Candice Wu 0:00
In this episode is a conversation about the Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper video, racism and how it's been playing out in the U.S right now, the way my body expressed reactions and perceptions towards black people, and an experiential for you to open your own body-based exploration around people who are different from you.

Candice Wu 0:24
The Embody Podcast accompanies you on your journey of remembering and embodying your true nature, integration, and alignment with your vibrational clarity, self-love, and living a life of beauty and wholeness. It's a menu of transformative healing tools, experientials, meditations, and practices from a blend of Family Constellations, Somatic Therapies, and Holistic and Spiritual practices, sprinkled with vulnerable conversations with people who have the courage to be themselves, {alive now} Episodes with updates on my personal process and Reverie Episodes that are Spiritual succulents that honor, reveal, hug, shake or stir you into Love. I'm your host, Candice Wu, integrative and intuitive healing facilitator, and artist.

Candice Wu 1:24
Hi, everyone, welcome back.

Candice Wu 1:27
Today's episode is a deepening into the conversation around race wounds and hidden race wounds, racism, and how to work with this in the body.

Candice Wu 1:41
I talked a little bit about this already, including my personal experiences with some race wounds, both on the side of being the person holding a belief about someone that ended up hurting them and from the other side of feeling wounded or hurt.

Candice Wu 2:01
In that conversation was this opener, an invitation to look and to be with exactly what you feel. And to go into the deeper layers of what you experience and what you put upon others because of your own fears or because of looking good and doing what people call Performative Allyship, being an ally to people, like black people, perhaps, and just doing it for a pat on the back, and ignoring the deeper stuff that lives in your body that plays itself out.

Candice Wu 2:42
So that conversation started in that episode. You can find it at [CandiceWu.com/racewounds](https://CandiceWu.com/racewounds).

Candice Wu 2:50
It's your body that holds reactions and unconscious sentiments towards others that contribute to racism. And no matter who you are. If you're black, brown, white, yellow, every color or tone skin tone in between, going deeper into the dynamics of what's going on systemically means looking at your own body's reactions, along with any other actions that your heart feels called to take, if that's protesting, if that's speaking up, if that's donating money to organizations that are supporting black people or those that you feel you want to support. I suggest holding space for what's held in your own body and digesting it.

Candice Wu 3:41
If you don't involve your own body in healing racism or in your anti-racism efforts, it has a risk. Your support of Black Lives Matter or any other race movement, it has a risk of being only performative and not going deep enough or perpetuating the same underlying dynamics that you intend to shift, that you intend to be different. But because it's held in the unconscious of the body, it stays the same.

Candice Wu 4:12
There is an effect when we hold stuff that's living in our bodies. When you heal your body's experience and the unconscious lived experience, the world around literally changes. So I encourage you to build your own ability to respond to your own reactions and to respond in the world instead of reacting. This is your response-ability. And this is inner freedom. Inner freedom supports freedom for all.

Candice Wu 4:44
I promised I'd talk a little bit about Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper. And I think that's a great opening for this experiential that I want to offer today.

Candice Wu 4:55
So if you haven't seen the video with Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper, it might be interesting to look at that.

Candice Wu 5:04
What I witnessed was a white woman, Amy, calling the police on a black man who asked her to put a leash on her dog in New York City, in the park, and he was calm and anyway, I'm not going to describe all of it, you can watch the short clip. But what I want to highlight today, first is how extremely calm the black man was “Christian”. I'm amazed even I don't know if I would be able to handle it like that. And then secondly, how Amy, I kind of want to say just the white woman because this can apply to anybody, and it's really not about her personally. It can apply to me. Her reaction, I see, is because of trauma that maybe she doesn't know about. Her body flared up so much. And I can't assume what she felt. But I can see that her body was escalating and activated and her nervous system seemed to go haywire. She was yelling in a sort of uncontrolled way. And she weaponized calling the police against this man who — where it was totally not called for in that situation.

Candice Wu 6:41
And that's similar to what's happening with police officers. They're scared and they have a knee jerk reaction, or there's something else going on in this dynamic of their own lives and it's being taken out on a certain group of people, black people in particular, but people of other races, experiences too.

Candice Wu 7:08
So I don't want to exclude but I do want to be sensitive because right now is a strong time for listening and beholding space for black folks experience the space that hasn't been had and truly been acknowledging enough. And we would know that because it wouldn't exist if the society could hold enough space to honor respect and stand behind all people, especially black people.

Candice Wu 7:58
So this woman had this trauma response and this is not to excuse what she did. It is just to say that I think that's going on for a lot of people in the world and in the United States, that even with and now I'm not speaking about this woman, but in general, even with the best of intentions, we can still be holding these hidden pieces of ourselves that will have a threat response, a trauma response, given an experience with someone of another race in a particular circumstance, where that might not be proportionate to what's actually happening.

Candice Wu 8:51
And because this has happened for so long and reiterated itself, repeated itself over and over and over in many ways, in this country of the United States, and perhaps in other countries, it has become a place where we're on autopilot, we are numb and these protests are waking many people up.

Candice Wu 9:19
So in this experiential today, I invite you to get curious about what it is that happens in your body and to be honest with yourself, to see and feel what you feel, and to have the courage to allow whatever comes up to be part of your process, in looking at your own racism. Or, if you want to say it in different terms, the ways that your unconscious wounds and belief sets then you may keep down, can live out.

Candice Wu 10:07
The important idea here is Performative Allyship. It's when you ally with people that won't support, won't to stand by them and you do it for a pat on the back and not in a whole and embodied way looking deeper. And that's really dangerous because it's a way to avoid looking at the deeper stuff that we all have.

Candice Wu 10:46
I don't know maybe the Dalai Lama doesn't have it, I don't know. But I want to venture to say we all have something and you can listen to my episode about what I experienced. And those were just two examples out of many I've looked at in my life. Many places where I have seen myself have different responses in my body towards people who look different than me or who are different or people of a different race. And that means something, that does something when I don't acknowledge it.

Candice Wu 11:23
So it's important to know what's there and just own it, and be honest with yourself to do so, and to look at how that affects your interactions. It's not a time to put blame on yourself, but to be gentle, so that you can look. It's not a time to shame yourself, even though you may feel shame.

Candice Wu 11:54
So I'm talking to everyone, including myself. I'm not just talking to White people, how we feel in our bodies. When we see a person of another race, or of another, whatever, we perceive them as different. We have a reaction in our bodies. It may be one of welcoming and warmth. So see if that's there for you. It may be, I can't look, it's hard to look, it may be fear, it may be sadness because some memory gets triggered up from your ancestry through your body or your past life, wherever it came from.

Candice Wu 12:43
All of that affects how we interact with each other and what we ignore, what we look at, who gets seen, who doesn't? What part of you get seen and doesn't?

Candice Wu 13:04
And so here is an opening to deepen in your own personal responsibility, response-ability, the ability to respond, the ability to look and hold and be with your own reactions and respond.

Candice Wu 13:26
So if you would like to please jump into this experience with me, and you can have a pillow or some sort of object to support this process. I'm going to invite you to move around your space using that pillow or book or some sort of prop, even a piece of paper and you can write on it. And I'll let you know what this object or paper is going to represent in just a moment.

Candice Wu 14:00
If you are not in a space where you can do this physically, or you don't have enough privacy, say you're in transit or something, you can imagine this in your mind. I don't recommend doing this while you're driving though, so please find a comfortable, safe space.

Candice Wu 14:22
When I first began looking at my biases, reactions, perceptions, and beliefs around black people or about them, I was surprised to notice that I couldn't really look at them. I was afraid of their power actually. I had both an idealized view that they were like, all-powerful grounded beings who could dance, kind of like drum up their warriors' selves and dance it out in this way that I wish I could be. And that I might be like screamed at, that was the sense I got, that I might be screamed at by someone who is black, and I wouldn't be able to handle it.

Candice Wu 15:24
Well, the perception was that they were erratic or perhaps angry, uncontrollable and that scared me. The perceptions that I placed upon black people were more about me than anything else. They were about my childhood wounding where I could get screamed at and that was terrifying and some of that had not been digested and metabolized or integrated. They were about ancestral trauma, wounding from culture to culture through my ancestry that it was intergenerational, the history of black people and Chinese people against each other.

Candice Wu 16:10
They were also about the fear of my own power and fear of others being full in their power. That part of your own power is the freedom to stand up and speak your truth and be that warrior self. And if I could have it, that was scary, what that would be for me, and if others could have it, then my own reactions to that and what would I do with that, that was scary.

Candice Wu 16:40
So when we leave these perceptions, but not only perceptions, our body's responses, our wounding, our untouched wounds, stuck in time, it's like cobwebs and bones in your closet or in your kitchen and they are rotting, and they're creating this undertone. And that is the underlying foundation of systemic racism and violence. That is what can bubble up and fuel our interactions with people of different races or of difference. And we may not be aware of that.

Candice Wu 17:24
And when I did get more courage in myself to look and to feel that I really wanted to digest it, so that I didn't have that experience, and I wasn't putting that on black people around me and I did.

Candice Wu 17:49
I felt like a whole shift because when I would imagine looking at a black person or when I was actually in front of a black person, and I'm not saying all Black people. I'm saying ones that I don't know, or certain ones that maybe they dressed differently than White people, or Asian people around me. Or, they had a certain kind of attitude that I wasn't used to and I don't mean a bad attitude. I mean, like, they're sassy in a certain way. I couldn't look at them. I would – like – slink away or turn away. And I didn't even notice that response until I did.

Candice Wu 18:45
And so the experiential that I want to offer today is one of that kind of practice, to get to know if you haven't already, some of those reactions that you may have and if you already know your reactions, it's a chance to test it out, comb through it and see what's here for you today.

Candice Wu 19:12
So what I'd invite you to do is take a pillow, or some sort of object to use as a prop. And with that, have a space that you can move about, that's private and quiet. If you're doing this on public transit, or in a place you don't have that much space, you could try visualizing this in your mind, but I would not do this while driving or operating any machinery.

Candice Wu 19:58
We're going to invite this object, this prop to represent someone of a race that you are wanting to look at your own reactions within your own body. It could be a Black person, it could be another — a Black person of another color, if you are Black, could be White person, could be Chinese, whoever. Just choose one for now, and you can do this with any other kind of person or a person with difference, like a different ability, size, accent or language, different sexuality. This can be applied to anything.

Candice Wu 21:03
So as you designate this prop to represent this person, this kind of person, and obviously, it's like a generalized thing, although different people you know may come to mind. Place the objects somewhere in your space, just intuitively wherever it feels right. And allow yourself to stand in a space interacting with this person.

Candice Wu 21:29
Imagine this person. Notice where you stand and how close or far away and allow your body to move around until you find a place where your body goes, where you land, where what happens is just happening. And open your curiosities, so that you can just allow whatever it is that's here to be here, to be discovered, to be revealed, and maybe even to surprise yourself in the safety of your own experience.

Candice Wu 22:15
There's no judgment or shame about whatever you may experience and you may even experience your own shame or judgment, and that's okay too.

Candice Wu 22:38
Now, feel and begin to witness what emotions and sensations you have inside your body as you're aware of this person. Become aware of where your eyes are looking, where they can look, or where they cannot.

Candice Wu 23:06
Can you see this person? And what happens in your body when you do look?

Candice Wu 23:19
And be open to anything, maybe it's warmth, maybe it's nothing. Maybe it's fear or some tension or a tightening of your shoulder, towards your neck and ear. Look for the subtleties and just be curious as you explore inward and downward.

Candice Wu 23:53
And whatever distance you're at, notice if you go closer, just a bit or farther just a bit, what begins to happen there inside your own body.

Candice Wu 24:19
And if you allow yourself to recognize or acknowledge that this person has a right to be, and to exist, what happens in you?

Candice Wu 24:46
And experiment with saying to them, I see you. And if it's true or not, can you see them?

Candice Wu 24:55
Can you see that they have a family or that they came from somewhere in terms of having an ancestry of people behind them?

Candice Wu 25:14
Can you see that they may have desires or dreams and honor that, what happens in you?

Candice Wu 25:30
Can you see if they have wounds or that they have wounds? Are you open to seeing that?

Candice Wu 25:49
And now just looking at your own experience, your own body even more, notice whatever happens in your body. Are there any thoughts about this person that is beginning to reveal itself?

Candice Wu 26:10
Any fears? Assumptions?

Candice Wu 26:23
And these assumptions don't have to even be “bad”. They might just be any assumption that you don't know has an unintended consequence. For example, thinking an Asian person is smart. That's an assumption and that can have an undesired effect. Even if you think it's a good thing to think about someone.

Candice Wu 27:03
Notice what there is here.

Candice Wu 27:07
Again in your body, all the way down to your toes.

Candice Wu 27:18
And whatever there is here to notice or witness, just allow yourself a few more moments here to do so and experiment with this dynamic as much or as little as you want moving closer, farther, standing next to, standing behind, seeing their ancestry, letting them see you.

Candice Wu 27:56
Noticing any part of you that has dislike or disgust or any other uncomfortable feeling. And let yourself investigate that by just being with it.

Candice Wu 28:20
And you might take longer here or take note of pieces of what you experience, thoughts that may have come up. Recognize that not everything is going to come up here. Because this stuff generally happens when you interact with life itself. And there are different ways that circumstances can draw out unknown perceptions or things that were just hidden or that you've hidden from yourself.

Candice Wu 28:56
So this is just an opening.

Candice Wu 29:02
When you're ready, take that prop and release it back to what it is. The pillow or the object that it is. And check in with yourself again.

Candice Wu 29:14
Notice how you're feeling in your body. Anything that's happening for you.

Candice Wu 29:26
Thank yourself for having the time and making the time and space, for having the courage to look.

Candice Wu 29:36
And feel free to try this again with any other kind of person that is different from you. Just checking to see what there is to know, what there can be revealed to you.

Candice Wu 29:52
And if you have someone that's willing to do it with you in person, someone who is different from you, if it's a safe experience that you can set up for the two of you that's agreed upon, that might be really interesting.

Candice Wu 30:11
And know that there are lots of spaces of Systemic Constellations that hold space for race wounds and race dynamics, wounds of our ancestry.

Candice Wu 30:26
In this experiential, we just looked at the body's reactions, the body's experience, when in the presence of someone who's different from you.

Candice Wu 30:41
In upcoming episodes, I want to look at parts of us that hold certain wounds, certain perceptions that may open up to our own personal wounding, or the wounding of our ancestry that we've inherited or have been replaying.

Candice Wu 31:02
And I want to talk about some Spiritual perspectives that zoom out farther, that are not unrelated to what we're talking about, but from a different vantage point to look at, from the level of creation. How have we created this and what it is that we're creating so we can take a deeper responsibility? A farther back perspective of responsibility and come out of any of our own victimization where we feel like someone else is to blame or to fault or something. Not everyone will be ready for that kind of risk, possibility, or presence.

Candice Wu 32:03
Some people at different times need acknowledgment of other people because that's where the wound happened. But I want to offer these coming up, so stay tuned if you're interested in that.

Candice Wu 32:19
Feel free to reach out to me and share your own experience with this experiential or pieces of this work that you're interested in. My email is [embody@candicewu.com](https://CandiceWu.com/connect). Feel free to leave a comment if you're seeing this on Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

Candice Wu 32:36
Thank you so much, and please be gentle with yourself. Support your body if you need it. And again, thank yourself for practicing this today.

Candice Wu 32:51
I'll leave you with just a little music to transition and allow your body to come back into the present moment and to whatever else your day holds.

Candice Wu 33:03
Thanks so much for joining me. I'll see you next time.

Candice Wu 0:00
This is an a{Life} Now episode about polarity, and coming into oneness and neutrality, dropping into a deeper space of love, and creating a new way of being, a new Earth, a new Life, creating new dynamics.

Candice Wu 0:18
And in this episode, I share about a feeling of worthlessness and wanting to disappear that I had, that surprised me and gave me some unexpected healing and wisdom.

