Spiritual Appropriation & Oral Histories with with Hiroki Keaveney — EP39

Candice Wu 0:00

In this episode, I have a special guest, Hiroki Keaveney, and we discussed the lineage and story of Reiki. How we can be sensitive and aware when it comes to spiritual appropriation of healing work, how being transgender guides their spiritual path, and the importance of the ancestors and oral histories in the healing process.

Candice Wu 0:22

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:35

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 0:55

Welcome back, everyone. It’s great to have you. Before we jump into the episode with Hiroki, I’d like to say a special shout out to all my clients that are out there. I want to thank you all because part of the work that we do together, the investment that you put in, also supports me and being able to do this work with the podcast, to be able to offer more interviews and healing experientials is all made possible by the income support that I get from working with people one on one, as well as people in relationships, whether that’s a couple or a polyamorous relationship. I really appreciate you so much, all of you out there and you give me inspiration for more podcasts as well. If you want to learn more about my one on one work or couples and relationship work with people, feel free to go to my website at Candicewu.com.

Candice Wu 1:50

And now let’s jump into the episode.

Candice Wu 1:55

Hiroki Keaveney is someone that I just felt charmed by right from the beginning. I’ve really enjoyed speaking with him and exploring ideas about how transgender identity, race-ethnicity, all come into play in healing work, and in this episode, you’ll get a taste of that.

Candice Wu 2:14

Hiroki is a fourth-generation Japanese-American and certified Reiki Master and their mixed-race background as East Asian and Irish, informs the work that they do.

Candice Wu 2:26

Hiroki is the founder of Dragonfly: Intergenerational Healing Services, which is based on community and familial love. Their work is inspired and rooted in a decade of community organizing and building with queer and trans people of color on the west coast.

Candice Wu 2:42

What I learned early on was that Hiroki believes that the healing work we do is influenced by our ancestors and has an intergenerational ripple effect on future generations. So you can see why they and I got along very quickly because we had a lot to talk about with healing through the ancestry. So without further ado, let’s jump into the episode.

Candice Wu 3:06

I’m so happy to have Hiroki Keaveney here today. Thank you so much for joining us, Hiroki.

Hiroki Keaveney 3:11

Thank you for having me.

Candice Wu 3:13

I’m excited for our conversation. I have no idea where it’s going to go today, but first, I would love to hear from you and give you the space to share who you are and what you do.

Hiroki Keaveney 3:26

Thank you. Yeah, I feel like every time I answer that question, it changes a little because I think who I am changes often. But I guess right now, I would say that my name’s Hiroki and that I’m genderqueer, and I’m Japanese, I’m Irish, I really care about history, and I really care about healing, and something I really hope I can do with my life is like, somehow combine both those passions, and the practice I offer is called Dragonfly: Intergenerational Healing Services, and within that practice, I try to combine both.

Hiroki Keaveney 4:06

Yeah, one of the things I like to do with clients, regardless of the healing modality is: How does you in the present and your healing process, impact past generations and future generations? And so that’s something that a lot of healers have done with me, and that I try to do with my clients, really try to get people to kind of like, reflect, not only on like, why do I have this like, relationship pattern that I’m not happy with? Like, well how does that connect to your grandparents like? Or, how does that connect to your community or your community’s trauma, like history with imperialism or whatever? Like, what does codependency look like?

Hiroki Keaveney 4:47

You know, what I mean, like, how these systems are part of larger systems of oppression, or their symptoms of larger things going on, and so that could be my background in Sociology too, was like, a lot about, like, just studying systems. But yeah, I hope that makes sense. So I like combining energy healing like Reiki, or like card readings, like Taro, or natal chart readings, meditation, whatever it is. I like supporting clients in those ways because they’ve really supported me and they’re what I’m familiar with.

Candice Wu 5:19

That’s lovely. It sounded like you support people in connecting with their histories. But also, you were saying to the future, into future generations, how do you work with that?

