Candice Wu 0:00
In this episode is a conversation about the Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper video, racism and how it's been playing out in the U.S right now, the way my body expressed reactions and perceptions towards black people, and an experiential for you to open your own body-based exploration around people who are different from you.

Candice Wu 0:24
The Embody Podcast accompanies you on your journey of remembering and embodying your true nature, integration, and alignment with your vibrational clarity, self-love, and living a life of beauty and wholeness. It's a menu of transformative healing tools, experientials, meditations, and practices from a blend of Family Constellations, Somatic Therapies, and Holistic and Spiritual practices, sprinkled with vulnerable conversations with people who have the courage to be themselves, {alive now} Episodes with updates on my personal process and Reverie Episodes that are Spiritual succulents that honor, reveal, hug, shake or stir you into Love. I'm your host, Candice Wu, integrative and intuitive healing facilitator, and artist.

Candice Wu 1:24
Hi, everyone, welcome back.

Candice Wu 1:27
Today's episode is a deepening into the conversation around race wounds and hidden race wounds, racism, and how to work with this in the body.

Candice Wu 1:41
I talked a little bit about this already, including my personal experiences with some race wounds, both on the side of being the person holding a belief about someone that ended up hurting them and from the other side of feeling wounded or hurt.

Candice Wu 2:01
In that conversation was this opener, an invitation to look and to be with exactly what you feel. And to go into the deeper layers of what you experience and what you put upon others because of your own fears or because of looking good and doing what people call Performative Allyship, being an ally to people, like black people, perhaps, and just doing it for a pat on the back, and ignoring the deeper stuff that lives in your body that plays itself out.

Candice Wu 2:42
So that conversation started in that episode. You can find it at [CandiceWu.com/racewounds](https://CandiceWu.com/racewounds).

Candice Wu 2:50
It's your body that holds reactions and unconscious sentiments towards others that contribute to racism. And no matter who you are. If you're black, brown, white, yellow, every color or tone skin tone in between, going deeper into the dynamics of what's going on systemically means looking at your own body's reactions, along with any other actions that your heart feels called to take, if that's protesting, if that's speaking up, if that's donating money to organizations that are supporting black people or those that you feel you want to support. I suggest holding space for what's held in your own body and digesting it.

Candice Wu 3:41
If you don't involve your own body in healing racism or in your anti-racism efforts, it has a risk. Your support of Black Lives Matter or any other race movement, it has a risk of being only performative and not going deep enough or perpetuating the same underlying dynamics that you intend to shift, that you intend to be different. But because it's held in the unconscious of the body, it stays the same.

Candice Wu 4:12
There is an effect when we hold stuff that's living in our bodies. When you heal your body's experience and the unconscious lived experience, the world around literally changes. So I encourage you to build your own ability to respond to your own reactions and to respond in the world instead of reacting. This is your response-ability. And this is inner freedom. Inner freedom supports freedom for all.

Candice Wu 4:44
I promised I'd talk a little bit about Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper. And I think that's a great opening for this experiential that I want to offer today.

Candice Wu 4:55
So if you haven't seen the video with Amy Cooper and Christian Cooper, it might be interesting to look at that.

Candice Wu 5:04
What I witnessed was a white woman, Amy, calling the police on a black man who asked her to put a leash on her dog in New York City, in the park, and he was calm and anyway, I'm not going to describe all of it, you can watch the short clip. But what I want to highlight today, first is how extremely calm the black man was “Christian”. I'm amazed even I don't know if I would be able to handle it like that. And then secondly, how Amy, I kind of want to say just the white woman because this can apply to anybody, and it's really not about her personally. It can apply to me. Her reaction, I see, is because of trauma that maybe she doesn't know about. Her body flared up so much. And I can't assume what she felt. But I can see that her body was escalating and activated and her nervous system seemed to go haywire. She was yelling in a sort of uncontrolled way. And she weaponized calling the police against this man who — where it was totally not called for in that situation.

Candice Wu 6:41
And that's similar to what's happening with police officers. They're scared and they have a knee jerk reaction, or there's something else going on in this dynamic of their own lives and it's being taken out on a certain group of people, black people in particular, but people of other races, experiences too.

Candice Wu 7:08
So I don't want to exclude but I do want to be sensitive because right now is a strong time for listening and beholding space for black folks experience the space that hasn't been had and truly been acknowledging enough. And we would know that because it wouldn't exist if the society could hold enough space to honor respect and stand behind all people, especially black people.

Candice Wu 7:58
So this woman had this trauma response and this is not to excuse what she did. It is just to say that I think that's going on for a lot of people in the world and in the United States, that even with and now I'm not speaking about this woman, but in general, even with the best of intentions, we can still be holding these hidden pieces of ourselves that will have a threat response, a trauma response, given an experience with someone of another race in a particular circumstance, where that might not be proportionate to what's actually happening.

Candice Wu 8:51
And because this has happened for so long and reiterated itself, repeated itself over and over and over in many ways, in this country of the United States, and perhaps in other countries, it has become a place where we're on autopilot, we are numb and these protests are waking many people up.

Candice Wu 9:19
So in this experiential today, I invite you to get curious about what it is that happens in your body and to be honest with yourself, to see and feel what you feel, and to have the courage to allow whatever comes up to be part of your process, in looking at your own racism. Or, if you want to say it in different terms, the ways that your unconscious wounds and belief sets then you may keep down, can live out.

Candice Wu 10:07
The important idea here is Performative Allyship. It's when you ally with people that won't support, won't to stand by them and you do it for a pat on the back and not in a whole and embodied way looking deeper. And that's really dangerous because it's a way to avoid looking at the deeper stuff that we all have.

Candice Wu 10:46
I don't know maybe the Dalai Lama doesn't have it, I don't know. But I want to venture to say we all have something and you can listen to my episode about what I experienced. And those were just two examples out of many I've looked at in my life. Many places where I have seen myself have different responses in my body towards people who look different than me or who are different or people of a different race. And that means something, that does something when I don't acknowledge it.

Candice Wu 11:23
So it's important to know what's there and just own it, and be honest with yourself to do so, and to look at how that affects your interactions. It's not a time to put blame on yourself, but to be gentle, so that you can look. It's not a time to shame yourself, even though you may feel shame.

Candice Wu 11:54
So I'm talking to everyone, including myself. I'm not just talking to White people, how we feel in our bodies. When we see a person of another race, or of another, whatever, we perceive them as different. We have a reaction in our bodies. It may be one of welcoming and warmth. So see if that's there for you. It may be, I can't look, it's hard to look, it may be fear, it may be sadness because some memory gets triggered up from your ancestry through your body or your past life, wherever it came from.

Candice Wu 12:43
All of that affects how we interact with each other and what we ignore, what we look at, who gets seen, who doesn't? What part of you get seen and doesn't?

Candice Wu 13:04
And so here is an opening to deepen in your own personal responsibility, response-ability, the ability to respond, the ability to look and hold and be with your own reactions and respond.

Candice Wu 13:26
So if you would like to please jump into this experience with me, and you can have a pillow or some sort of object to support this process. I'm going to invite you to move around your space using that pillow or book or some sort of prop, even a piece of paper and you can write on it. And I'll let you know what this object or paper is going to represent in just a moment.

Candice Wu 14:00
If you are not in a space where you can do this physically, or you don't have enough privacy, say you're in transit or something, you can imagine this in your mind. I don't recommend doing this while you're driving though, so please find a comfortable, safe space.

Candice Wu 14:22
When I first began looking at my biases, reactions, perceptions, and beliefs around black people or about them, I was surprised to notice that I couldn't really look at them. I was afraid of their power actually. I had both an idealized view that they were like, all-powerful grounded beings who could dance, kind of like drum up their warriors' selves and dance it out in this way that I wish I could be. And that I might be like screamed at, that was the sense I got, that I might be screamed at by someone who is black, and I wouldn't be able to handle it.

Candice Wu 15:24
Well, the perception was that they were erratic or perhaps angry, uncontrollable and that scared me. The perceptions that I placed upon black people were more about me than anything else. They were about my childhood wounding where I could get screamed at and that was terrifying and some of that had not been digested and metabolized or integrated. They were about ancestral trauma, wounding from culture to culture through my ancestry that it was intergenerational, the history of black people and Chinese people against each other.

Candice Wu 16:10
They were also about the fear of my own power and fear of others being full in their power. That part of your own power is the freedom to stand up and speak your truth and be that warrior self. And if I could have it, that was scary, what that would be for me, and if others could have it, then my own reactions to that and what would I do with that, that was scary.

