Men’s Healing & Reclaiming Vulnerability with Brent Garcia – EP23

Candice Wu 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Embody Podcast. This is Candice Wu. And today I have the fabulous honor of interviewing a friend and colleague of mine, Brent Garcia.

Candice Wu 0:12

Brent is an elite body mechanic and he came to the traditional East Asian medicine and Bodywork tradition because he needed relief from an old Achilles tendon injury. And after receiving Acupuncture and massage treatments, he was able to function at a much higher level than he had for the previous 10 years. And that motivated him to study East traditional healing arts including Acupuncture, herbal medicine, Asian Bodywork, and Tai Chi, as well as Reiki.

Candice Wu 0:42

In this conversation, Brent and I talked about reintroducing presence into daily life, the dance of the healer and the inner healer, in a client or patient, Western medicine and traditional Eastern medicine working in tandem, as well as the experience of being a man admitting pain and asking for help, the courage to see your own shame and name it and how he has changed his entire life and transformed in his 40s.

Candice Wu 1:08

When I have gone to see Brent for treatments, as the Licensed Acupuncturist and Reiki practitioner, I’ve left feeling completely renewed and restored. Even just being in his energy is healing because he has such a firm yet gentle approach that just makes me feel like I’m completely supported with non-judgment, and I’m held in a healing space.

Candice Wu 1:32

Brent in 2015, graduated from the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine in Chicago, with a Masters of Science in Traditional Oriental Medicine. And he received his massage training from Pacific College as well.

Candice Wu 1:46

So now, as a licensed practitioner, he continues to study anything that will help him be better and more effective as a healer for his clients. And I witnessed that firsthand.

Candice Wu 1:55

So I’m thrilled to have Brent on the show today, we have such a lovely dynamic, when we talk, we motivate each other. We support each other in our practices and keep each other in check as far as supporting ourselves.

Candice Wu 2:08

You can find out more information about Brent at the end of this episode, as well as on the show notes at CandiceWu.com/podcast.

Candice Wu 2:16

And before we jump into the conversation with Brent, I want to mention today that this episode is brought to you by donations from my listeners. Thank you so much!

Candice Wu 2:27

I recently started a Patreon page as I’ve received many offerings of support so that people can continue to be part of this community, to give me feedback, and to receive some lovely gifts from me through the Patreon page.

Candice Wu 2:41

I’ve designed some personalized healing meditations for those who want to donate monthly. And even a one-time donation or as little as $1 a month would continue to nourish the Embody Podcast to continue to have a life and cover the costs of the production.

Candice Wu 2:59

If the Embody Podcast inspired you, helped or spoken to you in some way, it would mean the world to me if you would show your support through just a small donation. And you can find that on my page at CandiceWu.com/patreon. Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart!

Candice Wu 3:16

And without further ado, let’s jump into our conversation with Brent.

Candice Wu 3:21

I am really happy to be here with my friend and Acupuncturist, Brent Garcia. He also is a Traditional Asian medicine practitioner and Massage Therapist. And, the thing I love about him the most is that he can hold lightness and darkness, he can hold the hard stuff, the challenging stuff, the gritty, the nitty-gritty, and also play and be light, and have fun and connect the two. And he has often helped me do that in myself.

Candice Wu 3:56

This beautiful balance of masculine and feminine in his personality and in his practice. I am thrilled to have you here today, Brent.

Brent Garcia 4:05

I am thrilled to be here. Thanks so much, Candice.

Candice Wu 4:10

So, because I keep messing up exactly what you do. Would you share with everyone, from your perspective what you do?

Brent Garcia 4:19

That’s a great question. I practice Acupuncture. And I’m also a Myofascial Trigger Point Therapist, and I’m also a Licensed Massage Therapist. And I also integrate Thai Bodywork on the table into my work. And on occasion, I’m a Reiki Master practitioner. So, I’ll include that if a client wants that. So basically, what I do is help people without putting them in a box. In other words, like I’m a mechanic, they come to me and say, “Hey, Brent, here’s what I’m dealing with.” And I pull out the appropriate tool to help them.

Brent Garcia 5:06

So some of my treatments, have both Acupuncture and Bodywork. Some are just Bodywork, and some are only Acupuncture. So, I really try my best to help meet the person, wherever they are, with whatever modality is going to fit them best.

Candice Wu 5:26

You have such a beautiful concoction of modalities. And I love the way you put it that you’re a mechanic. It’s so accessible.

Brent Garcia 5:34

Yeah. Which, to be honest, is what I try to do. I try to not make what I do in the medicine that I practice, I try to not make it some crazy big idea. I try to make it accessible and real so that when people come to receive a treatment, they are met right where they are. And I get to be with them and help them without trying to talk down to them or be over them in any way. I really focus on that in myself and in my practice. So yeah, that’s a great choice of words there.

Candice Wu 6:11

Yeah. And earlier, you and I were just talking and chatting. And you mentioned that you were starting to reintroduce presence. And that feels like what you’re talking about here what you do with your clients.

Brent Garcia 6:22

Yeah, in a very real way. Sometimes, just being focused on someone, purely, solely focused on someone, and blocking out any other distractions, can be healing in and of itself. So from the moment I’m meeting a client, whether it’s a new client or a returning one, I try my best. I’m not perfect, but I try my best, when I meet them to be 100% focused on them. Because I believe that starts the process.