Hiroki Keaveney 5:32

I love having a long view of history, and that’s something I’ve learned from elders in different community spaces about like, the work we’re doing now will impact generations to come, and I think sometimes it can be really discouraging or feel really overwhelming, everything going on, like, politically right now. But the more I understand history, and like, where we’ve come from, it, like, contextualizes what’s going on, and so understanding that what we do in the present will impact future generations, whether it’s like, political engagement, or whether it’s your own, like, healing, which I think is like a form of political engagement, because I feel like everything’s interconnected. So like, the healing you do, will impact future generations, whether you decide to have children, whether you decide to be in community spaces, like, how your sort of legacy would impact.

Hiroki Keaveney 6:29

I’ll just speak from personal experience, sometimes it’s hard to leave the house, looking the way I do like being gender nonconforming, people staring at me all the time. I think like, knowing that 10 years from now, they, them, pronouns, and gender nonconformity stuff, hopefully, we’ll be more socially acceptable or less, like, people will be more familiar with the terms at least, like, I think about the trans movement, and how within the last five years, like, mainstream media knows the word transgender, which is like, huge.

Hiroki Keaveney 7:04

So I, you know, I think like, 50 years from now, hopefully, like, when I’m super old. I can sort of look back and like, see how things were and how things are. And like, be like, okay, like, even though I feel uncomfortable, like a lot of the times, like going out in public, and like, you know, I always have headphones in so I can’t hear like street harassment, or if it happens, like, you know, like, knowing that these actions I take now in the present, I’m hoping, me being myself will encourage other people to be themselves and have some sort of like, ripple effect.

Candice Wu 7:42

Absolutely. I’m getting this picture of you, being who you are, out in the world, no matter what is coming towards you, is trying your best to be yourself, and that does have an effect outwardly, and that’s your hope is that down the line, that really has a change effect.

Hiroki Keaveney 8:06

Yeah, I hope.

Candice Wu 8:11

Yeah.

Hiroki Keaveney 8:12

It’s not, I don’t do what I do, like this, because I was like, I want to change the world. That’s not even why I like, dress, the way I dress. I do what I do, because it makes me feel the most comfortable in my body. Yeah, so that’s why I do what I do. But if it has some sort of like, political impact, or like, social impact, I feel grateful, and I think learning about history, I said, my background is in Sociology, it’s also an ethnic study too. I think to learn about community organizing, and just social movements in general, among communities of color in the United States. I feel like, it helps me self-reflect more about my gender identity. Yeah, and like the long term impacts.

Candice Wu 8:58

Well, I was thinking about how your racial and ethnic background has been very important to you, in your life, and in who you are, in what you do with people, and how you’re fourth-generation Japanese-American, and you’re also Irish, would you like to share a little bit about how this influences you, and how you see that.

Hiroki Keaveney 9:24

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like so much of like, my coming out is like queer, and like, later, as trans, like that process was so much influenced by being a person of color.

Hiroki Keaveney 9:36

I grew up in the Midwest and Ohio, and a bit, sort of drive to like, leave the Midwest was actually not even queer stuff because I was still like, just grew up so religious. So, I just didn’t know a lot. I knew I was different, but I didn’t really have language for it. But I knew racially I was different, and so I really wanted to learn about anything Asian, like, specifically Asia, like not Asian American, but Asian, and so I was looking at programs outside of the Midwest, and I loved visiting the West Coast, I loved it.

Hiroki Keaveney 10:17

And so, there was a program in Seattle, I was doing Asian studies, and I took a class called the Asian American experience, and it was the first time I really, like, I had a professor who was also biracial, like Asian-American, and it was just like an opening of so many doors that I didn’t realize that I needed, or that would be healing.

Hiroki Keaveney 10:42

So that sort of like, drive towards, like, understanding racial and economic justice led me to organizing, which so many queer and trans people do. So it was coming out as queer and later as trans really was in these, like, racial justice communities, and then the mixed-race stuff came later, I feel like, I always knew I was mixed, and always talked about it, and I got lucky in Seattle, that a lot of Japanese-American organizing, most people were mixed-race since like, I never felt out of place.