Candice Wu 16:40
So when we leave these perceptions, but not only perceptions, our body's responses, our wounding, our untouched wounds, stuck in time, it's like cobwebs and bones in your closet or in your kitchen and they are rotting, and they're creating this undertone. And that is the underlying foundation of systemic racism and violence. That is what can bubble up and fuel our interactions with people of different races or of difference. And we may not be aware of that.

Candice Wu 17:24
And when I did get more courage in myself to look and to feel that I really wanted to digest it, so that I didn't have that experience, and I wasn't putting that on black people around me and I did.

Candice Wu 17:49
I felt like a whole shift because when I would imagine looking at a black person or when I was actually in front of a black person, and I'm not saying all Black people. I'm saying ones that I don't know, or certain ones that maybe they dressed differently than White people, or Asian people around me. Or, they had a certain kind of attitude that I wasn't used to and I don't mean a bad attitude. I mean, like, they're sassy in a certain way. I couldn't look at them. I would – like – slink away or turn away. And I didn't even notice that response until I did.

Candice Wu 18:45
And so the experiential that I want to offer today is one of that kind of practice, to get to know if you haven't already, some of those reactions that you may have and if you already know your reactions, it's a chance to test it out, comb through it and see what's here for you today.

Candice Wu 19:12
So what I'd invite you to do is take a pillow, or some sort of object to use as a prop. And with that, have a space that you can move about, that's private and quiet. If you're doing this on public transit, or in a place you don't have that much space, you could try visualizing this in your mind, but I would not do this while driving or operating any machinery.

Candice Wu 19:58
We're going to invite this object, this prop to represent someone of a race that you are wanting to look at your own reactions within your own body. It could be a Black person, it could be another — a Black person of another color, if you are Black, could be White person, could be Chinese, whoever. Just choose one for now, and you can do this with any other kind of person or a person with difference, like a different ability, size, accent or language, different sexuality. This can be applied to anything.

Candice Wu 21:03
So as you designate this prop to represent this person, this kind of person, and obviously, it's like a generalized thing, although different people you know may come to mind. Place the objects somewhere in your space, just intuitively wherever it feels right. And allow yourself to stand in a space interacting with this person.

Candice Wu 21:29
Imagine this person. Notice where you stand and how close or far away and allow your body to move around until you find a place where your body goes, where you land, where what happens is just happening. And open your curiosities, so that you can just allow whatever it is that's here to be here, to be discovered, to be revealed, and maybe even to surprise yourself in the safety of your own experience.

Candice Wu 22:15
There's no judgment or shame about whatever you may experience and you may even experience your own shame or judgment, and that's okay too.

Candice Wu 22:38
Now, feel and begin to witness what emotions and sensations you have inside your body as you're aware of this person. Become aware of where your eyes are looking, where they can look, or where they cannot.

Candice Wu 23:06
Can you see this person? And what happens in your body when you do look?

Candice Wu 23:19
And be open to anything, maybe it's warmth, maybe it's nothing. Maybe it's fear or some tension or a tightening of your shoulder, towards your neck and ear. Look for the subtleties and just be curious as you explore inward and downward.

Candice Wu 23:53
And whatever distance you're at, notice if you go closer, just a bit or farther just a bit, what begins to happen there inside your own body.

Candice Wu 24:19
And if you allow yourself to recognize or acknowledge that this person has a right to be, and to exist, what happens in you?

Candice Wu 24:46
And experiment with saying to them, I see you. And if it's true or not, can you see them?

Candice Wu 24:55
Can you see that they have a family or that they came from somewhere in terms of having an ancestry of people behind them?

Candice Wu 25:14
Can you see that they may have desires or dreams and honor that, what happens in you?

Candice Wu 25:30
Can you see if they have wounds or that they have wounds? Are you open to seeing that?

Candice Wu 25:49
And now just looking at your own experience, your own body even more, notice whatever happens in your body. Are there any thoughts about this person that is beginning to reveal itself?

Candice Wu 26:10
Any fears? Assumptions?

Candice Wu 26:23
And these assumptions don't have to even be “bad”. They might just be any assumption that you don't know has an unintended consequence. For example, thinking an Asian person is smart. That's an assumption and that can have an undesired effect. Even if you think it's a good thing to think about someone.

Candice Wu 27:03
Notice what there is here.

Candice Wu 27:07
Again in your body, all the way down to your toes.

Candice Wu 27:18
And whatever there is here to notice or witness, just allow yourself a few more moments here to do so and experiment with this dynamic as much or as little as you want moving closer, farther, standing next to, standing behind, seeing their ancestry, letting them see you.

Candice Wu 27:56
Noticing any part of you that has dislike or disgust or any other uncomfortable feeling. And let yourself investigate that by just being with it.

Candice Wu 28:20
And you might take longer here or take note of pieces of what you experience, thoughts that may have come up. Recognize that not everything is going to come up here. Because this stuff generally happens when you interact with life itself. And there are different ways that circumstances can draw out unknown perceptions or things that were just hidden or that you've hidden from yourself.

Candice Wu 28:56
So this is just an opening.

Candice Wu 29:02
When you're ready, take that prop and release it back to what it is. The pillow or the object that it is. And check in with yourself again.

Candice Wu 29:14
Notice how you're feeling in your body. Anything that's happening for you.

Candice Wu 29:26
Thank yourself for having the time and making the time and space, for having the courage to look.

Candice Wu 29:36
And feel free to try this again with any other kind of person that is different from you. Just checking to see what there is to know, what there can be revealed to you.

Candice Wu 29:52
And if you have someone that's willing to do it with you in person, someone who is different from you, if it's a safe experience that you can set up for the two of you that's agreed upon, that might be really interesting.

Candice Wu 30:11
And know that there are lots of spaces of Systemic Constellations that hold space for race wounds and race dynamics, wounds of our ancestry.

Candice Wu 30:26
In this experiential, we just looked at the body's reactions, the body's experience, when in the presence of someone who's different from you.

Candice Wu 30:41
In upcoming episodes, I want to look at parts of us that hold certain wounds, certain perceptions that may open up to our own personal wounding, or the wounding of our ancestry that we've inherited or have been replaying.

Candice Wu 31:02
And I want to talk about some Spiritual perspectives that zoom out farther, that are not unrelated to what we're talking about, but from a different vantage point to look at, from the level of creation. How have we created this and what it is that we're creating so we can take a deeper responsibility? A farther back perspective of responsibility and come out of any of our own victimization where we feel like someone else is to blame or to fault or something. Not everyone will be ready for that kind of risk, possibility, or presence.

Candice Wu 32:03
Some people at different times need acknowledgment of other people because that's where the wound happened. But I want to offer these coming up, so stay tuned if you're interested in that.

Candice Wu 32:19
Feel free to reach out to me and share your own experience with this experiential or pieces of this work that you're interested in. My email is [embody@candicewu.com](https://CandiceWu.com/connect). Feel free to leave a comment if you're seeing this on Instagram, Facebook, or YouTube.

Candice Wu 32:36
Thank you so much, and please be gentle with yourself. Support your body if you need it. And again, thank yourself for practicing this today.

Candice Wu 32:51
I'll leave you with just a little music to transition and allow your body to come back into the present moment and to whatever else your day holds.

Candice Wu 33:03
Thanks so much for joining me. I'll see you next time.

Candice Wu 0:00
This is an a{Life} Now episode about polarity, and coming into oneness and neutrality, dropping into a deeper space of love, and creating a new way of being, a new Earth, a new Life, creating new dynamics.

Candice Wu 0:18
And in this episode, I share about a feeling of worthlessness and wanting to disappear that I had, that surprised me and gave me some unexpected healing and wisdom.

Candice Wu 0:34
The embody podcast accompanies you on your journey of remembering and embodying your true nature, integration, and alignment with your vibrational clarity, self-love, and living a Life of Beauty and wholeness. It's a menu of transformative healing tools, experientials, meditations, and practices from a blend of Family Constellations, Somatic Therapies, and Holistic and Spiritual practices, sprinkled with vulnerable conversations with people who have the courage to be themselves, {alive now} Episodes with updates on my personal process and reverie Episodes that are “spiritual succulents” that honor, reveal, hug, shake or stir you into Love. I'm your host, Candice Wu, integrative and intuitive healing facilitator, and artist.