Candice Wu 6:22

I am so with you on that. For me, it’s a process of feeling that my presence is completely there. And it’s enough, at least for me, it may not be enough for them. But that I know, I’m enough in myself, that seems to work wonder, it’s like simple.

Brent Garcia 6:43

It’s simple. And in my opinion, that’s all we can do as practitioners and healers.

Candice Wu 6:50

It’s so humble too, what you’re saying.

Brent Garcia 6:55

Exactly. This entire medicine and my entire practice is an experience in humbling myself, you know, in a very real but and very authentic and powerful way. It’s humbling in a powerful way not like degrading, it’s, yeah, this is a humbling, very humbling line of work I chose.

Candice Wu 7:02

Yes, it is. And speaking of your choice, how did you get here as an Acupuncturist plus all the other modalities that you use? And also just how did you get here as you, as who you are today?

Brent Garcia 7:10

Okay great. Yeah, I’ll answer like how I got turned on to Acupuncture, was it’s how I quit smoking. I was a packet A cigarette smoker for a while. I can’t remember now exact years, but, I smoked a pack a day. And, I was at the point where it was starting to get annoying. I was starting to notice my clothing was smelling to where I noticed it. And if I notice it on myself then other people absolutely notice it.

Brent Garcia 7:23

The seeds were starting to be planted for me to be done with being a smoker. And I used to be a real estate broker. And in the middle of February, when there is about half a foot of snow on the ground, and I was in the teens, I was waiting for a showing. And it was so cold and windy outside that I had to keep switching the gloved hand and smoking with the non-gloved hand. So, I keep switching and I literally said out loud, “This is stupid!” Literally. I was on the corner of Lincoln and Kenmore in Lincoln Park in Chicago, and I threw the cigarette down and on the ground — which, yeah, I know it’s littering but whatever — and I looked across the street and there was a sign in the office that said, “Acupuncture for Smoking Cessation.”

Candice Wu 7:50

You’re kidding!

Brent Garcia 7:50

I can’t make this up. I really can’t. And so, I walked across the street and I walked in and said, “I want that.”

Brent Garcia 7:56

And I got set up. It took me seven treatments. And that was over 10 years ago.

Candice Wu 8:00

Wow!

Brent Garcia 8:00

So that’s what put Acupuncture on my radar. How did I actually decide to study the medicine was, I was in a course. And I’ve heard this before. You know, I’m 46 years old. So like, over, maybe over 20 years ago, I think I first heard this concept from Tony Robbins. But I don’t even know if he made this up. But it’s the old rocking chair test, right?

Brent Garcia 8:13

You’re eighty years old, you’re on your porch, you’re in your rocking chair, you’re enjoying the evening, and you’re looking back on your life.

Brent Garcia 8:18

Are you doing what you would be proud of when you’re eight years old? And in September of 2009 that I heard that, and the clear as a bell answer was, “No”. And I needed something else.

Brent Garcia 8:26

So I went to an open house at the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine here in Chicago. I went to an open house for a massage. I was like, “Oh, I’ll just become a Massage Therapist.

Candice Wu 8:31

Ah, yeah.

Brent Garcia 8:31

I can sell real estate and I can be a Massage Therapist and kind of integrate that. That would be a way to slowly transition out of being a real estate broker. And it was a two-hour open house. We showed up. Sar O’Bannon ran it. She is a phenomenal Shiatsu practitioner here in Chicago-Land, we practiced, we talked about the massage school. And then, one of the admissions fellows came in and said, “You know, I know you’re here for a massage, but this is also an Acupuncture school. So I’m going to give you five minutes of the Acupuncture part. And in that five minutes, I was like, ”That is what I want to do.”

Brent Garcia 8:49

And so I enrolled in January of 2010 and started studying.

Candice Wu 8:53

And you’ve practiced and studied the Japanese version. Is that right?

Brent Garcia 8:55

Yes, I started to integrate Japanese Acupuncture after graduation. I really like it.

Candice Wu 8:57

What makes it so interesting for you? Or what do you like about it?

Brent Garcia 8:59

For me, it’s a dance. It’s traditional TCM, Traditional Chinese Medicine as packaged. And as taught in many of the schools, is kind of a prescriptive thing, you come in with a headache, I try to figure out the pattern that caused you to have a headache. And then with that pattern, there’s a prescription that you do. Just insert the needles in those points, and go about your business.

Brent Garcia 9:12

Japanese Acupuncture does a lot more in my view with palpation and with a kind of real-time response from the patient. So, I will do some very, by the way, Japanese Acupuncture tends to be thinner needles and shallower insertion, I’m really generalizing here, but you get the idea.

Brent Garcia 9:22

And so I will try to, I will take the pulses on the forearms by the wrist, and decide which organ system needs to be boosted up or tonified. Do a couple of points while holding the needle and then recheck the pulses, and see if a change was made.

Brent Garcia 9:33

Also, I use a little bit of abdominal palpation with it. And oftentimes, on the table, I can get a change in the abdomen, just with one or two needles.

Brent Garcia 9:37

So, I get instant feedback on how the treatments going. And patients get instant feedback for themselves like, “Oh, wow, I do feel different. When you press that point in my abdomen, it was really painful, like an eight out of 10. Now it’s like a 4 out of 10.”

Candice Wu 9:53

Yeah.

