Candice Wu 0:00

This episode is with psychologist Bianka Hardin, who is a friend, colleague, and previous supervisor. In this episode, Bianka shares her journey into developing more safety and enjoyment in her life, as well as exploring personal agency, how we can get in our own way, and the body-centered and relational model of NARM which is the NeuroAffective Relational Model.

Candice Wu 0:25

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, embodied healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:38

My name is Candice Wu and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations, and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 0:59

This episode is supported by the Embodied Healing Group call which is a once a month call where you can get support for soul, body, heart, and spirit. This is a transformative way to both receive healing support at a lower cost than individual sessions, gain the support of others in a loving compassionate experience, as well as support the podcast.

Candice Wu 1:22

In each online call you’ll receive transformative tools in moving through your emotions, tuning into your intuition, and developing your empowerment in your body wisdom, as well as clearing limiting beliefs through your entire being, and opening up your soul, body, and heart to what you want to explore and what you desire in your life. I love these groups because we just open up to the magic of your being, to show us what’s needed. You can find all the information for this on Patreon at CandiceWu.com/patreon.

Candice Wu 1:56

So this is really fun, to have Bianka on the show. Bianka really taught me how to live the experience of self-care and to be congruent with the words that I say about self-care, in my life and in my workplace.

Candice Wu 2:11

So I worked with Bianka at Centered Therapy Chicago for about two and a half years as a holistic psychotherapist, and this was just a wonderful place for me to develop my early skills in combining all the different modalities of what I was offering. So, it’s always a little off the beaten path and on the fringe of healing work and psychotherapy. And Bianka just gave me all this trust for me to find my voice, combining family constellations, combining somatic therapies, and indigenous practices as well as Yoga and Ayurveda and just all the different ways that I connected energetically and spiritually. So I really wanted to have her on the show, and talk about her and celebrate her as well.

Candice Wu 3:01

She’s a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of Centered Therapy Chicago, and she has the mission to help children, adolescents, and adults improve their mental health and quality of life. And she also presents in the community on issues related to parenting, child abuse prevention, self-care, mindfulness, trauma stewardship, and cultural issues. She enjoys working with clients who are in the mental health field, who could benefit from getting additional support in the important work they’re doing, who perhaps are struggling with vicarious trauma or burnout, and who are interested in receiving case consultation or support in their professional development.

Candice Wu 3:40

As we jump into this interview, I want to share that Bianka has an experiential of NARM, the NeuroAffective Relational Model coming up this week and that is connected with this episode. And you can find her entire episode and the experiential at CandiceWu.com/bianka. Okay, so without further ado, let’s welcome Bianka to the show.

Candice Wu 4:08

Bianca, it’s wonderful to have you on the show today. I wanted to just start out with our unique and synchronous story of coming into each other’s lives at different points. I think our first point of contact was you walking into my Yoga class where your son goes to school –

Bianka Hardin 4:26

Yes!

Candice Wu 4:27

And then I babysat for your son. And that was –

Bianka Hardin 4:30

Yes.

Candice Wu 4:30

We got to know your family –

Candice Wu 4:33

and then maybe we had some distance for some time, and later I found out you were, well, at that time, I found out you were a professor at faculty member at the Chicago School.

Bianka Hardin 4:33

Yeah

Bianka Hardin 4:45

Right.

Candice Wu 4:45

And then I was studying psychology, and when I got out of school, we just happen to have tea and you just happen to need another therapist in your practice. And I was like, me!

Candice Wu 5:00

I would love this. And the timing was just so beautiful.

Bianka Hardin 5:04

Yeah.

Candice Wu 5:05

Yeah. So just wanted to share these pieces of our story and how I know you, and how I’ve come to love and appreciate you as a friend, as a colleague, and as a supervisor at Centered Therapy Chicago, where you have your private practice as a psychologist, and one of the biggest things of my connection with you is loving myself and appreciating myself by treating myself with care. And you know, that’s a big thing that you speak to. So welcome to the show, Bianka.

Bianka Hardin 5:39

Thank you. Well, I wanted to add one more piece to our puzzle.

Candice Wu 5:43

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 5:45

I don’t know if you remember. But I started attending meditation classes at Meditate Chicago –

Candice Wu 5:52

Oh yeah.

Bianka Hardin 5:53

I went for a class and I ran into you there –

Candice Wu 5:56

That’s right!

Bianka Hardin 5:58

We reconnected and I said, come over to my space for tea. Let’s talk about what you’re doing in your life.

Candice Wu 6:05

That was magical. That was so fun.

Bianka Hardin 6:08

Yes –

Candice Wu 6:10

That’s right.

Bianka Hardin 6:13

One thing that I often do is, we can call it a prayer or asking the universe, but I often say, you know, show me the right people, show me the right space, show me how to make a difference in people’s lives, the community in the world.

Bianka Hardin 6:30

So I had been like saying those blessings or prayers, and so I really trust that when people come in, it’s not just by chance. It’s actually God or the universe’s way to kind of say, she’s right here.

Candice Wu 6:30

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 6:30

You know, why don’t you ask Candice to work for you? And I think I asked you to work for me in that same team meeting?

Bianka Hardin 6:54

I think so. I was desiring the same thing –

Bianka Hardin 6:59

Yeah.

Candice Wu 7:00

That is another thing that I love about you. And what I’ve learned from you, is that trust, and trusting in the universe and trusting in the right things showing up. And there it was, it felt so right.

Bianka Hardin 7:01

Yeah.

Candice Wu 7:04

Thank you.

Bianka Hardin 7:15

Yeah. No, it’s beautiful. One of the classes that I took from Andrew at Meditate was a kind of a visualization meditation course. Where you can visualize what you want in your life, and then it manifests. It’s so beautiful. So, I feel like I often am praying for kind of that vision or that guidance, or just to kind of show me what will work for me or what I need, or the right answer. It’s beautiful. And so when it happens, you can just feel it in your gut. You know, this is –

Candice Wu 7:52

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 7:52

so right. You know, it’s beautiful.

Candice Wu 7:55

Yeah, there’s a knowing. And it’s so beautiful because it’s this unfolding of aligned things coming in your life. Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 8:06

Yeah. It’s nice to reconnect with you, on your podcast. It’s such an honor to speak with you and I often listen to your podcast while I’m on vacation. I walk by the lake or the beach, and I listened to your beautiful podcasts, and they’re so inspirational. So, thank you for having me on today.

Candice Wu 8:25

Oh, thank you. That’s so sweet. It’s wonderful to have you. I wanted to start off with a question about you, on your journey now. You know, we’ve talked about our coming together at different times, and the right points in our lives. I am curious, what this conversation together, you know, unfolds. But also, where are you in your life journey now and what is interesting for you now?

Bianka Hardin 8:56

Well, I feel like I’m someone who has so many things popping, you know. A lot of things happen at once for me, and I get really excited and inspired by so many things. So, I would say that I’m really inspired by my own personal healing and the potential for healing. As I do my own work, it just opened my eyes up to the power of healing work that we all are doing or could be doing. And how that could just really improve the world, in terms of changing generational patterns of trauma, of hurt, of anxiety, of relational difficulties, and it’s been really neat. Just kind of peeling off the layers of my own, I guess defenses, or protective strategies to kind of uncover what’s underneath from that, has been really inspiring for me.

Bianka Hardin 10:04

And so, I’ve been really thinking about intergenerational legacies of trauma, developmental trauma, social, historical, political trauma. And kind of thinking about me being half-German and half-Southern, and what influences have led to where I’m at today? My own self-care, as a therapist, how do I take care of myself so that I can be the best therapist that I can be in this moment? So, those are a few things that are on my mind lately.

Candice Wu 10:43

Mm-hmm. That’s really exciting. So, what have you found in terms of being half-German and half from the South that does influence your pathway, or what you’re working with now?

Bianka Hardin 10:58

It’s been really interesting. So my mother’s side is German, and my father’s side is from South Carolina. I’ve always been super curious about, you know, their childhoods. Where did they come from? What’s the family’s story? Lots of questions, right? And I wondered, am I so curious because people aren’t talking about things? Like, as if I need to investigate what my roots and my heritage is.

Bianka Hardin 11:33

And so, I found myself teaching a class called “Intergenerational Legacies of Trauma and Post World War II Germany” at The Chicago School with my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Pam Niesluchowski, and we teach on campus, and then we go to Germany for 10 days. It’s as if I’m learning about myself through this class because we haven’t discussed it in my family. There are certain things that we don’t talk about that, as the message. We don’t talk about what happened before that might be too difficult, or I kind of grew up with a message that if things become emotional, you know? Let’s just not talk about that.

Bianka Hardin 12:16

So I think my way of figuring out who I am, is through this journey of teaching this class. And going over to Germany, visiting historical sites, and really understanding that. In the class, we also go to a family constellations workshop and do an experiential with that. And I’ve been learning about how the things are talked about that aren’t unexpressed or all in me.

Bianka Hardin 12:48

Somehow, I’m holding on to things that maybe, it wasn’t safe to explore because of actual safety issues. And now that I’m, kind of, in a safer environment, I’m having access to all these intense feelings. One thing that I’ve learned is that I’m intensely fearful. I have a lot of worries about my own personal safety or the safety of my family. I just thought that was normal, you know?

Candice Wu 13:20

Well, you wouldn’t know anything different, right? Like, this is what you felt.

Bianka Hardin 13:26

Exactly.

Candice Wu 13:26

All your life, right?

Bianka Hardin 13:27

Or, you know?

Bianka Hardin 13:27

You mean, you haven’t figured out the escape route out of it in case the building goes on fire?

Candice Wu 13:35

Like, this is the way you thought everyone experienced it?

Bianka Hardin 13:38

Right? I would see women walking at night with headphones on or jogging and I’m like, “Oh, no! That ain’t safe, you know?” I thought at all times, something could happen to me. And for me, I guess I thought that was my NARM. But, what that really resulted in is a lot of hyperarousal and a very activated nervous system. I started learning this more through Somatic Experiencing, and through the NeuralAffective Relational Model and kind of thinking like, wow, I actually don’t feel safe. I’m not trustful for others. My whole life, I thought I trusted people, you know? I’ve learned that this distrust is not there.

Bianka Hardin 14:27

And so I think, it’s been really enlightening to figure out the depth of this lack of safety that I carry around with me on a daily basis. And how freeing it’s been through my work with SC and NARM and family constellations. I was just on a road trip. I actually was enjoying the ride, instead of thinking of all the ways the car could veer off the road.

Candice Wu 14:56

Right. So glad you experienced that.

Bianka Hardin 15:02

Yeah!

Candice Wu 15:03

Makes such a difference.

Bianka Hardin 15:05

Yeah. When people told me they loved writing and they enjoyed the ride, I always thought, I don’t get that at all. I don’t understand that.

Candice Wu 15:13

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 15:13

And actually, it was happening to me. I’m thinking, “This is amazing!” This country is so beautiful. The landscape is so beautiful. And I just felt this sense of safety. That’s kind of a newer feeling for me, you know? I feel emotional just touching into that.

Candice Wu 15:31

It’s beautiful. You could experience what was around you with appreciation, and feel safe in it.

Bianka Hardin 15:38

Exactly. Yeah. So, I think I’ve just been really curious about German history, German-American history, and history of the Holocaust. And then, I’ve been very curious about Southern history, and slavery, and issues of race and racism. It’s not an obsession for me. It’s just like an intense curiosity and wanting to know, and learn more. And explore the topics that have been taboo in my family, you know? That we don’t talk about.

Candice Wu 16:11

Yeah. I mean, do you feel like that’s connected with this sort of innate desire to know the truth? To know the story?

Bianka Hardin 16:20

I think so. I mean, I think I have a deep curiosity about the truth and people’s stories, my own story, right? Why did this happen? Why were people so hateful to one another? How could this level of violence occur? What leads to that or what allows that in a society to happen?

Bianka Hardin 16:47

I just really want to know, and so I find myself going to historical sites and reading novels or historical fiction that really helped me better understand that. And it can be really deeply painful at times to open those doors and look in. But I also feel like, that’s also a way of honoring people on what happened in our history. We can’t just pretend these things didn’t happen when they did. And I think that’s really important. And I think that’s what’s really missing in the United States. This deep curiosity about how did this happen? Why did this happen? How is it still occurring? And it seems like there’s this desire to close the door on that and just move forward, and not look backward.