Candice Wu 1:36
Something that I've always been interested in is the opposite side of things, the polarity. The two sides of one coin, and especially where there are things that we overvalue in our society or we stigmatize. I've been interested in finding some sort of neutrality, where I can feel for and understand both sides and feel the bridge in between that links them. And it's with that.

Candice Wu 2:15
The other day, I was noticing this feeling of, I feel worthless. I am worthless. I am nothing, and I want to dissolve into nothing. I want to disappear. And for most people and even by my own perspective, I have built up my worthiness and thought that it was important to feel into self-worth rather than worthlessness and to heal worthlessness. And that, I guess, I wouldn't say it was a bad thing. It's just that it's not a feeling that resonates with my being that I feel worthless.

Candice Wu 2:59
So if it's there, either ignore it or if it's not ignorable, not ignore it, but just, it doesn't have power. But if it does have power, then look at it and heal it.

Candice Wu 3:12
And so here it came the other day and it came with a bit of sadness. So, kind of familiar to maybe other past feelings of worthlessness or unworthiness that I felt, but it had a different quality and it was here now, so I followed it. And they followed it, more words came and it continued on from I want to disappear. I want to dissolve into nothing. I want to be nothing.

Candice Wu 3:44
I asked myself a question that sometimes helps me. If I could dissolve into nothing, if I could feel worthless and nothing and disappear, what would it give me?

Candice Wu 4:00
When the knowing came, I just teared up and it felt like such a relief. And it was that I would feel peace. It surprised me, it surprised my mind at least… like I would feel peace if I felt worthless. I would feel peace if I could disappear. But those were actually the keywords, “disappear”.

Candice Wu 4:24
What it really meant to be, and it came through those words, even though it may not make total logical sense, but it kind of does, in that there are parts of me that have felt like I owed others something, that I exist for others. And I feel responsible for others, their well being or for making people happy.

Candice Wu 4:53
At this time of my life, it's only fragments of me like, little pieces of debris that feel that way. And, here it was, in this different format unexpected and surprising format, where, if I could disappear then it would feel amazing and peaceful because I wouldn't have to answer to anyone else. I wouldn't have to feel responsible for anyone else. I could be in my own world and be me and just be responsible for me and live my life for me, that I exist for me.

Candice Wu 5:37
It really brought me to clean up my dynamics with others, another level, where I trust in my own freedom and autonomy and I am that. I claim that. I take up that space as well as see the sovereignty of others. And, they're through responsibility for themselves and deeper knowing of their autonomy and wholeness and strength, and capacity and their journey, their path whatever they choose to do. And however one chooses to experience and be as a whole in their existence.

Candice Wu 6:27
So, I was shedding a layer of peace, of feeling like I owed others something in order to be okay. And if I, from that place of feeling that way, if I gave to others in a certain way, and these are little small things now, like returning text messages, maybe when I am not feeling totally compelled to in my being but feel like I should or feel guilty, emails and such.

Candice Wu 6:30
I'm really quite good at it now to just do it when I feel, I'm connected with it and that is for me to do in that moment I feel aligned and I feel happy or delighted to do it or feel purposeful for myself. It's truly a feeling of being in harmony with myself, my desires, and living fully in my being for my existence and for others because that is true harmony. If I can be fully in my existence, and others can too, everyone has that choice too.

Candice Wu 7:42
The process of getting there is a result of that choice or the journey with that choice can be something with that, I'm deeply free and so are others. And from that place, then I can connect with the cleaner intention, more of me, present and congruent with a clear intention of connection. Not connecting with others because I feel like I owe them something or I'm responsible for them and dependent, codependent in that way, on the dynamic, so it's breaking free of that dynamic and healing it and letting myself be from a freer place that is delighted to connect with people and interconnected, when I want to be and how much I want to be, as well as knowing that unconsciously and energetically, there's still a collective connection.

Candice Wu 8:50
So the feeling of the words and feeling of worthlessness going to wanting to disappear, going to peace, freedom, and harmony was so powerful for me and I loved that spin on it, of worthlessness. And it reminded me of how much I enjoy looking at polarities, and how going on one side or the other of a polarity is actually coming from the same energy.

Candice Wu 9:24
So the need to feel worthy and the need to feel, in my case, this kind of worthlessness that I am not indispensable, that I'm not the sole provider for certain people or like, so needed by people gives me a lot of freedom. But that I can be there for other people if I want to. And both sides of that spectrum come from not a place that I'd like to criticize or put as lesser or lower or worse, but more so a developmental, appropriate place of needing to develop that knowing and that side of myself, needing to know what it feels like to be worthy, needing to know what it feels like to be worthless, and therefore being able to come into the center of neutrality, that I'm not either of those things with that. I'm neither of those things and everything both. With that, I'm the awareness that feels these experiences. And to move beyond it naturally is to have felt both sides and understand them in my body. And then it's not a thing anymore. And that's where it's becoming. It's really nice to feel more in myself. More here for myself and coming towards connection from a more easeful, pure, and clear place of desire when that's there. And when it's not there, that's just the right thing.

Candice Wu 11:26
So what this leaves me with for all of you and for myself is the — just awareness that we are none of the things that we are trying to say we are and we are those things at the same time, you know, we are enough… inherently… and there's a deeper enoughness and worth of our existence that just is and that goes back to just almost all Spiritual sources that are deep knowing that we are, we exist, and therefore have value just because we exist. And to just feel that in my bones and my knowing, and to look at the places that maybe I hold and attach myself to, as part of the polarity, the duality, and to allow those places to gently come to the oneness, where it holds both, the both and the nothing.

Candice Wu 12:40
So some of these words, you know, I explain this in a kind of complicated way. I'm sure I could have explained this more simply. But I hope that you're receiving the energy of this, no matter what, and that if you've listened to it, that there's something in it for you, perhaps, or some piece of it that just connects with you. And if not, feel free to just leave it.

Candice Wu 13:07
I wanted to share this piece with you. It relates to a lot of the things I have talked about on the podcast like touching into the shadow side of empathy in that episode. You can find it at [CandiceWu.com/empathy](https://CandiceWu.com/empathy). Just looking at ways in which empathy goes awry, turns awry, and the door just opened.

Candice Wu 13:34
And just looking at the other side of the things that we assume our values and we assume, should be a certain way. And the way we look at society as a collective and what's happening, even social justice, it's coming in as a disguised form of the same energy of the opposition, sometimes. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just swinging from one side to the other and reliving the same energy or energetic dynamic and relational dynamic as well.

Candice Wu 14:20
And if that's the case in your life, are there ways that you want to come into the neutral space?

Candice Wu 14:28
A neutral space doesn't mean you don't take any action or do anything that helps people or that brings awareness or does some good, does some — and I question the word “good”, but does something that you want to create that feels good. It just means being neutral just means that you get to do it from a place of freedom and from a place that doesn't create the same effect from the opposite end.

Candice Wu 15:02
When we look at racism and anti-racism, that's often that kind of dynamic, where racism is on one polarity and anti-racism is on the other and it's coming from the same place of hurt. And it can often create the same hurt… or another level of hurt. And if you take the content out of it and look at the pattern, all dynamic of the energy or the things that are happening that it creates, produces something similar, another opposition.

Candice Wu 15:50
I know it's very pronounced with our president in the United States, Trump, and in other countries as well. There's a lot of opposition and polarity and divisiveness and we're really seeing opposition very prominently in our experiences as humans here.

Candice Wu 16:14
I don't necessarily like some of the things that I see. And where can I find a neutral space where I can bring loving, that isn't of the same pattern I see, is what I like to go for. And then, of course, there are just so many million ways that our dynamics are hidden to even ourselves and maybe to others too. Ways we feel like we're doing something good and it covertly creates the same wound or hurt.

Candice Wu 16:52
And so I just love this conversation.

Candice Wu 16:55
Let this be a conversation with you if it's a place of awareness that you want to build in yourself. If it's something you want to create, and as many people are saying, now we are creating a new Earth or we're creating a new vision. We're stepping into a new way of being. However you say that or put words to it, I think finding the neutral space where both sides of polarity can be held and dissolve into the oneness and the nothingness, the wholeness, the totality, the drop into a larger expanse of awareness, where that's more connected with source. When that can come through, we have the ability to really create something different.

Candice Wu 17:55
So that's all that wants to come through today. Thanks for listening.

Candice Wu 17:59
Sending my love out there to all of you and the energy of clarity, the light to be able to see yourself, see the world from a different standpoint that's not attached to polarity.