Brent Garcia 9:53

So, I like that it’s a dance. It’s constantly re-checking in with the patient, and not using a prescription per se. It’s really just, “Where do I need to go now? What do I need to balance now?”

Candice Wu 9:57

I love that. And I find that your work is so gentle but powerful in that way that you’re describing. Because you’re doing that dance and because you’re listening and seeing and feeling with your patient.

Brent Garcia 10:01

That’s what I try to do.

Candice Wu 10:01

Yeah, where do you see the limits of your work in terms of — I don’t know if this is specifically for you or maybe for Acupuncture, in general. But I think that’s a question that people often ask is, “Where’s the threshold? What can Acupuncture support? And where is it that I go to my MD?”

Brent Garcia 14:33

Those are the many-layered answers like you’d mentioned, I try to hold the space for both the light and the dark, your words. And we could kind of change the words a little bit and say: I like to hold the space between a western and an eastern mind. I try to hold the space to see what can be done with Acupuncture.

Brent Garcia 14:50

And also, by the way, how’s your vitamin D intake or how is your magnesium intake or supplementing that way.

Brent Garcia 14:58

I’m all for imaging, like X-Rays, CAT scans, MRIs, because I think that the patients that I treat, need that. And I feel better about what I do when they have that.

Brent Garcia 15:11

So, I have told people point-blank, you need to go see your MD. If there’s something that’s not being affected or not being changed by the treatment, or if there’s a certain sign that or symptom that that comes into the office, and it’s like, we need you to go, see somebody about that.

Brent Garcia 15:30

Let me give you an example.

Brent Garcia 15:32

A woman that came in with kind of a blister on her middle finger knuckle on the back of her hand. And she was coming in for treatment to get, to be honest, I can’t remember what she came in. But it wasn’t for that. And she’s like, “You know, since I’m here, let me show you this.” And she showed it to me and a medical doctor who also practices Acupuncture. And both of us kind of were concerned. By the look of it, it didn’t look like it was just something that you would get. It almost looked like a spider bite.

Brent Garcia 16:08

And so both of us were like, “You don’t need treatment right now. You need to go to the emergency room and get that checked out.”

Candice Wu 16:13

Yeah.

Brent Garcia 16:13

She did. It was not anything particularly serious. But it could have been. And based on the conversation I had with the doctor after she had gone to the ER after the patient had gone to the emergency room. I was like, you know, that could have been, you know, a Fascial Necrosis, or some sort of literally, some sort of spider bite where venom continues to travel up the arm over a period of minutes. And it’s serious. So, did I answer your question?

Candice Wu 16:37

Yeah, I think so. I think you’re saying, which makes sense. It’s case by case.

Brent Garcia 16:42

Yes.

Candice Wu 16:42

And you have no problem about just saying, “Go to your MD” and also that it’s complimentary, and that maybe the best. Well, it’s quite nice when people are going to both. In that way, there’s this dance of everyone and what a person might need.

Brent Garcia 16:59

Absolutely. There, there are times when you need Western medicine, and there, in my opinion, are times when you need, for lack of a better term, Eastern medicine. And if you have a serious medical emergency, you need to see a Western doc. And if you aren’t sleeping well, you probably need to come to see a practitioner like myself, because we have better methods for sleep that are more gentle and more lasting, in my opinion, than just prescribing a drug for it. So it’s really finding what each modality does well. And then —

Candice Wu 17:35

Yeah.

Brent Garcia 17:35

Using that for the best safety of the patient.

Candice Wu 17:39

And that makes complete sense. I want to switch gears a little and you haven’t mentioned working with men, yet. And I know that that’s a big part of your soul. Can you talk more about that?

Brent Garcia 17:50

I think in general, our society is set up to not allow men to be vulnerable in pain, and not at their best. And it’s looked upon in our society as a weakness to admit that. You know, I’m speaking — by the way, Candice, I’m speaking 100% in general, but I think it lays the foundation for what I’m about, and what my beliefs are, and what my standard is. But our society isn’t set up to allow men to admit weakness. And I have suffered from that, personally. I think that’s why this touches my heart so much. I think this is why this goes so deep is because I have suffered from that myself.

Brent Garcia 18:29

I’ve tried to squash feelings and squash pain with drugs and alcohol. I’ve tried to isolate myself. I’ve, you know, I used to be, I used to eat a pint of ice cream a night for years. And the last thing I ever wanted to do was to ask for help and to admit to other people that I needed help, and that I wasn’t feeling good. And then I didn’t know how to get out of the rut I was in.

Brent Garcia 19:00

And where that really started to strike me was that I wouldn’t — So, when I finally got a little bit of willingness to ask for help, it would be from women. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But I want to be a resource for men to come to, to have safety, to have openness, to be able to be vulnerable in their whatever they’re dealing with. Because I think it’s a needed thing in our society. And I think that not only do men benefit that from that, but women benefit from having men be that way.

Candice Wu 19:34

Absolutely. Because of the balance of what men feel. They’re allowed to say, do, and experience. That doesn’t really benefit women at all, and, or other genders that I’m not naming but it’s for the benefit of everybody that, that openness and permission is there because it’s human.

Brent Garcia 19:52

Yes.

Candice Wu 19:53

So have you found a man to ask help from? If I’m getting you right? Okay. Yes.

Brent Garcia 19:58

Yeah.