Bianka Hardin 17:38

Whereas in Germany, when I visited, there’s lots of historical markers and an acknowledgment of this history that is so intensely painful. There’s a lot of shame there, at least, that’s what I experienced growing up. My mother was born right after World War II. We don’t talk about that, and it doesn’t feel good to talk about it. But now there are lots of markers and places to visit. And there’s this acknowledgment of the history which I think is really healing.

Candice Wu 18:07

I think that’s very healing and I experienced that, too, when I was in Germany in December of last year. I got to see part of the wall. And that’s not exactly the topic of what you’re speaking of, but just to even see that experience of peace of the Berlin Wall and to see that honored as part of the history, I thought that was very interesting.

Bianka Hardin 18:33

Yeah.

Candice Wu 18:34

Yeah. Just very honoring of the experience of people that are in the roots of this country.

Bianka Hardin 18:41

And that is part of what we explore in the class, the legacy of the wall and what happened before, during, and after the wall, and how that impacts people. The experience of immigration and how immigrants have been treated historically. All of that goes into passing down legacies of trauma or resilience and healing, you know?

Candice Wu 19:06

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel like when we put mistrust or distrust, or safety issues, or fears in the context of the whole lineage, somehow for me, they make sense to my life. It’s like, oh, there’s a context for where this made sense in the past. Where it was a reality and it can release me of what’s being held in me now. How do you experience it?

Bianka Hardin 19:38

Yeah, I mean. I think that through some work that I’ve done, there was a story that was really enlightening to me where I was at a NARM training and outside of the training, there was a hiking area. I really like being outside. I love walking. Even though I have fears of something happening, I don’t let that get in the way of me actually doing things.

Bianka Hardin 20:05

So, I remember I wanted to find this hiking trail. It was Warrenville near Naperville, a “safe, suburban area.” I recognized I had intense anxiety about going hiking on this trail by myself. And I’m like, sure, just do it. You know, probably nothing’s going to happen to you.

Candice Wu 20:35

Probably.

Bianka Hardin 20:36

Yeah, probably. I couldn’t find the path. So I turned around and ran into a fellow trainee. I said, “Oh, are you looking for the trail?” And she said, “Yes.” I said, “Oh, can we look together? I can’t find it.” She’s like, “That would be great. I would be afraid of running into a wild animal out there by myself.” And I said, “Wild animal? I’m worried about a wild person!”

Bianka Hardin 21:02

We, kind of, laughed because, you know, we’ve always had fears, but mine was of the human. You know?

Candice Wu 21:08

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 21:09

And so I kept thinking about that, like, why would I be afraid of running into a dangerous person out in this rail? I’m fully aware that there is violence against women, but it felt more intense than that. It felt more like, this is a legitimate 100% fear. I already thought like, what if they don’t find me? They’re going to send out the rescue crews, at least, you have your cell phone? I’m already triaging and figuring out what would happen if I disappeared? You know.

Candice Wu 21:44

Yeah, the game plan.

Bianka Hardin 21:45

The game plan. So, I kind of kept this fresh with me. And I was turning it over in my head a little bit. I’m like, “This is really intense, Bianka.” I wasn’t saying it in a way that I was looking down on myself. It was in a compassionate way. You know, it’s like, “Wow. It is really hard that you feel this way.”

Bianka Hardin 22:05

And I ended up doing a NARM-type session. And during that session, I realized that I was holding on to someone else’s fear. Like, that actually wasn’t mine. And it was like this epiphany that I had read like, wow, actually I don’t need to hold on to that anymore. That is not needed for me. It’s like, as if I had it in my hands. And I put it to the side and I said, “This belongs to someone else.” You know?

Candice Wu 22:37

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 22:38

And then I had this emotional experience and after that, I felt so much lighter. Now, I can’t say that it’s gone, but I would say that it was this realization that happened, that what I was carrying did not belong to me. That belonged to, probably, other women or other relatives in my lineage. Because I’m guessing that whatever happened to my relatives during World War I or World War II was really scary.

Bianka Hardin 23:12

I’m not living during that time right now. You know what I mean? And actually, that level of fear that I carried, is it necessary?

Candice Wu 23:23

Absolutely. Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 23:25

So it was really powerful. And it kind of helped me better understand this intergenerational trauma, and that it feels real. You know, like, I had an experience where I went down to my laundry room and I had intense fear. After I started doing this work, I felt very fragile and delicate doing some of this work. Then I had an experience where I got very afraid, and I knew what was happening. I said, “This doesn’t match the situation. But what you’re feeling is real. It feels intense and it’s incredibly scary.” I worked with a therapist who held that for me and allowed me to be with these feelings. It was so powerful. It was really amazing.

Bianka Hardin 24:20

Yeah. And me, allowing space for these experiences, has led to me, having greater capacity for joy and for figuring things out. Oh, wow, I felt so expansive and relaxed. It’s like, I’m figuring out, I’m like a new person.

Candice Wu 24:31

It’s really powerful.

Candice Wu 24:34

Yeah. So much of your energy was holding a fear that wasn’t yours.

Bianka Hardin 24:56

Exactly.

Candice Wu 24:57

And for that to be relieved, it’s like all this space and energy is you and yours and, what now?

Bianka Hardin 25:05

Yeah. I mean, it’s really amazing because I have always thought of myself as a laid back person. At least, that’s when people see me, that’s what they tell me. And it’s like, wow, I am that and I had all this fear, right?

Bianka Hardin 25:24

Anxiety and the healing work of body-oriented psychotherapy has really created so many possibilities for me. It’s really freeing. And so, I continue to think about how I’m feeling and say, “Wow, this is new and different. I feel more in touch with my aliveness.” You know, my life’s energy is really freed up which has been really great.

Candice Wu 25:57

It’s fantastic.

Bianka Hardin 25:58

Yeah.

Candice Wu 25:59

Yeah. And so you mentioned NARM, the NeuroAffective Relational Model.

Bianka Hardin 26:03

Yeah.

Candice Wu 26:04

I want to hear more about that and your experience with it.

Bianka Hardin 26:06

Yeah. Well, I learned about NARM through my trainer, Brad Kammer. He introduced me when I went to a day-long intro. I met him through the Somatic Experiencing Community. NARM is based on Dr. Laurence Heller’s book, “Healing Developmental Trauma.” It’s almost like these worlds came together through this model, and I really appreciate it because the foundation is based on multiple models. But it’s relational, it’s based on psychodynamic, cognitive, behavioral, Somatic Experiencing, interpersonal neurobiology. And I’m probably forgetting a few other things.

Bianka Hardin 26:48

But, it’s this relational model that works both top-down and bottom-up. So I appreciate both being able to work top-down and bottom-up. And then, I think the potential for healing is so great. I’ve done traditional therapy, I’ve done Somatic Experiencing, and now I’ve done NARM. And I think, for me, it’s this coming together of these ways of thinking, about how my early life experiences have shaped me and these strategies that I utilize to protect myself, were developed really early on in life based on those experiences.

Bianka Hardin 27:31

And yet now as an adult, I continue to utilize them when babying my experiences, and they are very different. So I’ve been able to see ways that I have protected myself, that maybe aren’t serving me as much now as an adult. I have realized what was really powerful is that, I’m very good at attuning to others and predicting what other people need. I needed to do that as a child. I needed to know what my caregivers needed, wanted. I was a good girl and I always wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing.

Candice Wu 28:10

Yeah, you and me both. That is one of my protective ways, as well.

Bianka Hardin 28:16

Exactly. And you know what? That makes us really good therapists, right? Like, I am really good at sizing up a situation and adjusting myself to adapt to the other, right? That’s great! However, if you said, “Well, what do you want, Bianka? What do you need? What do you prefer? As a mother –

Candice Wu 28:42

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 28:42

you have a child, is always like, “What’s your favorite?” And then I think- I don’t know –

Candice Wu 28:48

That’s great!

Bianka Hardin 28:49

what my favorite is, but I know what your favorite is. Right?

Candice Wu 28:53

Right. You come to know everybody but yourself.

Bianka Hardin 28:56

Exactly. And so what I realized-

Candice Wu 28:58

As a survival.

Bianka Hardin 28:59

Yes. I needed to know that and that kept me safe. There are so many benefits of that in my life now. But, I really didn’t deeply know myself, right? So, that has been really perplexing. You know, a 47-year-old woman, who was, I would say, accomplished, successful. And it’s like, wow, I don’t know myself as well as I thought I did. Like, I know how to-

Candice Wu 29:36

What a profound thing to get to.

Bianka Hardin 29:37

Yes. I know how to have a successful relationship and have good friends. But what I realized was, I was really protecting myself. Not only not sharing my deep self, but maybe not even knowing my deep self. As much as I would like to. Right?

Candice Wu 29:56

Yeah, absolutely. I can so relate to that. That whole journey.

Bianka Hardin 30:01

Exactly. And so, what NARM has done, is something that traditional therapy hadn’t done for me because what I could do in traditional therapy is size up the therapist and kind of let them know what I think they wanted to know. But like with NARM, you start off with a contract, what’s in your heart’s desire? What would you like for yourself today? How do you want to use this time? Well, when someone comes at me in that way, I felt like I was a deer in headlights? Like, okay. You mean, you really want to know what I want?

Candice Wu 30:40

Right? Is that a real question? That’s a question people ask?

Bianka Hardin 30:47

Yeah.

Candice Wu 30:49

Yeah, I understand that. It’s like spending so much energy, with knowing other people and what they need, and what they’re feeling. There’s just no room for yourself in that sort of place.

Bianka Hardin 31:02

Exactly. And so, what surprised me was how much emotion was there with that for me? Like, I felt really young, you know? Really vulnerable. So, it was not only a hard question to answer, but it’s almost like I felt touched that someone really wanted to know me.

Candice Wu 31:24

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 31:24

They cared and that attunement was there.

Bianka Hardin 31:27

Because with NARM, the therapist doesn’t have an agenda. The therapist really wants to know what is it that you want for yourself. It’s not about fixing someone, or it’s not about being goal-oriented. It’s really about the person’s heart, you know. And I think that’s just what I needed for who I am, it was to really get in touch with my own heart’s desire in a really authentic, deep level.

Candice Wu 32:00

And in the support of someone that really wanted to know. And to hold the space for that sounds really powerful.

Bianka Hardin 32:07

Yeah. And also figuring out the ways that I get in my own way. The model is also about personal agency, and what are the ways like, maybe I have a heart’s desire, I do. But what are the ways that maybe I get in my own way of getting to that? Because I’m using these old strategies that I used to have to protect myself. And so, I’ve been really working on authenticity and vulnerability, and sharing my heart, and my voice, and stepping into vulnerability.

Bianka Hardin 32:42

Boy, it’s been kind of scary and emotional but yet, highly interpersonal and rewarding, and personally rewarding. But also, my personal relationships have really deepened. Yeah. That’s what I want for myself, to be authentic, to be vulnerable, to be in deep connection with people, deep authentic connection.

Bianka Hardin 33:08

And so, that’s what I’m working on. I’m working on it every day and there are lots of tears. You don’t always feel whatever wall I had up, is now lessened through my personal decision. And it could still be there when I need it to be but it feels like deep growth.

Candice Wu 33:33

It sounds like it. So with NARM, are you talking about it? Like, talking about the protections? Or is it more so relating and then seeing how that shows up between you and the therapist? Or how does that, there’s the element of being, with what comes up in the feelings in the body? How does that all look?

Bianka Hardin 33:58

Yeah, well. So, you’re looking for psychobiological shifts in the client and, or, within yourself if you’re the client. I think it could look very different depending on the client or on the therapist. Because I’m a therapist, I’m very interested in the process. And so when I do my experientials, I’m very curious about the theoretical and the interventions. But, not all clients might be as interested in that.

Bianka Hardin 34:30

I personally believe with all therapy, that having psychoeducation is an important part of the process. And so I think, it demystifies the process for clients and I think knowledge is power.