Candice Wu 18:14
Hope you're all doing okay and if you want to hear more from the {alive now} series, check that out at [CandiceWu.com/podcast](https://CandiceWu.com/podcast) and you can click on {alive now} to see the thread of all the episodes that were alive and present for me in the moment of recording and very raw, as well as other podcasts by me and guests and the experiential and meditations that you can tune into as well. And if specifically, you want the meditations and experientials for healing or grounding, loving yourself, you can find it at [CandiceWu.com/meditations](https://CandiceWu.com/meditations).

Candice Wu 18:54
Thanks for listening to the Embody Podcast to this {alive now} episode.

Candice Wu 19:01
See you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Chinelle Rojas 0:00

“I’m just a go-getter. It’s a bit like I like to say in my bio, I’m a go-getter. I go get groceries, go get things for my kids, but I also, you know, a creative at heart. So, I’m always trying to channel that into something.”

Candice Wu 0:23

That’s Chinelle Rojas, the guest of this episode, Chinelle brings an intimate, raw, real, unapologetic, tender and powerful way of revealing stories and experiences of births, and very specific images of women and families of color in their goddess, and between worlds with their babies.

Candice Wu 0:44

In this episode, she talks about how she’s able to create a ripple effect of change for black women and women of color through her photography.

Candice Wu 0:57

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, embodied healing and self-love.

Candice Wu 1:10

My name is Candice Wu and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist, sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:28

I want to make a quick announcement that also is in support of the podcast that I’ve recently been supporting people by holding one-on-one emergence with them. This is completely collaborative and designed specifically by you or you can hand over the details to me to handle, but it is a wonderful opportunity to get one on one time with me in an immersive setting where we can work exactly what with what you are wanting, desiring, challenged within your life, from all these different ways of embodied healing, family constellations, somatic experiencing, spiritual practices, voice dialogue as well as being a space that you and I select together that can hold your experience.

Candice Wu 2:25

This can be with or without a horse, where we have experiences to be with a horse, and journey into connection and wisdom that the horse can bring. The horses are extremely intuitive and consents, what you’re feeling and what you’re not feeling, and mirror that to you as a way to bring you more information on the next path of your life.

Candice Wu 2:53

I love doing this work with people because it gives me the chance to hold that space in a longer period of time that we can really go deep and get to the root of things as well as support you in feeling the peace and pleasure that you want to feel. You can find more about that at CandiceWu.com, and also by reaching out to me via email or through the website at Embody at CandiceWu.com.

Candice Wu 3:21

This offering, as well as other offerings that I have, are all in support of the podcast. Some of the proceeds go towards producing this podcast and bringing new guests on, and I’ve been talking about this for a couple of weeks now, but there is a database of all healing experientials and meditations that are on the podcast by me as well as guests, and you can search on that for things that you’re looking for, the pages at CandiceWu.com/meditations. The podcast also has its own search at CandiceWu.com/podcast.

Candice Wu 3:57

On top of that, each of the podcasts are being transcribed. The experientials and meditations are, too. So, in case you prefer to digest the material through the written word and your visual acuity, then you can go on to each podcast link, and right below where it says that you can click to listen, there’s a transcription. The experientials and meditations are being completed in backward order, so, starting from the newest and most recent, working its way backward, and we’ve got about three-quarters of them done, which is really exciting. Now let’s jump into this episode.

Candice Wu 4:37

Welcome, everyone. It’s good to have you back. As we bring this episode forward, I want to highlight how Chinelle brought the topic of how powerful in images, we look at images all the time, and they inform what we think, what we think we know, what we know, and how it is that we approach the world, and I was just thinking about being with horses, and all of the pictures that I’ve been posting on Instagram lately of just being around them and with them meditating with them, and there is a part of me that hopes that more people will see that where horses are at liberty and they’re not forced to do anything, but we respect them and listen to them, and are able to take in the wisdom that they’re bringing, the gifts that they’re bringing without forcing them to do what they don’t want to do.

Candice Wu 5:38

Of course, some horses love riding or love to work in a certain way, but some of them are not and they’re hurt or taken from their homes or forced to do things when they’re showing us with their cues and their emotions that they don’t like it. So, that was just something I’ve been thinking about as I had completed this interview with Chinelle, and I wonder in what way you might find inspiration with that in the images that you’re sharing. What is it that you share if you post on Facebook, Instagram or LinkedIn or any sort of social media? What is it that you see? And what is that doing for? What is the status quo or the change that is emerging in the world?

Candice Wu 6:34

So, just some food for thought as we jump into this episode, with Chinelle Rojas, who is the Tampa birth photographer. Chinelle’s eye for honesty in her photographs and life is really beautiful and inspiring to me, and it on earth silenced and quieted areas of our humanity into conversation through her imagery. She shares that she started her photography journey late in 2010, and shot her first birth in the spring of 2011, and she’s an advocate in the birth community and the founder of The Melanated Birth, which is a community dedicated to the representation of families of color and birth, and whose mission is to bring awareness to women of color of all the options available to them through their birthing process, through imagery of birth.

Candice Wu 7:26

So, from her, you’ll learn why diversity in the birth world is greatly needed, and how it can truly save lives, and how if you’re a photographer, you can work towards building a diverse portfolio or if you are interested in having someone capture the moments of your birth or in bringing your birth images to the world, you can touch in wishing out. I also really enjoyed the part of the conversation where we talked about slaves birthing, and what she did when she googled it and found only like one image, the creative solution she found to bring some exposure to that world. So, without further ado, here is Chinelle Rojas.

Candice Wu 8:19

Right, Chinelle, I’m so excited to have you here today on the podcast. Your work has really inspired me and I just love scrolling through Instagram. You’re a birth photographer, wife, mom, an advocate, logo designer, videographer and photographer. It’s a lot of things. So, I’d like to welcome you to the show.

Chinelle Rojas 8:41

Thanks for having me.

Candice Wu 8:44

So, tell me, tell me about your work and what draws you into what you do.

Chinelle Rojas 8:51

So, obviously, that depends on what work you’re referring to, exactly…

Candice Wu 8:57

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 8:58

Because I do a lot of things, but with the birth, like the whole birth photography thing, backstory as a kid growing up, I was wanted to be a doctor, and then I got to the end of high school and realized in order to be a doctor, I had to do a lot more school, and decided, maybe not, I don’t want to be a doctor.

Candice Wu 9:25

The practical side comes through.

Chinelle Rojas 9:27

Yeah, you’re like, No, no, I don’t think so.

Candice Wu 9:29

You, not too much.

Chinelle Rojas 9:30

So, I hung that up. The whole idea of being a doctor, I did attempt to go to college like four times and dropped out four times, wasted money and all that kind of stuff, but ultimately, I kind of found my way into the birth photography realm and realized this is a way to be a part of the medical community. Things that interest me don’t curse me out without actually having to have a degree and go to school for a bajillion more years, and I just like the storytelling aspect of it, and it’s so empowering just to be like a witness to like life coming into the world. There’s nothing like it and I just kind of enjoy doing it. I’m so glad that I like, took that step and tried it.

Candice Wu 10:35

Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, maybe it’s really fitting we can hear your kids in the background. Talking about life into the world and touring the world.

Chinelle Rojas 10:46

Yes.

Candice Wu 10:47

Yeah. You know, that was really, that’s really one of the things that draws me to your photography, with birth photography is that it just, it feels like you are capturing and you’re witnessing and being with this just magical experience that probably has no words to describe, but if you could try, what is it like for you to be in the room with a woman or a couple, whoever is birthing, and to documented and capture these moments.

Chinelle Rojas 11:26

It’s transcendent. I like that word. It’s a good word, but it’s a really amazing experience that you don’t really get tired of. You get this thing you go into a birth, as soon as I get a call from a client, I could be half-asleep, and I get a call and I am immediately awake, full of adrenaline ready to get going. When I get to a birth, I’m there with the family, just being a part of that piece of their story. So, they’re going to remember that I was there, you know, their baby might not, but, they’ll remember that I was there and I was able to document that for them.

Chinelle Rojas 12:15

So, that’s really awesome. It also appeals to my interest in birth, well, the medical field in general. I always learn something new at every birth, like something that I didn’t know before or you know, wasn’t fully aware of. So, like I just add a little bit more, a little bit more to my toolbox of random knowledge that maybe would help another birthing family at some point.

Candice Wu 12:46

Um, what are some of those things?

