Candice Wu 0:00

Well, we have a very special guest today, Dr. Rahul Sharma, who is the founder of Funkadesi sharing a special improvisational live musical piece on the sitar, as well as asking the question: How do we insist that we all belong, sharing his double migration story in his family lineage, and here he talks about being an artist, a self-absorbed and selfless endeavor and shares his CHAI recipe which is not a tea recipe but a concoction for how to be in life.

Candice Wu 0:35

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:49

My name is Candice Wu and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:10

This episode is sponsored by the Embodied Healing group that happens once a month. This is a special group for two, four people online that wants to have soul and body support through the month whether you’re yearning to get in touch with your deeper inner wisdom or have some healing with the pieces that are challenging in your life, or to strengthen your vision and what you’re going towards in your life. This group might be for you, so feel free to check it out at CandiceWu.com/patreon. You can also find the links in the show notes that are connected to this episode at CandiceWu.com/rahul.

Candice Wu 1:54

It’s a real pleasure to have Dr. Rahul Sharma on the show today. Dr. Sharma is one of my previous professors at the Illinois School of Professional Psychology, where I studied clinical psychology. When I was in school, I really admired the way he was able to talk about the difficult things, talk about power and equality, what was happening in the room with each of us in terms of how we felt, what aspects of us in our identity were coming into the storyline of who we were in that room or how we felt in life. And he created a very safe space with music, with drumming, with bringing in other ways of connecting that support a universal connecting on the soul level, on the heart level that I really admired.

Candice Wu 2:46

Rahul is an accomplished and passionate consultant, artist, experiential learning innovator, psychologist and expert in the areas of diversity, equity, inclusion, leadership, and growth. His biggest focus is the recognition of the need to create space, unique spaces for people to grow, produce, and flourish and to find their own creative voice as well.

Candice Wu 3:13

I have always felt supported in his presence and his invitation for all of the parts of us to show up, for all of us to belong in the space together, and for our inner parts of us to come forward to the table as a valuable part of us is so healing.

Candice Wu 3:32

So grab a tea, or coffee or something lovely to drink, a CHAI perhaps as you tune into this episode on his sharing of his recipe for CHAI, and enjoy this music and this lovely experience that can bring you in touch with your beauty, your artistry, your sense of belonging, or your heart’s aching for belonging, and the insistence of life that we are all belonging, the insistence that we are all human and have a place.

Candice Wu 4:07

So I hope this episode inspires you just as it did for me and gives you a connection with more of yourself.

Candice Wu 4:17

Well, this episode is coming at a very poignant time for me because I’m stepping into more enjoyment of beauty and feeling the wholeness of beauty, not just the pleasure, not just the good things as we might label them. The things that are pleasurable to experience but the wholeness of life, finding the beauty in all of the experience all of the challenging, sad, upsetting, angering, as well as pleasurable and delightful, joyful, blissful feelings. Holding that all with the sense of amusement and play and treasuring the moment is the beauty that I’m after. And this episode with Rahul is truly inspiring to me right now because I’m also stepping into more of my own artistry to allow my inner artist to capture and receive inspiration and let that flow through me, let that have its own life. And it’s just so inspiring to hear Rahul’s story as well as his music and to hear the roots and the intentions behind his music. It’s very exciting.

Candice Wu 5:40

Hey, Rahul.

Rahul Sharma 5:42

Hey there.

Candice Wu 5:43

Welcome to the show. This is really an honor. I don’t know how this conversation is going to go.

Rahul Sharma 5:55

I hope it goes well.

Candice Wu 5:56

I can’t imagine it not, I just am so curious about what’s going to open up and, you have your sitar there with you?

Rahul Sharma 6:05

Yes, I do.

Candice Wu 6:07

I guess we’ll just start by introducing you a little bit. And right now I’ll just say that you are my previous professor and now a colleague, and you are an artist, a consultant, a speaker, psychologist, and what I have loved about our interactions is the feeling of inclusiveness that I have around you and the recognition of just all these different parts of ourselves in one space together. And many interactions of you bringing your artistry to the healing work and the therapy work that you were teaching me and other students, like bringing in drum circles and just opening up these parts of who you are. So welcome. I just wanted to start with a piece of how I know you.

Rahul Sharma 7:00

Oh, that’s very sweet. And I’m really glad to get that feedback, that was coming across, of how much my identity and just what I bring in terms of the art comes through even when I’m teaching clinical psychology because, for me, those are very integrated.

Candice Wu 7:21

Yeah. Well, I guess I’d like to start with something that really caught me when I was reading a little bit into your bio, is that your story? Sounds like your family ancestry and lineage story of double migration really informs how you show up in the world and your work. And I’d love to hear that story as much or as little as you want to share here.

Rahul Sharma 7:49

Oh, you know, thank you for asking. So yeah, my ethnic heritage is Punjabi, so both my ancestry on both sides, my father’s side, my mother’s side originally comes from Punjab, Jammu, Kashmir in Northern India. And my father’s father wrote down His life story, the year I was born. And when, you know, for me, as somebody who identifies as Indian American, you know, a lot of Indian Americans go back to India, if they have the means, every year, every two years, every three years. And for me, it was going back to Kenya, sometimes three to six months at a time growing up, the best part being missing loads of school.

Rahul Sharma 8:42

So yeah, that was — those quite enjoyable. But, you know, it wasn’t till 1992, I graduated college, and I went to India for the first time. And I also got a hold of my grandfather’s life story that he had written in the year I was born, the stories just blew me away. And so if I may, I can, I’d like to share the story of my grandfather.

Candice Wu 9:14

I would love to hear it. Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 9:17

So you know, growing up in rural Punjab with the British having colonized India and Kenya, he didn’t see any economic prospects for him. In fact, you know, growing up in the village, he didn’t even have a primary education. So one day, he’s visiting a classroom, and he must be maybe 10 years old and the schoolmaster sees my father and sees that he’s standing in this classroom, with these younger boys in class, so he assumed, you know, my grandfather must be from a later grade and ask the boys to ask him a question. My grandfather didn’t know the answer and the boy started laughing. And my grandfather came home and he was incredibly humiliated. And his parents, my great grandparents were so hurt to see him like that they pleaded with the school, can we find a way to give him a basic education. So he started going to school.

Rahul Sharma 10:21

Fast forward a few years, he hears about a distant relative that had found some economic prospect working as an indentured servant for the British on the railway in East Africa. So he was set, this is what I’m going to do and his parents were against it, they were against it, and he just was determined to go, so the day he was leaving, my great grandparents took him to a remote part of the village where they had kept their ancestral savings, and it must have been like $1.50, like, very little money, but they gave it all to him and said: Go! You know, you have our blessing, you know, wishing you the best.

Candice Wu 11:03

Wow.

Rahul Sharma 11:04

So, he ends up working for a Sikh fuel contractor, and Bishen Singh is the guy’s name. And one day my grandfather and some other laborers are walking across the railway and they’re stopped by a British military officer, Captain Macstead. And my understanding is Captain, and this is my recollection from reading this story, is that Captain Macstead said: Hey, you know, I want you all to work for the military, we’ll pay you better. And my grandfather said: Well, we can’t. We’re under contract to work for Bishen Singh.

Rahul Sharma 11:46

And for three years, and this military officer gut was infuriated. And he said: I demand to see this Bishen Singh and, of course, Bishen Singh hadn’t done anything wrong, he just had this contract. But I think that this British military officer, just, you know, like, who is this guy to sort of get in my way? So in the public square, he grabbed Bishen Singh by the beard and shook him violently, and just abused him in public, and Bishen Singh was so freaked out that he just didn’t want to be seen in public after that.

Rahul Sharma 12:24

So soon afterward, the Germans blow up a portion of the railway and this Captain Macstead, blames Bishen Singh, my grandfather, and all the laborers of harboring with the enemy, and they round up all of them. Three of my grandfather’s friends are shot, they’re executed without a trial. And my grandfather was lucky where he got, there was a change in the chief magistrate, the judge, and so my grandfather got a trial. And these military officers stopped my grandfather and said: Look, some of your friends are already dead, why don’t you just say that you guys did it, if you say anything else we’ll kill you.

Rahul Sharma 13:14

So my grandfather gets into the courtroom and he says, these people want me to put innocent Indian names to shame and I’ll never do it. You can do whatever you want with me but I’ll never do it. And then a doctor stood up and testified, saying, I don’t think we can kill him. He doesn’t even look like he’s 18 years old, and so what they did was they sentenced my grandfather to 10 years hard labor and he ended up serving three and got out after three years.

Candice Wu 13:47

Wow.

Rahul Sharma 13:48

That was obviously just reading that and realizing what my grandfather had gone through, and then eventually made his way from the coast of Kenya to Nairobi to work, you know, open up his grocery store, and was able to send my father and a couple of his siblings to England for schooling, and that’s where my father got his Ph.D., you know, had met my mother, my mother was pursuing science and they were living in Nairobi, my father was lecturing at the University of Nairobi, and my sisters were born there.

Rahul Sharma 14:24

And a guy comes up to my father says, you know, how would you like a job at Western Michigan University? And my father was, like, let’s go, let’s do this. So my brother and I were born in Kalamazoo, Michigan. And as I sometimes tell my students, you know, my sisters were born in Nairobi, and I was born in Kalamazoo, and I’ll never forgive my sisters for that. Not to knock the Midwest, but my personal opinion is it’s a little bit cooler to be born in Nairobi. But seriously, just that legacy and that history, that’s a part of, and then, of course, you know, me growing up in a different era in the Midwest, but also realizing that I come from this family background, where this is our ethnic history, but also this is where we relocated to and just interacting with different people, through these different experiences helped to form my interest. And the way I, as you say, show up in the world.

Candice Wu 15:28

Wow, that’s a really incredible story. How did you feel when you read it, your grandpa’s story? That just sounds like such a really interesting experience. You know, not everyone has a piece of writing from their ancestor.

Rahul Sharma 15:43

Yeah. Well, it was an incredible feeling. And by the way, I don’t know if you can hear the dog barking at the mailman.

Candice Wu 15:50

I can, a little.

Rahul Sharma 15:52

Yeah. It’s not you. It’s not your question. I just want to assure you that.

Rahul Sharma 15:57

But well, one of the things that — well obviously that had a huge impact on me just that story, and just, you know, thinking about that, like, what if those kids hadn’t laughed at my grandfather and my grandfather didn’t get that education? Would I be born in India? Would I not have existed because the stars didn’t align that way, you know, what happened? Obviously, you know, we know what would happen if my grandfather had been executed.

Rahul Sharma 16:26

But that palpable awareness about, you know, issues of oppression, in my relatively recent and family history, I think that had a big impact on me. But also, I was reading this at a time, Candice, when I was going through my own identity crisis. Because being born and raised in Kalamazoo, Michigan, I think our family has always had a strong identity of being proud of who we are, and proud of our uniqueness and what we bring to the table. But at the same time, I think I grew up in an era and in a way where I didn’t embrace thinking of myself as a person of color. Or, I didn’t think consciously about how issues of race were impacting me and the way I thought about myself.

Rahul Sharma 17:19

So, this story meant so much in terms of, Oh, yeah, I’m not from the United States. My history, my people’s history is really rich and there’s a lot of, you know, really intense, tragic stories, there’s some amazing stories.

Rahul Sharma 17:40

And the thing is my grandfather visited Haridwar, which is where they have, for generations, the most elaborate bookkeeping of genealogy. You just name the village you’re from, and they would bring out books and they would, you know, list your ancestry. And of course, you know, it’s patriarchal so it was a lot of male names. But because of the year my grandfather wrote this down, you know, our actual family clan name is Punj, not Sharma. So, they’re listing —

Candice Wu 18:10

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 18:10

My ancestors, like, Asa Punj, Diyala Punj, Isher Punj, Jawaharlal Punj, you know, Lalchand Punj, and the last name in that list of nine generations was my name. And so that you can imagine just staring at that manuscript. I was like, whoa, you know, the ninth generation of this incredible list. So that just rocked me to my core.

Candice Wu 18:44

That feels so powerful, and I don’t know, opening.

Rahul Sharma 18:52

Yeah, it definitely created spaces in me that and really, I think fueled my sense of purpose, you know, and solidified what direction I was going in, from college to beyond college.

Candice Wu 19:08

Wow, what a huge transformation because that’s, it’s so a part of you, now, your heritage, who you are, your ethnicity, the culture.

Rahul Sharma 19:18

Absolutely.

Candice Wu 19:19

At least from where I’m standing.

Rahul Sharma 19:21

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think you’re absolutely right. And one of the ways in which I, because I had that moment, where I was like, Oh, my gosh, I’m not from the United States and I realized that nobody would really fuss if I just kind of forgot my, where I came from. Like, you know, my nightmare scenario was having great-great-grandchildren that would one day say, “Oh, yeah, one of my ancestors was Indian, not the feathered kind, the dot kind”, you know.

Candice Wu 19:58

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 19:58

That sort of snapshot terrified me. So I said, I need to take it upon myself to know where I come from.

Rahul Sharma 20:08

And you know, I played music in high school and in college, so bass guitar, and mainly blues funk, starting to get into reggae a little bit and then I thought what better way to reconnect with my culture than with music. So I picked up first the tableau when I visited India, for the first time was studying tableau, which is the Indian percussion instrument. And then I gravitated towards sitar, which is a North Indian stringed instrument, which I am holding right now.

Candice Wu 20:46

Yeah. Would you like to play a little something?