Candice Wu 19:58

Who has been your mentor or someone that you’ve been able to receive that sort of support from?

Brent Garcia 20:06

Yeah, it’s a great question. And based on agreement, I have to keep their anonymity but I can tell you that I have a really good friend in New Mexico, a really good friend in Colorado, actually two, really good friends in Colorado. And also I am part of a men’s mastery call which we get on — there are six men across the nation that are — we get on a call twice a month, and share, hold each other accountable, keep the hold of the space for other people, for other men to share the yuck of what the yuckiness of what’s going on in their lives. So, I have been blessed in finding that, and it’s made an enormous difference in my life.

Candice Wu 20:54

And that’s huge.

Brent Garcia 20:56

Yeah.

Candice Wu 20:57

What do you feel is, or has been the challenge in being vulnerable or opening up or sharing what you’re feeling?

Brent Garcia 21:04

For me, it’s, I think it’s because of what I said in that, it is not socially accepted. And I have, like, I mentioned sometime earlier on this call, I am certainly not perfect, and nor do I claim to be. And so I still struggle with that unwillingness to show who I really am. Because I don’t want to be ridiculed. And I don’t want to be put down. And I don’t want to be shown as weak. So, it’s a very real struggle that’s there. The good news is I’m conscious of it. And I’m aware of it, and I am in conversations with other men about that. But yeah, it still is there for me.

Brent Garcia 21:45

The other thing I would add to this is on the flip side, the alternative is puffery or machismo, or, you know, striding, like physically, when physically walking is actually striding. And I don’t find that to be authentic either. So the unwillingness to be vulnerable, in my opinion, is inauthentic, as is the puffery. So like, all things, the middle way, the middle ground is where the action is, the middle ground is where the juices, and I do my best to get that message to men.

Candice Wu 22:17

And it sounds like part of the message is the middle ground of being in your emotions, being in your experience openly, and feeling strong because of it within it. Even if you’re in tears, even if you’re breaking down. I’m just getting that from you, from who you are. But it sounds like that’s also what you’re saying.

Brent Garcia 22:37

Yeah, in a very real way.

Candice Wu 22:39

So I’m curious with all the work that you do for the community and for your patience. I know that you do your own work, as you’ve said already, but I’m curious what really makes you feel alive for yourself. What restores you?

Brent Garcia 22:56

Two things come to mind as far as restoring me, which I guess in effect makes me feel alive.

Brent Garcia 23:01

I have really taken on being a good sleeper. It’s really, but it’s very profound. I’ve taken on being a good sleeper for the longest time I would, I was a night owl, you know, I drank a lot of alcohol, I did a lot of drugs, you know, it’s going back years now, like over 10 years now. But, I used to stay up till three, stay up till four, and then go to work night after night after night. And there was, of course, the effects of drugs and alcohol that made me less than optimal. But, my sleep quality was just in the toilet.

Brent Garcia 23:38

So ever since I started focusing more on my sleep, which is really as simple as getting into bed, trying it now again, there’s no, I’m not perfect, but like trying to get to bed by 11 o’clock at the latest and at least lying down and reading and then waking up in a natural hour to the best of my ability, that has helped restore me so that when I’m walking through life, when I’m at my practice, when I’m at the gym, when I’m talking with people, when I’m being part of the community, I’m alive.

Brent Garcia 24:13

The other thing has happened relatively recently is, I kind of really jumped into strength training about four years ago. And, you know, I was a soccer player in college. And, you know, as I said, I’m 46. So when I played soccer in college, it was the early to mid–90s. And back then, we were actually actively told not to strength train, because you would “become unflexible”, which, now, if you look at any professional soccer player, they absolutely strength train, every single one of them.

Brent Garcia 24:45

But, I looked down upon strength train, I just thought they’re a bunch of meatheads. And then, I started working in a gym. Treating people, you know, I would do massage at first and then when I became Acupuncturist, I would also treat them with Acupuncture. But I also started doing a little bit of personal training and started to teach some classes, some strength training classes, and I started training myself and I’m talking like, you know, barbell dumbbell training. And that is, I didn’t realize how many benefits I would get from strength training. Just physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, it was just amazing.

Brent Garcia 25:23

Let me tell you a quick story.

Candice Wu 25:24

Please.

Brent Garcia 25:25

This was going when I first started training, I was probably about four years ago. I was in a strength training class, and I was really, really, really angry and hurt before the class. To be honest, I can’t remember why. But I was just out of sorts. And I had the thought, I’ll just go to the gym and just be in my own little world in this class of like 10 other guys. I’ll just, you know, focus, this will be perfect, I’ll just stay in my anger. And I’ll just ignore everyone else.

Brent Garcia 25:56

And when I did that, I almost got run over by a Prowler and I almost dropped the weight on my head, because someone was walking by and I wasn’t paying attention.

Candice Wu 26:05

Oh, my goodness!

Brent Garcia 26:07

And I got really clear that: “Hey, Brent, when you strength train, you have to be present. You can’t be thinking about patients, you can’t be thinking about your dog or your cat or the crappy thing that happened on the way to the gym, or the thing you have to do when you leave the gym, you have to be present at the gym with every single rep. Otherwise, you could get really hurt.”

Brent Garcia 26:36

And it’s awesome. That’s awesome. That was something I didn’t expect strength training was going to provide. It’s amazing.