Chinelle Rojas 12:49

This is something that I learned not at a birth but in, like, one of my mom groups, like pregnancy groups. When my daughter was born, we had another mom in the mom group who, when she had her son, he got stuck in the birth canal. So, he had shoulder dystocia and because of that, he ended up having, what is it? Erb’s palsy, which I found very interesting.

Chinelle Rojas 13:22

So, fast forward, less than a year later, I was at a birth and this family, baby got stuck on the way out. It was a very awesome birth, and then things got really crazy, really quickly. They, things were happening so fast that they had no idea what was going on. They just know that all of a sudden, doctors are pushing on her belly and trying to get the baby out as quick as possible. Dad did not get to cut the cord and as soon as they took the baby out, he went straight to a warmer, and they were just confused, like, they didn’t know, “What was happening?” Stuff like that, and being that I kind of paid attention to that other mom’s experience. I was able to kind of reassure them because I went over and I was taking pictures of the baby, they were making sure he was okay and everything was moving good.

Chinelle Rojas 14:21

So, in doing that, I walked back over to the family and I let them know, like, “Hey, this is kind of what’s happening.” You know, as everybody’s attention is on the baby, and her OB’s attention is on making sure that she’s like, okay, after pushing the baby out, you know, getting the placenta out, all that kind of stuff. So, I was just like, you know, I went up to them and I was just going to kind of explaining to them what was happening because nobody at that particular moment was telling them anything.

Chinelle Rojas 14:53

So…

Candice Wu 14:54

Wow, which is very scary, you know, when you don’t have any information…

Chinelle Rojas 14:57

..yeah, so, they will do something they didn’t know what to do or what was happening and I just kind of told him I was like, “Yeah, he got stuck. Right now, they’re just making sure that he can move his arm and it looks like everything’s gonna be fine because he was, you know, raising it just fine and all that kind of stuff.” So, I’m like, I don’t think there’s going to be any lasting effects. After a few minutes, and they confirmed what I had told them already, the baby got handed to mother and everything was fine.

Candice Wu 15:28

Ah, that’s so nice.

Chinelle Rojas 15:30

It was really special to me just because that was the first time ever that an OB walked up to me after everything was all said and done, and she was like, this family’s very lucky to have had you as part of their team. So, thank you, and I was like, “Oh my God.”

Candice Wu 15:47

Oh my gosh, I want to cry hearing this.

Chinelle Rojas 15:53

That was like the first time I ever heard this especially from an OB because you know, like, typically, you don’t expect them to be that welcoming, especially in the case of an emergency situation or stuff like that.

Candice Wu 16:06

Right.

Chinelle Rojas 16:06

So, that was really, really reassuring to hear.

Candice Wu 16:11

And what an essential part of everything you were, not just in documenting, but in seeing and knowing what was going on and to be that grounding presence that supports them. That’s amazing.

Chinelle Rojas 16:27

It was really nice. And things like that similar things have happened, in different births or whatever we’re like something might be happening, and the family could be a first time parent, could be a young parent, young, first-time parent all of the above, who’s just like unsure of what to do or what is happening, and just need somebody to like, explain to them on a, like, basic level. So, what’s going on what their options are and stuff like that. That’s not my job. My job is just to take pictures. If they’re looking to me for answers to questions that they might have, like, you know, when the doctor steps out of the room and stuff like that, then I will happily answer. You know, at the end of the day, my job is to support them and whatever decision that they make, and I feel like you can only make a really good decision if you know the options.

Candice Wu 17:26

Hmm, beautiful. And I don’t know if you know this about me, Chinelle, but I work with a lot of trauma, and sometimes, that’s emotional or relational. Sometimes, that’s getting in a car accident and where someone’s nervous system is shaken up, and sometimes, it’s with birth experiences or whether that the baby or the mother or the father or the partner or whoever. And so, when I say it’s trauma, just an experience that’s overwhelming to the nervous system…

Chinelle Rojas 18:02

Right.

Candice Wu 18:02

…or scary in some way, and when life is coming through there can be moments of fear of death or what will happen, and I can just imagine that you being in the room, too, with your presence, and documenting and capturing the experience that sometimes when you experience overwhelm you don’t see everything or recall it.

Chinelle Rojas 18:29

Oh, for sure.

Candice Wu 18:30

And here you are. Yeah, you have this extra lens, not just your eyes, but the camera lens, and that just seems like it can complete help complete something for the family if they needed that for that tool as well, you know, like, “Wow, I didn’t know that happened,” to experience anything related to what I’m saying.

Chinelle Rojas 18:54

Oh my gosh, like, in my own personal experience, as a birthing person, there are things that you do not remember, while having your baby, like, you could try all your might, you will not remember it. So, I feel like it’s so important to have that somebody there, even if it’s not a professional, although professional would be ideal, have somebody there to document that whole experience because you would be amazed at the things you missed.

Chinelle Rojas 19:30

For instance, on my third child, my daughter, is my last baby. So, I had both my mom and my dad, as well as my husband, at the birth of my daughter. It was very interesting considering my parents are divorced, so, it was like, they’re like brothers, it was actually a really good experience because they were like acting as if they were almost like brother and sister and the dynamic of speaking and…

Candice Wu 20:01

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 20:02

…my sister was sick at the time, so I didn’t have her to document that birth, but I did give my dad the camera. Granted like 75% of the images were blown out or just blurry, but some of the stuff he did capture, I was like, “I do not remember that at all.” And one of the images that stood out to me the most was a picture of my mom, on it, she’s on the opposite side of the bed as my dad was standing and my husband, and as soon as my daughter came out the look on her face was very, like, she was an “Oh!” [Child noises in the background] Oh my gosh, I’m sorry. She’s gonna come like during a time when I wasn’t in the middle of a story.

Candice Wu 20:50

Well, is she the one you’re talking about?

Chinelle Rojas 20:52

She is the one.

Candice Wu 20:53

That’s why she came.

Chinelle Rojas 20:54

She is the one.

Candice Wu 20:56

Maybe she felt you.

Chinelle Rojas 20:58

Caught me talking about her.

Candice Wu 21:00

I believe that. I have been working with horses has really shown me that, too, because all I need to do is think something.

Chinelle Rojas 21:11

Mm-hmm.

Candice Wu 21:12

If I’m connected with the horses, and either they’ll respond to it.

Chinelle Rojas 21:16

That’s awesome.

Candice Wu 21:18

Or I can be totally on grounded and they’re like, not paying attention to me, and that’s exactly reflecting what’s going on to me. I wouldn’t doubt that.

Chinelle Rojas 21:27

Maybe I should channel that for my parenting.

Candice Wu 21:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 21:33

Because they can sense your fear.

Candice Wu 21:37

Yes, they can. Well, and if they don’t know it, they’re nervous systems do. Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 21:44

They know when you don’t know what you’re doing.

Candice Wu 21:46

Right.

Chinelle Rojas 21:51

Yeah.

Candice Wu 21:52

So, you were in the middle of saying when she came out, your mom’s face?

Chinelle Rojas 21:58

Yeah. When my daughter came out, the look on my mom’s face was just, I don’t know, it was indescribable, like, she had a big ol smile on her face tears in her eyes, and she was just like, in awe, you know, and I don’t know that picture is very special to me because here I am pushing my daughter out. My daughter’s emerging, and my mom is there in the frame witnessing it all, and that’s a moment I didn’t know was happening. You know.

Candice Wu 22:31

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 22:31

Not been for that picture, I would have never known that was what was going on with my mother. So, like, that’s just one instance. I get all the time from, you know, birthing families, like I didn’t even realize that that was the thing or that I was doing that or that my partner was doing that. I don’t know. It’s just, it’s amazing to be able to like fill in those gaps.

Candice Wu 22:59

Yeah. That sounds incredible, and it’s such an experience that you’d want us, and not in every case, of course, but if it were me, I’d want to see every single bit of the experience, you know, if everyone in the room. Maybe there were things I want to see it myself, but this precious, precious moments like your mom in awe.

Chinelle Rojas 23:28

exactly. I only, like, my only regret with all three of my kids was that I didn’t hire an actual professional. With my first son, I didn’t even know birth photography was a thing. So, I have like zero pictures to remember that experience with him. With my second I had my sister and I was still like, very young in the birth photography world, I guess. So, I told my sister I was like, I do not want any crowd shots, and what do I look at or what do I see when I’m scrolling through the pictures that she took, but crotch shots.

Candice Wu 24:11

Oh.