Bianka Hardin 34:46

And so when I work with clients, I like to share with them, my observations or what I’m doing. Or just to give them an informational framework. But not all clients want that or need that, or asked for that. So I typically do a little bit of that. And if a client really- it resonates with them, then I’ll do more of that. If it doesn’t resonate, then I’ll pull back a little bit. It’s really about kind of what I believe they want and what helps them. So I think you can adjust the model per client.

Bianka Hardin 35:18

So one thing that I was talking to you about before we started the show was this great sense of expansion that I had when I was thinking about enjoying the ride. And I was really tickled about how much fun I was having on this car ride journey that I had not experienced before because it’d be more typical for me to have anxiety. I had this great feeling of expansion and then we, kind of, turned a corner, literally.

Candice Wu 35:48

Literally.

Bianka Hardin 35:50

And I looked down and there was like a ravine with a stream. And then I started thinking about the danger. You know what I mean? Like, what would happen if the car –

Bianka Hardin 35:59

went off the road and I have this contraction where, not only did I have a little bit of anxiety, I had a lot of anxiety. It was almost like, I had this great expansion in this contraction. And so, that’s something that is pretty common with NARM. That’s something where some of my clients and I talked about that to normalize that process, rather than me thinking like, “Oh, I made no progress at all. Look at me, I’m even more anxious than I’ve ever been.” I thought, “Oh, you know what? This is the contraction. You felt so expansive and so open, and your heart was wide open to the experience that you’re having, like, seeing all this beauty. And then, now you’re in a contraction. This is going to go away, you know. This is going to be temporary, and it’s okay.”

Candice Wu 35:59

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 36:09

It’s this way of me knowing the model, help me have more compassion for myself, and not be hard on myself about it. Just, kind of, understand this is what’s happening now. So, that really helped me.

Candice Wu 37:04

I think that’s so important.

Bianka Hardin 37:05

Yeah.

Candice Wu 37:06

Because so often people have that thought, then that comes right after that, “Yeah. This is a setback.” Or, “I thought I was doing better.”

Bianka Hardin 37:13

Right.

Candice Wu 37:15

And it’s all part of that the process of the body, learning more capacity. And because actually, that intensity was there says a lot about the expansion that was happening –

Bianka Hardin 37:26

Right.

Candice Wu 37:26

as a reflection of it. So you mentioned about agency in NARM. And I’m curious about how you work with agency or what it means.

Bianka Hardin 37:35

Yeah, so NARM is all about agency. And that, how are we playing a role? And what’s happening kind of in our lives and the use of protective strategies? Or what are our own ways of either getting in the way of what we really want? Or helping us get to what we really want.

Bianka Hardin 37:59

And so I found that there are ways that I really pressure myself, and I was doing it before we started the show, think I joked with you about how I was really putting a lot of pressure on myself and having performance anxiety. Right?

Bianka Hardin 38:20

And so I was pressuring myself. Here I am talking to lovely Candice, wanting to talk about what’s on my heart, in my mind, what’s inspiring me? And then I noticed, I’m pressuring myself, because what if I don’t do a good enough job or explain things good enough, right?

Bianka Hardin 38:37

So I’m getting in my own way of speaking to what’s on my heart and what’s inspiring me, right? So what I can do now through NARM’s lens is to realize the ways I am doing things that may get in the way of what my heart’s desire is.

Bianka Hardin 38:56

For example, the stories we tell ourselves, you know, or being really hard on ourselves, like if we make an error, like, for example, during the podcast, what if I didn’t explain the concept of agency right? I might then start shaming and blaming myself, because I didn’t do –

Candice Wu 39:15

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 39:15

enough job and kind of go down this mental path of people aren’t going to be happy with me that I didn’t do a good enough job explaining what agency is, well, it’s actually: “Okay, if I mess up. You know what I mean? Then I’ll just fix it. It’s all right.”

Candice Wu 39:30

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 39:30

But, I’ve noticed for myself, there are ways that I do that, I pressure myself, or I blame and shame myself, or I’m hard on myself, for being human. Right? It’s as if making a mistake is not acceptable. Right? And, you know, some of us have grown up in environments that have been extremely critical. I’m kind of noticing flaws or needing to try to achieve perfection. And sometimes when we grow up that way, we, then pressure ourselves to be perfect or not to make mistakes.

Bianka Hardin 40:13

And really, I noticed that a lot. And I’ve been really working on that, of not shaming and blaming myself and pressuring myself, but just accepting myself. And the outcome has been that, I have felt calmer, definitely more relaxed, more forgiving of myself, but not only of myself, but others too. I say everyone makes mistakes, mistakes are really learning opportunities, it actually is genuine, I really feel that way. And there’s just been more of a settling around: Life is messy, and that’s okay.

Candice Wu 40:51

Yeah, naming those things, noticing those things that really can put you in the place of not getting what you want –

Bianka Hardin 41:00

Exactly.

Candice Wu 41:00

or moving towards yourself the way you want, and being kinder or –

Bianka Hardin 41:04

Right.

Candice Wu 41:04

taking in a different way with it.

Bianka Hardin 41:06

Right. And so when we can kind of notice these things, then we have an opportunity to continue doing it, right? Or we can do something different. You know, it’s kind of like, “Hey, you have these choices here. What would you like to do?”

Candice Wu 41:21

Yeah, I think that’s so freeing.

Bianka Hardin 41:23

Exactly.

Candice Wu 41:24

There isn’t shame with that. It’s choice. When you know, it’s choice. And we have the right to continue doing it the way we’re doing it. It’s a question of do we want to and how do we want to do it?

Bianka Hardin 41:37

Right. And what’s great is that the client gets to choose that, you know, they do what’s best for them.

Bianka Hardin 41:45

And so I think it’s about agency and also giving choice, you know, and not being tied to the outcome as a therapist, you know, what Brad was saying is that it’s very freeing. You know, this is a model where the therapist often feels much freer. You know, we’re not goal oriented. We’re really looking to see what works for the client, you know, and they get to choose that.

Candice Wu 42:13

Absolutely. Beautiful. Well, I wanted to ask you about what brings you joy right now. And the thing is, like, so many things –

Bianka Hardin 42:22

Yeah.

Candice Wu 42:22

that bring you joy in your life. And I wondered what you would say, so yeah, what brings you joy or what makes you feel alive?

Bianka Hardin 42:32

I am. I really love being by the beach, by water. I was just on vacation. I went to Hilton Head. And I love walking on the beach. And I love the sound of the waves, and the wind, and nature. The smell of the air, the sand on my feet. I like walking by the waves. Maybe letting them wash over my feet. It might be a little cold. That’s okay, but like just really being by the water really brings me joy.

Candice Wu 43:12

That sounds so yummy.

Bianka Hardin 43:13

Yeah, so like soothing for my soul. So being in nature –

Candice Wu 43:22

A good reminder. Yes. Being in nature.

Bianka Hardin 43:25

Yeah, I mean, just getting outside and I’m so blessed to live in Chicago. And we have this beautiful lakefront, and I just been enjoying going to the beach. I mean, not recently because it’s been winter, but even when it’s cold, it’s beautiful. You know, like walking by the lake. It’s just a really soothing experience. And it makes me think, like, when we live so close to something beautiful, why wouldn’t we take advantage of it? You know?

Candice Wu 43:59

Yeah, right. Absolutely.

Bianka Hardin 44:03

What’s that term, where it’s like, I forget, it’s like, bathing in the woods, where you’re out walking in nature, and it’s like this soothing experience. There’s a term that I learned recently, and I’m not pulling it up right now.

Candice Wu 44:20

I don’t think I know it.

Bianka Hardin 44:21

Oh, really? Okay, I thought you might,

Bianka Hardin 44:25

It’s like Forest Bathing or something like that, where it just speaks to this repetitive experience of being in nature and how healing and soothing and calming it is. I feel like, it’s something I personally want to do more of, you know, I feel really inspired by being outside and connecting with nature.

Candice Wu 44:49

Well, whatever that’s called, I did it the other day, walk down the street in Michigan, like Earth, just take me you know.

Candice Wu 44:57

I just surrendered myself into nature. I often like to picture myself being buried by the earth, it’s very soothing for me. I get to feel into the quiet and sense into the nutrients of the earth.

Bianka Hardin 44:57

Yeah.

Candice Wu 45:15

And in Tantric Yoga, we have the ability to sense into the elements and to taste them, to smell them, to feel the vibration, even if we’re not actually doing it.

Bianka Hardin 45:30

Yeah.

Candice Wu 45:31

So it’s not just imagining, it’s actually touching into our elemental nature. And this walk the other day, I was like, “Just absorb me, nature.” You know, just let me come back home to my nature, and it helps me just release some of the emotions that were going on in me and I started coughing up a lung. Which, for me, there’s some energy in my body that’s expelling. And that coughing is a clearing of that.

Bianka Hardin 46:07

Yes.

Candice Wu 46:09

Yeah. such a simple thing to do, but can be so powerful.

Bianka Hardin 46:13

Yeah, I listened to your Energetic Boundaries Podcast, and you talked about that. We’ve talked about that too, like that clearing that happens. Yeah.

Candice Wu 46:25

And I’m just reminded of supervision meetings with you, where sometimes we would walk and talk –

Bianka Hardin 46:31

Yes!

Candice Wu 46:31

side by side. And you would just remind me to look at the outlines of the trees –

Bianka Hardin 46:37

Oh, yes. I love looking at the trees.

Candice Wu 46:41

we would slow down –

Bianka Hardin 46:42

Yeah.

Candice Wu 46:42

It’s the best! It’s like, the simple thing we can do for ourselves. And so easy, in a way, it can be easy.

Bianka Hardin 46:49

Yeah, I’ve been really into walking meetings, instead of sitting meetings. And if we can walk outside and look at nature, and I am, like, really captivated by nature. And I am known to stop the conversation abruptly and say, “Look at that!” you know? “So beautiful!”

Bianka Hardin 47:11

And it’s just that it’s hard to pass up something, you know, it’s like a gift, you know, that you were able to say this –

Candice Wu 47:20

Yeah.

Bianka Hardin 47:20

I guess it’s kind of a form of mindfulness, taking it all in what’s around you at that moment and really appreciating it.

Candice Wu 47:27

Yeah, and we spend so much time looking at our screens in our phones up close –

Bianka Hardin 47:31

Yeah.

Candice Wu 47:31

That when we look far in the distance, like, that’s a muscle that we’re, I think we’re losing if we don’t stay with it.

Bianka Hardin 47:40

Yeah, something that’s hard on me personally as a therapist is all the sitting that I do, and I think taking opportunities to walk outside during either a networking meeting or a supervision meeting, or just even taking the time during a break to get outside is so needed.

Bianka Hardin 48:00

It just shifts the energy, you know, really important.

Candice Wu 48:07

Well, thank you so much for sharing with me on the show today and sharing with our audience today. Is there anything else that feels important to share? Or interesting or alive for you now?

Bianka Hardin 48:18

No, I mean, I had a really enjoyable time talking to you. And I really honor and appreciate you so much, and just really great to have this conversation with you. And, I always enjoy talking with you. I feel like many of our conversations could be podcasts.

Candice Wu 48:38

I agree.

Candice Wu 48:40

We always get to some depth of something –

Bianka Hardin 48:43

Yeah.

Candice Wu 48:43

and some fun with each other.

Bianka Hardin 48:45

Yeah.

Candice Wu 48:46

Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure and a real honor to have you. And I know that you’re having a NARM workshop coming up. Would you want to share about that at the end of April?

Bianka Hardin 48:55

Yes, I would love to we’re… me and Gina Essex. She is a NARM lead assistant and quite knowledgeable in NARM. She and I are co-facilitating a workshop at Chicago Body Mind Wellness Studio on Saturday, April 27, during the day, and it’s an introduction to NARM. It’s from about 10 am to 4 pm. And we’re inviting anyone who’s really interested in developmental trauma, come by and you can sign up online. I’m also doing a workshop on my own, it will be my first solo flight into teaching a day-long introductory workshop.

Candice Wu 49:42

Wow!

Bianka Hardin 49:43

I know.