Candice Wu 0:34
The embody podcast accompanies you on your journey of remembering and embodying your true nature, integration, and alignment with your vibrational clarity, self-love, and living a Life of Beauty and wholeness. It's a menu of transformative healing tools, experientials, meditations, and practices from a blend of Family Constellations, Somatic Therapies, and Holistic and Spiritual practices, sprinkled with vulnerable conversations with people who have the courage to be themselves, {alive now} Episodes with updates on my personal process and reverie Episodes that are “spiritual succulents” that honor, reveal, hug, shake or stir you into Love. I'm your host, Candice Wu, integrative and intuitive healing facilitator, and artist.

Candice Wu 1:36
Something that I've always been interested in is the opposite side of things, the polarity. The two sides of one coin, and especially where there are things that we overvalue in our society or we stigmatize. I've been interested in finding some sort of neutrality, where I can feel for and understand both sides and feel the bridge in between that links them. And it's with that.

Candice Wu 2:15
The other day, I was noticing this feeling of, I feel worthless. I am worthless. I am nothing, and I want to dissolve into nothing. I want to disappear. And for most people and even by my own perspective, I have built up my worthiness and thought that it was important to feel into self-worth rather than worthlessness and to heal worthlessness. And that, I guess, I wouldn't say it was a bad thing. It's just that it's not a feeling that resonates with my being that I feel worthless.

Candice Wu 2:59
So if it's there, either ignore it or if it's not ignorable, not ignore it, but just, it doesn't have power. But if it does have power, then look at it and heal it.

Candice Wu 3:12
And so here it came the other day and it came with a bit of sadness. So, kind of familiar to maybe other past feelings of worthlessness or unworthiness that I felt, but it had a different quality and it was here now, so I followed it. And they followed it, more words came and it continued on from I want to disappear. I want to dissolve into nothing. I want to be nothing.

Candice Wu 3:44
I asked myself a question that sometimes helps me. If I could dissolve into nothing, if I could feel worthless and nothing and disappear, what would it give me?

Candice Wu 4:00
When the knowing came, I just teared up and it felt like such a relief. And it was that I would feel peace. It surprised me, it surprised my mind at least… like I would feel peace if I felt worthless. I would feel peace if I could disappear. But those were actually the keywords, “disappear”.

Candice Wu 4:24
What it really meant to be, and it came through those words, even though it may not make total logical sense, but it kind of does, in that there are parts of me that have felt like I owed others something, that I exist for others. And I feel responsible for others, their well being or for making people happy.

Candice Wu 4:53
At this time of my life, it's only fragments of me like, little pieces of debris that feel that way. And, here it was, in this different format unexpected and surprising format, where, if I could disappear then it would feel amazing and peaceful because I wouldn't have to answer to anyone else. I wouldn't have to feel responsible for anyone else. I could be in my own world and be me and just be responsible for me and live my life for me, that I exist for me.

Candice Wu 5:37
It really brought me to clean up my dynamics with others, another level, where I trust in my own freedom and autonomy and I am that. I claim that. I take up that space as well as see the sovereignty of others. And, they're through responsibility for themselves and deeper knowing of their autonomy and wholeness and strength, and capacity and their journey, their path whatever they choose to do. And however one chooses to experience and be as a whole in their existence.

Candice Wu 6:27
So, I was shedding a layer of peace, of feeling like I owed others something in order to be okay. And if I, from that place of feeling that way, if I gave to others in a certain way, and these are little small things now, like returning text messages, maybe when I am not feeling totally compelled to in my being but feel like I should or feel guilty, emails and such.

Candice Wu 6:30
I'm really quite good at it now to just do it when I feel, I'm connected with it and that is for me to do in that moment I feel aligned and I feel happy or delighted to do it or feel purposeful for myself. It's truly a feeling of being in harmony with myself, my desires, and living fully in my being for my existence and for others because that is true harmony. If I can be fully in my existence, and others can too, everyone has that choice too.

Candice Wu 7:42
The process of getting there is a result of that choice or the journey with that choice can be something with that, I'm deeply free and so are others. And from that place, then I can connect with the cleaner intention, more of me, present and congruent with a clear intention of connection. Not connecting with others because I feel like I owe them something or I'm responsible for them and dependent, codependent in that way, on the dynamic, so it's breaking free of that dynamic and healing it and letting myself be from a freer place that is delighted to connect with people and interconnected, when I want to be and how much I want to be, as well as knowing that unconsciously and energetically, there's still a collective connection.

Candice Wu 8:50
So the feeling of the words and feeling of worthlessness going to wanting to disappear, going to peace, freedom, and harmony was so powerful for me and I loved that spin on it, of worthlessness. And it reminded me of how much I enjoy looking at polarities, and how going on one side or the other of a polarity is actually coming from the same energy.

Candice Wu 9:24
So the need to feel worthy and the need to feel, in my case, this kind of worthlessness that I am not indispensable, that I'm not the sole provider for certain people or like, so needed by people gives me a lot of freedom. But that I can be there for other people if I want to. And both sides of that spectrum come from not a place that I'd like to criticize or put as lesser or lower or worse, but more so a developmental, appropriate place of needing to develop that knowing and that side of myself, needing to know what it feels like to be worthy, needing to know what it feels like to be worthless, and therefore being able to come into the center of neutrality, that I'm not either of those things with that. I'm neither of those things and everything both. With that, I'm the awareness that feels these experiences. And to move beyond it naturally is to have felt both sides and understand them in my body. And then it's not a thing anymore. And that's where it's becoming. It's really nice to feel more in myself. More here for myself and coming towards connection from a more easeful, pure, and clear place of desire when that's there. And when it's not there, that's just the right thing.

Candice Wu 11:26
So what this leaves me with for all of you and for myself is the — just awareness that we are none of the things that we are trying to say we are and we are those things at the same time, you know, we are enough… inherently… and there's a deeper enoughness and worth of our existence that just is and that goes back to just almost all Spiritual sources that are deep knowing that we are, we exist, and therefore have value just because we exist. And to just feel that in my bones and my knowing, and to look at the places that maybe I hold and attach myself to, as part of the polarity, the duality, and to allow those places to gently come to the oneness, where it holds both, the both and the nothing.

Candice Wu 12:40
So some of these words, you know, I explain this in a kind of complicated way. I'm sure I could have explained this more simply. But I hope that you're receiving the energy of this, no matter what, and that if you've listened to it, that there's something in it for you, perhaps, or some piece of it that just connects with you. And if not, feel free to just leave it.

Candice Wu 13:07
I wanted to share this piece with you. It relates to a lot of the things I have talked about on the podcast like touching into the shadow side of empathy in that episode. You can find it at [CandiceWu.com/empathy](https://CandiceWu.com/empathy). Just looking at ways in which empathy goes awry, turns awry, and the door just opened.

Candice Wu 13:34
And just looking at the other side of the things that we assume our values and we assume, should be a certain way. And the way we look at society as a collective and what's happening, even social justice, it's coming in as a disguised form of the same energy of the opposition, sometimes. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just swinging from one side to the other and reliving the same energy or energetic dynamic and relational dynamic as well.

Candice Wu 14:20
And if that's the case in your life, are there ways that you want to come into the neutral space?

Candice Wu 14:28
A neutral space doesn't mean you don't take any action or do anything that helps people or that brings awareness or does some good, does some — and I question the word “good”, but does something that you want to create that feels good. It just means being neutral just means that you get to do it from a place of freedom and from a place that doesn't create the same effect from the opposite end.

Candice Wu 15:02
When we look at racism and anti-racism, that's often that kind of dynamic, where racism is on one polarity and anti-racism is on the other and it's coming from the same place of hurt. And it can often create the same hurt… or another level of hurt. And if you take the content out of it and look at the pattern, all dynamic of the energy or the things that are happening that it creates, produces something similar, another opposition.

Candice Wu 15:50
I know it's very pronounced with our president in the United States, Trump, and in other countries as well. There's a lot of opposition and polarity and divisiveness and we're really seeing opposition very prominently in our experiences as humans here.

Candice Wu 16:14
I don't necessarily like some of the things that I see. And where can I find a neutral space where I can bring loving, that isn't of the same pattern I see, is what I like to go for. And then, of course, there are just so many million ways that our dynamics are hidden to even ourselves and maybe to others too. Ways we feel like we're doing something good and it covertly creates the same wound or hurt.

Candice Wu 16:52
And so I just love this conversation.

Candice Wu 16:55
Let this be a conversation with you if it's a place of awareness that you want to build in yourself. If it's something you want to create, and as many people are saying, now we are creating a new Earth or we're creating a new vision. We're stepping into a new way of being. However you say that or put words to it, I think finding the neutral space where both sides of polarity can be held and dissolve into the oneness and the nothingness, the wholeness, the totality, the drop into a larger expanse of awareness, where that's more connected with source. When that can come through, we have the ability to really create something different.

Candice Wu 17:55
So that's all that wants to come through today. Thanks for listening.

Candice Wu 17:59
Sending my love out there to all of you and the energy of clarity, the light to be able to see yourself, see the world from a different standpoint that's not attached to polarity.

Candice Wu 18:14
Hope you're all doing okay and if you want to hear more from the {alive now} series, check that out at [CandiceWu.com/podcast](https://CandiceWu.com/podcast) and you can click on {alive now} to see the thread of all the episodes that were alive and present for me in the moment of recording and very raw, as well as other podcasts by me and guests and the experiential and meditations that you can tune into as well. And if specifically, you want the meditations and experientials for healing or grounding, loving yourself, you can find it at [CandiceWu.com/meditations](https://CandiceWu.com/meditations).

Candice Wu 18:54
Thanks for listening to the Embody Podcast to this {alive now} episode.

Candice Wu 19:01
See you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

In this podcast, we have Nick Werber back on the show, yay! In this episode, we talk all about intention setting and the process that brings in our lives, what it means and how to move through, as well as where our family systems intentions, our ancestries’ intentions come in, and how to respect those.

Candice Wu 0:22

Find out if Nick and I are the black sheep of our families and whether there’s a black sheep in you.

Candice Wu 0:30

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love. My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:06

The podcast is supported by so many of you out there listening and people who either quietly donate some money or give their feedback and their encouragement. Thank you all so much. And if you’d like to support the podcast in a more specific way, there are two options right now that are very interesting. You can sign up for a periodic personal meditation that I record personally for you based on your intentions and based on my intuition of what you’re sharing and what might be needed. And that can be a one time experience, an mp3 that I send to you, or a gift to somebody, or by subscription where you get that periodically.

Candice Wu 1:53

Or, if you’re interested in something that has more connection and contact with me, you can join my Embodied Group healing call. These very small groups offer a compassionate and embodied soul support space for anything you’re going through in life. So if you’d like to learn more about that, feel free to go to my website at CandiceWu.com/support.

Candice Wu 2:19

Following this episode will be a special recording by Michael Picucci of an adaptation of Bert Hellinger’s writing. So Michael Picucci is Nick Werber’s mentor and friend and fellow healer. And he speaks about him in the first episode that we have together that we recorded together last year and in this episode, so you can hear a little bit more about Michael Picucci and Bert Hellinger is the founder of Family Constellations.

Candice Wu 2:52

Both of these beautiful people and healers passed away last year and so what a lovely experience to have this on the podcast for all of you to experience. And, Nick was such a close person to Michael, that he’s offered to share this on the podcast and knows that Michael would really love for others to experience it. The offering in this meditation is called consenting and it’s lovely to inspire, bringing consent to people around you, situations, agreeing to what’s happening, and what your human experience is, such that it brings new possibilities or allows ease and brings the next unfolding. So be sure to tune into that later this week or following this episode, depending on when you tune in. And without further ado, here is Nick.

Candice Wu 3:58

Not really sure how to jump in Nick, this is your second time on the podcast. It’s so cool to have you here.

Nick Werber 4:04

Yeah, I’m really excited to be back again. I know, you know, since last week did that first podcast I’ve gotten, it’s surprising. It’s people, you know, every so often. It’s like, “Oh, I found you through, you know, Candice Wu and I love Candice.” So, I’m really excited to be back because, yeah, a lot of people love that first one, at least they tell me, so.

Candice Wu 4:27

Yeah, I get a lot of great feedback from it, too. And people really have enjoyed what you have to say, and enjoyed our conversation, and some people could just feel like that we were friends. And that’s so true. I just so appreciate you, Nick.

Candice Wu 4:43

And the first podcast we did was maybe about a year and a half ago. And for those of you who haven’t listened to it, or maybe want to review, it’s at Candicewu/nick and it’s also on your website. Right, Nick?

Nick Werber 5:02

True. I think it is. Yeah.

Candice Wu 5:04

At nwerber.com. And, Nick, can you just tell the listeners out there a little bit about who you are and what you do, just as a refresher?

Nick Werber 5:17

Sure.

Nick Werber 5:19

So, I call myself, you know, the label that I use as an integrative coach and a healer. And really, what that means to me is that I just, I pull in many different modalities into my work. And some of the big ones are Family Constellations work, which is all about, you know, this work of how so much of what we’re facing and experiencing didn’t start with us. You know that the context that we live in, has a huge effect on who we are so that can apply to family. It can also apply to our nation and our culture as well as our, actually our ancestral history of these things that long tail of history actually has a real effect on who we are.

Nick Werber 6:08

And then for me, all my work is really on this, founded on this bedrock of somatic trauma work, specifically a modality called focalizing. Which is, you know, really just the best practices I think of any time you’re working with trauma, that overwhelm is the enemy and you might hear this just in the way that I speak and the way I approach things is that just I think the best healing is done in this very stable, gentle space where people can feel safe and, you know, in addition to that, I also have a bunch of training and hypnosis.

Nick Werber 6:49

Sometimes the way I say it is that you know, the work is, all of it is focused on, you know, we have these very deep, unconscious parts of ourselves, as far as we know, we might only use somewhere between 1 to 3% of our brain and consciously, I’m sorry, only 1 –3 percent of our mind is conscious. And so all the work I do is really about working with the unconscious and how God affects so much of what we’re experiencing.

Candice Wu 7:22

Beautiful.

Candice Wu 7:24

And, Nick, I think I told you this before, but someone recently told me that you and I could have been brother and sister in a past life or siblings. And that just makes so much sense to me on many levels, which I’m not going to get into now, totally, but that just feels true in some ways, we’re like siblings in this healing, embodied work, and that’s part of what I so value about your work, how much of the experience in the process that you bring forward, that I love as well, and do my own versions of. But I also deeply value the way that you use your language and words to key into very important and relevant topics that we’re all dealing with in some fashion that get people, it like creeps in sideways in new ways, fresh, very refreshing way of speaking and writing that leave an echo in me. So thank you.

Nick Werber 8:49

Yeah, it’s an addition to the practice. I’m absolutely a writer at heart and love writing about the subject and I love that we were brother and sister in a past life. I believe it. I’m sorry, I interrupted you maybe in that past life I, you know, as an older brother, maybe I spoke over you I don’t know.

Candice Wu 9:12

Well, what I was told specifically was that in the past life, I always lived in your shadow. And I felt like, I could never like, come out of the shadow next to you. And so I was struggling with the feelings of like not being good enough in relation to you and always trying to win at that game but never winning.

Nick Werber 9:39

Oh God, it is sad.

Candice Wu 9:41

It is sad.

Nick Werber 9:45

I’m sorry.

Candice Wu 9:46

No. Yeah, you better be.

Nick Werber 9:49

Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:52

And just for all of you listening out there, the reason this came up was that, I, and I think I told you, Nick, I would read your posts and then I would just get, I would feel so, like, jealous to the point of feeling bad about myself, not the kind of jealousy that says, “ooh, this is exciting, this challenges me to grow,” which is probably more where I am at this point. But when I was getting triggered by your wonderful post, I was like, I’m not enough and like, now I need to be doing what Nick’s doing and I need to write like that and I could hear myself and I was like, “Why? Why am I? Why?”

Candice Wu 10:41

So it really helps to bring that into the light and for the emotions to move around it. But yeah, stop speaking over me, Nick. You hardly do that. No. You were just saying before we started recording that this is a totally different experience already and I’d love for you to share why with everyone.

Nick Werber 11:11

Well, last time, basically, I think we spent the first half an hour after we connected just working on why the microphone was so loud. And I, you know, I live in New York City and so there’s always some kind of construction or weirdness. Like, even this call I, you know, this podcast, I purposely asked you to do earlier in the afternoon, because when it gets close to two or three, there’s going to be school buses outside my window, you know, backing up and beeping and all that.

