingly equal. I do think that is very much a relief and it does challenge us to let go of or wipe away or look at why we have believed that money is going to solve every issue and money makes happiness, right? It can make happiness, but it doesn’t in all cases. And you have some really beautiful examples of how that’s true. And I think the illusion of people that feel like they’re not rich, or wealthy is that somehow it would, having more would make them happier. And what you’re saying that the distance to happiness is always the same, it’s equal for all people, no matter the situation, it doesn’t, it challenges us to see that it’s more than about money itself, which is everything you’re speaking to.

Ken Honda 1:02:37

Yeah. So, you know, don’t get discouraged that you have little money, or, you know, life is not treating you fairly, you may feel that way. But it’s not going to last for the rest of your life. It’s a temporary situation, and if you, you know, make it that way. So just be willing to receive more, ask for help if you’re in a hard spot, and then you just start your life and don’t let money stop you so, and let money help you.

Candice Wu 1:03:04

That’s a beautiful place to conclude today. Is there anything else you’d like to share?

Ken Honda 1:03:10

Thank you, once again, Candice. You’re such a beautiful person and I can really feel you’re impacting the world in such a beautiful way, so keep going.

Ken Honda 1:03:21

Yes, it’s not going to cost you anything. And then when you spend your money, also say thank you, you know, it’s going to give you such a great feeling, and then it’s going to transform your life. I’ve taught this to hundreds of thousands of people and it works. So just try it out for once. And then you’ll be hooked to this arigato world, because it’s more fun to appreciate people and being appreciated. It’s a happier way of living.

Ken Honda 1:03:21

And listeners, please be open to new ideas. Arigato in, Arigato out when the money comes in. Try that next time. Thank your money.

Candice Wu 1:03:34

Yeah.

Candice Wu 1:03:41

Thank you so much, Ken. It’s been such a pleasure. I really enjoyed laughing with you and talking about this important subject, important to all people, and I just love how you’re bringing the lightness to it, and guiding people to look truly at what’s underneath it, and to be themselves in life, to find peace with themselves which gives peace with money. And, Arigato.

Ken Honda 1:04:39

Thank you so much. Arigato everyone. Have a beautiful life.

Candice Wu 1:04:43

Thank you so much.

Ken Honda 1:04:44

Thank you so much

Candice Wu 1:04:45

Have a beautiful life as well.

Ken Honda 1:04:47

Thank you. It’s been such a great experience for me. I had so much fun with you and hope to see you soon in person and all the blessings to you.

Candice Wu 1:04:59

Thank you so much. So I would have to meet you in Japan.

Ken Honda 1:05:02

Yes.

Candice Wu 1:05:03

Where can people find you?

Candice Wu 1:05:04

Thank you so much.

Ken Honda 1:05:04

Yes, come anytime, all my information is KenHonda.com, KEN, and Honda as in the car company. So you’ll find all the information there. So, I will translate a lot of stuff into English. I’m going to make a lot of my courses for free so people can benefit from what I teach. So just look at the information. I’m so happy to share what I know. So I hope you learn how to appreciate more.

Ken Honda 1:05:35

Thank you.

Candice Wu 1:05:36

Thanks to you and your family Ken.

Ken Honda 1:05:37

Thank you.

Candice Wu 1:05:38

I love the energy that Ken brings to our relationship with money and just seeping in these very simple concepts that we can weave into our lives immediately like, Arigato in, arigato out, and it even feels better to say that in Japanese, but to say thank you, as money comes in and thank you as it goes out, to give that gratitude in both directions, just feels like it can be a thing you start right now.

Candice Wu 1:06:13

And I hope that this conversation has been interesting for you and stimulating for you just as much as it has been for me. And if you’ve been listening all the way through and want to partake of the audience gift offer, please send me a couple of sentences about anything that inspired you or what you thought of the episode, or any message that you’d like me to send to Ken as well about your thoughts on this podcast and what he has offered, what we have offered. If you send that to me in email, at embody@candicewu.com by October 1st, 2019, you will be entered in the drawing for one lucky winner to receive this hard copy of Ken’s book, Happy Money. If you’ve missed this deadline and still want to send feedback, I would love to hear it and I’m sure Ken would, as well. And there will be future offers like this where you can receive a copy of a book by the author. So tune into those episodes as they come along and usually it will be about a week and a half that you have in terms of the timing to get back to me, to be entered in the drawing. So again, you can send me an email at embody@candicewu.com or just go to my site Candicewu.com and find the Connect page, and send a couple of sentences with your feedback or thoughts, reactions, etc. I love to hear from you and thanks for participating.

Candice Wu 1:07:44

I also encourage you to check out Ken’s website where he’ll have other books coming out, events and talks and where you can find information on him and his book at KenHonda.com, as well as his Facebook page at facebook.com/kenhondahappymoney.

Candice Wu 1:08:04

So as we end the episode today, I would like to invite you to be part of my bi-monthly newsletter. Sign up for that at CandiceWu.com/embody. This is where you can also receive information about events that are coming up offerings, podcast guests, and other good stuff like self-love notes, information, pictures of me and things that I’m up to as well. So we will end our podcast today. Thanks so much for listening and it feels just rightfully fitting to say, Arigato out.