Rahul Sharma 20:50

Oh my gosh, I thought you’d never ask. OK, now I’m just kidding!

Rahul Sharma 20:53

Yeah. I would love to play.

Candice Wu 20:56

I’m just waiting for it. I just can’t wait.

Rahul Sharma 20:56

All right. So just to set it up. You know, like, I love playing bass guitar. I love playing guitar and you know, I think bass guitar brings out the funk in me, the acoustic guitar brings the country-western playing in me, I sort of like another aspect of my identity because I did grow up here. And, but the sitar sort of, you know, allows me to express myself in a different way. So if it’s all right, I’m just gonna do a little improv. I don’t know what I’m going to play yet, you know, because part of the whole thing about the sitar is in improvisatory musical form. The only thing is you kind of need to stick within the set of notes that you’re, you know, deciding upon playing. So the improvisation works best when it stays within the rog, the structure. And I almost think of it as a spirit or as the great Amjad Ali Khan said in a radio interview, a rag is like a personality. And he says, I wish I could live more than one lifetime because it would take more than one lifetime to truly express the depth of just one rag, which I thought was like, that was mind-blowing.

Rahul Sharma 22:15

So in my humble way, I’m going to, I don’t know what I’m going to share. But this is for your Embody Podcast inspired by what we’re talking about right now.

Candice Wu 25:14

Beautiful. Thank you.

Rahul Sharma 25:15

You’re welcome.

Candice Wu 25:18

I loved it. It was just delightful. I feel so at peace right now.

Rahul Sharma 25:24

Naptime.

Candice Wu 25:26

Right. My eyes were closing, I was swinging my body. I know, as you mentioned, the rag, I remember you talking about that in grad school, the personality of it, and how do you tune into what’s the right rag or sense into that when you begin?

Rahul Sharma 25:48

You know that’s such a great question because, from an Indian classical perspective, they say that these rags correspond to different times of the day, different seasons, you know, this rag should only be played between this time and this time of the day. And they say it’s scientifically based, you know, that the frequencies for determined to this way, but then I asked myself, well, if I’m living in Chicago, and I asked this of Indian classical musician at a question and answer, you know, and these rags were formed in India, did they translate across the world? You know, so I play the rag that was supposed to be played early morning in India, when it’s early morning here? Or, am I supposed to do it at the time zone in India?

Rahul Sharma 26:45

So all of that to say, I think there is something to it. But I also think, studying other forms of music like blues and jazz, and reggae and everything, there’s an authentic frequency. Like, for example, jazz musicians have a different set of guidelines. So when you have a jazz musician jamming with an Indian musician, one of them is really sticking within this melodic structure. And then the jazz musician, that the Indian musician, the jazz musician is kind of breaking some of those rules, but sticking to other guidelines, right? And both of these art forms are valid. So, and to me, that’s the band that I started over 22 years ago, that’s been sort of our dialogue between each other, our dialectic is, how do we create something that feels authentic if we’re crossing genres, and not all of the rules lineup? Is there a deeper type of authenticity that can be maintained? And so anyway, this long, you know, and look, this is what happens when you have a psychologist for a musician, I pontificate.

Rahul Sharma 27:57

Why use five words when I can use five hundred?

Candice Wu 28:00

Right.

Rahul Sharma 28:01

This is why Carlos, our beloved congo player always reminds me less talk more rag. So —

Candice Wu 28:07

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 28:08

I try to live by that sometimes. But most of the time, I fail.

Candice Wu 28:14

Well, I’m failing with you. Excuse me. I’m failing with you, because my mind just went into like, Ayurveda, and you know, when you were saying, like, the timezones.

Rahul Sharma 28:24

Oh yeah.

Candice Wu 28:24

And then I was like, in my mind trying to sync up with like, the different meridians of the body and the energy channels, and timing of the day and the doshas, is that something that’s in your, in that in alignment?

Rahul Sharma 28:42

Well, yeah, absolutely. To give you a different answer to the question, I think, and this is where I do think, you know, my interest in psychology comes into play. And like, to me, improvising as an artist, it’s this balance between what am I feeling so very personal, and in a way self-absorbed kind of, what’s going to do it for me? What do I want to express? Combined with a sensitivity and the sensibility about what is needed in the moment? What’s the tone that needs to be struck? Which to me, requires attention to the environment, attention to not only what’s happening inside yourself, but if you’re playing with other musicians, what is their vibe, and how can you complement each other? Or, if you’re sitting in front of an audience, we played at City Winery last night, and we did the same thing where we did some improvisation, we didn’t know what we were going to be playing until we played it. Part of it was, what’s my sense of what the room needs right now? So I’ve always been struck by that, that that combination of like, being an artist, in some ways, is simultaneously a very self-absorbed and very selfless endeavor.

Candice Wu 29:59

Yeah, that really makes sense to me. And with both this and the other piece of what you’re saying, how do you blend the different sounds and this, perhaps rules of that sound genre, or artistry, so that there’s some common or some sort of amalgamation of it? And this just lines up with the whole theme of Funkadesi, insisting we all belong? One family.

Rahul Sharma 30:30

Oh, yeah. Wow.

Candice Wu 30:31

Well, it was right on your website and I was like, that’s beautiful.

Rahul Sharma 30:33

Yeah.

Candice Wu 30:34

Like, that is absolutely, what I see and feel when I haven’t been to your concert yet. But I’ve seen you guys on YouTube, and it just feels like that.

Rahul Sharma 30:46

Yeah, so I would say this. That piece kind of ties in with what I’ve been calling like CHIA recipe. You know, I always tell people, look, you know, I’m Indian, I got to represent. So I’m going to share with you my CHIA recipe. And then I thoroughly disappoint people when I let them know that CHIA is actually just an acronym. So it’s CHAI. And to me, it’s compassion, humility, accountability, and insistence.

Rahul Sharma 31:20

So and I, you know, I’ve been reflecting on this, is things that can be helpful for us as healers in psychology, but also, especially when we’re thinking about issues of diversity and social justice, obviously, compassion, you know, guided by that phrase by Wendy Mass: Be kind for everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Right? And I think when, we never fully understand another person’s context, but there’s a lot that happens when we lead with compassion. And the age is humility. Humility to me is sorely missing in a lot of spaces in my humble opinion.

Rahul Sharma 32:05

You know, I think people get defensive when they feel like they’re being taken down a notch. Well, who are you to say x about me? Who are you to call me out on this? And I think there’s some validity to that. We’re living in an era, well, not even just now, but, you know, I was at the University of Michigan in the era of identity politics, when it was in its heyday. And even then, you know, and now there’s this sense of, well, this is what’s wrong with you, this is what you need to be doing. You know, social media really exacerbates it, and I participate in that sometimes, and it’s, you know, and then I don’t like myself, after working towards like, man, how much of this was me really just needing to take this person down a notch? You know?

Rahul Sharma 32:56

So to me, the humility is, are you as willing to hold yourself accountable to the same degree that you’re expecting someone else to be accountable to you? To me, that’s the humility. And of course, that jumps right into the next one, A is accountability. You know, that phrase that we talked about a lot: intent versus impact. You know, when interacting with somebody, are you more focused on your intentions and trying to defend your intentions? Or, are you able to clear yourself out and hold yourself accountable to the impact you had on other people? So I think that’s another piece of it. And then that last part, which, once again, it was my long-winded way of responding to your thing about like insisting, so that to me, the I is the insistence. Yeah. Wait, what was that question? Oh, yeah.

Candice Wu 33:50

Yeah, I thought I was going to get a cup of tea here, like, a little recipe for a cup of tea.

Rahul Sharma 33:57

Yeah. Where’s that? By the way? I do, I make a kick-ass cup of CHAI as well. So there’s always that option.

Candice Wu 34:06

There’s always that for next time.

Rahul Sharma 34:08

Yeah, there’s a next time.

Candice Wu 34:09

I have a cup of water here. It’s not quite the same.

Rahul Sharma 34:12

That’s so funny.

Rahul Sharma 34:14

But so the insistence is like, it’s nice to be compassionate. It’s nice to be humble. But we are living in a world with unjust systems are always in operation. And you know, that whole thing is like, it’s not possible to be a non-racist, you need to be anti-racist. Because to recognize that racism is operating at every level, it’s so important that you are active in saying that, like, you know, if you’re silent, and you’re like, “Oh, well, you know, I’m just going to keep my head down”, or “I’m going to make sure I don’t say or do bad things”, that’s not enough.

Rahul Sharma 34:52

So insistence can mean a few things. But one thing is insisting on speaking to things that need to be spoken to. Sometimes, you know, nobody brings up that might be sexist, that might be homophobic, that might be whatever and it’s that silence, that sort of ends up colluding with this unequal power system and keep things the way they are.

Rahul Sharma 35:18

So to me, the insistence is like you give sometimes you got to make sure you put things on the table, or you make sure that you keep things on the table when they need to be addressed. So insisting on each other’s full humanity. I mean, I can go off on this whole thing, but like, you know, I think about one of the insidious ways, and I will apparently: one of the insidious ways in which oppression operates in my observation is that some people get the default benefit of full humanity. Right?

Rahul Sharma 35:56

Whiteness, maleness, heterosexuality, all of these things where you’re in the center of that power structure. Right? And again, I’m not talking about particular individuals, I’m talking about systems of privilege. And I think it’s invisible to many of us. Right? That this sense of —

Candice Wu 36:14

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 36:14

Well, of course, so and so gets the benefit of complexity and full humanity. So to me, the insistence is insisting on that full humanity for everybody.

Candice Wu 36:29

I think that’s so important. And, you know, we hear about compassion a lot. Not to, like, I love this combination of CHAI here. Humility, a little less so but —

Rahul Sharma 36:41

It’s delicious.

Candice Wu 36:43

Right, it’s delicious. Accountability, we hear of that a lot. But insistence I don’t, it’s not something that’s just quite present to me. But actually, it has been lately. And now that you bring it up, it reminds me of my time in Ireland recently, last January, where, or this January, where I was working with horses very closely, and not writing but working with horsemanship and leadership with horses and interaction with them, and insistence came up a lot. And I bring this up now because it was such a challenging thing if I maybe got a little activated or something wasn’t on the inside was happening for me to insist on something in the interaction with the horse, but also be responsive to what the horse was bringing, and how they were and not lose sight of what I was insisting on. And then also adjusting if the insistence was too much, like a, five steps ahead of where we were, but insisting on something to be learned.

Rahul Sharma 37:54

Absolutely. It sounds like yeah, mutual accountability. I mean, there, you know, saying what it is that you need to say or indicating what you need to indicate, but also leaving space for what you’re getting back.

Candice Wu 38:10

Right. Yeah. And I think it’s a really challenging thing. This is just what I’m seeing, especially on social media, where we might be holding each other accountable. But doing it in a way that’s just repeating the cycle of the hurt, may be coming with an attack, or it may be perceived as an attack. It’s so challenging.

Rahul Sharma 38:33

It’s challenging. You know, when I hear you say that, it makes me think, which is a whole other conversation, but a model that I find very helpful in both just general psychology work, but also in thinking about the complexities of diversity, social justice issues, is the internal family systems model.

Candice Wu 38:55

Yes. I wanted to talk to you about that.

Rahul Sharma 38:57

Yeah. So, you know, but hearing you say that Candice, you know, there is a language or I should say, a process we can follow where you acknowledge that you have different parts of yourself and each of us do, and how do you take responsibility for those parts without having to feel like that one part of you is the sum total of you, you know? So how do you communicate that a part of you is feeling hurt, a part of you is feeling angry, a part of you feeling attacked by another person. And I find this helpful, just this morning was doing couples work where that was a part of what we were doing, was being able to acknowledge that we have different parts of ourselves, and how do you communicate through that? And again, according to the model, compassion is one of the key ingredients.

Candice Wu 39:58

Isn’t it such a relief to be able to communicate that way? Because when we say, I don’t know, I’m feeling X, Y, or Z. It’s just much more complex than that and to feel like we have to be all in one basket like that is just so reducing. Because we have all these different parts of us that are such a relief to say, Oh, this one part is feeling this, but this one is not, or this one is feeling something else. And it just opens up the whole thing.

Rahul Sharma 40:27

Absolutely.

Candice Wu 40:28

Yeah. So I want to go back to belonging, because I think it’s such a beautiful thing that you’re bringing forward and your band is bringing forward, you have the question that you carry, how do we increase the sense of belonging to each other? And what have you found? What in your experience has been supportive to that?

Candice Wu 40:48

I know it’s a big question? It’s like —

Rahul Sharma 40:50

Yeah, no, well, hey, look, the bands have been together over 22 years.

Candice Wu 40:55

What have you felt in 22 years?

Rahul Sharma 40:59

So yes, I can tell you. I’ll tell you this. I had nothing yet. Candice, I’m waiting till year twenty-three. No, I’m just kidding.

Candice Wu 41:08

Okay, no problem. Compassion, humility.