Candice Wu 26:43

That’s a really powerful story.

Brent Garcia 26:45

My Achilles tendon was very happy. At the last second, jumped out of the way because there was a little sled foot that was going right at my Achilles tendon.

Candice Wu 26:51

Oh, my goodness.

Brent Garcia 26:52

Yeah.

Candice Wu 26:54

The literally hard lessons.

Brent Garcia 26:58

So strength training restores me.

Candice Wu 27:00

So I’m curious, what has been most on your mind or your heart lately?

Brent Garcia 27:06

I am at the age where, when I double my age, that doubles to 92.

Brent Garcia 27:11

So lately, I’ve become very aware of the fact that at least according to our current actuarial tables, right? At least according to statistics, I am well over, not well over, but I am over halfway in my life, provided nothing happens, right?

Brent Garcia 27:30

If I die a natural, actuarial table life, I’m over halfway. And what I’ve been aware of is, I haven’t been really producing what I know I’m capable of, as far as material things, I guess you’d say.

Brent Garcia 27:45

You know, I had mentioned earlier that, you know, I still struggle with a friend and a mentor who called it toxic comparison. You know, not just comparing myself to someone, but every time I compare myself to someone I come up short, and it’s like a toxic ooze that just kind of takes over my thinking.

Candice Wu 28:02

Yeah, I know that one.

Brent Garcia 28:02

So I have become aware that as much as I’ve try to be present, as much as I try to be the best version of myself, as much as I try to exude everything that I am to the best of my ability, it oftentimes, in my brain, I still come up short, and have been for a long period of time. Especially when I get into that toxic comparison with my peers.

Candice Wu 28:28

Yeah, that can be the hardest, at times like to see who’s around you. And to make that comparison, when our journeys are completely different.

Brent Garcia 28:37

Completely. And I, you know, when I’m aware of that fact, I realized that I had free will. And I had a choice, but like, this is my path. I’m walking my path, and it looks this way because it’s mine. And your path looks your way because it’s yours. And, everyone else’s path looks their ways, because it’s theirs, you know?

Candice Wu 29:00

Absolutely. I mean, I get the same way. It’s like looking at what people have done, and what maybe they receive. I can start to feel like I should be doing that. Or, why aren’t I? And then, if I actually go back into myself, there’s a way that I tell myself, keep your head down in a good way, for me. Don’t do that looking out. Because it’s always taking me the wrong direction. And when I go back inward —

Brent Garcia 29:24

Yeah. So when you say: “Keep your head down”, you mean go back inward?

Candice Wu 29:28

I do. I mean, take my eyes off of what’s out there, around me and turn it inward, into my heart, into my soul and work with the feeling that comes up. It usually for me, it’s like, “I’m not enough, I don’t have enough or I am not enough,” then just checking in with what I need to do with that. What do I need for that? And then what do I need to do for me and in my soul? Like, what is my soul telling me? The next step is in my life or what to do? Because it’s probably not, “Go make that program just like that person did and go for it!” Because it’s just never that.

Brent Garcia 30:01

It’s not. I totally identify with everything you said, and I’ve experienced that. You know, just to kind of extend with that. For me, what helps is, sometimes, if, like, I have to use your words, like put my head down, I have to go inward, and I have to check out with what’s really going on. But what’s been so valuable in having that be the seed of something greater, in something authentic for me and most importantly, like growth, is I have to bring it to other people and check in with them and like, “Yo, this is what’s going on. This is where I’m at.”

Brent Garcia 30:39

And that is, going back to what I said earlier that, that is what I never did. When I was younger all the way to maybe even like my late 20s, early 30s is, I thought I had to do it all myself. I thought I had to do it all alone. I had to figure it out. And if I didn’t figure it out, that meant I wasn’t enough. So when I get caught in that, it’s so valuable to go in. And I think it’s a vital step to go inward and to feel that and to check that out and to get it. And, I then have to bring it to other people. Bring it to people who have the capacity and the willingness, most importantly, to listen and provide feedback and provide response and guide and whatever.

Brent Garcia 31:23

Have you found that?

Candice Wu 31:24

Absolutely. I think that I’ve been in my life, somebody that has had strong friendship connections. I’m so grateful for that across my life. And so I’m used to, you know, maybe it’s also a genderized thing, right? But, I am quite used to being able to reach out to my friends.

Candice Wu 31:44

What you’re speaking to, that was a challenge for me, was to reach out to my colleagues, is to be vulnerable enough to share with my colleagues that this is going on or that I’m insecure or anxious about whatever it is, versus my friends because it’s great. I know my friends are in my corner. And I can do that. And they were supportive, and we go deeper with each other. But to do it with my colleagues felt much scarier. It was like, I’m actually going to expose parts of me that I didn’t want to. I don’t want anyone to see. And yet I’m sure they can all see it. Especially because most of my colleagues are therapists. How was I going to hide that? Come on.

Brent Garcia 32:24

You’re the last to know. Everyone around is like, “Yeah.”

Candice Wu 32:28

Obviously.

Brent Garcia 32:30

I’m glad you finally admitted that to yourself. That’s really good for you.

Candice Wu 32:33

I know. So yeah, it’s so hard for us to be vulnerable. And I guess, I can’t speak for everybody, but it has been for me. And yeah, I completely resonate with that reaching out, being important, and being able to receive than what’s there and debunking the idea that something’s going to happen that’s scary. Because every time I did that, it was, I guess, it’s probably a 99% of the time, it was met up with compassion or support, and help. And I grew from it. So the bad and scary things didn’t happen.