Candice Wu 11:39

The beeping yup. And you’ve got your mic from back in the day when you used to record music.

Nick Werber 11:46

That’s true. Yes. Yeah. I have the microphone that NPR uses and it’s really beautiful, and I pulled it out of the closet and it was dusty and there was something sitting on it so the phone is all deformed, but it sounds good.

Nick Werber 12:05

Yeah.

Candice Wu 12:08

Well, I made a big mistake, Nick, when you emailed me last night about some of the topics you wanted to talk about today on the show, I read it at 10 pm, your email and I, and then I couldn’t sleep for like four hours. So it’s really all your fault. I mean, that I read the email. Yeah, it was like 10 pm and I’m reading your email, and you’re bringing up the topics that you’re interested in, so I’ll just say some of them because I think they’re fabulous and that is what kept me up until like, two in the morning because I was just like thinking about these topics and your thoughts about them and so excited to hear from you about intention and the intersection of family and family history in regards to our intention, or how they weave in, what we reject and what we resist and how that impacts us and stays with us. You wanted to talk about the beautiful mystery and meaning behind who were born to in this life and what that we’re alive perspective can look like versus a dead perspective. And, then a little bit about narcissists versus empath relationships and black sheep, and also this misnomer of letting go of something or letting, letting things go. So, yes, obviously.

Nick Werber 13:42

When you put it like that, now it’s like, “Whoa, that’s a lot!”

Candice Wu 13:45

Right? I was like, boom, my head was like, Okay, yeah, I get it. Also, it was like getting back in the game of life after the holidays and I kind of just went into a cave.

Candice Wu 14:00

So before we jump in, you know, I was wondering, some of the words I wrote down for myself yesterday when I was just gathering myself trying to come back into my regular sort of schedule, as regular as that can be. But some of the words I wrote down were cave, because that was emerging cave and emerging out of the cave, surrender, the need for trust, clarity, but also not knowing at the same time, and then beauty and quiet. And I wonder, Nick, what words are popping up for you in your experience of life at the moment?

Nick Werber 14:41

I think flow is one, shame is another, connection, and I think the word, it’s almost like, expanse comes up because I feel, you know, I, as you know, Candice, I got married in September this past year and there’s, you know, so much an event like that kind of focuses you in such a powerful way. And, you know, right afterward it’s kind of holiday season comes through and now I feel like there’s this sort of expanse so now what do I do with the rest of my life?

Candice Wu 15:24

With the rest of your life? Yeah.

Candice Wu 15:26

It’s like, that’s a huge expanse. Yeah, I can imagine, right? Like having a wedding, you said focuses you so much. It’s like all your energies seem to culminate to that moment and all the people in your life at least from what I, you know what I saw of your wedding, and then coming into this I don’t know, quiet space or open space.

Nick Werber 15:26

Exactly.

Nick Werber 16:01

It’s open, and it’s playful. It’s like, I choose my adventure now. And I mean, I chose my adventure before too, but you choose it and then everything becomes very singularly focused. I feel now there’s a little bit more playfulness with each day, I can choose my adventure. And it doesn’t always have to relate to a particular goal either.

Candice Wu 16:25

Sounds really nice. I like that.

Nick Werber 16:28

Yeah, it is nice.

Candice Wu 16:29

Yeah. And then you said shame, connection. And there’s one other word I just forgot the first word.

Nick Werber 16:39

I think flow.

Candice Wu 16:40

Flow. That’s right. Yeah, do you want to say any more about this before we tune into the topics we have for today?

Nick Werber 16:48

You know, I feel like they’re going to come through in whatever we talk about. Because you know, I think speaking like this is a co-creative process. and whatever is living within us in this moment comes through. I’m borrowing a little bit from writers that I like and I recently a little bit of a tangent but I’ve been watching a little bit of Mad Men again and then interested in Matthew Weiner and you know, he basically said it’s every episode is what he was experiencing, you know when he wrote it. I think that’s true for most creation.

Candice Wu 17:31

Yeah, that makes sense. Where the energy comes through somewhere. So yeah, speaking of, oh, what were you going to say?

Nick Werber 17:41

I was going to say, I think I feel a sense that I’d like to talk about intention a little bit because it is, you know, new year’s time and it’s just so, I think it’s top of mind for so many people right now.

Candice Wu 17:54

Yeah, I was feeling that too. Yeah, did you create an intention for the year or for this time frame?

Nick Werber 18:01

I created several intentions and, you know, I found it actually reminded me how much I love intention that for me when I’m just working, kind of getting through my day doing tasks on a, you know, an hourly or a weekly basis, you know, whatever that kind of goal-line is, I start to lose track of meaning. You know, I feel like I’m kind of floating and I’m not sure where I’m going or, you know, maybe people relate to this where you just kind of realized, like, why am I doing this actually. And intention, I think, sitting down and actually writing down you know, here’s what I think is a life well spent, my time well spent and it’s not that I didn’t create a bucket list it was, you know, my intentions are a little bit more short term than that, but there’s just something very powerful to collecting yourself and in writing down, you know, here’s what I think is a good use of my time, here’s what I want to give to other people, here’s what I want to receive, and I couldn’t believe how much better I felt when I just did that simple process.

Candice Wu 19:27

Yeah, it’s, to me that’s actually such a playful process too, it’s like, I get this chance to gather myself and see what does feel meaningful and to clarify it. And I have felt that power of not just the writing down, but for me, I can use visioning like, seeing it in my mind and kind of carving out that vision in my mind that it’s not always so cut and dry like, I’m going to look at a vision of what I desire, what I’m looking forward into. But it’s this feeling sense that comes with seeing bits and pieces of where things are going for me and, or where I’d like them to go and it’s really fun. It’s like playing with consciousness, playing with myself.

Nick Werber 20:22

And I think when I hear you say that, you’re getting at something that I think is very important about intention, which is that intention is really supported when we find ways of moving beyond our just goal setting, kind of thinking mind. And so visioning is one way, when I do it, intention setting, I really tap into my body awareness quite a bit. And so it’s, you know, I think we have so much intelligence that is beyond our task-oriented mind and that intelligence is so important when it comes to, I think finding intentions that are valuable to us and valuable to the world and, you know, knowing, like you said, seeing what’s emerging ahead of you.

Candice Wu 21:14

I love that and when you say you use your body awareness and your body intelligence, what exactly do you do?

Nick Werber 21:24

So I actually have been playing with and this is what I used and this most recent intention setting process, a very specific way of working with body awareness, which is that I sit and I write the intentions, one intention per piece of paper. And then I actually put them out on the floor, and then stand on each one and embody the intention. And I’m sure this will sound very familiar to Candice in terms of Family Constellation process. You just step into the intention. Just close your eyes, tune in, and I do this with my clients as well. And it’s amazing how quickly just you get that little sense of Ooh, that’s, you know, it’s not the next five years, it’s actually in the next ten years I’d like to receive this or, maybe, you know, you start to suddenly get really strong senses of the wording of what you wrote. And, if you just connect with your body a little bit, you can feel, am I feeling contracted here? Am I feeling expanded here? Does it feel like a yes, does it feel like a no. And so that’s, I like things that get you up off the couch and connecting with things. Not only, you know, in your mind’s eye, but also in a physical way.

Candice Wu 22:45

Yeah, it brings more of us into the picture, alive into the experience. I love that.

Nick Werber 22:56

You know, this is, I have to give a little bit of a nod to one of my teachers, a person named Dr. Michael Pecucci, but he would say at this time, in a conversation like this, that we should set an intention for this conversation.

Candice Wu 23:14

Okay. We are.

Nick Werber 23:17

And I just thought that came to me it’s maybe a good idea.

Candice Wu 23:22

Okay. Yeah, why don’t we take a moment and feel that? Yeah.

Nick Werber 23:41

That’s funny that you said feeling because it definitely feels like a feeling to me actually.

Candice Wu 23:47

What are you getting?

Nick Werber 23:51

So, to me, the intention, and just for kind of our listeners, so there’s the intention that we might think we want to have at the end. But there’s a level of intention that’s kind of, it’s like, what already is there, asking to be connected to.

Nick Werber 24:08

And so that’s what the second part is what I’m speaking to when I say this, that for me, when I just think about the intention for this conversation, there is a fullness in my body. It feels like this feeling that I get when I’m like, wow, I listened to something that I’m going to be thinking about for a couple days and processing and referencing and it’s kind of that feeling of, I’m glad I spent time doing that.

Candice Wu 24:36

I love what you said, like what is already there and asking to be connected to and I find that when I tune in that way and listen, it’s a more aligned intention, like it emerges, it reveals itself. It’s already living. And yeah, I love the feeling that you’re bringing up the fullness, the feeling of the listening to something here.

Candice Wu 25:15

I got the words, being extremely honest with myself and outward, outwardly. And then also playing with the ideas that the concepts that we have put on the table like playing with you, Nick. And I think in your email to me about these topics you said, feel free to disagree or feel free to, you know, argue with this or something. And I was like, Yeah, I’m going to, let’s see what happens. And I could you know, we, just the idea of play and curiosity and what emerges out of that sort of challenge to on both sides, I think, but as more of a collaborative play.

Nick Werber 26:12

It’s, you know, it’s serendipitous almost that you know, honest and being outward, it’s funny, I, my partner Jen was sitting in our kitchen and I was talking about this podcast a little bit. I said to her that I think I’m going to be a little edgier this time. And I’m just going to say what I feel and, you know, maybe it might turn some people off. I don’t know.

Candice Wu 26:37

Bring it on.

Nick Werber 26:41

Yeah exactly.

Candice Wu 26:42

Yeah, I want to play with that, the edginess? Cool. So do we have our intention? Or was that just more, was it? I didn’t know if I heard a specific intention from you or just a feeling you’d like to experience. Is that? Am I getting it right?

Nick Werber 27:02

It was a little bit nebulous. I think the intention is to share something, both between you and I, that provides a sense of fullness provides a sense of, you know, a gift that you can sit with and play with, even, you know, for a time after this conversation and then I’m including the third player in the room, you know, the audience that maybe they can experience something that they can play with and sit with them, digest for a few days that gives them a sense of fullness as well.

Candice Wu 27:43

Yes, thank you for clarifying that. That’s great.

Candice Wu 27:48

And just inviting people to play with, play with these topics and disagree with us, or find where there’s a new opening and you know, I’m just saying that out loud because that also helps me do that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Michael Picucci as well.

Nick Werber 28:11

Yeah.

Candice Wu 28:14

And just honoring him.

Nick Werber 28:19

He’s a major inspiration for everything I do. Funny, you know, on his website, when he was alive, it would, you know, you’d see Ph.D. psychologist but if you met him, he was very just quick to laugh with a very raspy voice, flamboyant gay man, who was a shaman and an energy worker, and you know, I think of him almost as the archetype of the Joker. You know, the one that kind of laughs and tells jokes but if you really think about what he’s saying deeply it’s, maybe the most honest, most real person in the room and a lot of ways. So there’s my little nod to Michael. Thank you, Michael.

Candice Wu 29:12

I wish I had the opportunity to meet him in person.

Candice Wu 29:18

So, intention, what comes up as you play with the concept or the idea of intention?

Nick Werber 29:34

What’s sitting with me about intention? You know, I have this community of healers and intuitive people that I love that are around me and both connected to them online and through some of the workshop spaces and communities here in Brooklyn that I’m in and everyone’s talking about intention. And I think the thing that for me, you know, I don’t think it’s touched on enough that I’d love. I think it’s helpful to acknowledge that, you know, intention is a process.

Nick Werber 30:11

When we set intentions, It’s not just that we write something down, and then we put it away in a shelf. And, you know, we hope sometime a year from now it’s going to end up on our doorstep.

Nick Werber 30:26

For me, and in my experience, and from my clients experience, it’s an active process. And one of the clearest ways that it’s very, really active is that I believe the moment you set an intention, what you’re really doing is saying, I’m ready to see what’s been standing in the way all along.

Nick Werber 30:48

You know, when you say, I want to find a relationship or I want to be making more money, it’s incredible how you know in the next few weeks or months people suddenly are playing in that shadow we stuff, those barriers that have been around for a really long time, that are directly related to these topics and, and I see that actually as a positive, it’s kind of, you know, whatever you want to call it. And, you know, universal intelligence or just the way the universe works is that it puts, it brings a barrier too and then it’s like, okay, now here’s your work. Now bring in your resources, you know who’s maybe, it’s a therapist or healer that you work with or just being a part of your community. You know, you have to resource yourself and actually go through it.

Nick Werber 31:44

For Christmas, I just got to my partner purchase me a sweater that says, “the only way around is through”

Candice Wu 31:54

Nice reminder…

Nick Werber 31:56

Yes, and that’s what this is. He set the intention to see the barrier and I think people don’t realize that happens. And so when they find the barriers, you know, when they come up against suddenly like, it just feels so hopeless and there’s so much doubt or I feel so much fear to go out and do that thing that I want to do, you start to, they might start to think, oh, maybe that’s a sign that it’s not really meant for me or you know, this isn’t going to happen or it’s not the right time. And it’s like no, like that, there it is, like you are now being given the exact wall you have to chip away at and your intentions on the other side of it.

Nick Werber 32:39

So I think what I want to, if there’s one thing people take away from this conversation, it’s that, to see intention as a process and to not be discouraged by the barriers, because that’s exactly what that processes, I believe meant to do is to bring up the barriers

Candice Wu 33:00

Yeah, I’m ready to see what’s been standing in the way all along. I love the words you expressed about that, it’s just such a nice statement. And we don’t always think about that exact position or approach when we’re creating something or like listening or creating something we want for ourselves.

Candice Wu 33:26

And I just think it’s such an important thing what you’re bringing up because, yes, so often, I’ve seen it in myself and clients everywhere. We find the resistance, the thing that scares us the most about it, and then we turn around and think, well, maybe that’s just not where we’re supposed to go because it’s scary or because it’s going to bring us some discomfort or let us look at something that we have not wanted to look at perhaps, and I see exactly what you’re saying too, in the way that barrier comes up and says, okay, you want this, you know, you want what’s behind this. You need this to come along. This barrier is the place where you’ve resisted or avoided, there’s an energy here and when you transmute this, when you transform or look through, go through it, as you say, instead of around it, that energy will come with you and support you in the end if you make it through. And we need it, we need it to go forward into the next thing. We need that expansiveness because that’s what we wanted to begin with. It’s going to bring us more. Thank you for bringing that forward.

Nick Werber 34:55

It’s almost like to give yourself credit. You know?

Candice Wu 34:58

Yes.

Nick Werber 34:59

There’s a reason you might not be making a million dollars a year, it’s because it takes hard, there’s a lot, there’s hard work, there are barriers there, there’s a lot to bust through. Now, if you come from a poor family, you’re leaving behind whole generations of a certain way of life. You know, it’s if you want that, if you want that intention, if you want to connect to that intention, there are some barriers you have to bust through and you know, that takes work. And so it makes sense that you maybe hadn’t connected to it yet. Again, you need the energy, you need the resources to be able to do that.

Candice Wu 35:41

Yeah, that just made me think, well, maybe that’s why people goal set instead of intention set? Because, I mean, maybe it also has a crossover, you know, even when we goal set there’s something that’s going to come up… but for people out there that are like FUI to intentions, like, I don’t want to deal with intentions or I’m not doing that. I’m giving yourself credit. Yeah, that it can be scary to set an intention because of the wave of things that might come in succession after that, on the pathway towards what you’re looking at.

Nick Werber 36:23

Exactly. And that’s why, you know, it’s also beautiful that if you set a really big intention and you’re not ready for it, you can stop.

Candice Wu 36:31

Yeah.

Nick Werber 36:32

You know?

Candice Wu 36:32

Yeah.

Nick Werber 36:32

You can take a pause.

Candice Wu 36:35

Yeah, I just love this. I have this image in my mind of a child, you know, I mean, I’ve been there standing on the edge of like a step and feeling like I want to jump down three steps. You know, I’ve done two. I’m going to jump three steps now. And I have this, I guess, maybe this is sort of archetypal image of an adult or someone older, saying just do it, go, just go. And like kind pushing you to go with their energy and with their encouragement. But there’s something incredibly beautiful about standing there on the edge and finding from within your own sense of I’m ready, or I’m ready to take the jump, and I don’t know what it’s going to bring doesn’t mean I’m ready and this is going to be easy. But that sort of leaning forward and being like, oh, maybe not, and kind of leaning back and playing at that edge, instead of just bypassing that and jumping without some sort of internal choice.