Bianka Hardin 49:44

I’m excited slash nervous slash excited.

Bianka Hardin 49:50

I’m spreading my wings. And that’ll be on June 21st at Harper College in the suburbs. So, yeah, I’ll get you more information about that.

Candice Wu 50:00

Wonderful!

Bianka Hardin 50:01

I would love for anyone interested in working with developmental trauma to just come, check out the workshop, because we’re going to be starting a larger training in Chicago in late July, which is about a year long. And that’s where you go really in-depth with the model. And that, for me was a very transformative experience, working with trauma survivors for 20 years, and I’ve gone to a lot of trainings, and I would say it was one of the best pieces of training I’ve ever been to, and great connections personally for me and interpersonally, so I highly recommend it.

Candice Wu 50:38

Excellent. Great. Yeah, we’ll put all that in the show notes –

Bianka Hardin 50:42

Great!

Candice Wu 50:42

when you have the information and where can people find you, Bianka?

Bianka Hardin 50:47

I am at Centered Therapy, Chicago, and I have a website, www.centertherapychicago.com. We have a Facebook page called Center Therapy Chicago, and we are currently in the North Center neighborhood of Chicago at 4124 North Lincoln, will be moving location shortly, but we’re going to be staying in the same neighborhood.

Candice Wu 51:10

Beautiful. Thank you so much, Bianka.

Bianka Hardin 51:13

Thank you! It’s a pleasure.

Candice Wu 51:15

Fabulous to have you.

Bianka Hardin 51:17

Yeah, thank you so much.

Candice Wu 51:22

It was wonderful to talk to Bianca today. I’m so glad you were here listening. And I hope that you receive something interesting out of that or could relate to her anxieties or her experience in her body. Think that deeply resonates with me, a past part of me.

Candice Wu 51:39

Some people think that I have just always been this Zen and kind of calm person or a lot of people enjoy listening to my voice and the calmness that comes in it. But I spent a good, solid 26 or so years, being in anxiety and depression and not being in my body at all, where I didn’t feel safe at all. But I didn’t even know it for so many years, and the story of how Bianka felt a shift in herself where she actually could enjoy her body and enjoy what’s around her. That was something I definitely went through and was a very transformative experience those first moments of experiencing it. So that’s very related to my story as well.

Candice Wu 52:28

If you’re interested in NARM or Somatic Experiencing or what Bianka has to offer, including the parenting and mindfulness or trauma stewardship, feel free to reach out to Bianka and I encourage you to connect with her NARM experiential around settling in connection with the NeuroAffective Relational Model. So she’s going to offer an exercise that is focused on connection and facilitating a deep sense of settling in the body. Again, you can find that experience show later this week on the podcast or at the website at CandiceWu.com/bianka.

Candice Wu 53:06

Before you go today, I want to invite you to sign up for the bi-monthly newsletter, which offers self-love notes and tips for healing and embodiment. As well as just reminders to love yourself, get in touch with your spirit, learn about yourself, and listen to your inner voice, and keep up to date on retreats and workshops, as well as the podcasts that are going out. Feel free to sign up for that at CandiceWu.com/embody.

Candice Wu 53:30

Also, for any of my listeners that are interested in exploring any 20-minute free consultation, if you were a new client to me or somebody that has just connected with the podcast and is interested in learning about the healing modalities or how we would support you in your deepest desires in connection with yourself and loving yourself, feel free to reach out to me and schedule a free session.

Candice Wu 54:01

There’s no pressure to continue in sessions with me or anything. But it’s lovely to connect with all of you who are out there, who are interested in your own growth, who are interested in filling a hole in yourself right now. And we can have this conversation and just see what your next steps are or make a connection.

Candice Wu 54:21

In that experience. I can also share my intuitive sense of what might be supportive for you and your journey and support you in getting there. If you’d like to connect with me that way, feel free to hop on my website at CandiceWu.com/connect. It’s been a wonderful time having you here and I look forward to connecting with all of you in some way or another. Thank you so much, sending you lots of love and wishing you all the joy that you desire in your life, see you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Introduction

Candice Wu 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Embody podcast. Today you’re listening to an experiential by Bianka Hardin, who is a clinical psychologist.

You can find Bianka’s entire introductory episode at CandiceWu.com/bianka.

Today’s experiential is a NARM exercise, that’s the Neuro-Affective Relational Model, which is focused on connection. This exercise can facilitate a deep sense of settling and connection in the whole being.

So feel free to find a comfortable place to be and jump into this experience with Bianka.

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing and self-love.

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Hello and Intro from Bianka

Bianka Hardin 1:13

Hello, and thank you for joining me today for this NARM. The Neuro-Affective Relational Model self-inquiry exercise based on connection.

During this exercise, I will be asking you to reflect on your experience, to engage in self-touch and just to notice what’s going on inside for you emotionally, physiologically, from a thought perspective, with non-judgmental curiosity.

All of this is up to you how much or how little you’re wanting to engage in this exercise.

This exercise will be focused on connection. If you’re willing, I invite you to reflect on a time where you felt connected to yourself, connected to others, in a way that feels good to you.

As you reflect on this personal and interpersonal connection, notice what happens inside. Notice your internal experience, your thoughts, your feelings, your level of presence with yourself, remembering to notice with non-judgmental curiosity.

Let’s Begin

Now I’d like to guide you through some self-touch as you notice your own sense of connection.

If you feel comfortable and would like to, I invite you to touch your shoulders.

You’re welcome to do a self-hug, crossing your arms across your body with touching your shoulders or you can touch them in any way that feels right for you.

Feel free to gently squeeze your shoulders, squeeze them tight or just softly place your hands on your shoulders, noticing what’s happening inside as you do this.

I invite you to move your touch and attention down to your elbows.

Feeling into your elbows as you gently touch your elbows, moving your attention down to your wrists and hands, either gently or with more firmness.

Feel free to just connect with your wrists and with your hands. Again, inviting you to notice what’s going on inside as you do this.

Inviting you next to connect with your ribcage.

Noticing what happens as you touch your ribs, moving your hands down to your hips and pelvis area.

Again, noticing what’s happening for you as you engage in this self-inquiry and experiential exercise around connection.

Moving your hands down to your knees, touching the front of your knees, the back of your knees.

Again, reflect on what’s happening inside for you.

Moving your attention down to your ankles.

Feeling the front of your ankles, the back of your ankles.

Just noticing your own connection with yourself as you engage in this exercise.

Notice your breath.

Taking your attention up to your neck area.

Touching the front of your neck, the back of your neck, with the amount of pressure that feels just right for you.

And ending with putting one hand on the front of your forehead, one hand on the back of your head.

Gently noticing that pressure on the front and the back of your head, noticing what happens inside as you connect with yourself in this way.

And as we wrap up this exercise, just noticing the level of connection you have with yourself as you engage in this activity.

Notice with Curiosity and Closing

Again, continuing to notice with non-judgmental curiosity, just really ending with observations about your own level of connection to yourself and others and how is this different than maybe it was 5 years ago, 10 years ago, or a year ago? Or, even how is it similar or different than it was when you began this exercise.

Feel free to continue checking in with yourself after this is done.

I want to thank you for your time and attention today.

Closing

Candice Wu 8:21

Thank you so much for tuning into this experience with Bianka Hardin.

You can again, find her entire episode at CandiceWu.com/bianka and you can also find other guests on the podcast offering their experiences, healing experientials, as well as meditations that can support you in your own healing, self-love, and presence.

You can find all the episodes at CandiceWu.com/podcast. See you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

This episode is with special guest, Joy Curran, who authors Equine Assisted Counseling with the help of her amazing horse, Chaya. We talked all about the ways that horses can be an embodied and powerful way to learn about yourself, move through blocks and challenges, and build confidence as well as the spiritual connection and love that horses can bring.

Candice Wu 0:22

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature inner wisdom, Embodied Healing and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:36

My name is Candice Wu and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations, and guided healing support and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 0:59

Today’s episode is brought to you by the Sound Sleep Alchemy album, which is an album of 11 healing experientials and meditations that will help you feel more grounded, restful, and easeful in your sleep and throughout the day. It’s a stepping stone towards healing trauma, bringing your nervous system to a baseline where you feel relaxed and calm. And looking at the deeper aspects of sleep issues and feeling disembodied.

Candice Wu 1:23

It’s one of my offerings that you can find at my website at CandiceWu.com/soundsleep. Your support in ordering an album helps me to make more healing albums, content, and produce more podcast episodes.

Candice Wu 1:35

Thank you all out there for being awesome listening in to the show and supporting it in ways that you can and now let’s get to the show.

Candice Wu 1:44

So for the month of July, I was house-sitting and cat-sitting in Perth, Australia. Being in the suburbs of Perth, I was seeing all sorts of farmlands, expansive fields, as well as horse farms. And I just remembered that spark in me that wanted to learn to ride horses.

Candice Wu 2:04

I’ve only ridden a horse one other time. And this time as I thought about horseback riding, thought about my spirit animal that comes to me in my dreams often, which is a horse, I just started crying, realizing that I needed to do this. I needed to learn how to ride a horse. I needed to be with horses and learn from them.

Candice Wu 2:26

So I was actually connected to Joy through the friend that I was house-sitting for, and I just could not be more thrilled about this meeting. And what’s even more exciting to find someone that did Equine Assisted Learning and Counseling. So horses mixed with healing and therapy and empowerment. Two things that I already know I love.

Candice Wu 2:47

So here today, we have Joy Curran with us and she is Joy by name, but also by nature. She just lives to help others discover the joy in their life. And using her own experiences of overcoming anxiety and depression, she is able to relate to many others going through similar struggles.

Candice Wu 3:06

Joy’s work is based in Sunny Perth, and she offers these Equine Assisted Counseling and Learning Services with the help of her amazing horse Chaya. She’s a qualified counselor and uses her intuition to select from a wide range of counseling techniques and Equine activities and just blends them in this creative way, which she also gives an incredible amount of space for whatever you want to bring, and how you want to explore being with a horse or working with any of the struggles, challenges or desires you have.

Candice Wu 3:38

So here’s our conversation. I hope you enjoy it. And following this episode, there’s a bonus, a video of me having a session with Joy and her horse, Chaya. In the session, which was very powerful, I touched into some of my long-standing sufferings and feeling a new baseline of rest and ease in my body.

Candice Wu 4:00

Also, I want to mention, as usual with most of my guests on the show, there’s a special gift offered by Joy to those who are inspired to work with her and Chaya. And, if that even means taking a trip to Perth. Great, feel free to check that out at the end of the episode. And just one more thing before we jump into the episode, just to give a heads up, Joy starts with a prayer just like with her clients in her sessions, she invites prayer, if you feel comfortable with it, and if you desire it.

Candice Wu 4:30

And so, in this episode, we start off with a prayer and if it’s not for you, you can skip it and just move forward or you can just receive whatever it is that you can from it. If you’re curious about that, you can check out also near the end of the episode where Joy talks more about prayer and how she incorporates it. So, without further ado, here is Joy.

Candice Wu 4:54

Okay, here we are with Joy Curran. And we are in Wanneroo, the northern suburbs of Perth in Australia. And I’m so thrilled to be here with you today. Welcome.

Joy Curran 5:05

Thank you, Candice. I’m very excited to be here with you today and feel very privileged and honored to be part of this podcast. So thank you and welcome.

Candice Wu 5:14

Thank you. Yes, I’m a guest here and you’d like to start with a prayer and I would welcome you to do that.

Joy Curran 5:21

“Dear Lord, I just acknowledge your presence here with us now. And I just ask your blessing on our time together, that everyone who hears this podcast may just receive a blessing from it, that they may grow in some way personally, socially, spiritually, emotionally, and just get whatever they need out of that time together. I pray in the name of Jesus. Amen.”

Candice Wu 5:47

Amen. Thank you.

Joy Curran 5:50

Thank you.

Candice Wu 5:51

So we are here. Would you call this a farm or just more just like a horse?