Hiroki Keaveney 11:21

I think, as I kept doing community work, I started to feel out of place, the more I moved around, because it became less mixed-race, and it became more monoracial, and so I just started seeing how my experiences were different, and so I would say about, when I was 24, is when I started doing more mixed-race stuff, like trying to understand, what does it mean to be a multiracial person? And how does that connect to my healing? Like, what does that even mean? You know, feeling like you don’t fully fit in anywhere you go, and then it really wasn’t until the Trump collection that I started trying to do like a white ancestor healing work. So a lot of my 20s was about like, my Asian ancestors, and like, healing around being Asian-American in the US, and now in the present, I am trying to do both, like, healing both sides, and feels like, coming into my queerness and transness was through communities of color, and then the whole mixed-race stuff, and now white ancestral work. It came a little later.

Candice Wu 11:21

So when you were saying the Asian-American experience gave you an opening?

Hiroki Keaveney 12:38

Yeah.

Candice Wu 12:39

Yeah. What did you learn about that about yourself?

Hiroki Keaveney 12:43

Oh, my. Yeah, absolutely. I think like, the first time I really had to talk about being Asian-American, to my peers, was when I was in fourth grade, we were learning about World War Two, and I share that my family was part of the internment, and I remember the whole class, like, gasped and like everyone was staring at me, and like, I was just like, what’s going on? And I remember like, later, in middle school, we would watch these, like more, it was called the morning announcements or whatever, and it was like this history channel, and I think it was my social studies class, my history class, that day was specifically about the internment, and I was like, I wanted to watch it. But my whole class was so loud, everyone’s talking, no one’s watching it, and the teacher was like, if everyone keeps talking, we’re turning off the TV, and I was like, I remember being like, guy shut up. Like, I want to watch this, and of course, no one listened to me, and everyone keeps talking, and he turned off the TV, and I remember being like, damn it. Like, there was this piece of me that always wanted to learn about what does it mean to be Asian-American, but it just like, wasn’t going to happen in Ohio, or maybe it would have happened in Ohio, but maybe it would have been in the college setting.

Hiroki Keaveney 14:05

You know, it just, it wasn’t going to happen, in my school system, and so I think like taking that class that was specifically devoted to Asian-American experiences.

Hiroki Keaveney 14:18

So, Dr. Wong, she started with Chinese-American history, went into Japanese-American and then went into Filipino-American, and it was because of that class, that I started volunteering at the Filipino-American National Historical Society. It was like, we had to do community work as a requirement for this class, and FANHS that’s like the shortened version of the Filipino-American National Historical Society.

Hiroki Keaveney 14:47

Working at FANHS with Uncle Fred and Auntie Dorothy, I feel like, I still take the lessons that they taught me so much of what I believe in and how I even practice energy healing. I think about the Cordova, and the work they do, they did for uncle Fred, he passed away.

Hiroki Keaveney 15:06

Basically, they started this organization devoted to Filipino-American history like, archive, that was the first time I’ve been in archives, where people just document their history. For some time I was around oral histories, and they really encouraged me to learn about my heritage. Like, they feel like uncle Fred was the first person to be like, learn your Japanese-American history, learn your Asian-American history, like, I remember that was the first thing he ever told me was learn your Asian-American history, and I was like, Okay, and that led me to Japanese-American work. That’s why that class was so special is, not only like in the classroom, but out of the classroom, like that internship at FANHS and then like, even after the class was over, I would still go, try to go at least once a month to visit uncle and aunty, and just like, talk to them about their experiences, learn from them. That’s how it changed my life, it was mainly my relationship with Uncle Fred and Auntie Dorothy Cordova.

Candice Wu 16:07

Wow, that sounds really powerful. I’m curious, what’s one of the life lessons you still take with you?

Hiroki Keaveney 16:15

I don’t know, I feel like so much of that class was a blur, but in a good way. Something that really moves me it was something that Auntie Dorothy said once and why she preserved like, Filipina-American history, and she said, she and Uncle Fred, like, learned their stories, because she’s like, I wanted to have self-worth. And I think when your stories are never recorded, or when the TV’s turned off, because all your essentially white classmates aren’t interested in learning about you.