Brent Garcia 33:13

Yes. And this is a perfect time to bring it up, in my opinion, because this goes back to an earlier question about like, how did I get here? Like, how did I become an Acupuncturist? Yes, but how did I also get here?

Brent Garcia 33:25

For seven years, I was part of a process group. We met weekly for two and a half hours, and there were anywhere, you know, there was some fluctuation. So there was it was anywhere from like, three other people to maybe four or five or six other people. And it was moderated by a really awesome mentor of mine in a very real way. And we got an opportunity to check-in, which is, you know, where it kind of equals group therapy, except all the other participants when we were done checking in, all the other participants got an opportunity to respond.

Brent Garcia 34:04

And I remember when I went to a therapist, this therapist and I went to her for like, three sessions. And each time, she had said, “I really think that you should join the group.”

Brent Garcia 34:13

And, when she first described the group I was terrified of they get to respond to the filth that I’m thinking about myself or the bad things that I’m thinking about, they get to respond.

Brent Garcia 34:28

And, I have to tell you, seven, you know, it was 10 years ago, 7 years in that group and then I’ve seen the therapist off and on for the last three year. That work has been so powerful, because from the moment you walk in for the very first time, you are being vulnerable, just by being there, and then to have others respond, and to have that space for me to bring whatever is going on in the moment. You know, that was the beauty of, is that, in the moment, there were things that would come up, anger or shame or fear, or well, it’s always shame, but like anger, fear, or joy, or whatever. And there was an opportunity to share that and to have a response from the other participants, and from the facilitator made a huge difference in my life.

Brent Garcia 35:20

I am unrecognizable from 10 years ago, because of many things. And that’s one big thing.

Candice Wu 35:26

That’s incredible. What kind of feedback did you get or response did you get that has stuck with you?

Brent Garcia 35:33

I’ll answer that. Before I answer that in that group. And that process work, there is a distinction between response and feedback and advice, feedback and advice are like, this is what you know, I heard what you’re saying you should do this, the response was often what I was experiencing.

Brent Garcia 35:47

So, if we were in the group together, you would check in about whatever you want to check in about. And then my response would be what my process was what’s going on for me, of course, it’s going to have some overlap, and it’s going to touch on what you said. But the value was the response of what I’m feeling in the moment. And what I’m experiencing at the moment.

Candice Wu 36:14

It’s such a shift of gears, right? To be able to say, I feel this when you say, when you’re talking about this, I’m feeling -. And, we’re so used to doing something different.

Brent Garcia 36:25

Yep.

Candice Wu 36:26

Skipping ahead or not talking about our own reaction.

Brent Garcia 36:29

Yup, exactly. Talking about the other person not talking about what’s going on with me, we’re not set up to do that.

Candice Wu 36:36

And that’s like the primary thing of relating.

Brent Garcia 36:39

I need to pause for a second to just really get the impact of what you just said, Yes. That is foundational to relating to people.

Candice Wu 36:47

And I’m saying that precisely, even for myself, because I always have to remind myself to go back to how am I feeling, when someone’s saying that and not focusing it completely on them, in a way that’s almost icky, I guess. I don’t have the words to describe it. But even with my clients, to know what I’m feeling, whether or not to express it but to stay with that and relate to what they’re saying instead of something else.

Brent Garcia 40:16

Exactly. And to wrap into the other question, like what kind of response stuck with me? I mean, you know, as you can imagine, weekly for seven years, I got a lot of response. And I had a lot of response. But I think one of the main things was the concept and the disease pattern around shame and how pervasive that is. And how untalked about it is in general society, although it is being talked about more, I would say in the last five or six years.

Brent Garcia 40:53

I’ve heard a lot of TED Talks and etc, of dealing with and addressing shame as one of the foundational, maybe even the foundational piece that we deal with as human beings, and the hiding of that shame.

Candice Wu 41:10

Shame over shame.

Brent Garcia 41:11

That’s another common thread, is I would so often say, you know, “I’m experiencing a massive shame hit right now. And, I’m feeling a lot of shame that I feel ashamed. The only phrase that comes to mind is double whammy, like a double whammy. Did you get hit twice? It’s like a one-two punch.

Candice Wu 41:33

Well, and to be able to break through that, to speak to it, sounds like it took a lot of courage. And at least I know, for me, it can take a lot.

Brent Garcia 41:43

It does. And my willingness to be courageous in that arena and others is my capacity to do that is way higher now. Because of this work, and you know, tons of other things that I’ve done, my searching path has led me down many different roads, it’s been really awesome.

Candice Wu 42:03

I’m so glad.

Candice Wu 42:04

I feel this whole world just opened up in me when you were talking about shame as a disease pattern. And I started thinking about in Somatic Experiencing how the physiology of shame is spoken about. And it’s the same physiology like the way the body is experienced what’s happening in the body as defeat, head down. I didn’t, I couldn’t do it.

Candice Wu 42:30

And most of the time, instinctually, the “I couldn’t do it” is about something, a time when they may have needed to protect themselves, or speak to something. And we may not know when that time was at this point, because it lives in us and accumulates.