Chinelle Rojas 24:12

Like, are you serious? And I wasn’t even, like, it wasn’t even crowning, like, that’s what annoying part is like, it’s just literally my vagina all out in the open and swollen because the baby’s coming down, but he’s not crowning. So, it’s not really…

Candice Wu 24:30

It’s not the moment.

Chinelle Rojas 24:32

Like, why are these here? You know, and then when I have my dad and most of the pictures did not come out good, you know, and I would have loved to have also seen what my husband’s face looked like…

Candice Wu 24:46

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 24:47

…because I have no idea. I would have loved to be able to see my dad in the pictures because I know he was there, you know, but I don’t know.

Candice Wu 24:57

And this is really, you know, I feel sad that you don’t have those experiences for you, and at the same time, it also sounds like that informs how you’re able to capture for the families, the story of what’s going on, you’re paying attention to each person in the room.

Chinelle Rojas 25:16

Yes, which can be really hard, especially if there are some more people, it can be really hard to, you know, focus on everyone. So, I always ask my clients, like, they get a questionnaire, a little in-take questionnaire, like, what moments are most important to you? Most people say, “I want a good mix of everything,” but I’m like, you know, at the same time, why are you more interested in seeing the emotions of people’s faces? Do you want the moment of birth? Or would you prefer, you know, just the feel of the room?

Candice Wu 25:55

Mm-hmm.

Chinelle Rojas 25:56

So, that helps to dictate what I capture as well, but overall, I think I’m getting like, it’s still a little bit of a learning curve to try to be able to get everybody.

Candice Wu 26:10

Yeah, so I can imagine that would be hard.

Chinelle Rojas 26:13

Yeah, but I do my best at worse, I get the immediate feelings of like, like right after birth. So, and all the moments leading up to it.

Candice Wu 26:27

Wow. So, I want to shift gears a little bit. I’m really interested in your activism work with this. Something that I saw on your website is that you’re dedicated to the representation of families of color, in birth, and spreading awareness of birth options to women of color, and what you said was “A world where our little pebble of documenting births can make waves on the mortality rate of mothers across the country or the world.” How amazing would that be?

Chinelle Rojas 27:05

Yes, yes. That would be amazing.

Candice Wu 27:11

Can you talk about how you see this and what it is that you see as part of what you’re doing here, or as an outcome of what you’re doing?

Chinelle Rojas 27:19

I feel like being as, being a birth photographer, we have a very unique role in the birth space, and that says a documenter. I feel like, I don’t know, especially in the age of like social media and stuff like that, people are influenced by what they see. Their choices are skewed by what they’re seeing other people doing. So, my thought process is that if we, as people of color, are able to see more people birthing in, you know, “non-traditional ways”, which, like, in reality, they are actually the most traditional ways.

Candice Wu 28:03

Yeah, like, probably their most indigenous ways.

Chinelle Rojas 28:08

Exactly. Outside of a hospital, not using epidurals, not like, you know, choosing to have a C section, then maybe those images that we see will encourage us to at least look into other options besides what we consider the norm, which would be in a hospital without the drugs, you know, which I think in seeing those images, then we have a chance to curb the mortality rate. So, it is almost common knowledge, now. At least in the birth world, I feel that Black Americans, I don’t like to say African Americans because not all black Americans are African Americans. So, Black Americans are dying at three to four times the rate of every other racial demographic in the United States during pregnancy postpartum, and birth, which is outrageous.

Candice Wu 29:25

It’s outrageous.

Chinelle Rojas 29:26

And most of these, yes, most of these deaths are happening in the hospital setting where you think you’d be the safest. So, that’s why I feel like when we see pictures of women who look like us birthing in places outside of a hospital, maybe seeing that triggering, the thought that “Hey, maybe I can do that, too.” Then you’d be more likely to look into the other options that are available to you, possibly pursue those options and ultimately, you could be saving your own life by choosing to go a different route.

Chinelle Rojas 30:03

So, that’s what I mean by like the little pebble, just an image, and of course it takes those of us taking the images and those of us in the images to be willing to share those images.

Candice Wu 30:17

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 30:17

You know, not everybody’s comfortable with sharing this story, okay. It shouldn’t be anyone person’s job to spread awareness to the world, but in sharing, like or being willing to share if it was a to really save someone’s life. So, that’s really the ultimate…

Candice Wu 30:37

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 30:38

..goal.

Candice Wu 30:39

Yeah. It’s a really beautiful reminder overall of the power of sharing in one image, one pebble, but specifically for saving, saving lives and Black lives, especially given the statistics that you shared and I was just curious if you had a sense of why that is that Black Americans are dying at a rate of three to four times more.

Chinelle Rojas 31:10

Yes, it is multifaceted. It is the health care system. There’s a lot of unspoken racial bias when it comes to the healthcare system, like maybe in terms of like pain management and stuff like that. It’s often noted that Black Americans have a higher pain tolerance. So, maybe when they complain of pain, it’s brushed off, you know, as, “Oh, it’s probably nothing or whatever they can handle it.” And in turn that leads to, it’s like we’re not being listened to. So, we’re not getting the care that we need. So, it just trickles down and in some cases, it causes that. That’s one.

Candice Wu 32:04

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 32:05

One of the biggest things like the whole systemic racism.

Candice Wu 32:09

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 32:09

And it’s happening.

Candice Wu 32:10

Right.

Chinelle Rojas 32:12

But also, I cannot in good conscience put it all on the medical field. I haven’t gotten backlash for saying this before, too, but I believe that we have a role to play in the crisis as well. I mean, I feel like we need to be interested in stepping outside of our comfort zone, you know, and taking the necessary steps to take control of our health and not rely solely on what a doctor says, just because they’re a doctor. You know what I mean?

Candice Wu 32:54

Absolutely.

Chinelle Rojas 32:56

So, yeah, we have the power to save our own lives, but we get complacent as well.

Candice Wu 33:02

Mmm-hmm. And you have this provocative and stimulating series, Unto Us, a Slave is Born. It’s one of the titles they think.

Chinelle Rojas 33:17

Yes.

Candice Wu 33:17

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 33:20

I just added a third part of that.

Candice Wu 33:24

I saw that just before the interview today, so…

Chinelle Rojas 33:28

Yes.

Candice Wu 33:29

….can you speak to this series for those who haven’t seen it and for those who have.

Chinelle Rojas 33:35

Okay, so, the series stemmed from me. Well, last year, I started to shift in my business, I decided to stop being so quiet about the things that bother me, the things that I see and just be more vocal about my feelings, and actually, allow it to trickle into my business. Doing so, changed my logo, all that kind of stuff, to be more representative of who I am as a person. And while I was doing all that, I was like, “Oh my gosh, I wonder what kind of images that I could find on Google about like, I want to see what it looked like for, like our ancestors, slaves in America to give birth,” like a wondered really deeply what that might have looked like. I found minor articles, but like, the only real image I kept popping up on Google Images was that image of, oh my gosh, what’s his name? James Marion Simmons, and the slave woman he was experimenting on, on a table. The only image that I could really find just readily accessible on Google, you know.

Candice Wu 35:01

Hmm. Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 35:02

This is crap. What is this?

Candice Wu 35:04

There’s no documentation, practically.

Chinelle Rojas 35:06

Like where, but nothing that you could find it easily. Yeah, I mean, I’ve heard people say that they like in college, they were shown the images like X, Y, and Z that depicted similar things but it’s like, where are these images for the rest of us to see? Because it really wasn’t easy for me to find on the internet. Google failed me. So, I decided to create what I imagined it would look like, based on the little bit of reading material I was able to find.

Chinelle Rojas 35:30

So, the first image set in The Unto Us a Slave is Born series just depicted a woman in a super dingy place, like, not very clean, sterile type environment and have a baby with a midwife and having a baby outside. So, that was the first one. The second one was called The Sins of Their Fathers, so it depicted a woman breastfeeding a mixed baby, the baby was hers, but also her slave masters, while also tending to a fellow slave who was laboring, and then my latest set is called Labor in Labor. So, it’s actually like a trigger a little bit more of a trigger for people probably because it depicts a slave working in the field, going into labor and realizing that she is miscarrying. So, yeah, each set has like a little write up on it and all that kind of stuff and just kind of let people know where my head was at while shooting those images.

Candice Wu 37:13

Yeah, I mean, it’s so powerful in the way you are going right into what you could dream up. That’s not the right word, because this is definitely not dreaming, but what you could imagine as a possible reality, what Black people faced in the birthing process and not being afraid of what that could look like.