Hiroki Keaveney 16:47

I remember learning Asian-American history in that class, and like, finally, feeling like I had a place at the table. You know what I mean, and I think that was probably one of the most important life lessons was like, learn your heritage, understand how you fit into this larger fabric of society, and like for me, it just gave me this huge sense of self-worth and that I was an American because I think the internment one of the big like, woundings that happened was this belief that you’re not an American, and that’s really complicated too because like, you know, we are settlers, if you’re not Native American, you know, you’re like a settler, or you’re West African and forced to be here without your consent, and so I think, you know, even me saying like, I am an American, I think it’s really complicated, and I also never felt like an American growing up. So I think taking that Asian-American class was really transformative, because I was like, Oh, I am an American. I am part of American history.

Candice Wu 17:54

I’m just thinking about where to go from here because I’m interested in your family story. I’m not sure if you want to share it today or not?

Hiroki Keaveney 18:02

Yeah, I can share a little.

Candice Wu 18:03

Yeah, maybe just a bit of what you found is so restorative for your sense of worthiness?

Hiroki Keaveney 18:12

I think like, growing up hating being Asian or Japanese-American, like, really internalizing racism, like, looking in the mirror and being like, Whoa, like, I don’t like who I see, like, wishing, you know, I had blond hair, wishing I had blue eyes, like all the things are being taught to like my European features, but not me Asian ones. I think I kind of like went the pendulum opposite.

Hiroki Keaveney 18:41

When I was in college. I was like, Oh, my God, like, I can’t even think about my white side, I like, must think about why I need to love myself, and so I think by the time I was like, learning my family stories was after college, so I had moved to California to be near my grandparents, and honestly, was like a really disillusioning process, because I learned just how screwed up my family is, and it’s not because like, you’re Asian-American, it’s like, just my family story was so like that. And what do I say, it’s like, I feel like there were like toxic patterns in my family that were only amplified because of larger white supremacy.

Hiroki Keaveney 19:27

So it wasn’t like, we were like, perfect, and then the war came, it was like, we were messed up, and then the war came, and so I think restorative about my family was I think I had put my family on this pedestal, and my community on this pedestal and being like, Oh my god, we’re so resilient. You know, we are, like, we fucking are but we’re not perfect.

Hiroki Keaveney 19:35

And I, you know, I know, we’ve talked in the past about like, the importance of not putting, you know, groups or people or even an individual like a mentor figure, spiritual leader, the dangers of putting people or communities on pedestals that having all the answers, and so I think what was restorative about learning my family history, was like, I learned the good, the bad, and the ugly, and the beautiful, and I think once I could sort of like see the complexity of my family legacy.

Hiroki Keaveney 20:31

It helped me understand me and my complexities, and so, I think like, even though I first it was a disillusioning process, it also was restorative because I feel like that’s a reality for most people is like, you probably, there’s a reason why a lot of families have secrets, like, they’re not great, and so like, once you learn the secrets, and once you learn why the silences are there, then the healing can happen. Because I feel like it’s more painful to not know, and then once you know, even if it’s painful, you can finally work through it, because it has a name.

Candice Wu 21:14

What I’m grappling with is the spiritual experience versus the human experience, and not that they’re different, and not that they’re not connected, or one, but seeing it from multiple levels, seeing the experience from multiple levels. So my own experience of being Chinese-American, and I experienced a lot of being silent when I was younger and I internalize that as just me, that I was shy, and that I didn’t have anything to say, and I felt I was stupid. I didn’t really have anything to contribute. I had no idea that a large deal of my experience probably related to me being Chinese American, in an area that was almost all white, and as I started to learn more about that, I also learned in my ancestry why there was so much silence.

Hiroki Keaveney 22:13

Yeah.