Candice Wu 42:51

And in my work, it accumulates over the ancestry as well. So it can just be like, maybe quadruple whammy times 10. I don’t know. But what I got excited about Brent was the disease pattern of shame and in your specific modalities, how you see that in the body. And what you notice happens or what meridians are shutting down? That’s my words. I don’t know if you would use that. But what do you see there?

Brent Garcia 43:26

I think it’s more of an intuitive process in that when it’s happening on the table, I think that’s one of my gifts.

Brent Garcia 43:34

My gift is the ability to be with someone else’s shame and to not judge it. And it doesn’t live like, “Oh, that’s the — you know that is showing up in the kidney meridian.”

Brent Garcia 43:48

For me, it’s the whole person at that moment, is experiencing it. And through the grace that I received from whatever path I walked down to get to this moment, and the work that I have done around shame and the mentors and guides that I’ve had around that sort of work, that separates me.

Brent Garcia 44:15

I think it’s my ability to be with their shame, that allows them to feel comfortable and safe, and to do whatever healing process they need to do. And it doesn’t, you know, in my experience that doesn’t live as, I don’t particularly look at it like as a meridian problem or something in the channels that need to be shunned or tonified or dredged or moved, or whatever. It’s really just holding the space for them to be exactly who they are to. For them to be the light and the dark. And for me to be able to continue to do the work that allows them to heal themselves.

Candice Wu 45:02

So you and I do the exact same thing, but you just have needles.

Brent Garcia 45:07

Yup.

Candice Wu 45:07

Because I almost felt like when you said, “I don’t look at it like the kidney meridian.” I almost felt like thank goodness, thank you. Because I feel that when I work with you, when I’m receiving Acupuncture from you, and working with that with you, wow.

Brent Garcia 45:25

Yeah.

Candice Wu 45:25

So I want to change, shift gears again.

Brent Garcia 45:29

Sure.

Candice Wu 45:29

And go for a little lightning round, a little fun here. I’m just going to ask a couple of questions. And whatever comes to mind or heart, feel free to share what’s right for you.

Brent Garcia 45:41

Will do. And I do need to say that this whole thing has been fun. So this is just fun. Fun, it’s, yeah, got it. Okay, I’m ready.

Candice Wu 45:53

I’ve had so much fun already. And I’ve also felt very humbled by everything you’ve shared about yourself and the work you do and how you see life. So thank you.

Brent Garcia 46:05

You’re welcome. Thanks for creating the space. You’re welcome.

Candice Wu 46:10

Okay, here we go. What is the strangest dream you’ve ever had?

Brent Garcia 46:15

I was crawling out of a cave that had that moss all over. It was sunlight. So it was like, it wasn’t a pure cave. And there were spiders, these white spiders everywhere. And I had absolutely no fear. It was more just like a kind of spirit.

Candice Wu 46:38

Oh, wow. And just as an extension, if you could ask your dream or if you were to ask your dream, a question. What would you ask your dream now?

Brent Garcia 46:49

What am I missing that would allow me to accept who and where and what I am right now?

Candice Wu 46:57

That’s deep. Yeah.

Brent Garcia 47:00

I don’t know. I don’t know how to go any.

Candice Wu 47:05

You know, I love that stuff. That’s like where my whole body is like excited right now.

Brent Garcia 47:13

I just, for some reason, like Bill Murray just came to mind. I don’t even know like why that’s there, but that’s a little insight into my brain is Bill Murray.

Brent Garcia 47:24

Yeah.

Candice Wu 47:24

Yeah.

Candice Wu 47:27

Well, and I am curious what your dream would say?

Brent Garcia 47:29

Yeah. Me too.

Candice Wu 47:30

Maybe that’s not the question for now. But for you. Yeah.

Brent Garcia 47:33

Yeah. I’ll have to get back to that, I to know.

Candice Wu 47:35

Yeah, please.

Candice Wu 47:37

What do you bring with you everywhere you go.

Brent Garcia 47:40

My guide tube. It’s the silver guide tube that I use sometimes with, for my needles. It’s, you know, oftentimes there are plastic guide tubes that come with a pack of needles in Japanese. You use a kind of like a, either silver or some other non-reactive metal as your guide tube. And I tend to carry that with me everywhere.

Candice Wu 48:05

Yes, I’ve seen that. It’s really nice.

Candice Wu 48:08

Okay, so you’re a good sleeper now. Most days it sounds, but if you didn’t have to sleep, what would you do with the extra time?

Brent Garcia 48:16

I’d read.

Candice Wu 48:18

What would you read?

Brent Garcia 48:19

I’d read two things. Well, it’s really two sets of things, which is really just an extension of what I read now. Three things.

Brent Garcia 48:27

The first thing is any sort of my East Asian medicine books and any new books that I have on order. I love reading books, and the ones that are at mind right now are the War of Art and Turning Pro by Steven Pressfield.

Candice Wu 48:47

Oh, yes.

Brent Garcia 48:48

Yeah. And books like that. You know, I love picking up Eckhart Tolle. In fact, I picked up New Earth the last couple of days, including this morning and just the wisdom.

Candice Wu 49:02

There’s so much —

Brent Garcia 49:03

How to live. Yeah, it’s —

Candice Wu 49:04

Yeah.

Brent Garcia 49:06

Every time I pick it up, it’s — I cannot believe. Like, I have the passage underlined. And I still have no recollection of ever reading it because it’s so present and so, what’s the word where it’s helpful right now? It’s so timely to wherever I’m at.