Candice Wu 37:52

And a friend mentioned to me this video, which I still haven’t seen, but I’ve been meaning to and I’ll link it to our show notes. I think this artist just recorded people at a diving board like high dive, and they were doing that, they would come to the edge. And some people would turn around and just never come back. And some people would like to stand there for an hour or something or like a period of time and go forward and back and maybe make the dive but it wasn’t really even about the dive I think. It’s just the process of us being human and being in that experience.

Nick Werber 38:36

And I think that I actually have seen that diving board video. So funny. YouTube is sort of my little guilty pleasure when I have downtime, so I’ve found it somehow. But to follow that metaphor a little bit, you know, I find with intention setting, we set an intention, or I set an intention and then it becomes, you know, okay, I started to receive it, you know, for instance, I had intentions about working with more and more people in group settings. And so I’m getting these group workshops are coming forward, they’re doing really well. And then it’s like, I recently, in the past year I was off or, in the past few months, I got the opportunity to work into this retreat in Mexico, which I’m sure we’ll talk a little bit more about, but you know, you can hit that moment of suddenly, Whoo, it’s like, it’s a much, it’s a bigger thing, it’s going to be more of a commitment, more of a commitment to the people coming. And then suddenly, it’s like the diving board’s too high. I don’t know about this one.

Candice Wu 39:44

Yeah, I asked way more of you.

Nick Werber 39:47

And I think those are, that’s really common that you get on a roll and it’s like, where’s your, what’s your tolerance and I’m not saying, you know, push through everything either. You know, I respect that tolerance level, that there’s, you know, that’s part of this work. That’s one of the barriers is fear, you know that you might come up against the fear, the fear of success, the fear of, you know, maybe speaking in front of a large audience or, you know, whatever your intentions include.

Candice Wu 40:18

Yeah, and this kind of loops me back to the beginning when you said that we can just get on a roll, or we can be in motion and wonder why we’re doing it or is this what we even wanted? And I think that that’s really challenging, it can be a really challenging place when the bigger thing comes, the bigger diving board or whatever it is, and you’re on the roll of the intention that you once had set. And there’s that place of, Okay, now it’s, I think that diving board is too high or this is really scary. This is a lot and it’s asking a lot of me. And when we feel into that place, it can sometimes mean this is no longer what I wanted or this is, wait, where have I gone? Is this what I wanted? And is it what I want now? And distinguishing that from the fear of the expansion and capacity, what it means to step forward and continue on? That can be a tricky place. Do you find that?

Nick Werber 41:34

Absolutely. When I hear you talk about that, I think we’re really connecting in some way to just the human condition, which is, you know, in some ways, we’re walking down a cave and there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, maybe, but we just have no idea what’s there and what’s ahead of us and there’s a lot of mystery so, absolutely, and, you know, there’s, I think this is also why it’s sometimes very attractive to listen to someone that says they know, that they, you know, they know the answers because we’re, you know, in a sea of mystery all the time being alive in this world, you know, and this doesn’t get you out of that process, but for me, I do think, you know, there’s kind of three ways that I think about working with intention.

Nick Werber 42:34

One is the setting it process, like the planting the seed, writing it down, which can be a really exciting and kind of expansive piece. Then, there’s what we’ve talked about, which is meeting the barriers, which is, can be so shocking how different it feels, it’s like, it was so expansive in the beginning now it’s so friction-filled, and that can kind of discourage people but there’s a piece in between and maybe all around, all of it, where I do think it’s nice to have some sort of practice where you’re connecting to your intentions on a regular basis. And you don’t even have to do it every day. But for me that writing it down and stepping on the sheets of paper, I do that once every other week with my intentions, to just see, you know, how am I feeling now? Is there still kind of a change or anything that needs to be shifted here? How am I sitting with it, just to kind of keep allowing my own intuition, my own body awareness to keep teaching me and showing me new things. But if you know even the most trained somatic healers that spend all their time with body awareness, which I really spend a lot of my time leaning on my body awareness even with my clients, that’s how a lot of my intuition comes through. You know, the body. It speaks in feeling, it’s not in words. And you know, even that, I think is a metaphor. It’s like, so much of the way life speaks to us is it’s the exception is when it’s extremely direct and says, go do this. But a lot of it is, you know, there are messages that are kind of in a gray area and it’s up to us to feel, what feels right for us.

Candice Wu 44:27

I didn’t really set intentions this year.

Nick Werber 44:38

You’re screwed. The way you said it was like you dropped a bomb.

Candice Wu 44:52

All this talk about intentions, and well, I think that as I’m reflecting on myself, that there just been different ways that I’ve worked with the process of intention and setting it and some processes feel more epic than others. And there are times in my life where it feels that it needs a very, almost like a ceremony to set an intention and to create the space for it. And other times of my life, it feels like a quieter process that’s, maybe this is also more along with the evolution of my own capacity and healing. That it feels almost like a part of me, a part of each moment, in fact, that if I had to put words as you eloquently said, you know, this is a feeling, this is an experience. But if I had to put words into the process, it might be something like, where am I right now and what am I feeling? And what do I want to lean into right now in the capacity of who I am like, the state of being that I’m in?

Candice Wu 46:17

And so the words I’d give it right now as far as intention, maybe it’s just going back to what I said in the beginning, surrender, and trust. And I’m not sure if that’s the intention, or if that’s just how I want to be right now, surrendering. And it’s very moment to moment.

Candice Wu 46:38

And I found that in the last couple of months, my astrologer said to me that it was Uranus and the chaos of Uranus, that it brings this unpredictability and changing your mind moment to moment even. What was in this moment can be totally the opposite the next or the next day or the next week, and I have felt that very much in the last couple of months. And so when I have planned too far ahead, for me, it will reveal itself. So I just felt like I’m just not going to waste my time doing that. And that’s very particular to me and my process. I don’t know if other people are relating to that. Maybe if you have the same birth chart as I do. But, surrendering to the moment and going deeper though, not just like to the topical, satisfaction of the moment, but something deeper of, a deeper movement towards the next movement. So in a way, it’s very unknown. It’s just this movement to the next. So yeah, there’s my confession about intention.

Nick Werber 48:00

Candice, I feel what you’re sharing about the way you’re working with intention just makes me think, you know, that is so you, and I think that’s one of the things I really admire about you is the way that you just freefall with spontaneity in so many areas of your life, and that’s brave, that’s awesome, and so it makes sense to me that you’d be saying that and I think in some ways, maybe we represent two different poles around on the subject, and people can take kind of little bits from either of us, because for me, it’s the spontaneity and the free fall. I get kind of lost and the planning really focuses me in this way that increases my effectiveness and, but of course, there are things that are lost.

Candice Wu 48:55

It’s beautiful.

Nick Werber 48:56

And you know, and spontaneity is, so who wouldn’t benefit from embracing a little bit more spontaneity, and I think you really are like a role model for that in a beautiful way.

Candice Wu 49:08

Thank you, Nick. It’s not that I don’t get lost sometimes too, though. But I also, I guess I’m okay with getting a little lost. Maybe that’s the thing.

Nick Werber 49:23

You have a high tolerance for it, maybe it’s a way of saying it.

Candice Wu 49:28

Maybe, but yes, I think you’re right. You know, there’s just a time for all different kinds of tools, and I think the processes you’re bringing up, they’re incredibly powerful, and they do work at times, work I mean, they will open things up and they will, if you follow through, if or I guess I should only speak for myself: when I feel through the resistance, I’ve landed in exactly where I want it to be in a way, but in a place, which I couldn’t even fathom! And on the other hand, I know it somewhere in my body, that’s what I wanted.

Candice Wu 50:10

So yeah, I think just putting up a menu of how we can all approach this thing called human experience, it’s really great. But let’s talk about family and lineage; and what you’re thinking about in terms of how that intersects with intention.

Nick Werber 50:38

Sure. So you know, for people that might not know, it’s really the focus of my practice is around how family and family history are at the root of so much of the barriers that we experience and you know, the way when I speak to this, I’m not really speaking to it from this kind of, maybe like a clinical perspective at it for me, it’s really at this kind of soul level that we’re born to these, this mother and father, you know we were, we might have had older siblings or younger siblings, or no siblings at all, and that becomes this very powerful template that follows us around. You know, the roles that we’ve played with our family, the types of people we were surrounded by, you know, I think I said an example is: if you had a parent that was a narcissist, and one of them was distant; and then… did you try to befriend the narcissist or did you reject them; and try to ally with the distant parent or, you know, the permutations are infinite. But it becomes this bedrock by which so much of what we’ve become, or how we emerge out of our family is so much a reflection, either an acceptance or rejection of where we come from, and why this, I think is relevant into intentions is, I think so many of us are probably aware on some level that our family has intentions too, and that those intentions were pushed on us. You know, and so the maybe the simplest one would be, go be a doctor, be a lawyer, but there it goes deeper than that, and then I’m actually very fortunate, and you know, and it’s actually complicated. When you don’t get this, it’s also confusing, too. But I would lean towards saying, I’m fortunate that I came from a family that the main message I got was just all we want for you is to be happy. I mean, that’s like I am very very thankful that I got that message, and there was not a push to be a certain thing. I didn’t have to be something.

Candice Wu 53:10

Wow!

Nick Werber 53:10

However —

Candice Wu 53:12

Yeah.

Nick Werber 53:13

Yeah, not to be glossed over.

Candice Wu 53:17

Yeah.

Nick Werber 53:17

I mean, that’s a huge deal. Yeah, it’s a big deal.

Candice Wu 53:22

But guess what’s the shadow side of it? What?

Nick Werber 53:24

Completely, yeah, completely shaped my life that I received that message.

Candice Wu 53:29

Yes.

Nick Werber 53:33

One of the shadow sides is, if you’re just supposed to be happy all the time, if that’s the goal, then you’re going to be falling short all the time.

Candice Wu 53:42

Yeah, I wonder —

Nick Werber 53:44

-the whole happiness at all times.

Candice Wu 53:45

All we want for you to is to be happy. Yeah, I didn’t know if it was literally happy, you know, and the pressure to be happy to come with that or if that just meant it was open, but it’s, yeah, sounding like that would create a lot of, we’re much more than just happy in our experience of life.

Nick Werber 54:12

And there’s depression in my family, which is, so obviously what that is a reaction.

Candice Wu 54:18

Now when you say that, yes.

Nick Werber 54:23

And so, you know, so then it becomes, well, what if I don’t, you know, it’s a little bit confusing. So it’s you know, it’s funny how these messages no matter what they are, even if it’s so simple and sounding so innocent… we just want you to be happy. It still gets confusing.

Candice Wu 54:41

And in a way, we could just turn it around and say, and maybe this is where you’re going but seeing that maybe the words were, are more, maybe the words are all I want us to be happy, coming from wherever that came from, but impressed upon you, it’s a totally different experience.

Nick Werber 55:09

Well, Candice, I think you’re nailing it right now, and we’re about to go very deep into my own, you know, constellation, but it’s yes, absolutely. It is, there’s a funny way and I think this can be extrapolated that the desires that our family have for us are so much, obviously a desire to have it, reflect on them in a certain way, and you know, absolutely the message of I just want you to be happy was, if you’re happy, then I can be happy and you know, maybe that will fix things for me and funny enough, me and my sibling were not very happy.

Candice Wu 55:56

That’s just a strange thing.

Candice Wu 56:03

Yeah.

Nick Werber 56:05

Yeah, that has to be earned, and it’s a process but I want to kind of bring it back slightly of our family has intentions for us, sometimes they’re very concrete, we’d like you to do a certain job, we’d like to be a certain type of person, and so when we’re setting our own intentions, that has to be included in our awareness about, you know, what is our intentions and what is our the intentions that we’re carrying, actually for someone else in a way, you know, if I’m happy then if I can do that, then finally maybe my mom can be happy.

Nick Werber 56:43

And so there’s a piece of that, that needs to be respected, and there’s also another part of intentions that I think is really important which is that anytime we change in a way that we are leaving this fear of where we come from, you know, you want to make a million dollars, and no one in your family ever did that, you are breaking through a barrier there that you know you are you’re part of this family consciousness and you’re leaving it, and so there is an element of guilt that comes with that. Whether you’re aware of it or not, that sometimes when we connect to our intentions and we’re creating change in our life, there’s a part of it where we are leaving something behind, you know, that’s change and in any form, you know, to connect to something new, you’re always in a way leaving something behind, and so that factors into our intention setting to —

Candice Wu 57:50

Absolutely!

Nick Werber 57:51

-where we come from, you know, what we emerged in within our family.

Candice Wu 57:58

Now, I feel this conversation is flowing two ways in my mind at the moment. Looking at our own intentions, and I love what you said about respecting the pieces that may connect with an inheritance or with other people in our life, or maybe given to us just respecting that versus you saying, no, that’s a bad intention then right? To give that up or change that, but just respecting, just honoring it, is just such a lovely approach you’re bringing.

Nick Werber 58:41

Well, and maybe the way of adding to that would be to say, you know, just because our parents wanted something for us, doesn’t mean it’s bad, and this starts to get into, you know, after working with many different people of different family backgrounds, different cultural backgrounds, you know, I feel very strongly that the family we’re born into is this incredible, it’s a wealth of information, it’s a huge teacher for all of us, and even if you disagree with the pieces of what they shared with you, there’s, you know, they still taught you how to tie your shoes and maybe cook. You know, there’s a million basic things that come across from a family that, you know, doesn’t matter how much you reject or how much you disagree with you. You’ve taken from them.

Candice Wu 59:46

Yeah. Absolutely, and there’s so much conversation in the world event, intention setting about getting to the why or understanding why you’re choosing that, and I think that’s very important and it’s part of what you’re bringing forward in this conversation, is what are the pieces that influence, the reason that you want this or you know, whether that’s personal family or other, any other systems you’re part of or if you believe in past lives, but here we’re speaking about family, and when you said just because parents wanted something for us, doesn’t mean it’s bad. I feel if we also get to the why of like, they wanted to be a doctor say, or they wanted you to just stay in the lines and not make a mess and not stick out, that there’s a why underneath that, and we can really get to that essential love that they wanted for us, and I can’t assume that’s for many people are all people, but it’s in my experience that lives underneath it, that there’s something underneath in the undercurrent of that more topical message that people have gotten, that says, well, we really just wanted you to be safe or we really just wanted you to be yourself or be happy or which, as we’re talking about comes with all sorts of stuff, but there’s something else underneath it that we can look at as well.

Nick Werber 1:01:41

You’re totally right, and I think safety is especially the big word and that brings up for me, you know, something that Suzi said, Suzi Tucker, our shared teacher, about this subject. You know, Suzi had been talking about the just ancestral component of Jewish culture across the world, and where you know how the history of persecution is affected people today, and you know, one of her, she always says these things are always like an aside, all the best, and then it’s like, whoa, I need to write that down, and what she would say is that in the shadow of the Holocaust and how many people were lost, it’s there’s many, obviously, Jewish families that push their children to become doctors, lawyers, bankers, and she put it, she said, you know, what’s the common thread line between so many of these career paths? It’s that there they are central, they are needed. Your society can’t work without them, and you know, when you think about the genocide, it’s like, how do you become necessary in the world? And I think that’s a really clear example of how ancestral history affects family on a really, you know, the macro affects the micro, but this is happening across all cultures and with all different kinds of histories that the past influences exactly what our mothers are telling us today.

Candice Wu 1:03:31

Absolutely, how do you become necessary in the world? That hits somewhere deep.

Candice Wu 1:03:43

So the thought I was going to say about looking into directions, like looking at the family in the past, and looking at what’s been carried through the generations and how that comes into our intentions and looking forward also in the other direction, well maybe it’s the same, but I had an experience where someone told me if you do want to have children, make sure you don’t do it because of wanting to give your children a different experience than you got, and I was like, yeah, of course, and then I was like, oh yeah, of course. Because actually, the thought that came next was, well, then what would the reason be?