Candice Wu 22:14

Just to touch in on it, just looking at Chinese culture with like, Tiananmen Square, when people spoke up for something they believed in they got killed, and women got their own silencing and agreed to their own silencing of different ways that also included the body like being, having their feet wrapped and being smaller, and so I lived this experience. But then I also felt like the same themes that I was experiencing so painfully, and that avenue, related to themes of my soul, just being small, the experience of being small or being unworthy, and feeling like I just deserve to be silent, or that I deserve to not exist at all, and I was working through some past life experiences of, and I don’t really know that these are the truth. But there’s a resonance that feels like, at some point, I was a healer, and go figure right? And it was very more like witchcraft and taboo, and I feel like I was also a shaman, and I feel like, I was a variety of different healers that, in that time wasn’t so respected, and if I was myself with all of that, then violence would be there.

Hiroki Keaveney 23:38

Yeah.

Candice Wu 23:39

That’s just my feeling and the reason I’m speaking to it is that it helped me clear out some of that, so that it’s not imprinted in my daily experience now and in who I am and what I choose to do now, and I’m curious for you, if you’ve had that sort of experience where or how you’ve thought about your spiritual self, or the spiritual perspective with all of who you’ve learned you are in your oral history, and in your ethnic history.

Hiroki Keaveney 24:11

Yeah, you know, I’ve only done one past life thing. It was like a past life regression therapy session. So it was funny, because, I couldn’t see anything yet, I felt things.

Candice Wu 24:27

Yeah.

Hiroki Keaveney 24:27

It felt like, one of my friends who did it, they could see everything, and they even felt their own death, and all these things, and for me, while I didn’t see a life, I saw kind of look a movie picture, if that makes sense. It was like, I saw all these different things I have experienced in my present life like when you have that Deja Vu feeling when you’re somewhere and you’re like, oh, like, this is really familiar, and it’s like, I wonder how we connected to this. It was interesting, like, my past life lesson actually was to focus on the present and to know that I’m loved. Those are my two lessons.

Candice Wu 25:12

Yeah, and I don’t necessarily mean like, what about past life for you, but just how do you look from your spiritual perspective? What people and you experience in your, like, rich ethnic heritage? And what, I don’t know, maybe it’s too vague of a question.

Hiroki Keaveney 25:36

No, it’s not. I was just thinking.

Candice Wu 25:40

Yeah.

Hiroki Keaveney 25:42

I think like, whenever I do work with like, people who are shamans or people who are energy workers, healers, all of that, when they talk to spirits were like, watch over me. There’s kind of like a common theme. It’s like, that might have like, third eye stuff going on, and that like, I’m super like, connected to ancestors and that they are present, and then the other thing that people say is like, weird throat stuff, like I can’t speak, which is funny, because like, we’re both talking about silences on a podcast, but right, that’s my own stuff that I’m working on is like being able to name things.

Hiroki Keaveney 26:26

And then the other thing they tell me is that my root is really like my sense of home and community wall, like, I do have like, strong community roots and senses of like, inner connectedness, like my sense of home is always kind of influx, and I think it has a lot to do with how much I’ve moved.

Hiroki Keaveney 26:48

So I think spiritually, how that all relates is like, how does that all really, I feel like ancestor work for me, spirit stuff is always my relationship with different ancestors, that’s like, my spirituality, and how I connect with them whether it’s through like, reading a book, or like a conversation, or learning a family story from a relative, it like feeds a part of me, that’s not physical, if that makes sense, and I feel like, for me, that’s spiritual.

Hiroki Keaveney 27:24

I think when I was a kid growing up very, like religious. Sometimes I would sit in the church, like after the church service was over, and everyone went to get donuts, because that’s all churches, right? So I’m like sitting in the church alone, because everyone’s like getting donuts and coffee, and I remember just feeling at peace because it wasn’t about the service. Because the service was the same every Sunday. Well, the sermon was different. But it was about feeling connected to love, feeling connected to unconditional love. And as I got older and came out twice, I had to reimagine what that would look like, because many religious institutions aren’t supportive of queer trans people, and that ended up looking like my relationship with my ancestors, and that feels good. It feels good to like, feel unconditional love, and that was what my past life regression session was about; that I am loved, and that I’m lovable, and so, now I do feel loved. I do, and I hope to sort of carry that with me wherever I end up.