Joy Curran 5:56

Yeah, the owners call it a farm, I’m from much larger properties. So for me, this is more of a lifestyle property. So, it’s about five acres in size, mostly green, even in summer, because we have a reticulation here. And yeah, it is a beautiful farm because of all the animals and birds that tend to be wandering about the place as you can see. Some ducks and some chickens and some lambs, who you might hear their little footsteps heading on the ground around us, and an occasional bleat.

Candice Wu 6:36

And one of them was gnawing at the mic, excuse the different noises or enjoy them, rather.

Joy Curran 6:43

Yes, I can see him jumping on a little owl statue at the moment.

Candice Wu 6:49

They’re quite enjoying that over there.

Joy Curran 6:51

Fascinating!

Candice Wu 6:53

I want to just begin with inviting you Joy to share what it is you do, who you are, and anything you want to about the Equine Assisted Living, in teaching that you do.

Joy Curran 7:05

Beautiful. Thank you.

Joy Curran 7:07

So maybe we can break that down a little bit. Because those questions like I could speak all day on this question. So, um, so who am I? It’s one of those things I never really know how to answer. Because I feel like I’m such a big person. And, I feel like I extend into so many different areas that I find it hard to just narrow it down to who I am.

Candice Wu 7:33

Yeah.

Joy Curran 7:34

But yeah, who I am. I love people. I love animals. I love the expression of self, in myself. And — yes, thank you very much.

Joy Curran 7:51

I love it. Yeah, just beautiful.

Joy Curran 7:54

Lambs expressing themselves or people or whoever I come in contact with, just allowing that personal individual to shine. It’s jumping around now quite joyfully to me.

Candice Wu 8:10

I know it’s so interesting. This is just beginning as you’re talking about your self-expression.

Joy Curran 8:16

Yeah.

Candice Wu 8:17

Who you are and just being yourself and being connected.

Joy Curran 8:23

Gorgeous. And, I might have to do some Sheep Assisted Learning

Candice Wu 8:38

You’re thinking about Sheep Assisted Learning?

Joy Curran 8:40

Well, I am right now.

Joy Curran 8:44

With the response from the sheep as we’re talking, I’m thinking, “Yeah, why no?”

Joy Curran 8:49

The kind of stuff that we get happening with the horses all the time, just that, somehow they just respond to what we’re talking about. And they just kind of act out, what we’re thinking or feeling or expressing.

Candice Wu 9:01

Yeah.

Joy Curran 9:02

And I feel this letting go in being here and being with horses, being with animals, you can’t plan things, you can’t — and they won’t go as planned. And it’s kind of fun, just to see what’s going to happen and embracing the unexpected things. That’s a huge part of it, yeah. And being a practitioner, you know, getting to that point where I can let go and trust that, whatever happens, is going to be beneficial. Whatever happens, we’re going to get something good out of it.

Candice Wu 9:35

So tell me more about your work. And, well, first, I want to say, I completely understand that sense of not being like the challenge of how do you describe who you are, because we’re so many things, we are so big, and often in our lives, we’ve been told to kind of lodge ourselves into something.

Joy Curran 10:01

Yeah.

Candice Wu 10:01

A way to describe ourselves, and it’s just so narrow.

Joy Curran 10:06

Yeah, I definitely feel that.

Candice Wu 10:09

And it’s nice to remember that we’re just so many more things than the career that we have chosen or the things that we love or do, but we’re just much more than that.

Joy Curran 10:19

Yeah.

Candice Wu 10:19

So how did your love of horses begin? And how did you begin in doing this work with Equine Therapy?

Joy Curran 10:26

Lovely. Yeah, I believe that it’s something that was placed inside of me since pops before time began. I don’t know. They’ve got a saying that once you’ve got horses in your blood, it’s in your blood.

Joy Curran 10:41

So my parent, my mum side of the family, are pioneers and farmers and of course, they used horses to work the land to make a living and I had a very strong love for the horse. And I guess that just flowed through to me.

Joy Curran 11:01

When I was a child, I remember getting, given My Little Pony as a gift for my birthdays. And that was just my favorite present. And I would spend hours and hours playing with these My Little Pony toys. And I guess I just got this romantic view of the horse and their beauty and their speed. And something about their spirit captured me as well, I think.

Candice Wu 11:26

That makes so much sense about, once they’re in your blood.

Joy Curran 11:31

Yeah.

Candice Wu 11:31

And it makes me think of, hadn’t really thought much about this, but have you — about Centaurs and how human and horse were connected at some point, or is it just a myth or what?

Joy Curran 11:43

Well, I personally believe this Centaur is like a picture or a metaphor. So, the combination of the human leadership and the horse strength and speed and agility combined, I think that just, it’s a picture of wisdom. You know, the Centaur is known for being a wise creature, and to get that oneness with a horse requires wisdom. And so, I sort of view it as a, as a picture something to work towards, to strive towards, to be able to achieve that oneness, the human with the horse.

Candice Wu 12:23

That’s a beautiful image. Well, and I just started writing. And I’ve kind of tuned into that concept of being one with horse, how do you do that? If you personally, or how do you teach people?

Joy Curran 12:38

It’s a journey, it’s not something that is a quick thing to learn, let me just set you up for that.

Candice Wu 12:46

Thank you.

Joy Curran 12:46

It’s a lifelong journey in a lot of ways. And I’m thinking in terms of mastery, because that sense of oneness, like you, can achieve moments here and there, where everything comes together and live got things like being grounded, things like being open to your environment, aware of what’s happening around you. And then, there’s that spiritual element of connectedness as well. And, there’s a communication between you and the horse. And that happens on all three different levels as well.

Joy Curran 13:23

And so it’s that coming together of the communication, the heart space, and that awareness and groundedness at the same time. Does that make sense?

Candice Wu 13:38

It does. It feels like tuning into your own body, and your own all of your senses, intuition, and what’s going on inside of you, as well as with a horse you’re working with or being with?

Joy Curran 13:52

Yeah, definitely.

Candice Wu 13:53

Yeah.

Joy Curran 13:54

And there is that added dimension of the horse who has its own mind. So in feelings, thoughts, and desires, and they may or may not align with yours.

Joy Curran 14:07

So it’s that journey of how can I encourage the horse to accept my ideas, my way of going and what does the horse need from me in order to want to become one with me. Because that oneness is not something that can be forced from a horse. It’s something that can be enjoyed. But it’s not something that can be forced.

Candice Wu 14:32

It’s a really interesting thing to keep in mind. It feels interesting to me right now. Because I think with human connections, we often want to force them.

Joy Curran 14:44

Yeah.

Candice Wu 14:44

And it is clear you can’t with horses. It just feels like something easier to accept, even with, like, cats, you know, when cats just walk away and flick their head, you’re just like, “okay,” when a person does it, we can often feel so rejected or hurt or wounded, or at least that’s, you know, I have had that experience. There seems to be an element of acceptance when it comes to working with horses.

Joy Curran 15:15

I think, because the horse doesn’t have an ego, it’s much easier to accept their actions, and not perhaps take them so personally. And of course, when it comes to forcing, you know, the horse, if we’re going to get into a tug of war, he’s a lot bigger, a lot stronger, even possibly faster, much more aware. So we really can’t get into that, that game of push and pull and forcing, because if it comes down to it, he’s just going to squash you.

Candice Wu 15:53

So that is one aspect that you work with people on communication?

Joy Curran 15:58

Very much.

Candice Wu 15:59

How is the process of working on communication with the horses translate to human relationships? Is that what you’re seeing?

Joy Curran 16:09

Definitely. So, the beautiful thing is that once you’ve learned those skills, and those ways of being, you naturally, then translate them into other areas of your life.

Joy Curran 16:19

I can give an example. But sometimes it does require a bit of focused effort, like there is an element of that natural flow. But there’s also this element of intentionally focus in that direction. And I had an experience where I was really working on allowing my horse to feel comfortable and relaxed in each moment when I was asking how to do things. And I was really working hard at it. And then, my daughter says to me, “Why don’t you do that with me, mom?”

Joy Curran 16:57

So I had a good look at myself, and thought, yes, I actually do need to translate that to the other areas of my life. So when the horse kind of forces me to learn how to do these things that I should be doing everywhere else, they actually, you know, do teach me those skills. And I can translate them when I put my mind to it. And in fact, is aware of it.

Candice Wu 17:20

That makes sense. So I want to just backtrack a little bit and talk about how do you communicate with horses?

Joy Curran 17:27

As I said, there are different levels of communication that we can engage with horses on. So, there’s the physical level, and that’s probably the most obvious. And then the thing that’s easiest to observe amongst the horses themselves. And it’s what you see when you see a horse person, you know, they will put their body in a certain way, point where they want to go, and those sorts of things. So there’s that physical aspect of communicating through the positioning of our body.

Joy Curran 17:58

There is a tonal aspect, in terms of voice, horses tend not to use their voices, much in communication in the wild, more so in domestication. But wild horses, if we go back to the roots, very little voice, it’s used mainly for locating each other over long distances. So when humans use voice, we have to use it sparingly, or, the horse needs to learn to become accustomed to us using our voice, which is quite common these days. And so horses can be trained to respond to voice commands, you can say, trot on, and the horse will actually trot because it’s been trained to respond to a voice command, so we can communicate in that way.

Joy Curran 18:50

And then, there’s a deeper space, there’s a heart space of communication. And because of their sensitivity, somehow, the horses understand what we’re feeling towards ourselves and towards them, and towards our environment at the time, and they actually respond to that as well. And, what I try and do is try and communicate to the horse, the purpose, why are we doing this. And that heart space and setting them up to succeed and give them a purpose, they actually want to do it because there’s a reason to do it. But if I’m just like, do this, and there’s no purpose, they get bored and cranky and angry at me, and like, come on, why do I have to? Do you see, just like a child might?

Candice Wu 19:40

Yeah, it brings me back to my days of teaching art.

Joy Curran 19:42

Right, exactly the same.

Candice Wu 19:45

And adults, we want to know why we’re doing something and not just being told.

Joy Curran 19:49

Yeah, and then, I do believe there’s a kind of spiritual connection that can happen that’s much more difficult to put words to, the spiritual realm is for some, very difficult to perceive. And for those who can set some people are very gifted in and really understand the spiritual realm very well. And those people probably if they’re able to learn to be grounded, they will probably be able to communicate very well with horses because horses do have very big spirits, they’re very spiritual creatures.

Candice Wu 20:27

So when you say spiritual realm, I know it’s a bit hard to describe, but what do you mean by that?

Joy Curran 20:35

Yeah, great question. I guess I’m thinking of a story, an ancient story of “Balaam’s Donkey”, have you heard of that?

Candice Wu 20:45

No, I haven’t, what’s it about?

Joy Curran 20:46

There was a man and he was riding a donkey, and he actually was a prophet of God, but he was being disobedient to God. And he was going off to curse some people because he was getting paid to do it. And he was riding his donkey on the way there, even though God told him not to do it.

Joy Curran 21:07

And his donkey started turning aside and not going the direction that he wanted to go. So he started beating the donkey and the story goes that after the third time, because he ended up getting his foot crushed against the wall by the donkey, and he was really angry at this donkey and he’s hitting him and baiting him, and the donkey opens his mouth and says, “Why are you hitting me?”

Joy Curran 21:35

And for some reason, he’s not concerned with the idea that the donkeys talking to him, but he talks back to the donkey and he says, “Because you’re not going where you’re supposed to be going!”

Joy Curran 21:47

And the donkey’s like, “But there was an angel.”

Joy Curran 21:52

And so his eyes were opened, and he saw an angel standing in front of him blocking his path. And he had a sword in his hand ready to kill him, basically, because he was being disobedient to God. And so, I kind of have this picture of the donkey could see what was going on in the spiritual realm. There was this angel there to destroy the man and the man just had no clue. No idea. And then he was taking it out on the donkey.

Joy Curran 22:24

I think that’s part of it. You know, I believe in spirits and angels and demons and God Himself. And so I believe that and I believe we have our own spirit within us as well, that can connect to other spirits in various ways.

Joy Curran 22:43

And so then, with the horse having its own spirit, we then can connect on that spiritual level, which is different from our natural level, physical level.

Candice Wu 22:54

That deep or unseen.

Joy Curran 22:55

Yeah, beyond understanding kind of level.