Candice Wu 1:04:34

And there was this part of me that couldn’t think of what would be a good reason. Like, how do I verbalize what would be a good reason? How is it clear enough from the reactions of myself or from the reactions of my ancestry? And that was a little tricky, and what I got too was just for love and experiencing, allowing someone to come into life through me, but that they’re completely free to be however they want to be, and that was really hard to, in some ways, articulate it clear enough, you know, because wanting your child to be happy, there just can be so many shadow sides to that and unknowns unconscious parts. But even what I’m saying, I don’t know if there are some dark, like, unconscious parts, but I guess I’m tangenting a little bit because I also, as you know, Nick, I work with horses and I enjoy time with horses, and yet I struggle all the time with the fact that we keep them behind fences, and we keep them accessible to humans the way we want, but do they want that, and it would be some time as a whole for that to shift, but if we really believed in the freedom of another being, then you know, how do we see, and treat them, and think about that? And so I guess looping back to intention when it comes to bringing life in, maybe that does apply too to the things that we create, that are not just human life or animal life or caretaking for others, but what we’re creating as far as what we’re birthing.

Nick Werber 1:06:38

I think there’s so much metaphor and in birth and creation, and I think in many ways, you know, the creative pursuits are kind of a process, a feminine process and a lot of ways that birthing, that creation, that I really, I do appreciate what you said shared, and I just wanted to acknowledge that I think you are not alone, and I can imagine there are many people listening right now that would resonate with that about having children in order to change, somehow change the way, you know, give them an experience you didn’t have, and there’s a piece of me that just wants to say, I don’t want to, I don’t think it’s totally wrong to come into that, to come into it that way, but I think it’s so important to have the awareness that you know.

Nick Werber 1:07:39

There’s a cartoon about this that I love, they’re kind of these candy hearts, like the ones that we give out on Valentine’s Day, but their characters and one of them just has on the candy heart section, it says we will not let you get fucked up, and then the mother side says: our parents fucked us up, and then the little baby heart just says: “a new kind of fucked up”.

Candice Wu 1:08:00

Oh! I love that! Please send me that. we are going to link that here too.

Nick Werber 1:08:05

It’s the clearest, like you get it immediately.

Candice Wu 1:08:11

Yeah.

Nick Werber 1:08:12

And this is a huge thing, I’m sitting with right now where I am talking about with my partner about, you know, when we might have children and what I’m bringing them into the world, why I’m doing that, what is the intention behind that is a big thing, and I do get wrapped up sometimes and all the things I would do differently, and then I catch myself saying, you know, I actually was raised in a way that I think my parents were very focused on doing it differently, and that is, it has its own shortcomings in a funny way.

Candice Wu 1:08:51

I really appreciate you bringing that up and holding space for that not being wrong, and I do feel that too, and when we think that things like that are wrong or like that we shouldn’t do that, it can compel us, yes to find something different but it can also be a way that we don’t acknowledge, that we actually have those true desires inside of us and the more we put a blanket over that, saying, okay, let’s like, let’s not, let’s resist that and let’s not use that intention. Sometimes that really backfires and it just lives anyway.

Candice Wu 1:09:47

Circling back to the beginning of our conversation, you know, where you said, I think these feelings I’m having are going to emerge no matter what, and there’s such a power to just say acknowledging it, and respecting that and seeing where it has an effect if you can and claiming it. So it has a place instead of just this like, lingering thing somewhere in the unconscious that does pass forward and lives itself out is the little baby heart.

Candice Wu 1:10:29

So do you want to talk about one more topic, Nick? I know we just like laid out so many. So good, but we kind of are leaning into resistance, what we resist persists, but what are you wanting to talk about now?

Nick Werber 1:10:49

You know, I think again, it just all feels like a time of year to touch on these guys, but I would love to talk about the phenomenon of black sheep and fan. Because I think this is the time of year where all that stuff comes right back up and there are so many people that were the black sheep that are, you know, still in recovery from their family gathering or have you know, stayed home and held certain boundaries and, you know, had to suffer watching all the family photos go by on their Facebook feed or whatever; and I just, I think something that is just so important to me is a real respect for the phenomenon of black sheep, how they emerge and that they are such an important part of the evolution of our society and our culture, and so that’s what comes up for me, so then, I’ve, and then now I feel like I just want to put you on the spot. Are you the black sheep Candice, of your family?

Candice Wu 1:11:59

I saw your post that you are not the black sheep. And I was like, am I?

Nick Werber 1:12:04

I know.

Candice Wu 1:12:07

Yeah, that was great by the way. I really appreciate that, so am I the black sheep?

Nick Werber 1:12:13

Yeah, I can speak more to that too, but yes, I was not the black sheep in my family which a lot of people are surprised to hear that. But the spotlight was taken by another, but yeah, so yeah, you said did you say yes, you are —

Candice Wu 1:12:28

I was thinking about it. It depends on how you define black sheep, so would you define it for the people listening and for me?

Nick Werber 1:12:44

That’s a, it’s a great, yeah. You know, I think if the black sheep is characterized by being someone that feels very strongly out of place, sometimes people that feel that the black sheep and their family feel like their parents are their parents, in some way.

Candice Wu 1:13:06

Yeah.

Nick Werber 1:13:06

You know, how could I possibly be their child and they are often the carrier and the target of all the shame of the family. It’s like there’s this sense of, you know, its parents might have a tendency to almost project all their shortcomings on to the child that didn’t do what they told them or wasn’t enough or should have been smarter or different in some way, which by the way, children are always a reflection of their parents and so for a parent to somehow pointed to a child and say you’re the problem is just very short-sided. But so it’s I think it’s yeah, it’s often they feel a certain level of shame, black sheep, as they get older, might spend very little time with their family because they might become kind of tired of it all and I, you know, I think the kind of classic was like television show thing of, you know, family dinner and the black sheep eat the fastest, tries to get out of it, gets away from the table as quickly as possible, barely talks, if they do, it’s very brief. You know, kind of, it’s almost like black sheep I think have to be very protective of themselves because they can be such target within families.

Candice Wu 1:14:48

Yes, that was me. That’s like almost everything you named. I was like, oh, yeah, check, that’s been my experience.

Candice Wu 1:15:00

At certain points in my life, good chunks of my life definitely felt out of place. Like, how could these be my parents, but then I also saw ways in which I was just like them, a lot of shame, and very much directed towards me even it trickled into my siblings, how could it not, you know, the same directed to me.

Candice Wu 1:15:28

I was known for like, stirring the pot and making things worse; and that’s by virtue of me expressing my feelings, you know, saying what’s going on and what I feel and it was a lot of things my family wasn’t ready to look at, and I, so desperately needed them to and needed them to acknowledge because, for me, it felt like survival, and not having enough resource for myself to survive the emotions that were going on and the trauma that was passed down many years that hadn’t been dealt with, that hadn’t been integrated.

Candice Wu 1:16:15

Yeah, many moments of like running away from the dinner table, having stuffed my food in my mouth, and crying. Those are really rough memories, you know, and I’ve worked on them so many times, and this is still a little tender place. But I can say now that I’m in the best time of connection with my family after doing so much work, inner work and embodied work, constellations work, there’s still more of course, but I actually enjoy my family and they enjoy me now and they’ve also looked at a lot, and so the same isn’t really is as strong as like a strong of a tidal wave, and just maybe exists in little pockets now, but as far as like the family system, it seems, from where I’m standing.

Candice Wu 1:17:22

So yeah, I don’t feel like I’m the black sheep anymore, but I once was, and I know that you had shared Bert Hellinger’s idea of black sheep, think on your Instagram and your social media; and many people have shared that it’s really beautiful because speaking to the black sheep as the change, the healing bringing the evolution of the family system forward is so real to me too, and at times, that’s felt like too much of a responsibility because it was and other times, it felt like an honor, and of course my place… it makes sense… like I wanted to do that but so you’re not the black sheep?

Nick Werber 1:18:12

You know, it’s so funny, this always happens is that as I connect to something over and over again, it deepens, and I just, as I’m hearing you, I feel like, I have actually felt I really connected to something about me that’s a little bit more than maybe what I had shared, which is yes, traditionally in my family, there’s the obvious black sheep is my younger brother and he just was a huge handful in a lot of ways and really offended so much of the family in so many ways, but what I would say is, you know, I said this: when we started that he kind of took the role for me because I feel if he wasn’t there then it would have been me, and I always kind of wished I could have been as disruptive as him. But then I think I had this awareness of how it would just kind of destroy the family to have another kid that is rebelling like that and so I felt conscious of that of like, I don’t have a place to be the rebel anymore.

Nick Werber 1:19:26

But I will say this, is what I connected to as I was talking is that I’m actually, truly, from a family of black sheep. My father was the black sheep of his family and my mother was the black sheep of her family, and maybe that’s not absolutely 100% clear from my mother. There’s like a little bit of a gray area there but for my father, it absolutely was, and so it’s funny, it’s like I’m the child of, I’m like, second-generation black sheep in some way which has a huge role in so much of who I am because I wasn’t raised with religion. I’m the first person and both sides of my family to not be raised with religion at all; and there are a million other traditions that I was maybe not part of for partly just because of that, because there are so many traditions connected to religion.

Nick Werber 1:20:24

So, there’s a funny, I think I realized I’m broadening the perspective a little bit. I’m kind of in the sphere of the black sheep, but maybe on the micro-level, it was more clear that my brother was the big one. But can I actually, that Bert Hellinger quote, may I just read it?

Candice Wu 1:20:44

Please do.

Nick Werber 1:20:45

I think it really captures what I feel about black sheep and I think so many people when they hear it, have a feeling to add. So I’ll just read it. I brought it up because I think I had a feeling we’d be talking about it, so, “The so-called black sheep of the family are, in fact, seekers of deliberation roads for the family tree. Those members of the tree who do not adapt to the rules or traditions of the family system, those who are constantly seeking to revolutionize beliefs, going in contrast to roads marked by family traditions, those criticize, tried and even rejected those by general, they are called to release the tree of repetitive stories that frustrate entire generations. The black sheep, those who do not adapt, those who scream rebel, repair, detoxify and create a new blooming branch, countless unfulfilled desires, unfulfilled dreams, frustrated talents of our ancestors manifest themselves in the black sheep’s rebellion looking to take place. The family tree by inertia will want to continue to maintain the castrating and toxic course of its trunk which makes its task, the black sheeps task, difficult and conflicting that no one makes you doubt. Take care of your rarity as the most precious flower of your tree. You are the dream of all your ancestors.” And that’s by Bert Hellinger.

Nick Werber 1:21:01

So lovely.

Nick Werber 1:22:29

Yeah, you know, it just for me, it captures so many things, but I just, I do feel that black sheep carve new roads for families, you know, without black sheep, families can just keep repeating over and over again; and it’s the black sheep that kind of forced them to face things. Even if the family that sits around the “black sheep” doesn’t receive anything, doesn’t take anything in, you know that the children of the black sheep are never going to be the same. They’re always going to experience traditions and family in a different way. So it’s, I think black sheep are just so intertwined with evolution and as he says, you are the dream of your ancestors and I really believe that our ancestors, it is their dream that we evolve and become more of who we are and more in tune with, what fulfills us and what serves others in the world and so that’s, I really, I can’t say enough of how I put black sheep on a pedestal, I really have a lot of respect for that role and families. So thank you, Candice, for playing that role and coming through it.

Candice Wu 1:24:08

Oh my god! No, I’m starting to think about black sheep in a broader context too, because originally when you said are you the black sheep and I had read your post referring to your brother, I started to think about black sheep in this sort of identified patient kind of way. You know, that language comes from the world of psychology and counseling. Like when a family says, we need help because so and so has a problem in our family, they could name one person as the one with the problem and yeah, I often think of that person is maybe the black sheep and that they have a lot of, they can typically have a lot of symptoms or maybe there’s alcoholism or there’s something that becomes very severe that the family cannot continue to look away; and I wouldn’t say that was me.

Candice Wu 1:25:14

I mean, the worst thing I ever did was, and it’s kind of bad, when I was 16, I got a speeding ticket for 51 over the speed limit. Yeah, it’s a lot. I don’t know, yeah, it was crazy. I never drove that way again but that’s probably the worst that I ever drove and so I couldn’t relate to it in terms of being a certain kind of like, severe set of symptoms or experiencing rebellion in a way that is very like oppositional or something like that but I think that’s the way I’m seeing now can be helpful for anyone that doesn’t perhaps relate to that kind of experience too, you know, and as you’re talking, Nick, that there are parts of us that feel like black sheep, there might be a part of us that we can connect with — has felt like it’s been black sheep, so to say. Maybe that’s just shame, you know, where we feel shame or —

Nick Werber 1:26:29

Well, I love that, it’s that perhaps the part of us that doesn’t feel like it belongs is actually the part that is bringing something to the world. You know, we don’t belong because something that we are, it’s not here yet, it’s not accepted yet but actually, if we can find acceptance with it in ourselves and just and share it and be it, then we actually are giving something to the world we’re hoping it, you know, by including more.

Candice Wu 1:27:07

Yeah, so we can find our inner black sheep, and parts of us that don’t feel like they belong, those are the most essential to the entire wave of evolution and the dreams of the ancestors of all kinds.

Nick Werber 1:27:27

Wow, it’s like where newness emerges from. Wow.

Candice Wu 1:27:37

That’s nice, Nick, nice. So nice place to close, to feel complete.

Nick Werber 1:27:43

I think there’s no way that we could switch to something else —

Candice Wu 1:27:44

Yeah, we’re done here. We are done, except I would love for you to just briefly talk about your retreat. Yeah, it’s coming out February 14 through the 18th…

Nick Werber 1:28:02

…through the 19th actually. Yeah, so, you know, I know you’ve done many retreats, Candice and I feel very strongly that you know, Family Constellations are beautiful one on one, they’re beautiful in a group workshop setting. But I believe that they take on their most powerful, most resourceful state when they’re in a retreat setting, there’s something about gathering with the group and being in that container for multiple days that just the energy just builds and I see it in my own facilitation. I mean, these the retreat work, I think that’s beautiful, and so, —

Candice Wu 1:28:55

Yeah, absolutely.

Nick Werber 1:28:56

Yeah and you know, I knew, and I know this because we met at the intensive, which is a form of a retreat, which was a super powerful and I think meeting you as a part of what made that so powerful for me

Candice Wu 1:29:11

Same here. Yeah, it’s huge

Nick Werber 1:29:16

So, yeah, so this retreat, it starts we’re going to be in Mazunte, Mexico, which is Southern Mexico, and it’s overlooking the Pacific Ocean, and it’s just a really beautiful place. Again, you, it’s like you can walk five minutes to the water, and we’ll be doing Family Constellations work and various forms of Shadow Work. The stuff that, you know, it really goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of this call of, you know, when you set these intentions, you will meet certain barriers and at that point, you know, it’s important to call in your resources. So all the work we’re doing is literally to meet you at that point is, you know, resources that help people actually do the work of chipping away and doing the integration and processing with these barriers. So we’ll get there on Friday and be doing that work on this beautiful terrace that is kind of open-air and I’m just, I’m super excited about it because these groups come together and it’s just people leave as incredible friends and I still see from my past retreats, you know, people basically communicating with each other that I know had met at some of the work that we have been doing.

Candice Wu 1:30:44

That’s awesome. Yeah.

Nick Werber 1:30:45

Yeah.

Candice Wu 1:30:46

It sounds beautiful, and what a great time to you know, if you live in the Midwest or somewhere called to get out into a little bit of warmth and get the fire on the inside.

Nick Werber 1:31:01

That’s a big part of it. Yeah, that was a big part of why we reschedule it, you know, there’s going to be really beautiful deep work going on. But there is a lot of space built in to just go chill on the beach, which is, you know, just as important, and the weather I think is like, you know, the mid–80s basically, winter.

Candice Wu 1:31:28

So good.

Nick Werber 1:31:29

Sounds pretty good to me.

Candice Wu 1:31:31

Awesome. Where can people find that retreat, Nick?