Rahul Sharma 41:12

Yeah, so — Exactly. But I would say, I think there’s been this shared vibe amongst members of the band, you know, and, of course, a part of me over there. So there we go with our parts, a part of me would love to take all the credit for this. And, I will say, I feel like, yeah, there are definitely some things that I saw as priorities in the atone that I wanted to set. But to be honest, you know, I got so much more, something so much bigger from each band member, which was amazing. But I think this shared sense of, we’re going to accept. If I come from my Indian context, someone else comes from African American, you know, Jamaican, Latino, whatever, you know, cultural context, this recognition that you know what, I am not going to second guess the wisdom of your cultural context. I’m going, in fact, not only am I going to tolerate it, not only am I going to accept it, but I am going to cherish it. I’m going to embrace it as something that, you know, I don’t want to co-opt it, I don’t want to, you know, appropriate it. But I want to affirm you, and what you’re bringing, and your artistic self is bringing to the table. And we do that through music. And I think its allowed a band of 10 people to stay together 22 plus years, is whoever wants to stop something that feels so affirming, I think there’s something about what happens when you don’t feel like you have to leave a part of yourself at the door when you come to the table, to get a seat at the table, you need to leave a part of your identity behind.

Candice Wu 43:06

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 43:07

To me, Funkadesi is a musical embodiment of, you know, and I was talking about this, you know, if we’re on stage, and all sudden, the two, you know, Maninder and Inder in the band start singing the Punjabi song and it wasn’t part of what we were doing before, to see the rest of the band’s natural inclination to just like, drop what they’re doing and support that. It’s just, it’s a beautiful thing.

Candice Wu 43:32

That is beautiful.

Rahul Sharma 43:33

So I think there’s this space. Yeah, there’s a space where we just, you know, we affirm each other. We affirm each other’s cultural context, we accept each other as kin. You know, that’s why that phrase: One family, many children, is there.

Candice Wu 43:50

Beautiful.

Rahul Sharma 43:51

So I would say that’s one thing that we learned.

Candice Wu 43:53

I love it.

Rahul Sharma 43:54

I came across an article recently, I think, on LinkedIn, that was, had a really compelling, you know, model which was saying, instead of a circle, when we create a community, how about a U-shape, because a U-shape leaves room for more people to come in, whereas a circle might be intimidating to some people. And I just immediately thought of the band, you know?

Candice Wu 44:21

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 44:22

And so I was thinking about it and we’re talking with band members last night and came up with this notion, like, enroll in Funkadesi, U, it’s shaped like the U because YOU are welcome. I know, it’s a little cheesy. I try to sneak that in there.

Candice Wu 44:38

That’s great. But it fits.

Rahul Sharma 44:42

Oh, yeah, I was going to say last night, we were sound checking for our show and there’s an Indian woman that’s, I think she was friends or she either worked at City winery, or she was friends with one of the people that was working there. And she’s just like, in a daze, just walking to the stage, and just like I think her spirit just leaped out and she just said, You don’t know how much I need this. This sounds like home to me. You know, and the fact that we’re able to do that for people of many different backgrounds.

Rahul Sharma 45:14

You know, our first college show was January 1997, University of Chicago, co-sponsored by the South Asian Student Association, the organization of black students, the Latin American cultural student groups, and the Persian cultural society. And the fact that first of all, we could, you know, they’re doing an event that these four groups wanted to co-sponsor together. And then for everybody to walk away saying, that reflected me. You know, it’s just, you know, it’s just a beautiful thing. It’s a privilege.

Candice Wu 45:52

The resonance, like, to be for both you and your group and everyone involved in experiencing it to be seen, in a way or to be felt like you were seeing and belong.

Rahul Sharma 46:06

Yes. To be seen, to, yes, to be heard, to be affirmed. Absolutely.

Candice Wu 46:14

Yeah. Beautiful. It’s such a healing space.

Rahul Sharma 46:19

Yeah. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we have many healers in the band, you know, nurses, physical therapists, ophthalmologist, energy healers, you know, it feels every time we play show, it feels like, yeah, and again, I don’t want to sound overblown, what we’re doing or anything, but I’m just saying what it feels like, it feels like a cleansing when we play, and the kind of connection that happens within audiences, it feels pretty special.

Candice Wu 46:51

It’s amazing. I can’t wait to come out to a show.

Rahul Sharma 46:55

Yeah, you got to.

Candice Wu 46:57

Yeah, I know. I don’t know, even though why I haven’t been yet. But thank you for sharing all that. You know, I’m curious, Rahul, where are you now in your journey of yourself and of life, you know, aside from these pieces of artistry?

Rahul Sharma 47:19

Well, the first thing comes to mind is I turned 50 this May. So I’m thinking a lot about where I’ve been and where I’m heading. So, I am married, I have two children, a 10th-grade daughter, and an eighth-grade son, we moved to Evanston three years ago, and really enjoying being a part of the community here, in particular, seeing my children find their place. So there’s a lot of meaning for me in seeing my children follow their passion. And, you know, and my life partner and I, staying close to what we are passionate about, what gives us meaning.

Rahul Sharma 48:10

So, life is really good, you know. And I think it’s become more and more clear to me, we haven’t really talked about this, but last few years, really, the integration of healing and the work that needs to be done around diversity and social justice, inclusion, equity, and music have been coming together in a very meaningful way for me.

Candice Wu 48:46

Merging.

Rahul Sharma 48:47

Yeah, so it started with the band playing, well, I insisted that the band played the multicultural summit, which is you know, APA is the, all the bigwigs in the field of multicultural psychology that, you know, put together this conference every other January, and I went to one in Seattle, my colleague, Charles Davis, Dr. Davis told me about this conference that I should be going to, and the first one I went to, I was just blown away by it. And so I was like, you know, they have this part of it called the elders’ ceremony, where, instead of calling it a Lifetime Achievement Award, you know, I have to felt like, it was, this is so much more of a culturally meaningful way of honoring people’s achievements. So it’s called the elder ceremony and I was just blown away by that ceremony. So much so that when I found out the conference was in New Orleans, two years later, I just lobbied the heck out of the conference organizers saying, we need the band to come down there. And we would love to, we’d be honored to play multicultural drums for the elders’ ceremony.

Rahul Sharma 49:57

So I ended up doing something I never do, which is to take a lot of my own money and fly the band out there. Because it’s hard with the budget that they had, you know, we did a cultural recovery concert at the House of Blues. But still, you know, it was a lot of money in the hole. So I was like —

Candice Wu 50:19

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 50:20

There was a gamble, but —

Candice Wu 50:22

But it was that meaningful.

Rahul Sharma 50:22

It was meaningful and they were honoring that year, Derald Wing Sue, Charles Silverstein, Bonnie Strickland, AJ Franklin, Janet Helms, Florence Denmark, and I knew what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted the band to march with our multicultural drums, announced the elders and bring them all into the main hall of like, five, six hundred people, and then we’re going to line up on the side and do a cultural rhythm every time one of them was being honored.

Rahul Sharma 50:56

So of course, you know, I, it was clear to me what we’re doing. But these folks were like, wait, what’s going on? What’s happening? So, all sudden, they’re being shuffled into a boiler room closet, and you know, and these are people that like, I use in the classes I teach up, like, you know, so that we and a couple of them are looking kind of annoyed, like, why are we standing here with these drummers and what are we waiting for? Because, you know, I was like, No, they can’t be seen until they get announced. And then finally, Derald Wing Sue literally the godfather of the work on microaggressions, like, first I’m whispering to the musicians like, that guy, that’s week three of my class. That’s what I teach in week three. And then —

Candice Wu 51:49

Yeah. I was just thinking that. I was like, I think I know that from one of your classes or something.

Rahul Sharma 51:55

And Derald Wing Sue finally kind of says, what are we doing here anyway? I just whisper sideways, he’s week seven.

Rahul Sharma 52:08

So that explains everything and then the whole thing was such a hit that the President of the American Psych Association, James Bray, comes up to me, so like, we got to have breakfast tomorrow. And over breakfast the next day, he says, I need your band to set the tone for the APA convention next year. So he flew, APA flew us out to do the opening ceremonies in Toronto. And then two years later, Dr. Melba Vasquez invited us to do the opening ceremonies in D.C.

Rahul Sharma 52:44

So my head exploded officially by you know, those two worlds coming together and ever since then, Candice, it’s been really, how do we use experiential multicultural drumming and other arts modalities as vehicles for having much needed difficult dialogues and various topics.

Rahul Sharma 53:11

So just over a year ago, for example, there was a domestic violence conference, it was actually for practitioners that work with male batterers and agencies that work with batterers in Michigan. One hundred eighty people at the conference, it was in Detroit and we end up doing this workshop, an experiential plenary, where I’m addressing one hundred eighty people and the similar question you asked me like, what have you guys learned?

Rahul Sharma 53:40

You know, it’s me, talking about what the band has learned over our decades together, and how it translates to the learning objectives of the conference. And what I said though, is, like, I said, telling you what we learned, we want you to experience it, the only catch is it took us 21 years, and we’re only giving you an hour. But what we did was we had the four drummers of the band, the four rhythm ambassadors, take each group of 35 people. In fact, I took a fifth group with tambourines and cowbells because you can never have enough cowbell. And —

Candice Wu 54:21

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 54:22

So you — thirty-five people are going to go out with Carlos and he’s going to teach you the Latin Clave rhythm, you thirty-five people are going to learn the Brazilian Samba rhythm, you thirty-five people are going to learn the West African Lamba rhythm and you thirty-five people are going to learn the North Indian Bhangra rhythm. And what we’re going to do is after fifteen minutes, we’re going to collect all the groups into the big room, and we’re going to try to create the Indo-Afro Caribbean rhythmic connection.

Rahul Sharma 54:51

And it was amazing. It was, you know, people came together, I have a video of it on YouTube, and it was just an incredible experience and the best part was me standing there in a room full of exhilarated folks asking the question, what did you experience? And I wasn’t asking for one-word responses. But the crowd just started giving one-word answers like joy, diversity, hope, empowerment, you know, all of these words that they were just, you know, feeling from the moment and then I got back to the podium and put up a few slides and was able to connect what they were saying and what the experience was to some of the ingredients, you know, like the CHAI recipe and the different things that we have reflected down over the decades.

Candice Wu 55:47

I can see how that’s a huge cleansing.

Rahul Sharma 55:49

Yeah.

Candice Wu 55:50

It’s like the group cleanse within the experience, and that just opens up.

Rahul Sharma 55:56

Absolutely, and then in the afternoon, we did smaller group sessions, still, maybe thirty people and this is where I integrate what I do with the band in our own style of doing things with a protocol that I got trained on, which is called HealthRHYTHMS by Remo drums, where they really sort of brought together the best of practices in facilitated drum circle, movement, work, as well as what music therapists have been doing for decades.

Rahul Sharma 56:27

So imagine being in a circle, everyone has a drum, and you say, can you share your name and do you mind showing us what your name sounds like on the drum? And then as a facilitator, you’ve asked after they drum their name, do you mind if the group drums your name with you? So right from the get-go, just that exercise and as a facilitator, I just, and a musician, I just loved learning this protocol, because what a beautiful way of a sonic affirmation of every person’s identity.

Candice Wu 56:59

Yes.

Rahul Sharma 57:00

And then there’s the whole element of like, the neuropsychological processing that goes beyond just using your intellect, drumming together —

Candice Wu 57:10

The mirroring, the resonance. Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 57:13

Yes, so much, so much happening.

Candice Wu 57:15

And when someone’s drumming to what you created.

Rahul Sharma 57:18

Exactly.

Candice Wu 57:19

What you shared of yourself. Wow.

Candice Wu 57:22

It reminds me of something that’s been very healing for me is tuning into either my own or a piece of my ancestor, that I perceive what their soul song is, or what my soul song is, and however that sounds or what my soul dances like, with the movement that might come through, that really speaks to me, and I love this exercise with the drums, with your name. It’s beautiful.

Rahul Sharma 57:51

Whoa, that’s so cool, Candice, I’m gonna have to steal it.

Candice Wu 57:55

Go for it. I might steal yours as well.

Rahul Sharma 58:00

Right, of course. Hey, man, there’s that phrase in the blues if you like it, steal it.

Candice Wu 58:04

Exactly. And you know what, I was thinking you might, I know, it kind of sounds stupid but you might be starting to call your drum circles, Drum U’s.

Rahul Sharma 58:14

Drum U’s. Oh.

Candice Wu 58:16

Drum U’s. Like the U shape? But then it sounds a little awkward, right?

Rahul Sharma 58:22

No. I’m already planning. No, I like it.

Candice Wu 58:26

Trying to figure it out.

Rahul Sharma 58:28

Yeah, I’m trying to figure that one out. But no, that sounds great. After reading that article, it made me think of instead of Drum circles, absolutely the Drum U’s, which leaves an open space. And also I, last multicultural summit, I went to in January, there was an indigenous woman that was talking about indigenous practices in Canada and she was, and healing work and she was talking about how important it is to not just be face to face with somebody to sort of be adjacent to somebody for a couple of reasons. One is to allow yourself to not necessarily absorb entirely another person’s energy, but always to remind yourself that there’s you, the other person, but there’s the earth, that’s holding the two of you. And so that you, kind of almost goes along with that, that notion of like, you know, we’re not just enclosed in this circle. But we’re, there’s that sort of acknowledgment of that, that fourth side or whatever, however, you want to describe that.

Candice Wu 59:35

Yeah, I love that, especially the earth that’s holding you as that resource that’s always there, the connection.

Rahul Sharma 59:44

Absolutely.

Candice Wu 59:45

Beautiful.

Rahul Sharma 59:46

So I told you that one exercise just real quick the — I have, I was able to do a workshop with some colleagues and artists, friends of mine, for YWCA, where it was, the theme was reimagining racial justice. And we did a drum circle format and I incorporated some of this work, you know, some of the remote health reasons protocol, some of what the band members do, and what they bring to the table.