Candice Wu 23:00

Yeah.

Joy Curran 23:01

The infinite level beyond time and space.

Candice Wu 23:05

And that can be what it feels like to be with a horse.

Candice Wu 23:07

In my experience, it just feels like it can take me into another place.

Joy Curran 23:13

Beautiful.

Candice Wu 23:14

Yeah.

Joy Curran 23:15

And I believe that can be on the natural realm and the spiritual realm as well, because they’ve done studies that show that they’ve measured the electromagnetic field of the heart of the horse, and depending on the size of the horse, can expand to about 10 feet beyond the horse.

Candice Wu 23:33

Wow!

Joy Curran 23:34

Yeah, it’s quite a big distance. And so then, once you come within that electromagnetic field of the horse, the horse’s heart is actually a lot bigger than ours. And so it can have an impact on our heart.

Joy Curran 23:50

And they’ve done studies where if you look up the HeartMath Institute, they’ve recorded the heart rate patterns of humans and horses separately and together. And what they found is that a human, by sitting in that space of the horse for 20 minutes, by the end of that 20 minutes, their heart will be beating in the same pattern as the horses’ heart.

Candice Wu 24:18

Nice.

Joy Curran 24:19

And since the horses have a lot less ego and junk to deal with than humans do, they usually have a correlative heart rhythm, which is that kind of happy, stress-free, natural, healthy kind of rhythm that we want to have in our lives. So just by being with the horse, you can feel more relaxed just because of that.

Candice Wu 24:40

Mirror Neurons, I would imagine is one part of that, like, we’re mirroring that vibration or is it more —

Joy Curran 24:49

There’s also the influence of mirroring, I think it’s a separate thing. I may be mistaken. It’s not really, I’m not an expert in that field of study. But in my mind, it’s two separate things.

Candice Wu 25:02

Yeah. And it’s interesting, it’s not the other way around in that study. That the horses are well, because as their heart, is much bigger and the radius of the field, the electromagnetic field can be 10 feet. That’s quite big.

Joy Curran 25:17

Yeah.

Candice Wu 25:18

And for humans, I’m not sure what the radius is.

Joy Curran 25:21

About two feet.

Candice Wu 25:22

Is it?

Joy Curran 25:22

Yeah.

Candice Wu 25:22

Okay. So I know for babies and mothers, it’s important to be within 36 inches of mother and baby. So that’s fascinating.

Candice Wu 25:32

I checked out your website. And it’s beautiful. And you share so many different aspects of what a person can work on in their lives, through working with horses and being with them. And I’m saying this also, this list of things, I’m just going to list a couple of these things that Equine Assisted Learning can strengthen —

Joy Curran 25:52

Sure.

Candice Wu 25:52

And enhance. Sense of belonging, safety, self-worth, balance, care, relationships, flexibility, perseverance. Let’s see, self-improvement, creativity, spirituality, a sense of purpose, and you also had on your website, money, family, career, which ones are interesting to you to talk about today?

Joy Curran 26:23

I think family is one of those things because of the dynamic of the horses and living in family groups, and just been this, from a parenting aspect, like working with the horse is a lot like parenting. The things that we have to grow in and overcome as parents are the exact same things that we need to overcome and develop to become a good horse master.

Candice Wu 26:52

And what kinds of things do you mean?

Joy Curran 26:53

Yeah, so emotional intelligence, for one.

Joy Curran 26:58

The horse is looking for a stable, steady, strong leader, but also a leader that’s going to listen and give them a voice. And so, it’s this combination of traits that we need to develop, that confrontation of why are you doing what I want you to do right now? And managing yourself in that? Am I going to react out of my ego? Or, am I going to recognize that the horse is just being a horse? And realize that is a change in myself that I need to make in order for this to proceed in a positive way.

Candice Wu 27:39

Yeah, I can see how that can apply to children or relationships, mostly children, I think in that more that —

Joy Curran 27:46

Yeah. Because the children, their minds are not fully developed. And I guess there’s that similarity, because, with the horse, they don’t have much of a mind. Their brain is actually the size of a walnut. So there’s very little cognitive processing going on, but they have big heart, big emotions, and that, you know, that animal instinct that’s going along there. So, I think children are quite similar, that they have very limited cognitive processing abilities, but they have big emotions and big hearts and things that they really want to do. And so it’s that learning how do I communicate with someone that’s actually not on the same level as me intellectually.

Candice Wu 28:33

Bridging that connection.

Joy Curran 28:35

Definitely, yeah.

Candice Wu 28:37

And can you talk more about the quality of family within the horses or the herd, or I imagine that’s part of what can come into the work with people as well?

Joy Curran 28:51

Yeah, it’s very interesting, because just like people, every horse has its own kind of personality. Some people call it a “horsonality”.

Joy Curran 29:02

You just like, with every family’s going to look different, every herd is going to look different. And so what you’ve got to work with this, what you’ve got to work. So there’s this acceptance of who you are. And there’s this idea of working together for the good of the community.

Joy Curran 29:22

In particular, in wild horses, they’ve always got someone looking out for danger, there’s always someone on the alert, looking out for a lion, or a tiger, or a pack of wolves that are a threat to the herd, the person or the horse that gets that job is the one that’s the most alert. So out of all the horses, they have these little tests, these little trials, to see who is the most alert at any one time. And so, a horse might do something like try and sneak around behind another one, and see if they can surprise them. And if they can surprise the other horse, then, they’re not that alert. So they shouldn’t be the leader right now.

Candice Wu 30:06

It’s interesting, have you seen this happen, or —

Joy Curran 30:11

I’ve seen it on videos. I haven’t really seen it in person. But it’s something that, if you know Carolyn Resnick, sort of watched her training DVD, read one of her books, and it’s something that she observed from spending time in the wild with horses. And it’s something that she’s carried on as a training technique with the horse, to say, “Can you keep your eyes on me? Can you pay attention to me as the leader?”

Joy Curran 30:38

And so that’s something that the leader will do that will say, “Are you paying attention to me? Because I’ve got to say, when we got a run for it.” You know, it’s important. So the horse will be checking in with each of the herd members, “Are you watching me? Are you ready to run if I say go?”

Joy Curran 30:55

So yeah, there’s this constant communication between one another, we can learn from that in our families, I think. Especially today, we just so easily let everyone go off and live their individual lives. And there’s less of that interaction of that, in the family dynamic. I mean, some families probably interact more on Facebook than they do in person, you don’t send a Facebook message, “Time to do the dishes.”

Candice Wu 31:24

Oh my goodness! I think that does happen a lot.

Joy Curran 31:26

It does, it really does.

Joy Curran 31:29

So yeah, I think the horses can be really good examples to us in how to get back to that, that physical connection, and even just interacting with each other, and staying alert to one another’s needs and desires and any potential threats as well.

Candice Wu 31:48

Yeah, there’s a lot of cooperation that you’re speaking to.

Joy Curran 31:51

A lot.

Candice Wu 31:52

Yeah.

Joy Curran 31:53

And there is that sort of, you know: “Are we together?” A sense of togetherness, because they do operate as one unit. Because if someone gets separated from the herd, they are in a very dangerous situation, because it’s very easy for them to be picked off by a pack of wolves, or a lion or tiger. So, having them all together is the sets of safety. And so their survival instinct ensures that they really dedicate themselves to having that connectedness and staying together.

Candice Wu 32:30

That makes sense.

Joy Curran 32:31

To even hear that domesticated horses, they will always be checking in with one another. There’ll be a flick of the ear, you know, a flicker of the eye, they’ll be just like, very slot, subtle body movements. That would be like, “What’s going on? How are you doing? This is how I’m feeling right now.”

Candice Wu 32:52

Checking in here and there.

Joy Curran 32:54

Yeah, they’re very alert, very aware to one another. And so, let’s say, we’re bordering some bush here for that side there, we had an emu come passed the other day. And the two horses in the end patty. They threw their heads up and their bodies became really tense. And then they started to sort of need to get rid of some of that tension. And they started galloping around the patty. As soon as their heads were thrown up, my horse, Chaya down the other end of the property away from all of this. She knew straight away that they have seen something that could be a potential danger. And she was watching them, you know, keeping an eye on them say, “Do I need to do something? At all times?”

Candice Wu 32:54

Yeah, a couple of things are coming to me. One is that, for a long time, for nine years, I lived in Chicago, in the city. And this is such a different life.

Joy Curran 32:54

Yes.

Candice Wu 33:05

And when you get into just being out in the open grass with horses, I’m not thinking about the things I’m thinking about when I’m in the city. I have to be in my body. I have to.

Joy Curran 34:05

Yeah.

Candice Wu 34:06

I have to pay attention to what’s around me. Because who knows? Like a horse could be right there that I don’t know. Or, they don’t know, me, or some other animal who knows? The things that are re-front and center here are just very much bringing me into my body.

Joy Curran 34:24

Awesome!

Candice Wu 34:24

Yeah, it’s really neat.

Joy Curran 34:26

That’s definitely one of our goals, is to help people come back into their bodies. And I think sometimes in everyday life, it’s very easy to almost become ahead, you know, we’re thinking a lot, we’re planning all these different scenarios that may or may not happen, we’ve got to make a living, and all these so much in our heads. But out here, it kind of forces you to be in your body and kind of get a bit of that balance back.

Candice Wu 34:54

So, I’m so curious about how you work with things like abundance and money?

Joy Curran 35:01

Really, the sky’s the limit. You know, my creativity is the limit. But we can do things like projection. So we can say, “Okay, this horse is going to represent money to you.” So, depending on what your goal is, let’s say, someone may not feel worthy of receiving money very much. Okay, so let’s say the horse is the money, what are you going to do to receive that money?

Candice Wu 35:33

Siri wants to help.

Candice Wu 35:39

She says, “What can I do?” Is that what she said? How can I help?

Joy Curran 35:42

Nothing? Thank you. Siri.

Candice Wu 35:44

It’s funny when that just pops in.

Candice Wu 35:45

Yes. So you were saying, what are you going to do to receive that horse? Or to invite them forward?

Joy Curran 35:54

Yeah, and it might be, I mean, we could do any number of things. Let’s say there’s an obstacle, it could be a jump, or it could be something that the person’s constructed themselves, and we go say, “Okay, now, how are you going to face this with your horse?”

Joy Curran 36:14

And it’s amazing, because something different happens every single time that you cannot predict what’s going to happen. So whatever that person needs, is what happens. So it might be, for example, I had this slightly different topic, but it’s the same principle. I had a girl who could not face going to school, she was living at home, she couldn’t leave the house, but she was able to come out to visit the horses. That was her first step of leaving the house. And so that was her therapy. And she just could not face the idea of going to school. And so, okay, so this jump is going to represent going to school, and she’s like, “Okay.” She worked up, she got closer, beat by beat, went forward, went back. And then she finally was able to do the jump. And she was so elated with herself. And she said, “Can I do it again?”, and I said “Of course, you can. Do it again.”

Joy Curran 37:17

And it was actually got a breakthrough for her. And she was able to start going to school. So it can be the same with money, just like, “Okay, this obstacle represents getting money,” like, how are you going to face that? What are you going to do? And then whatever that person needs to do, they’ll do with the horse. Or maybe it’ll be for them it might just be sitting with the obstacle with the horse and going, “This isn’t so bad after all.”

Candice Wu 37:51

And that can just create a shift in their mindset when they’re thinking about it. That’s beautiful. It’s reminding me of Family Constellations work, it’s just adding a horse into the picture.

Candice Wu 38:02

I mean, just briefly, it’s using anything to symbolize whatever obstacle, challenge or desire or another person and with that spiritual component, we can tune into the energy of that dynamic.

Joy Curran 38:18

Yeah.

Candice Wu 38:19

And so even if a stranger is representing something for you, like money or your mother, we don’t have to say any information. And that dynamic can show up.

Joy Curran 38:31

That’s right.

Candice Wu 38:32

And with horses, they’re so in tune as well. There’s some connection, even if we’re holding the intention is my sense that I’m getting.

Joy Curran 38:40

Yeah.

Candice Wu 38:41

But I’m not sure of how you see that?