Candice Wu 28:44

It’s beautiful.

Hiroki Keaveney 28:45

Yeah, thanks for listening and for asking. Yeah.

Candice Wu 28:50

Absolutely.

Candice Wu 28:52

So one of the topics that you and I have been interested in is cultural appropriation and the appropriation of healing modalities that I take part in, and that the world does, right. Would you share your definition of cultural appropriation and specifically in healing work?

Hiroki Keaveney 29:21

Sure, I guess my personal definition would be like, an unwillingness to learn, like an unwillingness to learn from the communities who’ve created these practices. Yeah, I feel like that’s the core of cultural appropriation is this, like, I’m gonna take something and not going to take the time to get to know you.

Hiroki Keaveney 29:49

I feel like, that’s cultural appropriation for me anyway.

Candice Wu 29:54

For me, also to add to that, just like, taking a practice, and taking it out of its context, as well, like the room, maybe where, and why it’s important, and making it important for different reasons.

Hiroki Keaveney 30:08

Yeah, I like that.

Hiroki Keaveney 30:10

Yeah, it’s so hard to talk about, because there are so many types of appropriation, of cultural appropriation. So, I wanted to say it in a really simple way, because it’s so huge that taking and like you said, taking out of context too, without a willingness to learn. I feel like it’s appropriation. It’s like a form of disrespect, and I think it’s a form of spiritual disrespect too.

Hiroki Keaveney 30:38

Someone was talking about, you know, going to a museum in Britain. I think that museum is, I forget the name, but basically, it houses all these different spiritual artifacts that were taken from communities, that Britain colonized from countries. You know, and this person was talking about how emotional experience that was, when they left, just how it felt and how they cried, and because a lot of the artifacts were taken, because they were valuable to the cultures, and so usually they held spirits. These were objects used in ceremonies and rituals. So they have the spiritual energy to them as well. Yeah, it was like you took a spirit.

Hiroki Keaveney 31:37

So I think, when that person, you know, when they shared that story with me it, for some reason that I’m just thinking about it right now, and we’re talking about spiritual appropriation, like, it’s that, like, I’m going to take this from you, without any thought of how it’s going to impact you, and how, I’m not going to learn about you either. This is for me.

Candice Wu 32:01

That feels so painful.

Hiroki Keaveney 32:02

Yeah.

Candice Wu 32:03

It feels painful and at the same time, I feel removed from, I’m not sure the experiences that I feel removed from the immediacy of that taking.

Hiroki Keaveney 32:17

Yeah.

Candice Wu 32:17

That I don’t even know then what I’m taking, and sometimes I have the feeling like, if I see spiritual objects, or what I’m perceiving as someone using certain spiritual objects, like a drum, let’s say, I actually feel a bit cautious. Like, I don’t really know what I should be doing with that, and, or is it even my place?

Hiroki Keaveney 32:44

Yeah.

Candice Wu 32:45

So, I just kind of wait and observe and see, or try to learn from somebody if I’m that curious. But what’s your experience with that? And I think a lot of people have those that worry, that sort of overwhelm that there’s such a richness to everything, but how do we even take it all in? And how do we even know if we’re being disrespectful?

Hiroki Keaveney 33:11

Yeah, caution is like always, that’s a great word to you. Cautiously, observing, I love that.

Hiroki Keaveney 33:22

Absolutely. Because I think, we’re trying to heal parts of ourselves that were longing for healing. But how do you even go about doing that when we live with basically these histories of colonialism and slavery and genocide in this world, you know? And I’m just talking about the United States, like, I’m not even talking about globally, the things that have happened, I think it’s for me, it’s a case by case. I get to know this healer, I build trust and relationship, and I see how they practice, and if that lands okay, and then I also try to, like, educate myself, and I’m like, I practice Reiki, but I feel like I’m still trying to grapple with Reiki history and learn it and understand it, and like, what does it mean to be a fourth-generation, mixed-race, Japanese-American practicing the spiritual practice, from my people? And what does that even mean? And what does that look like? And the ways Reiki has been appropriated in so many ways that to the point that when I talked to people from Japan who grew up there, they’re like, Oh, I thought that was a Western thing, you know? So even mean that I practice this practice that even Japanese people are like, wait, what, that’s a Japanese thing?