Rahul Sharma 1:00:17

And being in a space where you’re playing music together and also being insistent, you know, in terms of the facilitation questions about our own growing edge, around issues of oppression, about parts of ourselves that, you know, are still hung up on aspects of this work that are under work, and that we really need to work on, to me, it’s so powerful. That phrase, breaking bread together. So you know, different analogies, like you know, when you make music together, and then you’re more open, and then you have these conversations. I, it’s been my experience that we can go a lot further when we have opened things up in this way and we’ve played together musically.

Rahul Sharma 1:01:09

It still requires, I think, some heavy-duty facilitating because, you know, somebody still might not say, they still might say something or do something that’s really ignorant or like have a part of them that’s really dealing with some hateful, ignorant stuff. But creating a space where we can address that, I think is really important. And I appreciate what the drums do in that setting, when we do it with a lot of care.

Candice Wu 1:01:39

I really appreciate that you’re highlighting this, and how you’re bringing that experience to so many places, it makes so much sense to bring a coming together experience that anyone can access, a language we can all feel into and then going into the harder thing gives so much more grounding and resource to the thing you want to perhaps tackle together, that might be more uncomfortable.

Rahul Sharma 1:02:11

Exactly. But again, Candice, it goes back to the humility and the accountability and the mutual accountability where, if I truly am living by that notion of like, you know, it could be you calling me out on another issue. You know, it’s not coming with this holier than now, like, yeah, I mean, I often find myself that I’ve thought about certain things a lot longer and harder than other people have. But when I think of all the jackass things I’ve said and done, and still, you know, and painful reminders that it’s an ongoing process for me. It’s hard for me to feel genuine in saying, well, here I am the expert and you need a tune-up.

Candice Wu 1:02:55

Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 1:02:56

And that’s the end of the story. You know, is there a way we can —

Candice Wu 1:03:02

Right.

Rahul Sharma 1:03:02

Be insistent with — and you know, if somebody’s going to put up their walls of defensiveness, hostility, shame, other forms of resistance, that’s on them, but I’m going to let them know that I’m coming at them with a great deal of respect. But again, insistence at the same time.

Candice Wu 1:03:21

Well, it just makes me think about the idea that if we disconnect from parts of ourselves, like a past self, that has been a jackass or whatever, or maybe has been ignorant, or even parts of ourselves now, and just go from one part of ourselves, we can be really arrogant.

Rahul Sharma 1:03:42

Absolutely.

Candice Wu 1:03:43

Or, holier that’s what you said, you know, but if we are embracing of all, if we can, you know, many parts as we can, it’s like, how can you possibly come with disrespect or feeling better than someone else? Because we’re all human, we’ve all been there in some way, in some format.

Rahul Sharma 1:04:07

Exactly.

Candice Wu 1:04:09

Thank you so much for sharing today. I love hearing that you’re from Michigan. I’m from Michigan too. I don’t know if you knew that. Yeah.

Rahul Sharma 1:04:18

Where in Michigan?

Candice Wu 1:04:19

I grew up in Rochester.

Rahul Sharma 1:04:22

Oh, cool.

Candice Wu 1:04:23

Yeah. So in some ways, we’ve had a similar crossover of immigration to Michigan and the feeling of it would have been cooler to be born somewhere else. I can resonate with that, too. But now that you’re, I know you’re from Michigan, it’s even better to be from Michigan. But yeah. Well, is there anything else you want to share today? Is there anything else that’s bringing you alive right now?

Rahul Sharma 1:04:51

I think this is it and maybe if you don’t mind while you’re rolling the credits, haha, with this audio podcast, I’ll maybe just play another short something.

Candice Wu 1:05:02

I’d love that.

Candice Wu 1:05:03

Yeah, I’m just going to sit and listen and then credits can roll later if we want it to cross over.

Rahul Sharma 1:05:09

That sounds great.

Candice Wu 1:05:10

Or there — silence might be great with it.

Rahul Sharma 1:05:12

Right. Listen, thank you so much, Candice. It was really, it was so much fun talking to you.

Candice Wu 1:05:19

It was so much fun talking to you, too and thank you for all the wisdom you shared and just your energy. And I appreciate you. Thanks.

Rahul Sharma 1:05:28

Thanks.

Candice Wu 1:06:53

I love these questions that Rahul’s asking, how can we insist on belonging? How can we create more spaces where we can bring more of ourselves? And what do we do to have the difficult conversations? How can we play with it and connect on different levels?

Candice Wu 1:07:11

Thank you so much for joining us today and I want to thank Rahul for bringing his life and his sitar and his music, and the beauty in him in sharing that with us today. It’s truly a special thing to be able to invite my teachers on the show because they have influenced me just being in their presence gives me an energetic download of new information of love, of new ideas and ways of being that I’ve taken in along the way.

Candice Wu 1:07:41

So I thank Rahul for that and for being part of my own journey.

Candice Wu 1:07:45

I appreciate you joining us to connect in on this beauty and to enjoy this with me. It’s such a treat to have this music on the show and I hope you enjoy this tail end of the show where we just spotlight Rahul’s music in this improvisational, creative, lively moment.

Candice Wu 1:08:05

Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and if you’d like to know more about the podcast or receive self-love notes and newsletters and information from me, feel free to connect up with me on my website at CandiceWu.com/embody. See you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

This episode is with special guest Cynthia Lubin Langtiw, who is a Haitian-American licensed clinical psychologist and professor, and in this episode we talked about knowing and unknowing, being known how we decolonized knowing and qualitative research, being a mother, as well as believing in yourself and the power of your own being, to bring forth impact to the world.

Candice Wu 0:26

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:39

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:03

It is with great honor to introduce our guest today, Dr. Cynthia Lubin Langtiw. She’s just a wonderful, vibrant human being who cares so much about people and I appreciate so much her ability to just be herself, bring who she is to the table, and to love people around her and give the gifts that she is in herself.

Candice Wu 1:30

I especially enjoyed the pieces of the conversation around her alter ego and her grandmothers and the lineage and what gifts they’ve given her and how she’s shaped her way of seeing the world because of her ancestry.

Candice Wu 1:44

Cynthia is a Haitian-American licensed clinical psychologist and full professor in the Clinical Psychology program at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology and she’s also served as a supervising psychologist at Mount Sinai Hospital and currently consults with their doctoral clinical training program. And on top of that, she’s also a volunteer psychologist and clinical supervisor with the Marjorie Kovler Center for survivors of torture.

Candice Wu 2:12

She provides training on psychological trauma for the Young Center for Immigrant Children’s Rights and her clinical work reflects a strong systemic and community sensibility that integrates a relational cultural perspective. So much of our clinical work has been helping youth, adults, families, and communities utilize their own resources to heal from trauma. And in this conversation, you’ll hear exactly that, especially at the end of our conversation, where she speaks about uncovering our own knowing and trusting in who we are. So let’s jump into the conversation.

Candice Wu 2:52

So, Cynthia, I’m so thrilled to have you here today, you are Haitian-American, licensed clinical psychologist, and your full professor at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, among other aspects of your professional career where you’re a volunteer psychologist and clinical supervisor at the Kovler Center. And yeah, you have just plenty of conversations in the air around youth violence, betrayal trauma in the black community and around the world, supporting families and children in natural disasters, advocating for families, healing trauma, working with couples. And the first question I have for you, Cynthia is, tell me about Harriet the Spy, your Alter Ego?

Cynthia Langtiw 3:39

Oh, I love that question. So, you know, as a kid, I just lived in my head, and particularly as an immigrant child, just trying to figure out the world, books were everything for me and there are so many wonderful characters with whom I related and connected. But Harriet The Spy, just sparked for me, this inquisitiveness, right, there’s a part in the book where she’s writing in her little notebook, and she says, “I want to know everything, that is why I am a spy.” And that reverberated in my core, because I just thought, that’s me. I want to know everything and in large part, that’s why I’m a clinical psychologist.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:32

So, and I think that connecting with the strong female who had this deep curiosity and said that curiosity in bizarre and strange ways, resonated for me so deeply as a child and continued, you know, on my quest to know, and my continued quest to know as a clinical psychologist, but also as a researcher. I think that that stays with me still, like that desire to deeply know, but also be known. You know?

Candice Wu 5:03

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 5:05

So yeah, that’s me and Harriet the Spy. I read this like, every couple of years.

Candice Wu 5:12

I can see that she, Harriet the Spy in you is just well alive and it feels like she’s just thriving.

Cynthia Langtiw 5:19

Yeah, absolutely. I would hope so. Yeah.

Candice Wu 5:23

Oh, that’s wonderful. Yeah. And how do you see yourself on your journey right now?

Cynthia Langtiw 5:29

Yeah, so I’m at an interesting place in my journey both as a professor and there’s a clinical psychologist. And also, as a researcher, you know, there was a lot of push as I was moving towards promotion and there was a way that once I sort of, achieved full professorship, if you will, and there are so few women of color, who do. That part hit me too, that it wasn’t only for me, but for so many, and I felt my grandmothers, you know, who are no longer with us physically, but sit on my shoulders, right? But then also lift up my arms.

Cynthia Langtiw 6:06

And there’s a way that in my journey, now, I’m thinking about, well I’ve always thought about what I have to offer, right, what I have to offer my clients, what I have to offer my students, but there’s a way that I’m thinking more broadly about what I have to offer the field and that can feel a little heavy, like, who am I to think that I can offer the field of psychology something?

Cynthia Langtiw 6:29

And yet, there’s so much that I’ve been offered and learned and engaged. And I feel like I’m in a different place of scope, and impact in terms of what I can offer. And that’s where I am now. I’m at this precipice where all of these ideas have been swirling, and I’ve been working and doing an offering. But all of these ideas are swirling and converging, in really interesting and beautiful ways. And figuring out what’s next for me, figuring out how I want to use my scope of influence and knowledge to really impact in the way that I think that I’m meant to impact and to not shrink back from that, because even saying that out loud, feels hottie, right? And there’s a way that as a black woman, I’ve been taught my place, if you will, or I guess books have tried to teach me my place.

Cynthia Langtiw 7:27

I’ve embodied my grandmother’s places, if you will, and understood that there’s a reason that I am here in this space, and embodying what I do, and that my life is meant to impact in a particular way and that I, not only can I not shrink back, but I have a moral obligation to not shrink back from the space that I meant to step into. And that’s a lot to hold.

Candice Wu 8:00

It is.

Cynthia Langtiw 8:02

You know, I’m a mom of two boys and of course, that’s a role that I embody, hopefully, as a primary role, they see that, but then balancing all of these other ways that I think that I’m meant to be in the world, and in our field and in people’s lives, but then also, on pages and other places, is the precipice I’m on right now.

Candice Wu 8:29

Yeah, and it’s like, it feels like almost like a beautiful, I don’t know, challenge, a beautiful struggle. And like the experience of not drinking back.

Cynthia Langtiw 8:40

Yes.

Candice Wu 8:40

And being in yourself, being with what you have here. And I’m reminded of, I watched a video of you speaking

Cynthia Langtiw 8:49

Oh, my.

Candice Wu 8:50

Yeah, I’ve got a couple of them. But one of them, you shared a quote by Margaret Mead: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.

Cynthia Langtiw 9:09

Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:10

I’m just bringing that back now, as you’re saying, “Who am I to think I can make an impact?” and “who are you not too?”

Cynthia Langtiw 9:17

Right.

Candice Wu 9:17

I also wonder, when you said that quote, in that speaking engagement you had, you teared up almost or?

Cynthia Langtiw 9:27

Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:27

Yeah, and I wondered what touches you about this?

Cynthia Langtiw 9:30

You know, it’s funny that you say that, because I feel really emotional right now, is thinking about that, because I think there’s a way that we can feel so disconnected and alone in this world. And feel like it’s so big in particular, in this season, in the US, where it can just feel somewhat hopeless, right?

Candice Wu 9:53

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 9:54

And it can feel like, “Whoa, what is my smile going to do? What is my banding together with my students going to do? What is my, working in my coalition for immigrant mental health going to do?”

Cynthia Langtiw 10:08

And then it reminds me of every single movement, every single change that’s occurred has happened, because people believed and came together and it wasn’t necessarily a, you know, a huge swell of people. But as people who have a sense of social justice, a sense of integrity, a sense of purpose, and they come together in that purpose, and they band together, and they lift each other up, you know, as one person sort of starts to not believe that lifted up by one, and they’re the ones who lift up the next day.

Cynthia Langtiw 10:46

And I think of all of the social movements, I mean, it’s Black History Month, right? And then having these conversations with my kids, you know, I think about our, you know, current immigration situation, crisis, emergency, there are many ways that we can think about it. But I think about the work that I’m doing with the Coalition on Immigrant Mental Health, and how each day, you know, we’re chipping away at some of the injustice that’s going on and it is actually making a difference. I think of all the movements across time, and space, right., and how it was always spurred on by a small group of people who said, “You know what, we’re not going to stand for this anymore.” Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 11:35

I think of my work right now, part of what like, really, I was at a conference, I’m on the board of Point Source Youth, and our aim is to end youth homelessness. And there’s a way that when I first you know, became a member of the board, I thought, yeah, we’re going to work to help some kids who don’t have a home and in that moment, looking at that room, at that conference, when I read that quote, what got me emotional was, here was 500 people, right, and I looked out into the audience and each and every one of us, in that moment, believed that we would end youth homelessness in the US.