Joy Curran 38:43

Yeah, there will be patterns that people come with, ways of being that they present to the world, or ways of receiving the world in general. And these usually show up in the work with the horses. Yeah, so I mean, it could be a mindset of the world is a dangerous place. And then someone with that kind of mindset is going to be quite jumpy around the horse, because I do a little safety talk before we start with the horse and explain it.

Joy Curran 39:18

Horses are prey animals and they can be startled by sudden noises and sudden movements. So yeah, that kind of person will be very jumpy, and so then it’s working. Okay, so how can we help you feel safe? How can we help you feel comfortable in this situation? And if they can learn to do that in this situation with the horse, well then, maybe they can learn to do that in other areas of their life as well.

Candice Wu 39:47

Yeah, I work with trauma a lot. And, I’ve been thinking about that, as you’ve been talking, is that something you work with and how? And that safety component sounds like an important part of it.

Joy Curran 39:59

Yes, it is. It’s important to be realistic about the risk and the danger but to also be aware that there’s a real joy and real beauty and pleasure that we can get from interacting with the horses as well.

Joy Curran 40:18

In terms of trauma, is that grounding of the person. So we will always do grounding exercise before we go anywhere near the horses, because you need to be grounded to interact with horses safely, that can be beneficial in itself, before we even get to the horse.

Joy Curran 40:38

Once we’re with the horse, is that learning to be in the embodiment, which is so hard for people suffering from trauma, that for them to learn that they can be safe in their body, beat by beat.

Joy Curran 40:54

So, one of the activities that’s really helpful is brushing the horse. It’s a relaxing, calming, soothing activity, the horse enjoys it, the person enjoys it. And it’s this continual movement, that repetitive, and rhythmic kind of movement. And of course, we understand that rhythm is something, it’s very soothing to the human body, also feels like a level of control you could have —

Candice Wu 41:24

That’s right

Joy Curran 41:24

In relation —

Joy Curran 41:25

Yeah, there’s a lot of control because the horse is just standing still. And the client is in complete charge of where they’re going to brush, how hard they are going to brush, what direction, which brush they going to use? Yes, it’s completely up to them.

Candice Wu 41:43

These all sound like very small and simple things. But even me, I noticed going up to a horse and brushing them. It’s not. It’s like quite a big important moment.

Joy Curran 41:56

Yeah.

Candice Wu 41:56

Of being in that moment doesn’t feel smaller, silly or anything, it’s really powerful.

Joy Curran 42:03

It’s a point of connection. It’s a point of giving and receiving with the horse.

Joy Curran 42:13

Can be, you know, apart from getting the dirt out of the coat you giving them a little massage at the same time. And so it feels good to the horse. And then it feels good to us because we get to be in their presence. And we get to make someone feel good. And that makes us feel good.

Candice Wu 42:31

Yeah, this reciprocal energetic synergy.

Candice Wu 42:36

How about sexuality, and, like sexual development, sexual trauma?

Joy Curran 42:42

I find that horseback riding can be very therapeutic. There’s a close connection between the person and the horse. And because it’s very, you know, that sexual area is very close, and with the movement of the horse, then you’re moving your pelvis and your pelvic region. And that can trigger all sorts of emotions, memories, things that have come up, but because you’re on the horse, you kind of have to stay embodied, you kind of have to stay grounded.

Joy Curran 43:20

So, it really is a huge support to help people and the horse literally will carry someone through that. Well, they’re processing the sexual trauma, because obviously, I would never put someone on a horse straightaway. I always build a relationship between the client and the horse before we get to that point. So by the time a client is sitting on a horse’s back, they know that their friends. They know that the horse cares about them, and it’s going to look after them. And so being able to have that safe space, that supports from the horse, to process that trauma, that’s just huge support for them.

Candice Wu 44:02

I can just imagine that and imagine so many aspects of what the body might be carrying, can release or can be held in that space without us even knowing it. Sometimes just what’s moving through.

Joy Curran 44:16

And you’ll often see the horse will do some processing for the person. So they might start yawning. They might start, you know, dropping their head, they’ll do various thing that might even give a little shake, shake their body.

Candice Wu 44:32

You just got to shake it off.

Joy Curran 44:34

Literally.

Candice Wu 44:36

Or, they’re like —

Joy Curran 44:38

Yes exactly.

Candice Wu 44:38

They’re like, stressed and releasing it.

Joy Curran 44:40

Yeah, very much so.

Candice Wu 44:43

I’ll look out for that. That’s really cool! Yeah.

Joy Curran 44:47

I think so too. I love it. Yeah, that is a real connectedness, in that the horse is going with you on the journey and you’re not on your own.

Candice Wu 44:59

Yeah.

Joy Curran 44:59

And then some understanding that the horse has of what you’re going through, and there’s a sharing in that being with you, supporting you in that, this very beautiful, very healing.

Candice Wu 45:11

It’s so powerful.

Joy Curran 45:13

Very powerful. Yeah.

Candice Wu 45:15

I had a couple of questions, you know, within this area from people on Instagram.

Joy Curran 45:22

Yeah.

Candice Wu 45:24

And one was about Fibromyalgia and to work with that. And how, with the horses?

Joy Curran 45:30

I haven’t so far, but I would be very open to it. If I did have someone with that. Yeah, I guess everyone is different. So we need to go with what that person needed. So I would be asking, you know, what are your symptoms? What generates the symptoms and how can we manage that during our session? And how can we make sure that we’re not triggering you and keeping you safe in the interaction?

Candice Wu 46:01

Yeah, that’s so interesting. Yeah.

Candice Wu 46:03

And the other question was, well, and I think you’ve answered it already in the process of this was, is this something you do over a period of time, like repeatedly? Is that the recommendation when you’re working with Equine Learning or therapy?

Joy Curran 46:19

Great question. Well, it really varies according to the individual, a huge amount. So, for any instances of, for example, violent sexual abuse, that’s something that’s going to require probably multiple sessions over a long period of time to help really, to get full healing and freedom.

Joy Curran 46:44

But then you’ve got some people that just, you know what, “I’m just got this issue right now.”

Joy Curran 46:50

And I just want to help to work through that. And they might only need one session or they might only need three sessions and they’re completely happy, free to go, and live life as they want to live.

Joy Curran 47:01

So, there’s a huge spectrum of needs and what people can afford, as well. So, I don’t like to have that as a limiting factor. I really try and find sponsors for people who really can’t afford it because I really hate the idea of someone not being able to get treatment because they can’t afford to.

Candice Wu 47:24

Yeah, that’s great. What a lovely idea to have sponsors. How do you find sponsors?

Joy Curran 47:31

Good question. Networking. Yeah, just letting people know what I’m doing, the value, the benefit, and then by telling someone’s story.

Joy Curran 47:41

At the moment, I’ve got a girl who’s about 14 years old, she’s in a single-parent family and her mother is living on disability pension and this girl suffers from severe anxiety and is unable to get a part-time job, struggling with school. So, that’s the kind of person who we need a sponsor for. Because she really — there’s nothing she can really do in her current position, to be able to afford that.

Joy Curran 48:15

So when people sort of understand that, Oh, it’s not just because they’re lazy, or they just want to hand out, but you know, there are actual, you know, real-life situations that have put them in that position that they, you know, it’s a real struggle for them. I think a lot of people want to get on board, and they want to help those people because they want to help themselves. And they just need a little support to do that.

Candice Wu 48:40

That sounds like exactly what you talked about with the horses looking out for each other. And checking in. And —

Joy Curran 48:46

Yeah.

Candice Wu 48:47

Who can offer something and who might need it or —

Joy Curran 48:51

Exactly.

Candice Wu 48:53

Fit for something at this moment or another?

Joy Curran 48:56

Yeah.

Candice Wu 48:57

So cool.

Candice Wu 48:59

So we have a little bit of time left, let’s switch gears into challenges. What kinds of challenges do you see in your work or in your life? What are you working with now?

Joy Curran 49:10

Lots of things.

Joy Curran 49:12

There’s a couple that come to mind. I think one is that, is the big one is that, overextending myself. There’s such a big world and there are so many people who need help, and I can help them. But, actually, I have a limited amount of resources to give. And I find that really frustrating because I kind of have this deep belief that I’m connected to limitless energy. And I can actually, you know, do anything and everything. But then I find myself actually being limited. And it’s so frustrating!

Candice Wu 49:48

Yes, you just have a big heart and big desires to be out there.

Joy Curran 49:52

I do!

Candice Wu 49:53

And being in a human body.

Joy Curran 49:55

It’s a beautiful gift being in a human body. But it’s limiting. And that frustrates me.

Candice Wu 50:02

I can imagine that. And I can relate to that a lot, too. Is it something you work with yourself on with the horses? And how do you do that?

Joy Curran 50:13

Yeah. I may take you on a slight tangent, like with the horses as a lot of personal growth that I do with the horses. And one of them is like, this whole task versus relationship thing. I’ve done a lot of meditation, on the whole, like, you know, getting tasks done is important. Relationships are important, which one’s more important? You know, is perhaps, at one time, the task is more important, in another time, their relationship is more important. And I feel like from working with the horses, yeah, there’s this dance of relationship and task. And I think the beauty and the joy comes from doing the task in relationship.

Joy Curran 51:03

But if you’re doing the tasks at the sacrifice of the relationship, unless it’s like an emergency situation, or, you know, health concern or safety concern, I think if you’re sacrificing their relationship, that’s when the task loses its joy. And so I’ve got these little debts of like, I need to get this done. But then, if I rush the horse, I’m going to feel rushed, they’re going to respond to my feeling of being rushed, and we’re going to get into a fight. And it’s not going to be fun anymore, you know, just lost the whole lifestyle that I wanted to enjoy in the first place, that peace and that joy, and that relaxation, freedom to be present in the moment, kind of letting go of all these tasks that could have saved me.

Candice Wu 51:49

And I mean, as a side note, your name is Joy.

Joy Curran 51:52

Ah. It is!

Candice Wu 51:52

Not so much of a side note that is so poignant.

Joy Curran 51:57

Yeah, and that, it’s probably a name of my life journey of, you know, from my history of depression and anxiety, and learning to overcome that, and to live in a state of joy. You know, that’s the story of my life in a lot of ways.

Joy Curran 52:15

And then I had a vision where I was crying out to God to bless me. And he came, and he changed my name to “Joyful” and I went, and I looked it up in the dictionary, and, I’ve realized these three kinds of aspects to the word “joyful,” and one was actually feeling joy, one was causing joy, and one was expressing joy. And so yeah, my new name of Joyful then reflects that not only was my name to be Joy, but I was actually to experience it. And to help others to feel that and to express that joy.

Candice Wu 52:55

Full of joy, joyful.

Joy Curran 52:57

Exactly.

Candice Wu 52:58

In all aspects.

Joy Curran 53:00

Exactly.

Candice Wu 53:01

Speaking of joy, just what is one tip that you have for people or thought around joy and how to cultivate it, or to be in your joy.

Joy Curran 53:12

There’s one thing that will keep you joyful, and that is being grateful and being thankful in every moment. There’s always something to be thankful for. And if you can be thankful, even in darkest moments, then you can experience joy, even in those moments.

Candice Wu 53:30

That’s a really good reminder. I feel it’s also very integrating to feel grateful, like tuning into something I’m grateful for, helps me absorb that and feel into the joy. And then I’m just feeling refreshed for the next thing.

Joy Curran 53:46

And it’s interesting, because joy is an emotion and is a feeling. And so we feel it in our body. And so if we are off in our minds somewhere else, we actually not going to feel joy because we have to be in our body to be able to feel joy in the first place.

Candice Wu 54:05

Where do you feel joy in your body? Ah, everywhere. But mainly in my heart, I think.

Joy Curran 54:10

Yeah, it just feels like life, you know, it just feels like being alive. And when I’m especially grateful, It’s like, this bubble comes out from my heart. And it’s just like, this bubble of joy. And I think sometimes other people can feel it and see it. And —

Candice Wu 54:31

Thank you for that.

Joy Curran 54:32

Thank you.

Candice Wu 54:33

So Joy, is there anything else you’d like to share today? Anything else that’s feeling alive for you, that you want to mention to all the people listening?