Nick Werber 1:31:37

So if you go to my website, which is just NickNWerber.com, you can go there or my Instagram is @nwerber (instagram.com/nwerber), and then all of its actually being hosted through Maha Rose, which is this incredible organization that’s based in Brooklyn, and that’s of Maha Rose’s website, www.maharose.com is another place where you can read up about it.

Candice Wu 1:32:06

Thank you so much, Nick. This was fun, and do you feel like we, you? Yeah. How did we do on our intentions?

Nick Werber 1:32:19

I think we did great, and I really am. I think we did well, because I really, that it was funny that moment where you said, I think we have to close there was actually the moment where I had felt a sense of, oh, wow, I actually this is, it’s the exact kind of subject that I will spend the next few weeks thinking about of. You know, all those places where I don’t feel I belong, of which there are many, you know, is that possible? That’s just something that’s emerging that the world can I respect it in that way. So I think there is a fullness that I feel when I just connect to that right now, so I think we did well and, you know.

Candice Wu 1:33:04

Absolutely, yeah, to each their own of their experience and yeah, I’ll be thinking about that too, and it’s kind of like a twist on something I’ve been doing for some time. But the words are so poignant now like all the ways I feel that I don’t belong now or maybe in the past, yeah.

Nick Werber 1:33:33

Yeah, well, it’s so, you know, obviously, the reflex of way to experience that is it’s just the opposite. I don’t belong and there must be something wrong with me and all the stuff that we talked about. So it definitely is turning an idea on its head in a way that you know, I don’t know about you, but the moment I connect with it, I just, I feel that sense of my body relaxes and I feel clearer and you know, for me, it’s all the signals that there’s —

Candice Wu 1:34:03

Yeah, same here. I feel that playfulness that I was wanting about it, to approach it with playfulness. It’s a fun process to think about it in this way and I learned so much. Thank you, Nick.

Nick Werber 1:34:23

Thank you, Candice. I feel like we can do this again.

Candice Wu 1:34:26

We still have to talk about all sorts of things like letting — like, kind of

Candice Wu 1:34:33

I love that topic, that was the ones that kept me up and what we resist persists. Like how just looking at that in different ways and through the body. So yeah, a little teaser for our next podcast whenever that comes, but let’s do it.

Nick Werber 1:34:52

The perfect cliffhanger for now.

Candice Wu 1:34:55

Thank you, Nick. Okay, definitely see you next time and just want to say one more thing, actually, thank you so much for offering the music for the Embody Podcast, the intro and outro music. I still use it. It’s still on every single podcast and you created it. It’s so lovely.

Nick Werber 1:35:17

I know. I love it.

Candice Wu 1:35:18

Thank you.

Nick Werber 1:35:20

Thank you. Thank you very much. I’m so glad.

Candice Wu 1:35:26

I’m so grateful for Nick’s presence out in the world, and what he’s doing in support of other people, and in growing the work of Family Constellations in his unique way. It’s really beautiful to be challenged by his work and to learn and grow from it and also to exchange in the ways that we do as friends and as colleagues. Thank you so much, Nick, and thank you all out there for listening. I hope this does give you something to nibble on as we close today. Be sure to check out Nick’s website if you’re interested in his work or the retreat coming up, and his Instagram where he shares a lot of his writing, and again, his website is nicknwerber.com, and you can find all of the links at the show notes related to this episode at candice.com/nickparttwo.

Candice Wu 1:36:24

And as we send each other forward into this new year 2020, this is already been quite a long podcast, so I’m just going to pretty much close it out from here and send you off with of course Nick’s lovely intro outro music if you’re interested in staying connected, you can feel free to sign up for my newsletter at candice.com/embody where I share all about the podcast, and the experientials, and meditations that come out as well as events, self-love notes, and updates about me. Thanks so much and see you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

As a gift, Nick Werber has offered one of his favorite audio meditations on the subject of consenting to people and the present moment as they are. The meditation is originally written by German psychologist, Bert Hellinger, and as read by Dr. Michael Picucci. Dr. Picucci was one of Nick’s greatest mentors before he passed away, and Nick spent a year recording several of his meditations along with the audio version of his book, Vocalizing Source Energy. The content of the meditation gets at universal and enduring truth that our perception of the world around us shapes the world around us. What an honor to have him here on the podcast, sharing this experience with all of you. Though I’ve never met either one of you, Michael and Bert Hellinger, thank you.

Michael Picucci 1:11

This is Michael Picucci. I’m going to recite my own adaptation of a brief guided meditation, originally written by German psychologist, Bert Hellinger. The name of this meditation is Consenting. It is intended to be a deep and meaningful experience.

Before doing so, may I suggest you find a private, comfortable place for yourself, and then slowly find a sense of embodiment and an awareness of your body, perhaps take a few conscious breaths just noticing the natural in and out of the breath. Give yourself a few minutes to notice that we have a live body as well as a mind and let this awareness be an accompaniment to the meditation. As I share the meditation, feel free to let the words wash over you as you are listening to them.

This particular guided meditation is intended to have its own special effects on many levels and dimensions of your experience. Feel free to listen to it as often as it can be helpful to you in finding a better ground of being.

I begin, consenting, as soon as I have consented to other persons as they are, they can feel at ease. As soon as I have consented to a situation, as it is, it changes. It reveals to me new possibilities for action. On an inward journey, I may experience that an obstacle stands in my way. Often, it is something that I have not yet consented to, for example, a pain or loss that I have not gotten over, was something that must be resolved. There is something else to which I must agree, the time that I still need. As soon as I have agreed that I need more time, time leaves me in peace. I may move on.

I experienced something similar with my pain. What happens when I agree to it? When I no longer try to get rid of it? When I take it close to my heart and allow it to calm down in me? When I permit it to take the lead? Perhaps, this pain wants to take me to something that I have lost sight of, for example, another person, maybe this pain guides me back to something that is waiting for recognition and for a solution. Therefore, I stay with this pain as it is the whole time.

With this pain, something recollects itself inside of me. Is it that I pause on my inward journey, in the moment, exactly here? Or is it that this pain is leading me on to a decisive step because I have agreed to it? It takes me by the hand and leads me further and deeper. When I simply surrender, what happens to my pain? My pain, too, calm down and finds its peace. It closes its eyes as if its work is done.

As soon as I agree to everything, as it is, I gain precious time. As I stay in peace with me, something in me and outside of me grows as if of its own accord. These inner journeys are movements of life, I have agreed to everything as it is, I feel free to engage in the essential aspects of life. I may move on in a decisive manner.

These inward journeys of movements of life, what I have agreed to everything as it is, I feel free to engage in the essential aspects of life. I may move on in a decisive manner.

The forces of life first collect inside, only then, do they turn outside. Insights too, a first perceived inside. After that, they set something in motion outside. On our inward journeys, we consent everything as it is, first to ourselves and to our situation, to life as it is, and to the lives of other people. In this way, our inward journeys continue outside as well.

Our journeys to source energy, open other space for us inside. Rilke calls this space, the inner space of the world. In this space, we relate to life in a more comprehensive way, we see it differently, and we become different. After this, we return to our own space, changed, and we turn toward our everyday lives, changed. What is the nature of this change? We are in its service, a line with enough love.

Candice Wu 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Embody Podcast. This is Candice Wu. And today I have the fabulous honor of interviewing a friend and colleague of mine, Brent Garcia.

Candice Wu 0:12

Brent is an elite body mechanic and he came to the traditional East Asian medicine and Bodywork tradition because he needed relief from an old Achilles tendon injury. And after receiving Acupuncture and massage treatments, he was able to function at a much higher level than he had for the previous 10 years. And that motivated him to study East traditional healing arts including Acupuncture, herbal medicine, Asian Bodywork, and Tai Chi, as well as Reiki.

Candice Wu 0:42

In this conversation, Brent and I talked about reintroducing presence into daily life, the dance of the healer and the inner healer, in a client or patient, Western medicine and traditional Eastern medicine working in tandem, as well as the experience of being a man admitting pain and asking for help, the courage to see your own shame and name it and how he has changed his entire life and transformed in his 40s.

Candice Wu 1:08

When I have gone to see Brent for treatments, as the Licensed Acupuncturist and Reiki practitioner, I’ve left feeling completely renewed and restored. Even just being in his energy is healing because he has such a firm yet gentle approach that just makes me feel like I’m completely supported with non-judgment, and I’m held in a healing space.

Candice Wu 1:32

Brent in 2015, graduated from the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine in Chicago, with a Masters of Science in Traditional Oriental Medicine. And he received his massage training from Pacific College as well.

Candice Wu 1:46

So now, as a licensed practitioner, he continues to study anything that will help him be better and more effective as a healer for his clients. And I witnessed that firsthand.

Candice Wu 1:55

So I’m thrilled to have Brent on the show today, we have such a lovely dynamic, when we talk, we motivate each other. We support each other in our practices and keep each other in check as far as supporting ourselves.

Candice Wu 2:08

You can find out more information about Brent at the end of this episode, as well as on the show notes at CandiceWu.com/podcast.

Candice Wu 2:16

And before we jump into the conversation with Brent, I want to mention today that this episode is brought to you by donations from my listeners. Thank you so much!

Candice Wu 2:27

I recently started a Patreon page as I’ve received many offerings of support so that people can continue to be part of this community, to give me feedback, and to receive some lovely gifts from me through the Patreon page.

Candice Wu 2:41

I’ve designed some personalized healing meditations for those who want to donate monthly. And even a one-time donation or as little as $1 a month would continue to nourish the Embody Podcast to continue to have a life and cover the costs of the production.

Candice Wu 2:59

If the Embody Podcast inspired you, helped or spoken to you in some way, it would mean the world to me if you would show your support through just a small donation. And you can find that on my page at CandiceWu.com/patreon. Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart!

Candice Wu 3:16

And without further ado, let’s jump into our conversation with Brent.

Candice Wu 3:21

I am really happy to be here with my friend and Acupuncturist, Brent Garcia. He also is a Traditional Asian medicine practitioner and Massage Therapist. And, the thing I love about him the most is that he can hold lightness and darkness, he can hold the hard stuff, the challenging stuff, the gritty, the nitty-gritty, and also play and be light, and have fun and connect the two. And he has often helped me do that in myself.

Candice Wu 3:56

This beautiful balance of masculine and feminine in his personality and in his practice. I am thrilled to have you here today, Brent.

Brent Garcia 4:05

I am thrilled to be here. Thanks so much, Candice.

Candice Wu 4:10

So, because I keep messing up exactly what you do. Would you share with everyone, from your perspective what you do?

Brent Garcia 4:19

That’s a great question. I practice Acupuncture. And I’m also a Myofascial Trigger Point Therapist, and I’m also a Licensed Massage Therapist. And I also integrate Thai Bodywork on the table into my work. And on occasion, I’m a Reiki Master practitioner. So, I’ll include that if a client wants that. So basically, what I do is help people without putting them in a box. In other words, like I’m a mechanic, they come to me and say, “Hey, Brent, here’s what I’m dealing with.” And I pull out the appropriate tool to help them.

Brent Garcia 5:06

So some of my treatments, have both Acupuncture and Bodywork. Some are just Bodywork, and some are only Acupuncture. So, I really try my best to help meet the person, wherever they are, with whatever modality is going to fit them best.

Candice Wu 5:26

You have such a beautiful concoction of modalities. And I love the way you put it that you’re a mechanic. It’s so accessible.

Brent Garcia 5:34

Yeah. Which, to be honest, is what I try to do. I try to not make what I do in the medicine that I practice, I try to not make it some crazy big idea. I try to make it accessible and real so that when people come to receive a treatment, they are met right where they are. And I get to be with them and help them without trying to talk down to them or be over them in any way. I really focus on that in myself and in my practice. So yeah, that’s a great choice of words there.

Candice Wu 6:11

Yeah. And earlier, you and I were just talking and chatting. And you mentioned that you were starting to reintroduce presence. And that feels like what you’re talking about here what you do with your clients.

Brent Garcia 6:22

Yeah, in a very real way. Sometimes, just being focused on someone, purely, solely focused on someone, and blocking out any other distractions, can be healing in and of itself. So from the moment I’m meeting a client, whether it’s a new client or a returning one, I try my best. I’m not perfect, but I try my best, when I meet them to be 100% focused on them. Because I believe that starts the process.

Candice Wu 6:22

I am so with you on that. For me, it’s a process of feeling that my presence is completely there. And it’s enough, at least for me, it may not be enough for them. But that I know, I’m enough in myself, that seems to work wonder, it’s like simple.

Brent Garcia 6:43

It’s simple. And in my opinion, that’s all we can do as practitioners and healers.

Candice Wu 6:50

It’s so humble too, what you’re saying.

Brent Garcia 6:55

Exactly. This entire medicine and my entire practice is an experience in humbling myself, you know, in a very real but and very authentic and powerful way. It’s humbling in a powerful way not like degrading, it’s, yeah, this is a humbling, very humbling line of work I chose.

Candice Wu 7:02

Yes, it is. And speaking of your choice, how did you get here as an Acupuncturist plus all the other modalities that you use? And also just how did you get here as you, as who you are today?

Brent Garcia 7:10

Okay great. Yeah, I’ll answer like how I got turned on to Acupuncture, was it’s how I quit smoking. I was a packet A cigarette smoker for a while. I can’t remember now exact years, but, I smoked a pack a day. And, I was at the point where it was starting to get annoying. I was starting to notice my clothing was smelling to where I noticed it. And if I notice it on myself then other people absolutely notice it.

Brent Garcia 7:23

The seeds were starting to be planted for me to be done with being a smoker. And I used to be a real estate broker. And in the middle of February, when there is about half a foot of snow on the ground, and I was in the teens, I was waiting for a showing. And it was so cold and windy outside that I had to keep switching the gloved hand and smoking with the non-gloved hand. So, I keep switching and I literally said out loud, “This is stupid!” Literally. I was on the corner of Lincoln and Kenmore in Lincoln Park in Chicago, and I threw the cigarette down and on the ground — which, yeah, I know it’s littering but whatever — and I looked across the street and there was a sign in the office that said, “Acupuncture for Smoking Cessation.”

Candice Wu 7:50

You’re kidding!

Brent Garcia 7:50

I can’t make this up. I really can’t. And so, I walked across the street and I walked in and said, “I want that.”

Brent Garcia 7:56

And I got set up. It took me seven treatments. And that was over 10 years ago.

Candice Wu 8:00

Wow!

Brent Garcia 8:00

So that’s what put Acupuncture on my radar. How did I actually decide to study the medicine was, I was in a course. And I’ve heard this before. You know, I’m 46 years old. So like, over, maybe over 20 years ago, I think I first heard this concept from Tony Robbins. But I don’t even know if he made this up. But it’s the old rocking chair test, right?

Brent Garcia 8:13

You’re eighty years old, you’re on your porch, you’re in your rocking chair, you’re enjoying the evening, and you’re looking back on your life.

Brent Garcia 8:18

Are you doing what you would be proud of when you’re eight years old? And in September of 2009 that I heard that, and the clear as a bell answer was, “No”. And I needed something else.

Brent Garcia 8:26

So I went to an open house at the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine here in Chicago. I went to an open house for a massage. I was like, “Oh, I’ll just become a Massage Therapist.

Candice Wu 8:31

Ah, yeah.

Brent Garcia 8:31

I can sell real estate and I can be a Massage Therapist and kind of integrate that. That would be a way to slowly transition out of being a real estate broker. And it was a two-hour open house. We showed up. Sar O’Bannon ran it. She is a phenomenal Shiatsu practitioner here in Chicago-Land, we practiced, we talked about the massage school. And then, one of the admissions fellows came in and said, “You know, I know you’re here for a massage, but this is also an Acupuncture school. So I’m going to give you five minutes of the Acupuncture part. And in that five minutes, I was like, ”That is what I want to do.”

Brent Garcia 8:49

And so I enrolled in January of 2010 and started studying.

Candice Wu 8:53

And you’ve practiced and studied the Japanese version. Is that right?

Brent Garcia 8:55

Yes, I started to integrate Japanese Acupuncture after graduation. I really like it.

Candice Wu 8:57

What makes it so interesting for you? Or what do you like about it?