Cynthia Langtiw 12:20

And there’s no way that was, so like, I felt like, I was levitating. And I believe that wholeheartedly today, that we will end youth homelessness, and it’s this group of people who’ve been chipping away in their offices with one or two trans youth who don’t know where to go or what to do, or who are living on the street or, and for us to all come together, having had hopeless moments. But in that moment to look into each other’s eyes and say, this room of people will end youth homelessness, period, full stop.

Candice Wu 13:03

I can even feel that here.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:05

Yeah. Heavy.

Candice Wu 13:06

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:07

It’s like, oh, my gosh. And that’s the thing, like, that’s what happens. That’s the power of love and purpose, and community.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:19

So yeah, I get emotional, whenever I think about it. Right.

Candice Wu 13:23

Yeah. It’s incredible. And just that little desire can become united with so many other pieces of people that are desiring that, too. It just grows.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:36

Yeah, absolutely.

Candice Wu 13:39

So we want to swing back to knowing and Harriet the Spy, and wanting to know everything in the world, and you are working on in your qualitative research, ways of knowing.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:54

Yeah.

Candice Wu 13:55

Sounds like you’re challenging ways of knowing. Can you tell us about it?

Cynthia Langtiw 13:57

Yeah, there’s so many, there are a couple of different things floating around for me, and one of them is this idea, I have a couple of ideas for some books that I think will help us to tap into how we transform. So one of them actually came from one of my students, who is now a professor and teaching at the Chicago School. But, it’s called Interlogs and the whole idea of an Interlog is a process that happens while you are researching that transforms who you are and that in turn, transforms the work. So I’ll give you an example of this Interlog. I’ll give you two briefly.

Cynthia Langtiw 14:37

So the student of mine, now professor, Dr. Elena Pinkston, was working on this beautiful qualitative dissertation, and which she was asking first-time mothers, their phenomenological experience of showing. And that was the title of her dissertation, which I thought was great at the time, and she disclosed this in her dissertation, so I feel comfortable disclosing it with you, and your audience.

Cynthia Langtiw 15:04

Her aunt, who was close in age to her was pregnant, and so she’s doing this dissertation, talking to pregnant women and her aunt is pregnant, it’s really exciting. And during her dissertation process, her aunt actually loses the baby and it was devastating. And she had to hit pause, and she didn’t know what to do with that, because here she was continuing in these interviews with these women who were so excited and their babies would be born. You know, it was a really hard time for her. So she had paused and she wrote a chapter called Interlogs. And it was how she wrestled with her own, right, transformation, as a result of the interviews of these women, but also this event that happened in her family’s life.

Cynthia Langtiw 15:56

And so she wrote this chapter called Interlog and she included it in her dissertation. Because it indelibly influenced the way that she viewed the rest of the interviews, but also how she interpreted her data, understood her data, and then moved forward with the dissertation. And so this idea of interlogs became so powerful to me. And I, you know, I’ve had several other students who have had significant challenges and the way that it comes up, it’s really interesting. It’s typically a time delay.

Cynthia Langtiw 16:33

I had another student who is Muslim and was writing a dissertation looking at millennials Muslims and the impact of 9/11 on their day to day lives. Right. Beautiful dissertation, really important, necessary needed, we need to understand their phenomenological experience.

Cynthia Langtiw 17:00

Well, it took the student much longer than she had anticipated and there were all these stories that she told herself, right, about why, about her writing, about not being committed, about all kinds of stories. But then when we sat down, she actually completed the interviews. She’s a great writer. And we’re trying to figure out like, why this wasn’t getting done. Well, she was interviewing people who looked like her, who had her experience, at her dissertation defense, we ended up getting her moving and have that conversation and had a conversation, which was actually an interview about her own interlog, her own transformation, her own reflection. And we’re able to move her through the dissertation successfully.

Cynthia Langtiw 17:55

And she’s out practicing now doing wonderful work with her community and with many others as well. But that would not have happened with that level of reflection on the stories that she was telling herself.

Cynthia Langtiw 18:09

I mean, to give you a sense of it, like, during her dissertation, we had her read some of the quotes, some clips, if you will, from her dissertation and she got so choked up that she couldn’t. And so I took the transcripts, and I want to read, and I got choked up, and I’m not a millennial-Muslim woman, you know, like, it was the things that she was reading, the stories that she was being told were so heavy to hold as a researcher, and they were her own story, right, in many ways.

Candice Wu 18:44

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 18:45

And it was critical for the transformative process of the dissertation, the transformative process of doing research to be codified, and to be reflected, and to understand how we are embodying a new way of being a researcher, as a result of what we’re learning in our research. We can’t be removed. We’re not removed. This idea that we’re this objective researcher is a fallacy, and I want to debunk that.

Candice Wu 19:21

Oh, thank goodness, because it’s like, we are absolutely part of that story of what we’re seeing and researching, and —

Cynthia Langtiw 19:30

Of course.

Candice Wu 19:31

It always comes from a specific lens. So the more we can be honest about that and congruent with that, sound like we can glean so much more out of the whole understanding.

Cynthia Langtiw 19:42

Yeah, and clarifying our own lens, right? In clarifying our own lens, and I teach qualitative research, and I have this soapbox around validity and rigor, and it’s not because I want my students to get published, although if they want to, that’s great. But for me, right, clarifying one’s lens, which is for me, what rigor and validity and research, in general, is about, is about the primacy of the voice of our participants. And our participants come to us, and they share these powerful stories, and they trust that we will represent them in a way that will make a difference in the world. And it’s critical as researchers, not just qualitative, I would say quantitative too, as researchers, that we clarify our lens. So the clarity of the data is the participant’s voice and not our own. So —

Candice Wu 20:41

Yes.

Cynthia Langtiw 20:41

Yeah, that’s all so important to me, and particularly, because much of the research that I end up doing, ends up being with groups of people who have traditionally been marginalized, or treated poorly, or targeted in a negative way. So people of color or other folks in the world, and so for me, the idea of being a researcher and training and teaching researchers who would see people holy, who would, you know, have a sense of sacredness, of somebody offering you their story or their information, and take that seriously it’s so important. Decolonizing methodologies, right? I’ve been wrestling with that. Like, what does it mean to decolonize our work?

Candice Wu 21:13

What does that mean?

Cynthia Langtiw 21:34

Yeah, exactly. I’ve been wrestling with it a lot. In many ways. It’s about understanding the unique, but also situated perspective of the person who’s sitting in front of us, but also recognizing the ways that we’ve been steeped in a particular way of knowing, right, and how to unpack for myself, for ourselves, that way of knowing.

Cynthia Langtiw 21:59

So I’ll give you an example. I was having a consultation around the dissertation with someone this week and so this person has a wonderful dissertation topic, they, in their dissertation chair have a different idea about how to work through it. But their question is a clear qualitative question and so this person’s question was, well, what group will I compare it to?

Cynthia Langtiw 22:28

And I said, “Well, who says you have to compare in this particular dissertation?

Cynthia Langtiw 22:35

You know, this group of people, this targeted, marginalized group of people is one, that you have a unique niche perspective on. You have a sense of why they haven’t been asked these important questions about their teaching strategies, right? Why do we need to compare them to another group? Right? Their voice is uniquely important but there’s a way that this person has been steeped in sort of the capitalistic Adam Smith The Wealth of Nations, compare, contrast, there has to be a winner, there has to be a loser. Right? Like, all of those narratives are so deeply ingrained and for me, decolonizing methodologies is unplugging from that and saying, “This group of people has a really important story to tell us. Let’s sit and focus on them.” Period. No comparison.

Candice Wu 23:32

Yes. Well, and I think about what you’re saying, with research and just broadening this to the idea of life, and you know, us, as researchers in our own lives, us, interacting with people and seeing what happens, us decolonizing our ways of seeing ourselves and others and the way we looked at what we think we know, and how our Interlog like that, if I’m getting it right, like, what goes on in us that influences how we see the other person?

Cynthia Langtiw 24:06

Yeah, exactly.

Candice Wu 24:08

Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

Cynthia Langtiw 24:11

Yeah, you know, taking a step back, for me, the whole idea, one of the reasons that it’s so hard to unpack decolonization is because, I, myself have been so steeped in my ways of knowing, right? Like, I kiss my boys’ goodnight and say, you’re the best, and my kids are great. They’re awesome. They’re like, why do they have to be the best?

Cynthia Langtiw 24:37

Right? That’s even like, troubling that language for myself?

Candice Wu 24:43

Right.

Cynthia Langtiw 24:44

It’s another way of traveling the idea of decolonizing in my everyday life, you know, that the competition, right, like that idea, is a very Western way of being and so how can I think about other ways of being in the world, giving my work across the world? And I think for all of us to be troubling, right, the ways that we are steeped in knowing, and I think, you know, to go back to my grandmother, you know, Stephanie, is one of my grandmothers and Andrea, the other one, these two women, and I love, I say this with pride, like neither of the two of them could read or write. Right. And, their two, of course, of the most brilliant women that I knew, that I know and so for me, I knew at a very young age that they could not formally read or write and that they were brilliant. So there was a way that when I got to grad school, and I’m learning about assessment, right, and they’re looking at about other ways of knowing, I thought, well, yeah, of course, there are people who are smart and don’t know how to read.

Candice Wu 26:02

Yes.

Cynthia Langtiw 26:04

My grandmothers, right, and even my grandmother, Andrea, I’ve never met anybody who could recite more Psalms than she could from the Bible. She was a deeply spiritual woman. And when I think about that, right, like for someone who didn’t read or write, but then to memorize the scripture and hold them in her heart, because that was important to her, how brilliant and I always knew that.

Cynthia Langtiw 26:30

And so for me, there was a way that that I was always troubling, sort of these rigid ways of knowing and also unknowing, and the wobbliness and the unsteadiness of unknowing and how that unknowing place is the birthplace of creativity, like you can’t be fully creative and like, burst forth from a place of like, solid knowledge all the way through. There has to be a place of unpacking, unknowing, of wobbliness, right, in which we get steady, right, because that it’s so important.

Cynthia Langtiw 27:12

So like all of it, the knowing, the unknowing and moving through, and finding the courage to sit in that unknowing, wobbly place is another part of, sort of my unpacking of knowledge and ways of knowing, right? Now, that I think, in my clinical work it’s certainly present, in my research it’s present. But in my life, you know, as a parent, holy cow, I always joke that I was an amazing clinical child psychologist before I had —

Cynthia Langtiw 27:46

But now, I’m like, I hope I didn’t break them, you know?

Cynthia Langtiw 27:53

I think I’m doing okay now, but I check in with them every so often “Am I doing okay guys? How are you feeling?” You know?

Cynthia Langtiw 28:02

I said to my son once we were, just cuddling once, I said, “Sweetie, how are you doing? You know, am I doing okay as a mom?” And he’s 12, and really sweet, and we’re cuddling, and then he gets up. And he looks like he’s 20. And he looks at me, he’s like, I think you’re doing the best you can.

Cynthia Langtiw 28:29

Like, such a sweet moment.

Cynthia Langtiw 28:34

But he was so honest.

Candice Wu 28:35

So much wisdom.

Cynthia Langtiw 28:38

You know, there’s some room for improvement, but you’re doing okay, you know, but also acknowledging that he gets it, that I’m trying. Right. So, I think that being a parent has certainly been, you know, a wonderful, wobbly place for me.

Candice Wu 28:57

Yes.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:01

I’m still I’m learning so much. But then it translates into other places in my life, too. And as a teacher, it helps me to sit with my students in their places of discomfort as their unknowing, and to walk as — in companionship with them, right, as their unknowing and to trust their unknowing process. And I —

Candice Wu 29:31

You hold such a save space then.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:33

Right, I tell them, you will get frustrated with me, because you’ll come to me and want an answer and you’ll get more questions, and you’ll leave cursing at me under your breath, and then you’ll come back feeling so proud that you uncovered the answers that you already know.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:52

Like, you, already have, right, that you felt like you wanted me to tell you, but there would be no sense of pride, no sense of ownership, no sense of, “I did this.”

Candice Wu 30:07

Yeah, we have to find the answers for ourselves, the ones that are most important, is what I’m getting from that.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:14

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:15

There are ways that the whole idea weaves its way. But it’s also because I have a firm belief that we have so much of what we need to know and that we need to uncover it and unpack it and come to our truth. And that there’s an importance in silence, and sitting with to uncover the things that are already there.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:41

And so that’s why, I mean, one of the reasons I appreciate your podcast so much, because you focus on the sense of oneself, and meditation, and sitting with because there’s so much knowledge that we already have in our spirits, in our core, from across time and space, the ancestors, right, like are here with us, have been here with us, they knew us before we knew, and we ourselves, our ancestors that know, our great-grandchildren. And we’re already offering something to them, right, like in this moment. And it’s, like, when I think about that level of connection, I think like, how can I feel lost? How can I feel lost when I’m so connected to the past and to the future? You know?

Candice Wu 31:35

That’s a beautiful image and energy, like, the connection of what’s already there, anchoring us to who we are.

Cynthia Langtiw 31:44

Yeah.

Candice Wu 31:49

I just have one last question for you, Cynthia. What’s your indulgence or guilty pleasure right now?

Cynthia Langtiw 31:56

Oh, trashy novels.

Candice Wu 31:59

Like what?

Cynthia Langtiw 32:00

I won’t name them. The last one I got from the library, I thought, really? Is he not wearing a shirt?