Chinelle Rojas 37:46

Exactly. And what was crazy as this last set, I had been, it had been in my mind since I shot the part two.

Candice Wu 37:57

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 37:57

So, for the last nine months, this last image shot had been in my mind, and I was so glad to finally like, get it out of my head and like, in tangible form for everybody else to see what was in my mind and what I was thinking about.

Candice Wu 38:19

Yeah. Wow, and I don’t know if this has anything to do with your process at all, but what happened to me, in me as you were just saying that was a feeling of the ancestors, and the sense set when there’s been such devastation or pain or even wonderment, any profound experience like we want it to be seen and acknowledged, and I just had this feeling sense of the idea that maybe ancestors are asking for this to be seen.

Chinelle Rojas 39:00

I feel like it, too, I feel like their stories deserve to be told, you know, and it’s something that is not seen or talked about enough. And, you know, I mean, in recent times, it has been talked about a lot. However, like, we have nothing to like, put pictures to words, you know, to describe what we’re thinking, what we’re feeling what our ancestors have had to experience. I feel like that’s super important to kind of put a face to the stories, even if it’s not an actual, you know, slave. It is to pay homage to those who basically had to go through the ultimate trial. So interesting topic.

Candice Wu 40:05

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 40:06

And I’m like, I like to provoke thought, especially with my project, when it comes to those when it comes to myself fortress, all that kind of stuff like I like to provoke thought if possible, and I really hope that that series does that.

Candice Wu 40:28

It definitely provokes thought and me. For me, it was just really thinking about, as I said, ancestors and what they want to be seen, and to be honored, but also what birthing means and how much it’s been silenced. In many spaces, especially in spaces where people have been oppressed or enslaved, and it’s just this missing piece, as you said in your Google search. Now, maybe there’s some stuff out there, but it’s not on Google, and that really says something. And then it asked of me to feel into, “What about my ancestry? What about my experiences with that?” And really just open the door? I didn’t really, it didn’t open up new things at the moment, but just wondering where have been, there been times where women have experienced really hard experience around their birthing or maybe they had to do it in secret, but yeah, I’m curious what other people are thinking.

Chinelle Rojas 41:49

That’s very interesting.

Candice Wu 41:52

Do you want to talk about your ancestry?

Chinelle Rojas 41:56

What is funny is that I am not American, which is probably why I also take offense to when people say African American, like they assume that every black person in America is just African American.

Candice Wu 42:15

Yeah. And you know, I’ve done that, but yeah, appreciate you talking about it, too.

Chinelle Rojas 42:23

Yeah, we’re not, we are all over, you know, we’re from all over.

Candice Wu 42:29

Humm.

Chinelle Rojas 42:30

I am originally from Trinidad. I grew up here in the States, in Tampa, Florida. Thanks to my dad, he joined the army here in the United States. So, I had the privilege of “growing up here,” that’s not to say that my ancestors were not slaves, because all across the Caribbean, that’s where a lot of the slaves were being dropped off. So, I actually have African ancestry as well as Indian ancestry. Indians were brought to my country, Trinidad as indentured servants and Africans were brought as slaves. So, I actually am mixed. Well, I’m a proud Trinidadian who feels like, I can be a voice or those who look like me here in the States.

Candice Wu 43:37

Thank goodness. Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 43:41

Like, I don’t know if that makes me lose some credibility, but it doesn’t matter to me, because I know, I’ve been here, I didn’t just come here. You know what I mean? I’ve been here, I’m almost 30. So, I’ve been here, 26 years of my life.

Candice Wu 44:04

That’s a significant amount of time.

Chinelle Rojas 44:07

I’m practically American.

Candice Wu 44:09

But you know, even just you saying that… it was like, no like, hell no. When you said, does that make me lose credibility? It’s like you are you, but I do understand the reality of how people can perceive that and what that brings and

Chinelle Rojas 44:29

Right.

Candice Wu 44:30

But, hmm.

Chinelle Rojas 44:32

I do like to throw it out there sometimes like: “Fun fact, I’m not from here”.

Candice Wu 44:36

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 44:37

And I am actually glad that I’m not from.

Candice Wu 44:45

Yeah, I think a lot of people might be jealous,

Chinelle Rojas 44:49

Great, I am not an American. So, my kids are but I’m not. But that’s another reason we are… another fun fact: we are actually moving our family back to Trinidad.

Candice Wu 45:05

Oh, my goodness. Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 45:08

Yes.

Candice Wu 45:08

What?

Chinelle Rojas 45:09

At the end of this year.

Candice Wu 45:10

Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 45:12

And a lot of that is so that our children who are half Trinidadian, my husband, he’s Honduran and Black American. So, we’re trying to give our kids and, like an experience of living in another country, and another culture that they are actually associated with, to experience things outside of the US bubble. We were just there for a month, and what was interesting, with my kids they didn’t want to come back home. Like they didn’t want to come back to the States.

Candice Wu 45:49

Wow. That’s a good thing.

Chinelle Rojas 45:51

Interesting for a, right, and they are four, seven and nine and they didn’t want to come back.

Candice Wu 45:58

Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 46:00

But something that we noticed down there and it like, I don’t know, it solidified me wanting to go down and stay down there, even more, was that, while we were visiting, they have a holiday and it’s called emancipation day. That’s something that they don’t have here in the States. Emancipation day is literally a national holiday in Trinidad where they celebrate the freedom of slavery, like from slavery, I mean. So, they have all this African, basically a beautiful African type festival, parades in the streets, people calling on the ancestor. This is like a beautiful and amazing, amazing experience, and I was so glad that I got to experience it down there, and I was like, why do we not have this in the States, you know, and it’s also super different to be in a country where when you look around 98% of the people look like you.

Candice Wu 47:07

Yeah, that makes a huge difference.

Chinelle Rojas 47:11

Yeah, versus the other way around, where that’s not how we feel where we are. So, I don’t know, it’s just a beautiful, beautiful experience, and I’m so glad that we personally have that chance and the opportunity to be able to, you know, allow our children to experience that.

Candice Wu 47:32

That’s amazing. I’m so excited for all of you.

Chinelle Rojas 47:36

Thanks, but I will be back in the states often, so like.

Candice Wu 47:40

Are you coming back to do birthing sessions? Or do you, what’s your plan?

Chinelle Rojas 47:46

My plan is, at least for now to kind of build my business because I have made a name for myself here in the Tampa Bay area. As a birth photographer, I’m actually building a little bit of a team, and document the birth on my behalf here while we are living abroad, edit and do all that other stuff and still be part of the client experience just minus the shooting. I do plan on coming up here almost a yearly, at least, probably for a couple of months and probably while I’m up here, I will take clients and stuff like that, too. So, it’s gonna be great.

Candice Wu 48:31

Yeah, that’s a really great way expand, too.

Chinelle Rojas 48:35

Yes, but in the meantime, I’m actually going to be hosting retreats for birth photographers as well, and I’m bringing people to my home country and allowing them to experience Trinidad and Tobago, and also have a chance to learn from other birth photographers so their birth workers and just kind of build themselves up, learn about self-care and you know, enjoy, like, the Caribbean, for a few days.

Candice Wu 49:06

Yes. So cool. When is that going to be?

Chinelle Rojas 49:10

So, my first one is in May 2020. I’m already planning for May 2021.

Candice Wu 49:16

Wow.

Chinelle Rojas 49:18

So, it’s gonna be amazing. A super intimate experience. Lots of fun, all-inclusive, like, it’s gonna be great. So great. I can’t explain how excited I am. I just want May to be here so I can make this happen.

Candice Wu 49:36

If I add on more things to my career list or interest, and to birth photography, which is really interesting to me, I will come and join you.

Chinelle Rojas 49:52

For sure. It’s called “Birth at the Beach” because I’m quirky and I like names like that so…

Candice Wu 50:01

Perfect.

Chinelle Rojas 50:03

The Birth at the Beach Retreat. So…

Candice Wu 50:06

Great. Yeah, check it out there if you’re listening. And also you have the Melanatedbirth.com. Can you tell us about that?

Chinelle Rojas 50:15

I do. And I’m actually working on phasing out the actual website just because, you know, I feel like I could almost be more beneficial to people on social media, because it’s about the photos, really.