Brent Garcia 8:59

For me, it’s a dance. It’s traditional TCM, Traditional Chinese Medicine as packaged. And as taught in many of the schools, is kind of a prescriptive thing, you come in with a headache, I try to figure out the pattern that caused you to have a headache. And then with that pattern, there’s a prescription that you do. Just insert the needles in those points, and go about your business.

Brent Garcia 9:12

Japanese Acupuncture does a lot more in my view with palpation and with a kind of real-time response from the patient. So, I will do some very, by the way, Japanese Acupuncture tends to be thinner needles and shallower insertion, I’m really generalizing here, but you get the idea.

Brent Garcia 9:22

And so I will try to, I will take the pulses on the forearms by the wrist, and decide which organ system needs to be boosted up or tonified. Do a couple of points while holding the needle and then recheck the pulses, and see if a change was made.

Brent Garcia 9:33

Also, I use a little bit of abdominal palpation with it. And oftentimes, on the table, I can get a change in the abdomen, just with one or two needles.

Brent Garcia 9:37

So, I get instant feedback on how the treatments going. And patients get instant feedback for themselves like, “Oh, wow, I do feel different. When you press that point in my abdomen, it was really painful, like an eight out of 10. Now it’s like a 4 out of 10.”

Candice Wu 9:53

Yeah.

Brent Garcia 9:53

So, I like that it’s a dance. It’s constantly re-checking in with the patient, and not using a prescription per se. It’s really just, “Where do I need to go now? What do I need to balance now?”

Candice Wu 9:57

I love that. And I find that your work is so gentle but powerful in that way that you’re describing. Because you’re doing that dance and because you’re listening and seeing and feeling with your patient.

Brent Garcia 10:01

That’s what I try to do.

Candice Wu 10:01

Yeah, where do you see the limits of your work in terms of — I don’t know if this is specifically for you or maybe for Acupuncture, in general. But I think that’s a question that people often ask is, “Where’s the threshold? What can Acupuncture support? And where is it that I go to my MD?”

Brent Garcia 14:33

Those are the many-layered answers like you’d mentioned, I try to hold the space for both the light and the dark, your words. And we could kind of change the words a little bit and say: I like to hold the space between a western and an eastern mind. I try to hold the space to see what can be done with Acupuncture.

Brent Garcia 14:50

And also, by the way, how’s your vitamin D intake or how is your magnesium intake or supplementing that way.

Brent Garcia 14:58

I’m all for imaging, like X-Rays, CAT scans, MRIs, because I think that the patients that I treat, need that. And I feel better about what I do when they have that.

Brent Garcia 15:11

So, I have told people point-blank, you need to go see your MD. If there’s something that’s not being affected or not being changed by the treatment, or if there’s a certain sign that or symptom that that comes into the office, and it’s like, we need you to go, see somebody about that.

Brent Garcia 15:30

Let me give you an example.

Brent Garcia 15:32

A woman that came in with kind of a blister on her middle finger knuckle on the back of her hand. And she was coming in for treatment to get, to be honest, I can’t remember what she came in. But it wasn’t for that. And she’s like, “You know, since I’m here, let me show you this.” And she showed it to me and a medical doctor who also practices Acupuncture. And both of us kind of were concerned. By the look of it, it didn’t look like it was just something that you would get. It almost looked like a spider bite.

Brent Garcia 16:08

And so both of us were like, “You don’t need treatment right now. You need to go to the emergency room and get that checked out.”

Candice Wu 16:13

Yeah.

Brent Garcia 16:13

She did. It was not anything particularly serious. But it could have been. And based on the conversation I had with the doctor after she had gone to the ER after the patient had gone to the emergency room. I was like, you know, that could have been, you know, a Fascial Necrosis, or some sort of literally, some sort of spider bite where venom continues to travel up the arm over a period of minutes. And it’s serious. So, did I answer your question?

Candice Wu 16:37

Yeah, I think so. I think you’re saying, which makes sense. It’s case by case.

Brent Garcia 16:42

Yes.

Candice Wu 16:42

And you have no problem about just saying, “Go to your MD” and also that it’s complimentary, and that maybe the best. Well, it’s quite nice when people are going to both. In that way, there’s this dance of everyone and what a person might need.

Brent Garcia 16:59

Absolutely. There, there are times when you need Western medicine, and there, in my opinion, are times when you need, for lack of a better term, Eastern medicine. And if you have a serious medical emergency, you need to see a Western doc. And if you aren’t sleeping well, you probably need to come to see a practitioner like myself, because we have better methods for sleep that are more gentle and more lasting, in my opinion, than just prescribing a drug for it. So it’s really finding what each modality does well. And then —

Candice Wu 17:35

Yeah.

Brent Garcia 17:35

Using that for the best safety of the patient.

Candice Wu 17:39

And that makes complete sense. I want to switch gears a little and you haven’t mentioned working with men, yet. And I know that that’s a big part of your soul. Can you talk more about that?

Brent Garcia 17:50

I think in general, our society is set up to not allow men to be vulnerable in pain, and not at their best. And it’s looked upon in our society as a weakness to admit that. You know, I’m speaking — by the way, Candice, I’m speaking 100% in general, but I think it lays the foundation for what I’m about, and what my beliefs are, and what my standard is. But our society isn’t set up to allow men to admit weakness. And I have suffered from that, personally. I think that’s why this touches my heart so much. I think this is why this goes so deep is because I have suffered from that myself.

Brent Garcia 18:29

I’ve tried to squash feelings and squash pain with drugs and alcohol. I’ve tried to isolate myself. I’ve, you know, I used to be, I used to eat a pint of ice cream a night for years. And the last thing I ever wanted to do was to ask for help and to admit to other people that I needed help, and that I wasn’t feeling good. And then I didn’t know how to get out of the rut I was in.

Brent Garcia 19:00

And where that really started to strike me was that I wouldn’t — So, when I finally got a little bit of willingness to ask for help, it would be from women. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But I want to be a resource for men to come to, to have safety, to have openness, to be able to be vulnerable in their whatever they’re dealing with. Because I think it’s a needed thing in our society. And I think that not only do men benefit that from that, but women benefit from having men be that way.

Candice Wu 19:34

Absolutely. Because of the balance of what men feel. They’re allowed to say, do, and experience. That doesn’t really benefit women at all, and, or other genders that I’m not naming but it’s for the benefit of everybody that, that openness and permission is there because it’s human.

Brent Garcia 19:52

Yes.

Candice Wu 19:53

So have you found a man to ask help from? If I’m getting you right? Okay. Yes.

Brent Garcia 19:58

Yeah.

Candice Wu 19:58

Who has been your mentor or someone that you’ve been able to receive that sort of support from?

Brent Garcia 20:06

Yeah, it’s a great question. And based on agreement, I have to keep their anonymity but I can tell you that I have a really good friend in New Mexico, a really good friend in Colorado, actually two, really good friends in Colorado. And also I am part of a men’s mastery call which we get on — there are six men across the nation that are — we get on a call twice a month, and share, hold each other accountable, keep the hold of the space for other people, for other men to share the yuck of what the yuckiness of what’s going on in their lives. So, I have been blessed in finding that, and it’s made an enormous difference in my life.

Candice Wu 20:54

And that’s huge.

Brent Garcia 20:56

Yeah.

Candice Wu 20:57

What do you feel is, or has been the challenge in being vulnerable or opening up or sharing what you’re feeling?

Brent Garcia 21:04

For me, it’s, I think it’s because of what I said in that, it is not socially accepted. And I have, like, I mentioned sometime earlier on this call, I am certainly not perfect, and nor do I claim to be. And so I still struggle with that unwillingness to show who I really am. Because I don’t want to be ridiculed. And I don’t want to be put down. And I don’t want to be shown as weak. So, it’s a very real struggle that’s there. The good news is I’m conscious of it. And I’m aware of it, and I am in conversations with other men about that. But yeah, it still is there for me.

Brent Garcia 21:45

The other thing I would add to this is on the flip side, the alternative is puffery or machismo, or, you know, striding, like physically, when physically walking is actually striding. And I don’t find that to be authentic either. So the unwillingness to be vulnerable, in my opinion, is inauthentic, as is the puffery. So like, all things, the middle way, the middle ground is where the action is, the middle ground is where the juices, and I do my best to get that message to men.

Candice Wu 22:17

And it sounds like part of the message is the middle ground of being in your emotions, being in your experience openly, and feeling strong because of it within it. Even if you’re in tears, even if you’re breaking down. I’m just getting that from you, from who you are. But it sounds like that’s also what you’re saying.

Brent Garcia 22:37

Yeah, in a very real way.

Candice Wu 22:39

So I’m curious with all the work that you do for the community and for your patience. I know that you do your own work, as you’ve said already, but I’m curious what really makes you feel alive for yourself. What restores you?

Brent Garcia 22:56

Two things come to mind as far as restoring me, which I guess in effect makes me feel alive.

Brent Garcia 23:01

I have really taken on being a good sleeper. It’s really, but it’s very profound. I’ve taken on being a good sleeper for the longest time I would, I was a night owl, you know, I drank a lot of alcohol, I did a lot of drugs, you know, it’s going back years now, like over 10 years now. But, I used to stay up till three, stay up till four, and then go to work night after night after night. And there was, of course, the effects of drugs and alcohol that made me less than optimal. But, my sleep quality was just in the toilet.

Brent Garcia 23:38

So ever since I started focusing more on my sleep, which is really as simple as getting into bed, trying it now again, there’s no, I’m not perfect, but like trying to get to bed by 11 o’clock at the latest and at least lying down and reading and then waking up in a natural hour to the best of my ability, that has helped restore me so that when I’m walking through life, when I’m at my practice, when I’m at the gym, when I’m talking with people, when I’m being part of the community, I’m alive.

Brent Garcia 24:13

The other thing has happened relatively recently is, I kind of really jumped into strength training about four years ago. And, you know, I was a soccer player in college. And, you know, as I said, I’m 46. So when I played soccer in college, it was the early to mid–90s. And back then, we were actually actively told not to strength train, because you would “become unflexible”, which, now, if you look at any professional soccer player, they absolutely strength train, every single one of them.

Brent Garcia 24:45

But, I looked down upon strength train, I just thought they’re a bunch of meatheads. And then, I started working in a gym. Treating people, you know, I would do massage at first and then when I became Acupuncturist, I would also treat them with Acupuncture. But I also started doing a little bit of personal training and started to teach some classes, some strength training classes, and I started training myself and I’m talking like, you know, barbell dumbbell training. And that is, I didn’t realize how many benefits I would get from strength training. Just physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, it was just amazing.

Brent Garcia 25:23

Let me tell you a quick story.

Candice Wu 25:24

Please.

Brent Garcia 25:25

This was going when I first started training, I was probably about four years ago. I was in a strength training class, and I was really, really, really angry and hurt before the class. To be honest, I can’t remember why. But I was just out of sorts. And I had the thought, I’ll just go to the gym and just be in my own little world in this class of like 10 other guys. I’ll just, you know, focus, this will be perfect, I’ll just stay in my anger. And I’ll just ignore everyone else.

Brent Garcia 25:56

And when I did that, I almost got run over by a Prowler and I almost dropped the weight on my head, because someone was walking by and I wasn’t paying attention.

Candice Wu 26:05

Oh, my goodness!

Brent Garcia 26:07

And I got really clear that: “Hey, Brent, when you strength train, you have to be present. You can’t be thinking about patients, you can’t be thinking about your dog or your cat or the crappy thing that happened on the way to the gym, or the thing you have to do when you leave the gym, you have to be present at the gym with every single rep. Otherwise, you could get really hurt.”

Brent Garcia 26:36

And it’s awesome. That’s awesome. That was something I didn’t expect strength training was going to provide. It’s amazing.

Candice Wu 26:43

That’s a really powerful story.

Brent Garcia 26:45

My Achilles tendon was very happy. At the last second, jumped out of the way because there was a little sled foot that was going right at my Achilles tendon.

Candice Wu 26:51

Oh, my goodness.

Brent Garcia 26:52

Yeah.

Candice Wu 26:54

The literally hard lessons.

Brent Garcia 26:58

So strength training restores me.

Candice Wu 27:00

So I’m curious, what has been most on your mind or your heart lately?

Brent Garcia 27:06

I am at the age where, when I double my age, that doubles to 92.

Brent Garcia 27:11

So lately, I’ve become very aware of the fact that at least according to our current actuarial tables, right? At least according to statistics, I am well over, not well over, but I am over halfway in my life, provided nothing happens, right?

Brent Garcia 27:30

If I die a natural, actuarial table life, I’m over halfway. And what I’ve been aware of is, I haven’t been really producing what I know I’m capable of, as far as material things, I guess you’d say.

Brent Garcia 27:45

You know, I had mentioned earlier that, you know, I still struggle with a friend and a mentor who called it toxic comparison. You know, not just comparing myself to someone, but every time I compare myself to someone I come up short, and it’s like a toxic ooze that just kind of takes over my thinking.

Candice Wu 28:02

Yeah, I know that one.

Brent Garcia 28:02

So I have become aware that as much as I’ve try to be present, as much as I try to be the best version of myself, as much as I try to exude everything that I am to the best of my ability, it oftentimes, in my brain, I still come up short, and have been for a long period of time. Especially when I get into that toxic comparison with my peers.

Candice Wu 28:28

Yeah, that can be the hardest, at times like to see who’s around you. And to make that comparison, when our journeys are completely different.

Brent Garcia 28:37

Completely. And I, you know, when I’m aware of that fact, I realized that I had free will. And I had a choice, but like, this is my path. I’m walking my path, and it looks this way because it’s mine. And your path looks your way because it’s yours. And, everyone else’s path looks their ways, because it’s theirs, you know?

Candice Wu 29:00

Absolutely. I mean, I get the same way. It’s like looking at what people have done, and what maybe they receive. I can start to feel like I should be doing that. Or, why aren’t I? And then, if I actually go back into myself, there’s a way that I tell myself, keep your head down in a good way, for me. Don’t do that looking out. Because it’s always taking me the wrong direction. And when I go back inward —

Brent Garcia 29:24

Yeah. So when you say: “Keep your head down”, you mean go back inward?

Candice Wu 29:28

I do. I mean, take my eyes off of what’s out there, around me and turn it inward, into my heart, into my soul and work with the feeling that comes up. It usually for me, it’s like, “I’m not enough, I don’t have enough or I am not enough,” then just checking in with what I need to do with that. What do I need for that? And then what do I need to do for me and in my soul? Like, what is my soul telling me? The next step is in my life or what to do? Because it’s probably not, “Go make that program just like that person did and go for it!” Because it’s just never that.

Brent Garcia 30:01

It’s not. I totally identify with everything you said, and I’ve experienced that. You know, just to kind of extend with that. For me, what helps is, sometimes, if, like, I have to use your words, like put my head down, I have to go inward, and I have to check out with what’s really going on. But what’s been so valuable in having that be the seed of something greater, in something authentic for me and most importantly, like growth, is I have to bring it to other people and check in with them and like, “Yo, this is what’s going on. This is where I’m at.”

Brent Garcia 30:39

And that is, going back to what I said earlier that, that is what I never did. When I was younger all the way to maybe even like my late 20s, early 30s is, I thought I had to do it all myself. I thought I had to do it all alone. I had to figure it out. And if I didn’t figure it out, that meant I wasn’t enough. So when I get caught in that, it’s so valuable to go in. And I think it’s a vital step to go inward and to feel that and to check that out and to get it. And, I then have to bring it to other people. Bring it to people who have the capacity and the willingness, most importantly, to listen and provide feedback and provide response and guide and whatever.

Brent Garcia 31:23

Have you found that?

Candice Wu 31:24

Absolutely. I think that I’ve been in my life, somebody that has had strong friendship connections. I’m so grateful for that across my life. And so I’m used to, you know, maybe it’s also a genderized thing, right? But, I am quite used to being able to reach out to my friends.

Candice Wu 31:44

What you’re speaking to, that was a challenge for me, was to reach out to my colleagues, is to be vulnerable enough to share with my colleagues that this is going on or that I’m insecure or anxious about whatever it is, versus my friends because it’s great. I know my friends are in my corner. And I can do that. And they were supportive, and we go deeper with each other. But to do it with my colleagues felt much scarier. It was like, I’m actually going to expose parts of me that I didn’t want to. I don’t want anyone to see. And yet I’m sure they can all see it. Especially because most of my colleagues are therapists. How was I going to hide that? Come on.