Candice Wu 32:13

That’s hilarious! It’s like we have to let go somewhere, you know, when the rest of our lives are so important.

Cynthia Langtiw 32:21

Yes.

Candice Wu 32:23

Taking our energies, yeah, something has to give.

Cynthia Langtiw 32:27

Absolutely! I love them. I indulge. Of course, I have, you know, my book club with our high-end books and my psychology books, and my trauma books. But yeah, the trashy novels. They’re my indulgence.

Candice Wu 32:41

So if I see, like, a book covered in like, a black paper just to be hidden from — next to your travel books, I may take a peak —

Cynthia Langtiw 32:55

Gladly.

Candice Wu 32:57

Oh, funny.

Candice Wu 32:58

Well, thank you so much. This is so much fun talking with you, Cynthia, and you bring so much wisdom, vibrancy, and life. You’re such an advocate for people and I just appreciate you so much.

Cynthia Langtiw 33:11

Thank you so much. I am honored. I have such a respect for you and your work, and your podcasts that to be asked to be a part of this community, a deep honor and a sacred time. Thank you.

Candice Wu 33:25

Thank you so much. Where can people find you, Cynthia?

Cynthia Langtiw 33:29

Sure!

Cynthia Langtiw 33:29

So, I can be reached — my email is CLangtiw@thechicagoschool.edu. I hope that you can open those links. My LinkedIn is also a profile for me and I have a page on the Chicago School. So all of those are places that you can reach me, and feel free to email me or you know, send a LinkedIn message.

Candice Wu 33:55

Beautiful. We will put all those on the show notes so it’ll be easily accessible. And thank you so much.

Cynthia Langtiw 34:02

Thank you.

Candice Wu 34:07

I’m so honored that Cynthia was able to be on the show today. Thank you so much, Cynthia, and thank you all out there listening. I hope that this was interesting for you, especially her conversation about Interlogs and how transformation, our own transformation affects how we are seeing the world. And she specifically was speaking on research, but I feel as we spoke about, touched about briefly, how that is so much a reality in our life right now that we’re waking up to, that we are showing up more. I’m seeing this happen more and more with people, that they’re showing up more with who they are and what they’re experiencing as valuable, and not something to hide and pretend that we are this blank slate, and pretend that we just come with nothing and are seeing the world completely neutrally. It’s just not the case.

Candice Wu 35:01

Of course, we’re affected by who we are and what energy and material we’re looking at the outside of us. What kind of person we’re experiencing outside of us. And it’s that kind of connection with ourselves, an interaction with what comes up, that is the healing work. That is the power of what energies we bring to the table and what wants to be seen and uncovered, so that connection can happen with even more, not just ourselves, but with others and it’s valuable. It’s worthwhile.

Candice Wu 35:41

So thank you so much, Cynthia, for bringing that to the table and your important work in the world.

Candice Wu 35:47

I encourage you to check out part two of this episode, especially if you’re interested in trauma in relationships and also in betrayal. We talked about feeling brokenhearted where things don’t feel complete, and that there’s an opportunity to rebuild within trauma or experiences that are very challenging.

Candice Wu 36:05

We also explore our ancestors and how the past and the future can anchor and ground us and resources in the now, as well as how in relationship, in intimate relationships, it’s often that there’s trauma involved when things become challenging. We explore true intimacy as well as boundaries and betrayal trauma that’s on a micro and macro level with people as well as in the black community.

Candice Wu 36:31

If you’re interested in looking at Interlogs for yourself, and how that can touch into your personal life, go ahead and look out for her guided experience that’s going to come out later this week, where you can be guided by Cynthia through this process of looking at your own inner transformation and exploring how that’s coming to life for you.

Candice Wu 36:57

If you’re just listening in and you want to find the link for that, you can find it at CandiceWu.com/cynthia.

Candice Wu 37:03

I am leaving today’s conversation with a great deal of energy and love and most of all acceptance, as Cynthia was talking about unknowing and the ways that we’ve been steeped in a certain kind of knowing which I have to.

Candice Wu 37:27

It’s very important that we’re embracing all the parts of ourselves because that brings us forward to more knowing and a different kind of compassion for ourselves in each other, ways of compassion and being seen, things being seen and unsilenced to that, bring us to a greater fullness. So with that, I look forward to seeing you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

This is part two of the episode with special guest, Cynthia Langtiw, and in this episode, we talked about trauma, how to utilize your own resources and feel connection and wholeness with yourself, within trauma experiences, trauma in relation to couples, and healing in relationships as well as the experience of betrayal trauma, when the hand that feeds you is also the hand that hurts you, and we talked about that on a micro and macro level.

Candice Wu 0:30

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, embodied healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:44

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:05

This episode is supported by my listeners who have contributed on Patreon. If you found the podcast to be interesting, inspiring, healing or supportive for you and you want a way to contribute back, feel free to check out my page at CandiceWu.com/patreon where you can donate even just as little as $1 a month to support the production of the podcast, and all of the love and details that go into every single episode. Thank you in advance for considering to donate, it really means a lot to me. And every single person that’s on there, just also adds in their energy towards the life of the podcast. So thank you, all of you out there.

Candice Wu 1:52

I’m thrilled to have Cynthia back for a second day here on the podcast. The podcast that went out yesterday, part one, was all about being your best voice, believing in change and healing. It was about connection, ancestry, and lineage, as well as the decolonizing methodologies in research and in life.

Candice Wu 2:14

I really wanted Cynthia to come back to talk more about trauma because she is a trauma expert, and she’s just somebody that holds space for so many people that are suffering in the world. She’s worked with refugee populations. She’s worked with relationships and couples, as well as individuals who are experiencing trauma or have, at some point in their life. And she sees people with such a beauty and wholeness that brings people to see their own wholeness.

Candice Wu 2:44

If you haven’t listened to the first part of the episode yet, go ahead and find it on my website at CandiceWu.com/cynthia or CandiceWu.com/ep64. I encourage you to listen because it’s truly inspiring and even brought me to feeling this radiance within myself. Without further ado, let’s jump in and talk to Cynthia.

Candice Wu 3:13

Welcome back, Cynthia! It’s fantastic to have you here on the show again.

Cynthia Langtiw 3:17

Thank you for having me back. I’m excited to continue our conversation.

Candice Wu 3:21

Yeah, you know, I was just so happy with our conversation and inspired, and I felt this vibrance and brilliance in my whole being. And I know that you work with a lot of trauma and trauma is just such an important topic of the Embody Podcast. A lot of people are tuning in because they have trauma or they know of somebody or they’re just revealing to themselves, maybe I do have some trauma. And so I wanted to hear your wisdom on that. And specifically, I have read somewhere that you were talking about supporting people and utilizing their own resources to help them trauma. So I’d love for you to talk about trauma and how you support that.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:08

Yeah. I really appreciate that question so deeply.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:12

And I’ve come in my, you know, years of doing this work to realize how pervasive trauma is. And so that’s a bit heavy and heavy to hold. But I also realize the spectrum and so I think many people would shy away from the term, trauma, you know, big T or little t, because maybe they think of a big event that happened.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:37

But what I find, and I did a workshop a couple of years ago, and I borrowed from Brené Brown, thinking about being wholehearted and one of the things that connected for folks was the idea of being broken-hearted, like having pieces of yourself that don’t feel completely connected.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:54

And so when I think about trauma and the experience of trauma over the lifetime, I think about broken-heartedness, and how we’re meant to live wholeheartedly. But these breaks in relationships, or these things that happened to us that we experience is traumatic, leave us not feeling like we’re able to live wholeheartedly. And so that gets to how I think about the impact of trauma. So much of the trauma that’s long-lasting, is interpersonal.

Cynthia Langtiw 5:25

Now, there are some things that happen. So say, a fire or a car accident, they are not necessarily interpersonal, but so much of the trauma that I see in the world, and my clients, you know, in my day to day life, is interpersonal trauma. And I find that to be especially difficult when it happens early on in life when we’re having less than optimal experiences, from which to build, because that’s when we build our foundational resources. We learn how to have an interaction with someone, have it be difficult, but get resources from our parents or caregivers, about how to move through. We learn to feel sad. We learn to feel angry. We learn to feel happy. We learn to hold all of these resources and being able to make —

Candice Wu 6:17

Or, we don’t.

Cynthia Langtiw 6:18

Oh, we don’t, right. And that’s why we ought to, I should say that’s where we ought to be learning those —

Candice Wu 6:24

That’s right.

Cynthia Langtiw 6:25

Fundamental building blocks and resources that we draw upon later on, right, in order to move forward. If we don’t get those initial building blocks, that becomes really difficult later on to even notice one, that we don’t have those resources, but then to had a move on in life. And so when I talk about being resourced, I mean, some of these very basic building blocks, how to communicate. What we had to understand? What we’re feeling? How to communicate what we’re feeling? How to understand what we need? How to ask for what we need, right?

Cynthia Langtiw 7:04

The beauty is, though, when we realize that some of these resources are lacking, or not there, or were not available, we can start building them. So it’s never too late to learn how to notice your emotions, to notice how something that happens to you is sitting in your body. I know that the whole somatic world is so important for you and your work and it is for me, as well. Like, to notice, like, what is happening in our bodies in response to a stimulus, any stimulus. What’s happening emotionally, right, and then to be able to use some of those, and build resources from those is so important.

Candice Wu 7:04

Absolutely.

Cynthia Langtiw 7:51

And then the world opens up in terms of resources, right? Connecting with our emotions, connecting with ourselves, and then being able to connect with others in meaningful ways, in ways where we can share and ways where we can emote, in ways where we can offer love, guidance, support, in ways that we can get love, guidance, support, right. True, deep emotional connection happens when we’re connected to ourselves first, and that takes understanding, important resources and then building upon them. I hope that starts to answer your question.

Candice Wu 8:32

Yeah, you know, I am hooking into that experience of most trauma being within an interpersonal relationship and in the context of relationship, therefore needing a relationship to support the healing. And, you know, where do we learn the building blocks of how to feel something in ourselves, by ourselves?

Cynthia Langtiw 8:54

Yeah.

Candice Wu 8:55

If we don’t have that we just don’t have it.

Cynthia Langtiw 8:57

We don’t. Yeah, and it’s so important, right.

Candice Wu 9:02

Yeah, and the other thing I was thinking, what you said early on in this question, something I’ve been thinking about a lot and something people ask me is, do you see practically everything is relating to trauma? And I see trauma as something that’s incomplete, that wanted some completion in some way, whether that’s staying with a feeling that just didn’t get enough space or time or a fight, or something being said that felt like it wanted to happen instinctually, but didn’t get a chance to, or protect it in a way.

Cynthia Langtiw 9:38

Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:39

And so I just see these little and big things happening to us all of the time. Like, we don’t scream at our boss because, you know, we want to protect our job, right?

Cynthia Langtiw 9:53

Right.

Candice Wu 9:54

And that has a whole, perhaps a whole branch of other experiences linked with it. But do you see it that way? Or what is your thought about that?

Cynthia Langtiw 10:03

I think that’s such a beautiful way of putting it, things that aren’t finished, you know. Be it the most minute, seemingly, I should say seemingly minute fissures, right? Maybe you didn’t get something you wanted, or there was a need that, a want that felt like a need that didn’t get much, that you don’t even realize in the moment or you know, as babies, that happens, when there’s no language. Actually, there are no words, I should say there’s, you know, some language in terms of interaction, and so I think that really links into what I was thinking about in terms of being broken-hearted, right? These events, emotions, these things that happen, that don’t have resolution, or that leave us feeling not complete, right?

Cynthia Langtiw 10:51

But I think that sometimes those are, I think of those as opportunities, right? I think of moments that we don’t get what we need, or what we want, I should say, as opportunities to build, then move towards communicating about that need with our caregiver? How do we let them know? How does the caregiver then help repair by offering what it is that we need?

Cynthia Langtiw 11:23

So I don’t think that those fissures are necessarily problematic. They’re problematic when they aren’t complete. When there isn’t resolution. When we don’t learn how to move through, right. And that’s when we’re left brokenhearted.

Cynthia Langtiw 11:39

So I think the idea of not having a resolution, not completing, from the minute to the very large is so important, you know?

Cynthia Langtiw 11:50

Whenever someone tells me of something that happened to them, that has left them feeling sad, or traumatized, if they use those words, I asked them what happened when you told someone? What happened when you communicate it to someone? And what I found, by and large, is that the events that happen are often very painful and difficult. But what many people experience as a second trauma, and sometimes even more impactful is how someone else responded, either callously or not fully, or not completely, because they weren’t resourced, or negatively, or harshly, right, has such a long-lasting impact. The words that were said, the look on a face, has such a long-lasting impact.

Cynthia Langtiw 12:51

Similarly, when someone has had something really difficult happen, and they receive love, when they communicate, they receive compassion, they receive vulnerability in response to their own vulnerability, there’s such a different way that they talk about in their experience, you know. And so, I think that that’s another really important piece of understanding the intense power of pain, but also healing that can and I think it must happen in the context of relationship.

Candice Wu 13:31

Absolutely.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:32

Yeah.

Candice Wu 13:33

That’s beautiful. Thank you.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:35

You know, the other piece to that, that just made me think, and I think so much of it happens in the context of relationship, but for me, as someone who is a lifelong reader, I think if I wasn’t a clinical psychologist or professor, I would be a librarian or a spy…

Cynthia Langtiw 13:52

I’ll be a librarian because from the end, especially as an immigrant child, reading books was how I entered the world, like, how I came to understand and make sense of the world. And sometimes seeing another person, even a fictional character’s experience, resonated so profoundly and deeply within for me, that it changed me.