Candice Wu 49:29

It’s like it speaks over and over again.

Brent Garcia 49:33

Correct, right.

Candice Wu 49:34

You know, that’s a really great description of that, I have that exact experience. I think with that book, but also with other books that where you read it, and it’s like, “Oh, that’s fresh and exactly relevant now. Did I read that before? I thought I did.”

Brent Garcia 49:50

I must have because that’s my handwriting. But, I don’t remember.

Candice Wu 49:56

Right.

Brent Garcia 49:57

And then the third type of books I love, like R.A Salvatore fantasy novels and my wife just bought for my birthday, bought me three Ed McBain, like pulp fiction novels. They’re like 87th precinct and hard-boiled detectives, like I love that stuff, too. So like, Pulp Fiction.

Candice Wu 50:21

Oh, yeah. That’s great. Okay, here’s possibly the last question. What is a controversial opinion you have?

Brent Garcia 50:32

That there actually are stupid questions. Like, I personally do not believe there are no stupid questions. I do believe there are stupid questions.

Candice Wu 50:46

Tell me more. Because I feel that actually now that you’re saying.

Brent Garcia 50:51

It stems from a couple of things. One, it stems from, for a brief period of time I taught High School Chemistry. And my wife, who used to teach High School English for 10 years, and I have had this conversation where there will, you know, once you’re getting to High School, these kids are savvy, and they asked questions, just to mess with the class. And they ask questions just to waste time, sometimes not all the time. But like, there will be that, you know, the stereotypical class clown who will ask questions, and like, that’s a stupid question.

Candice Wu 51:28

Oh, I know that very well. I know that so well. Yes.

Brent Garcia 51:33

You’re not actually forwarding or actually authentically, inquiring into something. You’re just trying to mess with me. Which is cool. I respect that. But it’s a stupid question.

Candice Wu 51:45

When a question is actually a manipulation, or when it’s meant to do something else?

Brent Garcia 51:50

Yes. And you know, every class I’ve ever been in, every seminar I’ve ever taken, it’s all in on any sort of CEU credits. Okay. There are no stupid questions. You know, and they always throw in if you have this question. Someone else probably does, too. So, ask your dumb question.

Candice Wu 52:09

Great. If you want to manipulate the class, and they kind of wreck it, somebody else wants to too.

Brent Garcia 52:17

Join in!

Candice Wu 52:18

Which is probably true, you know, the energy in the room?

Brent Garcia 52:22

Yeah. I don’t know if that’s like, really, like, controversial or anything but opinion, but like, yeah, it’s a standout. I don’t know.

Candice Wu 52:31

I think it — Yeah. Controversial or not, it’s something people say, and I actually agree with you. I don’t believe that that’s true. That there are no stupid questions.

Brent Garcia 52:43

Yeah. You know, and in the words of Bill Hicks, I’ll say, you know, I don’t always choose wisely, but I’m committed.

Candice Wu 52:52

Thank you.

Candice Wu 52:53

Well, Brent, this is really fun. The whole thing as we talked about, is there anything else that is coming to you now, any last thoughts? Anything you’d like to share with everyone listening?

Brent Garcia 53:04

You, the listener are perfect, just the way you are. And there are people like Candice and myself, that do our best to create spaces that allow you to be that way?

Candice Wu 53:24

Yes, thank you.

Brent Garcia 53:26

You’re welcome. Thank you,

Candice Wu 53:30

Brent, where can everyone find you? And by the way, your Healing Crisis video is really fun to watch on your website.

Brent Garcia 53:37

You know, my website is the best way I try to keep that as like the portal, you know, the hub. So it’s BrentGarcia.com. And I say, because, you know, that’s my name, Brent Garcia. So, therefore, that’s my website, BrentGarcia.com. So there it is. That’s the easiest way. You can email me at Brent@BrentGarcia.com.

Brent Garcia 54:06

There you go.

Candice Wu 54:06

So easy.

Brent Garcia 54:08

I try to keep it simple.

Candice Wu 54:09

It is what it is here. Oh, well, thank you so much. I learned so much. I felt so much. I’ve had a lot of fun with you, as always. And I would love to have you on the show again. I just have 50 million questions. And we’ve already got about an hour or over. So thank you, Brent.

Brent Garcia 54:29

You’re welcome, Candice, thank you for your space and thank you for your creation. This is amazing stuff and your work is amazing. See you down the road.

Candice Wu 54:43

I want to thank Brent so much for joining me on the show. I learned so much from him and continue to as we are both on our journeys.

Candice Wu 54:51

Brent combines traditional and modern systems of East Asian medicine with bodywork and Trigger Point therapy, providing custom treatments to eliminate pain and cultivate well being in his patients. His private practices in Chicago at two locations. And you can find all that information as well as book a treatment on his website at www.BrentGarcia.com.

Candice Wu 55:13

Before you leave, I’d like to invite you to listen to more interviews, meditations, and explorations on CandiceWu.com/podcast. And you can also subscribe to my weekly newsletter and become a member of the Embodied Community at CandiceWu.com/embody where you can get lots of free resources on Embodiment, self-love, healing, meditations as well as information about my retreats, workshops, private sessions, and other offerings. Thank you so much for listening and see you next time on the Embody Podcast.