Joy Curran 54:44

Something I’ve been exploring this week that came to me is that whole idea of, you know, it’s been proven in research, that forgiveness is hugely important to healing, emotional healing, and even physical healing, I believe, we’re all interconnected. But, there’s that, I kind of felt to take it another step further. So, I go to the Bible to get a lot of wisdom and understanding and there’s this verse that says, “Bless your enemies, and do good to those who persecute you.”

Joy Curran 55:27

I wrote a list of all the people who had significantly caused me harm in my life. And then I found all the blessings in the Bible that I could find. And then, I spoke all of those blessings over each person, one by one, okay, so I didn’t get all the blessings from the Bible, because there’s a lot in there. But, you know, a significant amount that I could grab at that time. It took me about 15 minutes. So, I dedicated 15 minutes to each person to go through and just bless them.

Joy Curran 56:03

And I found that as I did that, I became lighter and things like dark energy left my body that didn’t need to be there. And I just had more room in myself, a lot. That makes sense.

Joy Curran 56:21

So yeah, I think that is just something beautiful, that I’d like to share with people that in your healing journey, to just find those points of pain that people have caused you. And even yourself, if you feel that you causing yourself pain, put yourself on that list as I did.

Joy Curran 56:41

And it was beautiful, because, you know, two of the people who cost me the most pain, were my parents and to be able to say those blessings over my parents from my heart space of meaning it and then realizing that the beauty of doing that means that those blessings then flow on to me, as their child and that interconnectedness. Something very healing, very therapeutic about that, and very joyful about that even.

Candice Wu 57:11

It feels so, I’m not sure, redeeming is a right word?

Joy Curran 57:15

Yeah.

Candice Wu 57:16

Like redeeming of those parts of you, that are your parents, that you’re putting, your giving blessing. And then it just cycles back to you. And it’s something outside and inside.

Joy Curran 57:28

Exactly. I think it’s a good picture of how we actually are all interconnected, even though we may not realize it. And to be able to bless those who cause us pain and mean it from the heart. That’s very freeing.

Joy Curran 57:48

And it means that no matter what people do to you, you can experience joy. Because I can bless my enemies. And honestly wish them good. And just wholeness and financial blessings, and just everything to have a beautiful, joyful life. And that somehow comes back to me.

Candice Wu 58:13

It’s like transforming the energy completely.

Joy Curran 58:16

It is.

Candice Wu 58:16

Of what was there.

Joy Curran 58:17

It really is.

Candice Wu 58:18

Yeah, exactly. Incredibly empowering. Thank you for sharing that.

Joy Curran 58:24

You’re welcome!

Candice Wu 58:24

It’s so, I can feel it, kind of chills in my body. I mean, it’s not a new concept.

Joy Curran 58:29

Yeah.

Candice Wu 58:30

Hearing you speak to it. And your heart coming through from it, makes me want to go home and do that.

Candice Wu 58:39

You know? What’s left over for now.

Joy Curran 58:40

And that’s the thing, like, I thought I’d forgiven everyone a long time ago. But, doing this just kind of took it a step further.

Candice Wu 58:50

Yeah.

Joy Curran 58:51

And just really erased any residual unforgiveness that I didn’t even realize was there.

Candice Wu 58:57

I think that’s the thing about human life, the complexity is that we there are so many things that we don’t know that are there and then we only know them when we know them. And the layers of that can peel open, the more work we do with ourselves, the more expansion that we have, the more joy we have, I find it just wants to push out all the other things. Amen.

Candice Wu 59:20

And now it’s raining here!

Joy Curran 59:22

A beautiful symbol of abundance and blessing! You’ve got showers coming down.

Candice Wu 59:28

I know. I love it. Perth has so much rain, at least this winter.

Joy Curran 59:33

Yes. And I’m quite thankful for that, I think, to have an abundance of water.

Joy Curran 59:39

Yeah. So necessary.

Joy Curran 59:41

Yes. Very much so.

Candice Wu 59:43

So there — I want to just pull back to something you said, about blessing and prayer. And we started off with a prayer and you offer that, I appreciate that. And I noticed on your intake form that you had a checkbox, like, do you want to start with a prayer and I wanted to offer space for you to speak about that. Because I know that even though I’m not, I don’t call myself Christian or Catholic, or use the Bible in the same way you are. I always appreciate a prayer when it comes from love, when it feels like it is a blessing. It’s, you know, it’s a loving gesture.

Candice Wu 1:00:26

It just doesn’t even matter, then, you know what format it’s coming in, but I want to offer that space for you to to speak about that with your clients and with your work.

Joy Curran 1:00:38

Thank you. Yeah, and I think that is important. What you’ve noticed about that coming from that space of love. Because I think love has got to be the foundation of everything we do as healers and practitioners. Because without it, I might as well just pack up and go home, I think.

Candice Wu 1:00:58

Right. Yeah.

Candice Wu 1:00:59

What else is it about?

Joy Curran 1:01:00

Exactly. Yeah.

Joy Curran 1:01:02

So for me, trying to do prayer without that space just doesn’t compute. It doesn’t make sense to me. But I do know that some people do that. But that’s not me.

Joy Curran 1:01:15

So for me, it really depends on what you’re comfortable with. I limit myself depending on what the client is comfortable with. What I experience is miraculous breakthroughs through prayer that wouldn’t otherwise happen. And I’m talking even physical, you know, miracles.

Joy Curran 1:01:35

So I had a young woman who had seen me once, and then she attempted suicide, a month later, unrelated to me. And then she came back to see me as part of her condition of getting out of the hospital that she come and see me again. And so she would slit her wrists across ways. And she damaged nerves that they couldn’t repair. And she said, “Now, every time I move my arm like this, I get this tingling in my fingers. And there’s nothing the doctors can do about it. I’ve got it for the rest of my life.” And I said, “Would you like me to pray about that?” She says, “Oh, yeah, if you want to.”

Joy Curran 1:02:20

And she describes herself as a believer, but not a follower. So she believes that God is real, but she doesn’t by any means try and follow Him. And so, I just said a simple little prayer. And I said, try it out now. And it was still there. And so I said, another prayer. And then, she just like this look on her face. And she was just like, her jaw dropped. And she was like, wow, and she was like, trying to like, test it out.

Joy Curran 1:02:52

And, it was completely gone.

Candice Wu 1:02:53

In minutes?

Joy Curran 1:02:55

Completely gone in minutes.

Joy Curran 1:02:57

So, some healing miracle that happened where the nerves were kind of moved or healed. Somehow, I didn’t even know how, but that problem that she had didn’t exist anymore. So we got things like that.

Joy Curran 1:03:11

I had another experience with the same woman, coincidentally, at a year later, and she was complaining to me saying, I’ve got to give up smoking because she was coughing. And it was really impacting along some — and I just felt impressed. I tried to be very intuitive, and I just felt impressed to ask her if she was interested in doing a listening prayer.

Joy Curran 1:03:34

So a listening prayer means we basically just give God space to speak to us whatever’s on his heart to speak to us. And so she was like, “I don’t mind listening.” So, okay, so I just said a little prayer, inviting God to come speak. And before I’d finished speaking the prayer, this waste removal truck drove up.

Joy Curran 1:03:58

It’s kind of one of those moments where you’re like, “Interruption to my prayer time,” but I looked around and like, waste removal truck? There’s something about that. So I said to her, “Oh, what are you getting? Is anything coming to mind?” And she’s like, “Oh, no,” I said, I noticed a waste removal truck just drove up.

Joy Curran 1:04:19

Sometimes, God speaks to us through our surroundings, in our environment. I said, “I think God saying he wants to remove some rubbish from your life.” I said, “Would you be willing to give him some rubbish?” And she said, “Oh, no, I’m not ready for that yet. I’m okay. That’s no problem.”

Joy Curran 1:04:36

We moved on to the next thing that we’re talking about. A couple of minutes later, she said to me, “I can breathe.”

Joy Curran 1:04:45

I said, “What do you mean, you can breathe?” She’s like, “All the tar for my lungs has gone, I can breathe.” And I was just like, “That is so awesome!” whether or not she was ready to get rid of the rubbish. It was going. Yeah.

Joy Curran 1:05:02

So I get these beautiful, miraculous moments when I use prayer. And so I always like to give people the opportunity to be open to that if they want to.

Candice Wu 1:05:13

That’s beautiful. And it’s really cool that people are just willing to try it sometimes.

Joy Curran 1:05:17

Yeah.

Candice Wu 1:05:18

And can find some miracle in it or something different. Just being open.

Joy Curran 1:05:24

Yeah,

Candice Wu 1:05:25

I am very grateful that we get to be doing a session together. So thank you so much for both this part of the podcast and for the session we’re going to be having. Before we shift gears and end this segment, where can people find you?

Joy Curran 1:05:44

Well, my website is one place, equineassistedlearning.com.au. I’m reasonably active on Facebook. So facebook.com/alignedlivingeal. I post quite regularly pictures of clients interacting with horses or little things I see around the place, little birds and animals and things that show up and that can be quite fun. I also put some events on there from time to time, retreats and things, and I’ve also active on Instagram. I confess, my daughter runs it for me. I’m not that Instagram-savvy. But my daughter is my life-saver there. And yes, so @alignedliving is my tag on Instagram.

Candice Wu 1:06:31

Okay, lovely. I will find you there.

Joy Curran 1:06:34

That’s great.

Candice Wu 1:06:35

Is there anything else before we close?

Joy Curran 1:06:38

I’ve really enjoyed it.

Joy Curran 1:06:40

Some moment of EXHALES

Candice Wu 1:06:44

I feel that too, especially the rain coming down harder.

Joy Curran 1:06:49

That release, clouds emptying out, what they’ve been carrying around. Happens to be a blessing to us. Thank you.

Candice Wu 1:06:59

Thank you so much.

Joy Curran 1:07:01

Can I finish with a blessing?

Candice Wu 1:07:04

Please do.

Joy Curran 1:07:05

May God bless you and keep you. May he cause his face to shine upon you. And grant you peace in every area of your life. May be blessed as he goes in and as he comes out, and in all that you do, Jesus name. Amen.

Candice Wu 1:07:24

Amen.

Candice Wu 1:07:28

Thank you so much.

Joy Curran 1:07:30

You’re welcome.

Candice Wu 1:07:31

Thank you.

Candice Wu 1:07:38

I’m so grateful that I got to come out to the horse farm where Chaya lives and where Joy works to have a session with her, and to have this conversation with her.

Candice Wu 1:07:48

I hope you found this episode inspiring and intriguing, just like I did, and if it does call to you, feel free to check out the video that will come out later this week, highlighting the session that I had with her which is quite vulnerable and deep.

Candice Wu 1:08:03

Joy has a special deal for her Embody Podcast listeners. If you mentioned the Embody Podcast that you’ve listened to, you get to receive 20% off of your first session with Aligned Living, that’s her company. And if you book six sessions, you’ll receive a bonus seventh session free. That sounds awesome. And if I’m in Perth again, I will definitely take that up.

Candice Wu 1:08:24

You can find all this information, as well as Joy’s contact info, in the show notes linked to this episode or you can go to her website at www.equineassistedlearning.com.au.

Candice Wu 1:08:38

It was truly a magical experience to meet Joy and to work with her horse, Chaya.

Candice Wu 1:08:43

Chaya is just sweet and loving and affectionate and will just go for what she wants, moves around with ease. And that just taught me a lot, even witnessing her move around.

Candice Wu 1:08:56

Thank you so much for joining us in this very special episode with Joy Curran in Australia. And before you go, I’d like to invite you to join my newsletter which comes out twice a month. This newsletter offers healing meditations, self-love notes, information about upcoming events and offerings. You can also become part of the Embody Community on Facebook, check it out at CandiceWu.com/embody.

Candice Wu 1:09:22

And if newsletters or the community aren’t your thing, you might check out my Patreon page at CandiceWu.com/patreon where you can even contribute $1 a month and where you can get access to receiving personalized healing meditations that are tailored just for you, for the time of your life right now, and whatever you need.

Candice Wu 1:09:43

Hope you’re all doing well out there, sending my love to you and see you next time on the Embody Podcast.