Cynthia Langtiw 14:25

There are ways that I’ve been healed by hearing and seeing a character in the book heal. There are ways that I felt validated, like, I think about Pecola Breedlove, from Toni Morrison’s The Bluest Eye. I’ve only ever read that book once, because it shook my soul to know that another little girl had this experience of being black in America. And, so there are ways that I’ve felt so seen in the context of a novel, that it’s overwhelming. And I think that’s another really beautiful way that we can connect with ourselves and with others interpersonally.

Candice Wu 15:11

Absolutely. I am just thinking about a book that I read when I was in fourth grade. Oh, goodness, what is it called? It was a book about the Holocaust and I can just see the cover, it’s red, it’s got two children on it, and the star of David right in the middle of it. And, I was just enthralled with reading about the Holocaust and reading stories like this and it was a fictional book, but just what you’re saying, something in it touched me even at that really young age and I had no clue why, you know? I am a Chinese-American girl that time and who knows why I’m just like, engrossed in this, and it’s terrifying, yet, also very healing.

Candice Wu 16:03

And later in life, I just felt very connected with something in me. I can name it as maybe it was a past life, experience of being Jewish or something, but aside from that, even, there was something in me about hiding in this life. And so whatever it was, there was just so much there, that was in an unspoken version of me, but read through these stories. So, I completely relate to what you’re saying and it’s, — we can find so much in story.

Cynthia Langtiw 16:43

And I think that speaks to relationship too, like, there’s a relationship that I had with, Pecola Breedlove rate and then with Toni Morrison, there’s a relationship that you had with these two characters, that was meaningful for you, right?

Candice Wu 17:00

Absolutely, and you said to me, one time, when we were speaking, feeling grounded across time and space was really important with finding resource around healing trauma, knowing you’re not just in this moment by yourself.

Cynthia Langtiw 17:18

Yeah.

Candice Wu 17:19

That you’re with your ancestors as long as those to come and that really resonated with me. Can you say more?

Cynthia Langtiw 17:26

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think, you know, with respect to literature, I think one of the things that can feel so difficult is when we feel untethered, unconnected, alone, and lonely, not just alone, but lonely, as if we are solitary in this world, and I realized one of the important resources for me, and I’m blessed to come from a line, and to have known, you know, through the really important matriarchs, my grandmothers, Andrea Hipolete and Stephanie being the two, that I think about most prominently, and they’re no longer here physically on earth with us, but they’re with me every day, you know, and in moments where I feel like, “Oh, my gosh, I had this task before me.” I often stand very still and call upon them, and I feel their courage, buoy me, you know. And I feel the courage of all the women whose shoulders on which they stood, you know, I feel the courage of my ancestors grounding me.

Cynthia Langtiw 18:39

And I also think about, like, you know, I have these two boys, and I think about who they’ll bring into the world, who they’ll love, you know, who will love them. And all of the progeny, like, who will come from my family and I feel grounded, both in the past with my grandmothers, but also with who and what’s to come and there’s the way that I can’t feel alone in the world, when I really ground myself in both the past and the future. And I feel tethered, but not torn, in both ways. And that’s such an important inner resource for me. And I think that, and I hope that my kids feel that way. I certainly know that my siblings feel that way. But I hope that more people really stopped to think about, you know, the ways that they can ground themselves, in the past and the future, and in the ways that they are.

Cynthia Langtiw 19:40

And sometimes that can be really challenging because it’s wonderful and amazing as my grandmothers are. I have these beautiful memories. But there are some painful memories, you know, in the past as well. And I know the important work that you do around intergenerational family work, that there’s some pain that can be there as well and as I say that knowing that those inner resources that come from the past and the future are complicated.

Candice Wu 20:13

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 20:14

Yeah.

Candice Wu 20:14

Right.

Cynthia Langtiw 20:15

Yeah. And that’s very real as well and I honor that. I honor that it’s complex.

Candice Wu 20:22

Absolutely. It’s very real. Thank you. So you’re doing trauma work with couples as well and you were writing a book?

Cynthia Langtiw 20:32

Yes. So it’s one of the books that’s at the forefront of my spirit, you know, I feel like it’s not even something that I’ve come up with, but that it’s come to me. And, you know, in recent years, I’ve just come to seek so clearly, with all the amazing couples with whom I work, and I don’t know how people find me. But whenever a couple leaves my office, I think, wow, what amazing people I get to work with, you know, and I just feel so honored that they let me in their lives and let me in their couplehood.

Cynthia Langtiw 21:08

And what I found with almost all of the couples, if not all of the couples with whom I’ve worked, is that when there are significant challenges, that there often is trauma or multiple traumas that had been experienced, right. And so what happens is that, and often, in both members of the couple that have experienced significant trauma, that they’re working through or need to work through, or maybe never even realized, was situated in them as a traumatic experience or series of experiences.

Cynthia Langtiw 21:51

And so I find much of my work is helping them recognize, one, the trauma that they’ve experienced, and how it’s showing up in the context of relationship. How it’s keeping them from being vulnerable with each other. How — and there are moments that are happening around self-preservation, that are not about what’s happening in this moment, that are tethered to the past, connected to the past trauma, but are showing up right now. And so how can I be a compassionate, you know, partner, right? How can I understand this as related to the trauma, and so give some space for my partner to be and to work through? How can I, as the partner who is living out, working through a traumatic experience in the context of the here and now, communicate with my partner, what I’m learning about myself, what I’m understanding about myself, what I’m not understanding, or recognizing might not be related to what’s happening with this partner here, but maybe something that’s happened in the past.

Cynthia Langtiw 23:05

And I find that my work, as the psychologist in this space, is to offer some space to see the dynamics that are happening. What’s happening in the here and now? What’s related to your past trauma? What is being worked through right now? And how can we understand how all of it is situated together? It’s a really delicate dance. And, but it’s a dance that the couples are doing every day, and maybe not recognizing how it’s playing out for them.

Cynthia Langtiw 23:40

I keep coming back too in the work that I do with couples is how one of the things that we, you know, one of the papers that I read, years ago, must have been like 25 years ago, and it stayed with me, Susan Sands. And she’s, I think she comes from a self-psychology perspective. But the title of the paper, I think, was, What is Dissociated?

Cynthia Langtiw 24:02

And the preps of the paper was: what is dissociated, is connection, right? Like, so when somebody experiences a trauma, what happens is, it cuts off their ability to connect, right? And it was so powerful to me because it was so clear. And so when someone starts moving away in the context of relationship, a partner it’s because they’re trying to protect themselves. And so we talk about what it is they’re trying to protect, the way that they’re trying to disconnect as a means of self-preservation, and how at some point that was working for them. They had to do that, that was how they protected themselves. But that strategy is no longer working in the context of this relationship, because what you want to do is move closer to your partner, not away from your partner, right? You want to move towards intimacy and that disconnection, that lack of vulnerability, that self-protection and self-preservation is moving away from intimacy, rather two of them towards intimacy.

Cynthia Langtiw 25:14

And that’s a big ask, you know, that’s a big act for someone who has had to protect themselves and has used strategies that have kept them alive, in some cases, to say, Okay, I get it. It made total sense at some point in time. But right now, it’s not the strategy that’s helping you move towards your goal. And so how can we say thank you to that strategy and put it aside, while we’re trying to employ strategies that can help us move towards our goals in the here and now.

Candice Wu 25:50

I think that’s such a powerful experience to shed the past strategies and recognize they were helpful. And that feels to me, now, as you’re talking about it, one of the signals of trauma, you know, we keep using a strategy over and over, even when it’s not presently useful anymore. And we can get locked in that reaction or pattern, where we keep on doing the thing that’s not helpful to now because we have disconnected with the moment or with the vulnerability of now. And so, yeah, and you spoke about intimacy and we have talked in the past about intimacy, how to have true intimacy. Can you speak about that? What is true intimacy?

Cynthia Langtiw 26:42

Yeah, I mean, I think that we all desire to be, you know, our complete selves, and I talked about being able to like, the couples of whom I work to be able to walk in the door and feel like you can breathe free, right, you can be your whole self. You know, my good friend, Dr. Tracy Rogers, you know, talks about bringing your whole self to the table. She’s — and the importance of being able to bring your whole self —

Candice Wu 27:11

How does she say it? I love it.

Cynthia Langtiw 27:13

Your whole self. I love her so much.

Cynthia Langtiw 27:17

And it’s real and I say that with such fondness because she is a friend of my heart and someone with whom I can bring my whole self and being able to be laid bare before someone else, right? And have that be and know that that’s completely okay, you know, be able to be vulnerable. That’s the stuff of relationship, because it’s in that quivery, open, laid bare, vulnerable space, that we truly connect with another human being. Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 27:58

And what this quandary that I find, because I find that oftentimes, what we’re trying to do in relationship, the couples with whom I work, and I myself is put my best foot forward. But like, I want you to see the shiny parts. I want you to see the glimmer, I want you to see the glitz and how amazing I am, you know. We want our partners to say that we’re, you know, the gold standard. And yet, what breeds true intimacy are those more difficult moments, you know, the stuff that isn’t shiny, the stuff that’s patched over, but that needs to be unpatched and healed because it never healed in the first place. You know?

Cynthia Langtiw 28:46

And so that’s the paradox is that we want so much to be connected. We want to be connected. So we put on the mask, we put on the show, we put on the glitz, the glamour, the gold. And yet, the paradox is that it’s those quivery moments. It’s the patched up part. It’s the truth of who we are, that allows the vulnerability, that breeds that kind of authentic connection we’re actually looking for. Right?

Candice Wu 29:26

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:27

We connect.

Candice Wu 29:29

Like, when you put it like that. Like, of course.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:34

We don’t connect, not really. I mean, yeah, we’re attracted to someone. But we fall in love, like, deeply in love with the parts of each other, that are quivery and vulnerable, and real and authentic.

Candice Wu 29:54

I could not say that better. Exactly. Well, and we become that glittery facade version of ourselves. Because it seemingly worked at some point.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:08

Sure.

Candice Wu 30:08

And we just keep ongoing —

Cynthia Langtiw 30:11

We do.

Candice Wu 30:13

And yet, our soul yearns to connect with the messy painful parts too.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:20

Yes. Absolutely.

Candice Wu 30:21

And so we want to see that in each other. We want to help each other to see those parts of ourselves.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:28

Yeah, and the more vulnerability, the more connection. If we’re able to accept ourselves and then accept the other and keep accepting the other. And so I see a big part of my work as a couple’s therapist, is to help, you know, partners, one, accept themselves and keep creating space for vulnerability, and true authentic connection, and to keep opening up that space. Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 31:11

I mean, that’s, yeah, that’s the work.

Candice Wu 31:15

Yeah, it is. And I find, in conjunction with that, keep accepting the other, and keep accepting yourself and the other and self. It’s such a fine balance. I guess just personally I have experienced accepting the other without accepting self, can tip over into that, and somehow neglected myself.

Cynthia Langtiw 31:44

Yeah.

Candice Wu 31:45

Or accepted. I think it’s a fine line of accepting someone’s vulnerability in their experience and what they’re sharing, but not accepting something that doesn’t feel good to you in terms of a treatment or way of relating or experience.

Cynthia Langtiw 32:07

I say this from deep experience with that very thing you just shared, Candice, that resonated for me so deeply. Where I was so accepting of the other, that I couldn’t even see myself anymore, which actually is a false acceptance of that other person, because I didn’t trust them enough to be completely myself, and so it wasn’t really accepting them. You know, I didn’t fully accept them if I don’t fully accept myself, and have boundaries for myself. Like, I can love you completely and say, this is how I’m going to love you from afar or up close, or we can continue this piece because it’s what’s right for both of us. Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 33:03

And so that, what you just said resonated so deeply there isn’t a way that I can deeply accept someone else or say that I do without being fully real, because then there’s a part of me that knows that what I’ll get in response, won’t be okay, won’t be enough. I’m not enough. So I have to shrink back or disappear in order to show up for this person, which isn’t trusting them and isn’t trusting their abilities.

Candice Wu 33:39

Their wholeness, their ability to accept you, to accept more or —

Cynthia Langtiw 33:47

Yeah.

Candice Wu 33:47

Be respectful or to hold that. Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 33:51

Yeah.

Candice Wu 33:52

I love how you described how that works in complete tandem.

Cynthia Langtiw 33:56

Yeah.

Candice Wu 33:56

Yes, it’s no separation.

Cynthia Langtiw 33:58

Right, and it takes so much courage to be in relationship. It takes so much self-compassion, compassion for others. It takes having clear and appropriate boundaries. So that’s something that we learn and if we didn’t learn, we can learn, right?

Cynthia Langtiw 34:19

And so it’s quite a bit of work to be, you know, fully in relationship. And yet, you know, it’s, I think it’s how we’re meant to be, not necessarily partnered. I’m talking about relationships, period. I absolutely believe that we were meant to be in deeply connected relationships and sometimes that looks like being partnered. Sometimes it looks like having, you know, a family relationship. Sometimes it looks like a best friendship. Sometimes it looks like X, Y, Z, a parent, a child. But I absolutely believe that we were meant to be in deep, authentic, connected relationships. We were and are built for it. I do.