Candice Wu 50:32

Oh, yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 50:33

But the melon at birth, it was a way for people to be able to find other like birth photographers and stuff like that, who can provide the service that they need, then quite take off the way I would have liked. It was kind of like, this kind of stagnant for a while. So, I’m shifting focus, shifting gears and kind of maybe focusing more on the social media aspect of it as that’s where most of the people find out about The Melanated Birth. So, and The Melanated Birth is basically just a place where you can go to so you can find it on Instagram and Facebook, where if you want to see a plethora of images and videos of people of color giving birth, that’s where you want to go, because that’s all we share.

Candice Wu 51:25

Right.

Chinelle Rojas 51:26

Just to kind of, you know, piggyback off of what I said earlier: we are trying to save lives.

Candice Wu 51:34

Yes.

Chinelle Rojas 51:34

The best way to do that is by showing that birth in different settings is possible for everyone.

Candice Wu 51:45

That’s so great. I’m so glad you exist and are doing this. And I…

Chinelle Rojas 51:51

Same to you.

Candice Wu 51:52

Thank you. I just want to say that your photographs just feel so intimate and raw, and tender and powerful at the same time. And you have mentioned capturing images of women and families and color in their goddess and between worlds with their babies. They just love that. So, I wanted to end with that and just hear your thoughts on what it is to be between worlds.

Chinelle Rojas 52:24

Well.

Candice Wu 52:30

It’s a hard one

Chinelle Rojas 52:31

Try to figure out the best way to word that one.

Candice Wu 52:33

Uh-huh.

Chinelle Rojas 52:35

Because like, how do you even describe that?

Candice Wu 52:37

Exactly. I don’t even know.

Chinelle Rojas 52:41

It’s so hard to describe, like…

Candice Wu 52:42

Maybe let’s create pictures.

Chinelle Rojas 52:45

You could just see it, I think, because when you think about it, when a child is being born there between worlds, but what you don’t also think about is while that child is being born, so is the parent.

Candice Wu 53:00

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 53:00

You know.

Candice Wu 53:01

Like the parents are being born.

Chinelle Rojas 53:03

Like, inherit, exactly. Like we forget that notion. Women are pregnant or you know, people, in general, they’re pregnant for nine months-ish give or take, and they’re housing this baby, they’re housing this baby, and then they have this baby and then no longer are they the center of attention.

Candice Wu 53:28

Mm-hmm.

Chinelle Rojas 53:29

You know, like that whole dynamic changes, and it’s a… I don’t know like it’s mind blown. Like…

Candice Wu 53:38

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 53:41

…like how do you really describe like being in between? Like I don’t, it’s hard. It’s hard because I’m even trying to think back because of my own experiences of pushing babies out. And that moment from the last few pushes, like they are a blur. Like, you go from pushing to next, you know, you have this baby in your hand and like everything in between your life, what happened? My husband, actually, he likes to describe witnessing birth as being an out-of-body experience, for him, you know, like, I don’t like it. I don’t like not feeling in control of whatever’s going to happen.

Candice Wu 54:31

It’s such a vulnerable moment, time, period. Just many moments of that sounds like.

Chinelle Rojas 54:39

Exactly. Sorry, I couldn’t answer that way, stronger. I guess it’s so hard that one, that question.

Candice Wu 54:47

No, it’s perfect, because how can you really describe that? And as you said, you just have to look at the image and you feel it, you know.

Chinelle Rojas 54:57

Look at the picture or you just were there. You have to have, the best way for you to understand the feeling is to get a chance to witness it or physically go through it, yourself, and even then, it’s hard to describe.

Candice Wu 55:15

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 55:18

Because there’s such a fine line between birth and death — it’s so crazy. I feel like every time I’m at a birth, I just hear somebody stomping around shoes and shoes that don’t fit them, but every time I’m at of birth, and a baby comes out, I somehow wonder who in that moment has passed away?

Candice Wu 55:52

Oh. Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 55:55

Like at this very same time as this life is coming into the world, somebody is no longer breathing, and then I always think — well wonder — how does that all work? You know, you get all deep and philosophical and stuff but you don’t really have time because you got a job to do, so…

Candice Wu 56:12

It happens in this flash of a moment and then you’re on the next photograph.

Chinelle Rojas 56:17

So basically, basically.

Candice Wu 56:21

Wow, well, I think that really brings it to the forefront like the intensity of the feeling of between worlds is the fine line between life and death, as you said. Thank you so much, Chinelle, is there anything else you want to share today?

Chinelle Rojas 56:41

Ahm, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I think we covered a lot.

Candice Wu 56:48

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 56:48

Actually, which is amazing.

Candice Wu 56:50

It is.

Chinelle Rojas 56:52

So many things. I’m doing so many things. There are so many things.

Candice Wu 56:56

Yeah, we didn’t even talk about their video work or anything like that.

Chinelle Rojas 57:01

We did. I do all the things.

Candice Wu 57:03

You do all the things!

Chinelle Rojas 57:03

Oh, my God!

Candice Wu 57:07

What were you about to say? Before I interrupted it.

Chinelle Rojas 57:10

Yeah, I’m just really just, I’m just a go-getter just like” I like to say in my bio, I’m a go-getter. I go get groceries, go get things for my kids, but I’m a creative at heart, so, I’m always like trying to channel that into something.

Candice Wu 57:36

Yeah

Chinelle Rojas 57:37

So, whether that be working on logos for others, documenting births or you know, just helping other people with stuff, just love it.

Candice Wu 57:49

That’s awesome.

Chinelle Rojas 57:50

So glad to have gotten to talk to you and hear what you’re about and stuff like that, too, like this really awesome.

Candice Wu 57:59

Thank you.

Chinelle Rojas 58:00

I think it’s so interesting, the whole dynamic of ancestral trauma, like any think about that stuff, too, and I’ve heard this a few times, too, how that explains a lot of why the black community is perceived the way that they are, and it’s has a lot to do with the trauma that wasn’t lifted on the community during the slavery era. That’s not something that just disappears.

Candice Wu 58:18

Yeah.

Chinelle Rojas 58:38

That’s not just something that you could just forget and move on from when it’s kind of ingrained in your DNA.

Candice Wu 58:48

Right, and it’s not quite in enough spaces or in the right spaces, maybe, hasn’t gotten it’s due acknowledgment, you know, in a personal way, as well as a collective way and so, it just begs to be seen through the next person and generation through us.

Chinelle Rojas 59:15

Yeah, exactly. It’s our job to give them their stories, voices.

Candice Wu 59:22

Yeah. Thank you so much to know. Um, can you just say for everyone listening where to find you besides The Melanated Birth on Instagram, believe you’re at Tampa Birth Photographer, is that right?

Chinelle Rojas 59:37

I am, I’m @theblk.creative, that’s my photography business. I’m also @HelloChinelle, that’s my personal, you’ll see more pictures of me and my kids, there. Occasionally, you might see my husband. And what else do I have? I have so many things. Oh, my gosh. I wouldn’t even list them all…

Candice Wu 1:00:13

Well, we’ll put it all on the website if you want. You covered a lot of bases, you know?

Chinelle Rojas 1:00:19

Yes.

Candice Wu 1:00:20

Yeah.

Candice Wu 1:00:22

But yeah, if you want, we’ll put them all at the link. That’ll be at CandiceWu.com/Chinelle, and that’s your name, and so, if you’re out there and listening, you can just tune into the, jump onto the website and click into all of the spaces you’re at. Thank you so much. This was so fun.

Chinelle Rojas 1:00:43

Same. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Candice Wu 1:00:47

You’re so welcome.

Candice Wu 1:00:51

Thank you so much for joining us today and thank you so much Chinelle. It was lovely to experience you and the behind the scenes of you talking about what it is that goes into your photography work, and how you think about it. It’s really inspiring to have people like Chinelle who are doing something with what they believe and letting that be congruent in their profession, in their life, in all the ways. It really brings us the question of congruency in our lives. Are the things that we’re doing in our profession, in our spaces, in who we interact with, are they can grow and with what it is that we believe? And what we know is really important in this life.

Candice Wu 1:01:48

So, check out her work at all of the social media links that Chinelle has offered. They’re all linked in the show notes, and thank you so much for now for joining us. Before you go, I’d like to invite you to join the Embody Community through the newsletter that I put out every two to three weeks that offers self-love notes, podcast updates, sometimes some book giveaways of guests to the podcast as well as workshops, retreats and immersions, and my travel and inside scoop of my world. You can find that at CandiceWu.com/embody.

Candice Wu 1:02:28

See you all next time on the Embody Podcast.