Brent Garcia 32:24

You’re the last to know. Everyone around is like, “Yeah.”

Candice Wu 32:28

Obviously.

Brent Garcia 32:30

I’m glad you finally admitted that to yourself. That’s really good for you.

Candice Wu 32:33

I know. So yeah, it’s so hard for us to be vulnerable. And I guess, I can’t speak for everybody, but it has been for me. And yeah, I completely resonate with that reaching out, being important, and being able to receive than what’s there and debunking the idea that something’s going to happen that’s scary. Because every time I did that, it was, I guess, it’s probably a 99% of the time, it was met up with compassion or support, and help. And I grew from it. So the bad and scary things didn’t happen.

Brent Garcia 33:13

Yes. And this is a perfect time to bring it up, in my opinion, because this goes back to an earlier question about like, how did I get here? Like, how did I become an Acupuncturist? Yes, but how did I also get here?

Brent Garcia 33:25

For seven years, I was part of a process group. We met weekly for two and a half hours, and there were anywhere, you know, there was some fluctuation. So there was it was anywhere from like, three other people to maybe four or five or six other people. And it was moderated by a really awesome mentor of mine in a very real way. And we got an opportunity to check-in, which is, you know, where it kind of equals group therapy, except all the other participants when we were done checking in, all the other participants got an opportunity to respond.

Brent Garcia 34:04

And I remember when I went to a therapist, this therapist and I went to her for like, three sessions. And each time, she had said, “I really think that you should join the group.”

Brent Garcia 34:13

And, when she first described the group I was terrified of they get to respond to the filth that I’m thinking about myself or the bad things that I’m thinking about, they get to respond.

Brent Garcia 34:28

And, I have to tell you, seven, you know, it was 10 years ago, 7 years in that group and then I’ve seen the therapist off and on for the last three year. That work has been so powerful, because from the moment you walk in for the very first time, you are being vulnerable, just by being there, and then to have others respond, and to have that space for me to bring whatever is going on in the moment. You know, that was the beauty of, is that, in the moment, there were things that would come up, anger or shame or fear, or well, it’s always shame, but like anger, fear, or joy, or whatever. And there was an opportunity to share that and to have a response from the other participants, and from the facilitator made a huge difference in my life.

Brent Garcia 35:20

I am unrecognizable from 10 years ago, because of many things. And that’s one big thing.

Candice Wu 35:26

That’s incredible. What kind of feedback did you get or response did you get that has stuck with you?

Brent Garcia 35:33

I’ll answer that. Before I answer that in that group. And that process work, there is a distinction between response and feedback and advice, feedback and advice are like, this is what you know, I heard what you’re saying you should do this, the response was often what I was experiencing.

Brent Garcia 35:47

So, if we were in the group together, you would check in about whatever you want to check in about. And then my response would be what my process was what’s going on for me, of course, it’s going to have some overlap, and it’s going to touch on what you said. But the value was the response of what I’m feeling in the moment. And what I’m experiencing at the moment.

Candice Wu 36:14

It’s such a shift of gears, right? To be able to say, I feel this when you say, when you’re talking about this, I’m feeling -. And, we’re so used to doing something different.

Brent Garcia 36:25

Yep.

Candice Wu 36:26

Skipping ahead or not talking about our own reaction.

Brent Garcia 36:29

Yup, exactly. Talking about the other person not talking about what’s going on with me, we’re not set up to do that.

Candice Wu 36:36

And that’s like the primary thing of relating.

Brent Garcia 36:39

I need to pause for a second to just really get the impact of what you just said, Yes. That is foundational to relating to people.

Candice Wu 36:47

And I’m saying that precisely, even for myself, because I always have to remind myself to go back to how am I feeling, when someone’s saying that and not focusing it completely on them, in a way that’s almost icky, I guess. I don’t have the words to describe it. But even with my clients, to know what I’m feeling, whether or not to express it but to stay with that and relate to what they’re saying instead of something else.

Brent Garcia 40:16

Exactly. And to wrap into the other question, like what kind of response stuck with me? I mean, you know, as you can imagine, weekly for seven years, I got a lot of response. And I had a lot of response. But I think one of the main things was the concept and the disease pattern around shame and how pervasive that is. And how untalked about it is in general society, although it is being talked about more, I would say in the last five or six years.

Brent Garcia 40:53

I’ve heard a lot of TED Talks and etc, of dealing with and addressing shame as one of the foundational, maybe even the foundational piece that we deal with as human beings, and the hiding of that shame.

Candice Wu 41:10

Shame over shame.

Brent Garcia 41:11

That’s another common thread, is I would so often say, you know, “I’m experiencing a massive shame hit right now. And, I’m feeling a lot of shame that I feel ashamed. The only phrase that comes to mind is double whammy, like a double whammy. Did you get hit twice? It’s like a one-two punch.

Candice Wu 41:33

Well, and to be able to break through that, to speak to it, sounds like it took a lot of courage. And at least I know, for me, it can take a lot.

Brent Garcia 41:43

It does. And my willingness to be courageous in that arena and others is my capacity to do that is way higher now. Because of this work, and you know, tons of other things that I’ve done, my searching path has led me down many different roads, it’s been really awesome.

Candice Wu 42:03

I’m so glad.

Candice Wu 42:04

I feel this whole world just opened up in me when you were talking about shame as a disease pattern. And I started thinking about in Somatic Experiencing how the physiology of shame is spoken about. And it’s the same physiology like the way the body is experienced what’s happening in the body as defeat, head down. I didn’t, I couldn’t do it.

Candice Wu 42:30

And most of the time, instinctually, the “I couldn’t do it” is about something, a time when they may have needed to protect themselves, or speak to something. And we may not know when that time was at this point, because it lives in us and accumulates.

Candice Wu 42:51

And in my work, it accumulates over the ancestry as well. So it can just be like, maybe quadruple whammy times 10. I don’t know. But what I got excited about Brent was the disease pattern of shame and in your specific modalities, how you see that in the body. And what you notice happens or what meridians are shutting down? That’s my words. I don’t know if you would use that. But what do you see there?

Brent Garcia 43:26

I think it’s more of an intuitive process in that when it’s happening on the table, I think that’s one of my gifts.

Brent Garcia 43:34

My gift is the ability to be with someone else’s shame and to not judge it. And it doesn’t live like, “Oh, that’s the — you know that is showing up in the kidney meridian.”

Brent Garcia 43:48

For me, it’s the whole person at that moment, is experiencing it. And through the grace that I received from whatever path I walked down to get to this moment, and the work that I have done around shame and the mentors and guides that I’ve had around that sort of work, that separates me.

Brent Garcia 44:15

I think it’s my ability to be with their shame, that allows them to feel comfortable and safe, and to do whatever healing process they need to do. And it doesn’t, you know, in my experience that doesn’t live as, I don’t particularly look at it like as a meridian problem or something in the channels that need to be shunned or tonified or dredged or moved, or whatever. It’s really just holding the space for them to be exactly who they are to. For them to be the light and the dark. And for me to be able to continue to do the work that allows them to heal themselves.

Candice Wu 45:02

So you and I do the exact same thing, but you just have needles.

Brent Garcia 45:07

Yup.

Candice Wu 45:07

Because I almost felt like when you said, “I don’t look at it like the kidney meridian.” I almost felt like thank goodness, thank you. Because I feel that when I work with you, when I’m receiving Acupuncture from you, and working with that with you, wow.

Brent Garcia 45:25

Yeah.

Candice Wu 45:25

So I want to change, shift gears again.

Brent Garcia 45:29

Sure.

Candice Wu 45:29

And go for a little lightning round, a little fun here. I’m just going to ask a couple of questions. And whatever comes to mind or heart, feel free to share what’s right for you.

Brent Garcia 45:41

Will do. And I do need to say that this whole thing has been fun. So this is just fun. Fun, it’s, yeah, got it. Okay, I’m ready.

Candice Wu 45:53

I’ve had so much fun already. And I’ve also felt very humbled by everything you’ve shared about yourself and the work you do and how you see life. So thank you.

Brent Garcia 46:05

You’re welcome. Thanks for creating the space. You’re welcome.

Candice Wu 46:10

Okay, here we go. What is the strangest dream you’ve ever had?

Brent Garcia 46:15

I was crawling out of a cave that had that moss all over. It was sunlight. So it was like, it wasn’t a pure cave. And there were spiders, these white spiders everywhere. And I had absolutely no fear. It was more just like a kind of spirit.

Candice Wu 46:38

Oh, wow. And just as an extension, if you could ask your dream or if you were to ask your dream, a question. What would you ask your dream now?

Brent Garcia 46:49

What am I missing that would allow me to accept who and where and what I am right now?

Candice Wu 46:57

That’s deep. Yeah.

Brent Garcia 47:00

I don’t know. I don’t know how to go any.

Candice Wu 47:05

You know, I love that stuff. That’s like where my whole body is like excited right now.

Brent Garcia 47:13

I just, for some reason, like Bill Murray just came to mind. I don’t even know like why that’s there, but that’s a little insight into my brain is Bill Murray.

Brent Garcia 47:24

Yeah.

Candice Wu 47:24

Yeah.

Candice Wu 47:27

Well, and I am curious what your dream would say?

Brent Garcia 47:29

Yeah. Me too.

Candice Wu 47:30

Maybe that’s not the question for now. But for you. Yeah.

Brent Garcia 47:33

Yeah. I’ll have to get back to that, I to know.

Candice Wu 47:35

Yeah, please.

Candice Wu 47:37

What do you bring with you everywhere you go.

Brent Garcia 47:40

My guide tube. It’s the silver guide tube that I use sometimes with, for my needles. It’s, you know, oftentimes there are plastic guide tubes that come with a pack of needles in Japanese. You use a kind of like a, either silver or some other non-reactive metal as your guide tube. And I tend to carry that with me everywhere.

Candice Wu 48:05

Yes, I’ve seen that. It’s really nice.

Candice Wu 48:08

Okay, so you’re a good sleeper now. Most days it sounds, but if you didn’t have to sleep, what would you do with the extra time?

Brent Garcia 48:16

I’d read.

Candice Wu 48:18

What would you read?

Brent Garcia 48:19

I’d read two things. Well, it’s really two sets of things, which is really just an extension of what I read now. Three things.

Brent Garcia 48:27

The first thing is any sort of my East Asian medicine books and any new books that I have on order. I love reading books, and the ones that are at mind right now are the War of Art and Turning Pro by Steven Pressfield.

Candice Wu 48:47

Oh, yes.

Brent Garcia 48:48

Yeah. And books like that. You know, I love picking up Eckhart Tolle. In fact, I picked up New Earth the last couple of days, including this morning and just the wisdom.

Candice Wu 49:02

There’s so much —

Brent Garcia 49:03

How to live. Yeah, it’s —

Candice Wu 49:04

Yeah.

Brent Garcia 49:06

Every time I pick it up, it’s — I cannot believe. Like, I have the passage underlined. And I still have no recollection of ever reading it because it’s so present and so, what’s the word where it’s helpful right now? It’s so timely to wherever I’m at.

Candice Wu 49:29

It’s like it speaks over and over again.

Brent Garcia 49:33

Correct, right.

Candice Wu 49:34

You know, that’s a really great description of that, I have that exact experience. I think with that book, but also with other books that where you read it, and it’s like, “Oh, that’s fresh and exactly relevant now. Did I read that before? I thought I did.”

Brent Garcia 49:50

I must have because that’s my handwriting. But, I don’t remember.

Candice Wu 49:56

Right.

Brent Garcia 49:57

And then the third type of books I love, like R.A Salvatore fantasy novels and my wife just bought for my birthday, bought me three Ed McBain, like pulp fiction novels. They’re like 87th precinct and hard-boiled detectives, like I love that stuff, too. So like, Pulp Fiction.

Candice Wu 50:21

Oh, yeah. That’s great. Okay, here’s possibly the last question. What is a controversial opinion you have?

Brent Garcia 50:32

That there actually are stupid questions. Like, I personally do not believe there are no stupid questions. I do believe there are stupid questions.

Candice Wu 50:46

Tell me more. Because I feel that actually now that you’re saying.

Brent Garcia 50:51

It stems from a couple of things. One, it stems from, for a brief period of time I taught High School Chemistry. And my wife, who used to teach High School English for 10 years, and I have had this conversation where there will, you know, once you’re getting to High School, these kids are savvy, and they asked questions, just to mess with the class. And they ask questions just to waste time, sometimes not all the time. But like, there will be that, you know, the stereotypical class clown who will ask questions, and like, that’s a stupid question.

Candice Wu 51:28

Oh, I know that very well. I know that so well. Yes.

Brent Garcia 51:33

You’re not actually forwarding or actually authentically, inquiring into something. You’re just trying to mess with me. Which is cool. I respect that. But it’s a stupid question.

Candice Wu 51:45

When a question is actually a manipulation, or when it’s meant to do something else?

Brent Garcia 51:50

Yes. And you know, every class I’ve ever been in, every seminar I’ve ever taken, it’s all in on any sort of CEU credits. Okay. There are no stupid questions. You know, and they always throw in if you have this question. Someone else probably does, too. So, ask your dumb question.

Candice Wu 52:09

Great. If you want to manipulate the class, and they kind of wreck it, somebody else wants to too.

Brent Garcia 52:17

Join in!

Candice Wu 52:18

Which is probably true, you know, the energy in the room?

Brent Garcia 52:22

Yeah. I don’t know if that’s like, really, like, controversial or anything but opinion, but like, yeah, it’s a standout. I don’t know.

Candice Wu 52:31

I think it — Yeah. Controversial or not, it’s something people say, and I actually agree with you. I don’t believe that that’s true. That there are no stupid questions.

Brent Garcia 52:43

Yeah. You know, and in the words of Bill Hicks, I’ll say, you know, I don’t always choose wisely, but I’m committed.

Candice Wu 52:52

Thank you.

Candice Wu 52:53

Well, Brent, this is really fun. The whole thing as we talked about, is there anything else that is coming to you now, any last thoughts? Anything you’d like to share with everyone listening?

Brent Garcia 53:04

You, the listener are perfect, just the way you are. And there are people like Candice and myself, that do our best to create spaces that allow you to be that way?

Candice Wu 53:24

Yes, thank you.

Brent Garcia 53:26

You’re welcome. Thank you,

Candice Wu 53:30

Brent, where can everyone find you? And by the way, your Healing Crisis video is really fun to watch on your website.

Brent Garcia 53:37

You know, my website is the best way I try to keep that as like the portal, you know, the hub. So it’s BrentGarcia.com. And I say, because, you know, that’s my name, Brent Garcia. So, therefore, that’s my website, BrentGarcia.com. So there it is. That’s the easiest way. You can email me at Brent@BrentGarcia.com.

Brent Garcia 54:06

There you go.

Candice Wu 54:06

So easy.

Brent Garcia 54:08

I try to keep it simple.

Candice Wu 54:09

It is what it is here. Oh, well, thank you so much. I learned so much. I felt so much. I’ve had a lot of fun with you, as always. And I would love to have you on the show again. I just have 50 million questions. And we’ve already got about an hour or over. So thank you, Brent.

Brent Garcia 54:29

You’re welcome, Candice, thank you for your space and thank you for your creation. This is amazing stuff and your work is amazing. See you down the road.

Candice Wu 54:43

I want to thank Brent so much for joining me on the show. I learned so much from him and continue to as we are both on our journeys.

Candice Wu 54:51

Brent combines traditional and modern systems of East Asian medicine with bodywork and Trigger Point therapy, providing custom treatments to eliminate pain and cultivate well being in his patients. His private practices in Chicago at two locations. And you can find all that information as well as book a treatment on his website at www.BrentGarcia.com.

Candice Wu 55:13

Before you leave, I’d like to invite you to listen to more interviews, meditations, and explorations on CandiceWu.com/podcast. And you can also subscribe to my weekly newsletter and become a member of the Embodied Community at CandiceWu.com/embody where you can get lots of free resources on Embodiment, self-love, healing, meditations as well as information about my retreats, workshops, private sessions, and other offerings. Thank you so much for listening and see you next time on the Embody Podcast.