Candice Wu 35:16

Absolutely. I can see. I feel that. Yeah. So there’s one other topic that I’m interested in, and let me know how you’re feeling now about it, is betrayal trauma, and both micro and macro levels of that.

Cynthia Langtiw 35:35

Yeah.

Candice Wu 35:36

Yeah. I just want to start with what you had written. I think somewhere in a profile about betrayal trauma. And you mentioned a psychologist, Jennifer, is it Freyd or Freid? That she identified betrayal traumas, a type of trauma that occurs when people or institutions on which a person depends for existence, significantly violate that person’s trust —

Cynthia Langtiw 36:03

Yeah.

Candice Wu 36:03

And well being, and that you mentioned it’s particularly harmful because one’s sense of trust, their connectedness, and their well being is compromised.

Cynthia Langtiw 36:13

Yeah, absolutely.

Cynthia Langtiw 36:15

And so for the years, you know, I worked with children, and I still do, and I saw this so clearly the confusion that happens when a child who is supposed to rely on their caregiver, right, they have to rely on their caregiver, is betrayed by that caregiver that I have found to be some of the most long-lasting, ingrained, embedded type of trauma, that’s the most difficult, from which to heal.

Cynthia Langtiw 36:49

And what I found over time is what Dr. Freyd shared, is that the mechanism that happens is that the very hand that supposed to care for you and feed you is the hand that slapping you and hurting you. And yet, you still need to be fed, in order to have sustenance and to live, your very survival depends upon you, figuring out how to manage this double-edged hand, if you will, that both feeds and hurts you. And so you figure out strategies, right, to both get the sustenance that you need from that hand, but to also know when to run away. No one to protect yourself, no one to — how to care for yourself.

Cynthia Langtiw 37:38

It’s a very unstable, difficult is an understatement, traumatic way to grow up, and I saw so many kids who had that double-edged hand, if you will, that sometimes fed them, sometimes hurt them. And they had to learn how to ingratiate themselves. They had to learn how to, you know, manage all of that, in order to survive. And so they came up with strategies to figure out how to do that. And so then, part of my work as a clinical psychologist with the kids who are now adults, right, who are couples, is to learn what patterns were learned in the context of that relationship. How to unlearn the patterns that weren’t helpful, and how to come up with strategies that are.

Cynthia Langtiw 38:32

What I came to realize, and I’m only going to touch upon this briefly because it’s so profound, so heavy, so large, that it gives me pause, is that very same pattern that I saw with the kids who became adults, who experienced betrayal trauma in the context of their caregiving relationship, that pattern, was happening on the micro-level, in the family, between parents and children or caregivers and children. But that pattern happens on a macro level.

Cynthia Langtiw 39:08

And I wrote a paper in which I reflected on how black children in particular, and both the Dominican Republic and the US, but I think that other people, children, experience this, experience betrayal trauma on a macro level. And what do I mean by this? What I mean is that there are structures in place that systematically discriminate and harm black youth, black children, black boys in particular and that is a form of betrayal trauma.

Cynthia Langtiw 39:46

So you have these black youth that are going to hospitals, to schools, to all of these systems that are supposed to care for them. And yet, within those systems, they are betrayed. They are actually harmed, right, the criminal justice system.

Cynthia Langtiw 40:06

As a mother of multiracial kids who present as black, my heart cannot comprehend what parents like Tamir Rice’s parents who was, you know, a 12-year-old boy, he was killed on a playground, what his parents must be experiencing?

Cynthia Langtiw 40:28

What Trayvon Martin’s parents must continue to experience?

Cynthia Langtiw 40:33

How on a macro level, these institutions are supposed to care for, you know, our children, and yet are systematically betraying them, is heady. And so what does that look like then in the work that I do? Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 40:53

In the work that I do, clients come in, and they’ve experienced betrayal trauma at the hands of their caregivers, but they’ve also experienced betrayal trauma on a macro level, and feel currently discriminated against and pained.

Cynthia Langtiw 41:09

And one of the things that I see as part of my job is to name that, to name that they should be treated better, to name that the feelings that they’re having are real, and a normative response. You know, psychologists talk about a healthy paranoia that some black people have, how that’s actually somewhat adaptive, right, in the face of this large scale, macro betrayal trauma.

Cynthia Langtiw 41:41

And I think that by naming that together, that we can begin to look at the psychological and emotional and spiritual impact, right, and also biological impact, right, like all of it, and begin to work on it, because we’re recognizing how large it is, and how these larger systems are complicit in terms of structural violence and systematic inequality.

Cynthia Langtiw 42:07

You know, the fact that school systems where people pay higher taxes are better, is just accepted, is unacceptable. Like, we just accept that as par for the course. That’s ridiculous.

Candice Wu 42:22

It is.

Cynthia Langtiw 42:24

And that’s part of the betrayal trauma that can happen on a macro level and I named that. And I named that as it related to how the clients that I see. How the people that I see working through their lives, experience the world and experience within themselves and can take that on as something that’s problematic about them. So similar to kids who have experienced betrayal trauma in the context of, you know, their caregiving relationships can take it on as they were bad. There’s something defective about them as a child that’s why it happened to them. I named that that was not the case. In a similar way, I named that for the clients that experienced betrayal trauma on a macro level.

Candice Wu 43:11

When you are talking about this, naming it, I was just thinking, how much of an impact that actually can have you to validate someone’s experience as real. And even if it’s the paranoia that is adaptive, whereas if someone said, well, you don’t have to be afraid or paranoid, like that, just invalidates everything, but when we can feel so helpless about this larger, macro-level betrayal and aggression and hurt, it can just feel heady, it can feel so big, like, what do we even do about it?

Cynthia Langtiw 43:56

Yeah.

Candice Wu 43:57

Reminded how these small droplets of validation and naming it, shifting just even a tiny, baby step away from silence and invalidation. It’s like homeopathy that can do so much for one individual and that can ripple out into their community or their loved one. Or, just being for themselves.

Cynthia Langtiw 44:25

Yeah.

Candice Wu 44:26

In that knowing of one person believed me, or felt me and understands my pain or suffering. It’s huge.

Cynthia Langtiw 44:35

Yeah. I love the way you put that homeopathy, and it is, right, like, that’s powerful.

Candice Wu 44:43

Yeah, like to not bypass how important these little tiny pieces of vulnerability can be and are.

Cynthia Langtiw 44:51

Absolutely.

Candice Wu 44:52

Yeah.

Candice Wu 44:55

Thank you for sharing these really important pieces, and I agree, it’s just so almost too profound and big to give it justice in the words here. But I appreciate what you’re doing and I feel that love for people comes through here in terms of people who are experiencing that on a very large level.

Cynthia Langtiw 45:26

Yeah.

Candice Wu 45:27

Thank you.

Cynthia Langtiw 45:28

That’s so meaningful to me. Thank you.

Candice Wu 45:32

It’s been incredible again to have you, to be talking with you, and for you to share what you’re working on and what’s inspiring you, what’s also paining you in your heart. And is there anything else you want to share?

Cynthia Langtiw 45:48

You know, I think I started all of this by saying we’re at our best when we’re connected to ourselves, and when we’re connected to others and this work that you’re doing to help reflect on how to do that is the stuff of life, and I so deeply appreciate it. Thank you, Candice.

Candice Wu 46:08

Thank you, Cynthia. I could not agree more with that for you and about you. And it’s just so wonderful that you exist, and you’re doing this work with people and that you exist as who you are in the world. And I look forward to the Interlog experience that you’re offering.

Cynthia Langtiw 46:30

I’m so excited.

Candice Wu 46:31

Thank you. Yes.

Candice Wu 46:35

Wonderful. Okay. Well, thank you so much. I learned so much. And let’s end it here, and just, I’m so grateful.

Candice Wu 46:46

It was such a pleasure to have Cynthia on the show and I’m so glad all of you are out there listening in. I hope it’s helpful to you and support you and finding some of your own belief in yourself, believe in your wholeness or even helps you see where you’re feeling broken hearted and where you want to take another step for yourself.

Candice Wu 47:09

Be sure to check out Cynthia’s experiential on Interlogs. In the first part of her episode, part one, she talks about Interlogs as a way of reflecting on your own process, if you’re a researcher, if you’re examining something and how your interaction affects the process, and what kind of transformation goes on within you, but she’s taking this to another level with Interlogs and opening up to, apply to anyone that’s looking at themselves and their process in any way. Maybe you’re an artist, maybe you’re doing healing work, or some sort of art, healing arts or something, that you can use this process to explore into yourself in a different way. So that episode will be coming out later this week. Look out for it. And again, you can find her full podcast with that experiential on the website with all the show notes and links at CandiceWu.com/cynthia or CandiceWu.com/ep64.

Candice Wu 48:10

Before you go, I’d love to invite you to hop onto my newsletter that comes out twice a month. This gives some updates about where I am in the world, what I’m healing and thinking about, as well as self-love notes that can support you in loving yourself more deeply, healing aspects of yourself, and it also keeps you up to date on any workshops or retreats that are happening. You can find everything at CandiceWu.com/embody.

Candice Wu 48:35

One last thing I want to mention is I encourage you to reach out to Cynthia if you’re interested in her work. If you’d like to stay in touch about her book that will be coming out. I’m not sure when, but if you want to stay in the loop, and if you want to contact her about speaking engagements, to invite her to your workplace or other places, reach out to her, the show notes are what will connect you directly.

Candice Wu 49:01

If you’re interested in reaching out to me to connect or to explore if we might be a good fit for healing work, feel free to reach out to me at CandiceWu.com/connect where you can set up a free 20-minute consultation and there’s no pressure to go forward. It’s 20 minutes we get together where we can talk about what you desire, what you want in your life for yourself, how you’re feeling and how you’re doing, and we can explore your next steps or check out how Constellations or Somatic Experiencing might support you. Or, I also give recommendations for other healers and therapists that may be a good fit for you. So that’s at CandiceWu.com/connect. I’m so glad you’re here and I hope you enjoyed this episode. See you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Introduction

Candice Wu 0:00

This is a special experience of Interlogs brought to you by Cynthia Lubin Langtiw.

Cynthia will explain what Interlogs is in a much better way. But if you want to hear the interviews that I’ve had with Cynthia, you can check out part one and part two, at CandiceWu.com/cynthia. There we talk about trauma in couple relationships, trauma in the world on a micro and macro level. We talked about belief in ourselves and the belief to create change in the world, and so many other beautiful things. She’s incredibly inspiring. So without further ado, here’s Cynthia.

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love.

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Hello From Cynthia

Cynthia Lubin Langtiw 1:17

Hello, my name is Cynthia Lubin Langtiw and I am a licensed clinical psychologist and I’m also a qualitative researcher.

And I want to walk you through a process around a really interesting liminal space that I’ve been exploring called Interlogs. So what are Interlogs you might ask?

Interlogs, with respect to qualitative research or formative experience or chapter in the qualitative research process that has the possibility of shaping and influencing the rest of the process.

The events or experiences of the Interlog can be directly or tangentially related to the actual research topic and they bring relief or different perspectives that can make the research process more personal.

Interlogs both clarify the process as they muddy the waters. Interlogs are stored in nature. And with respect to data analysis, interlogs are a critical aspect of bracketing or understanding our lens, that has the power and potential to transform the qualitative research process.

I want to take a step back as we’re thinking about being embodied and creative and think more broadly, as writers, as creators, as musicians, as inventors, as parents, as human beings, and whatever spaces in which we’re creating.

I want us to think about how we approach a particular topic, how we researched that topic, the lens with which we approach that topic. And I want us to think about the process that happens for us personally, as we engage in a professional topic, right?

There’s a reason that we chose the particular topic that we did, there’s a reason that we’re engaging with the characters in our writing and the way that we are. And there are sometimes ways that we feel stuck, or in between and that’s where the Interlog happen.

It’s what happens between the prologue and the Interlog underneath the story, in between the story, and I want us to, together, explore that liminal space.

Let’s Begin

And so, here’s our experiential project for today and I want us to think broadly, so it could be some writing that you do, it could be a drawing, or could be some reflection, but we’re going to spend about five minutes reflecting on the liminal, the in-between the lens, right, the pieces that aren’t directly the story, but that come from us. What is our personal connection to the topic at hand?

I want you to think about the topic and then I want you to think about your personal connection, those in-between thoughts that don’t make it necessarily into the story, or at least not in a direct way. But that absolutely, are woven into your connection.

And I want you to spend about five minutes in reflection and I want that reflection to be broad.

It could be a drawing. It could be words. It could be some free writing. Try not to edit yourself as you are doing some writing around this. Here’s to the in-between. I’ll come back to you in about five minutes.

[TAKE FIVE MINUTES :)]

Closing

Hello, everyone, we’re back together.

I hope that time of reflection helped you to think a little bit more deeply, differently, doubtfully in a different way, about the topic at hand.

My hope is that by exploring Interlogs, by exploring our transformation as we’re in process, by exploring the liminal spaces that we can expand on our creative process as we embody and live out the work that we intend to do, and that we are doing.

Here’s to being creative. Here’s to embodying. Here’s to in between. Here’s to liminal spaces, continue to Interlog.

Goodbye.

End

Candice Wu 11:22

I hope you enjoyed this experience with Cynthia.

Just a reminder that her podcasts are out as well at CandiceWu.com/cynthia. So check those out if you haven’t already and also check out the other experientials from other guests and myself on the podcast itself, CandaceWu.com/podcast.

Thank you so much for joining us today. It’s wonderful to have you here and hope to see you next time on the Embody Podcast.