Candice Wu 34:42

Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about the story of that, just so people listening can understand from where you’re speaking about this? Because I think that’s fascinating, what you’re saying that Japanese people aren’t necessarily always aware that Reiki comes from Japan.

Hiroki Keaveney 35:01

Yeah, that made me really upset when I kept like, running into that. I was like, wait, what? Or like talking to Japanese Americans? Were like, Oh, that’s a white people saying like, what? Like? Oh no. So it was like the Japanese Americans, Japanese, like, I was just like, damn it, like, you know, you finally think you’ve learned a healing tradition of your people, and then your people are like, that’s not even ours. They’re like, What? It’s a mess, and why it’s a mess, largely has to do with the internment, and US occupation in Japan after the war.

Hiroki Keaveney 35:37

So basically, in like, I want to say the mid–1800s. I need to like, say this is me like, not knowing facts fully. But basically, in the mid to late 1800s, there was a Reiki revival among some spiritual communities in Japan, and basically, Reiki, like any forms of energy healing, like, I feel like all cultures have some type of like, Reiki, like some type of energy healing practice.

Hiroki Keaveney 36:05

We even talked before, like Jesus even laid hands on people to heal. So I think Reiki is just specifically a Japanese type of energy healing that many cultures practice in their own specific ways, and so basically, there was a revival of it, in a way that, like, in Japan, the symbols that you learn in Western Reiki aren’t as important, and there was this belief that like, we all have Reiki in us. That’s what happened with this one person, he was like, I see, I need to do my fact checks, like, I need to learn his name. But basically, there was someone named Usui who like, he learned about these practices from this, like, he heard about this person, and then he went even further and tried to adapted t to Western cultures.

Hiroki Keaveney 36:52

So in the 1920s, he came to Hawaii, he came to the United States and basically shared these two practices, shared Reiki. But in the 1920s, and, you know, the early 1900s, there were tensions between the US and Japan that just blew up, this may be the wrong word, that’s probably really insensitive. It just like, it went everywhere during the war.

Hiroki Keaveney 37:20

So during the war, back to Japan, and he basically was forced to use Reiki in the Imperial Army to like, heal soldiers, and so Reiki started being used for war, basically.

Hiroki Keaveney 37:36

So that’s like a weird thing to wrap my head around when it was like very disillusioning. Because I like, hate imperialism, and I like, hate the Japanese Empire, and I was just like, Whoa, like using it on soldiers who are like, just how the comfort women and just like, I was like “nooo”, —

Candice Wu 37:55

Wait, they used it on soldiers for what purpose?

Hiroki Keaveney 38:00

To heal them, so they could keep fighting.

Candice Wu 38:02

Like injuries or spiritually or…

Hiroki Keaveney 38:07

Both, probably, because Reiki was believed it could help heal, like, physical injuries, like quicker, and obviously, you would like, care for a physical way too. But Reiki helps the process.

Hiroki Keaveney 38:20

Some people use it nowadays to like, help people who have cancer, obviously, you would still go in for physical treatments, but you would also have the spiritual element that’s supposed to help the physical healing process.

Hiroki Keaveney 38:33

And so Reiki became associated with war, and so by the time World War Two ended, everything Japanese-related in the United States is very taboo. So Reiki went away pretty quickly in the US, and in Japan, because it was associated with the war during US occupation, it was outlawed, it was just banned.

Candice Wu 38:55

It’s so interesting how parts get forgotten and the focus goes like, to me, it feels like, it almost was forgotten, that it was this daily healing practice or innate practice, and it became part of the war because there’s so much focus on the war, I would imagine.

Hiroki Keaveney 39:13

Yeah.

Candice Wu 39:14

Then it became so paired up, and now it’s being banned.

Hiroki Keaveney 39:19

Because it’s powerful, and I think, I mean, it just shows you how any sort of spiritual practice can be used in any form. It’s like it could be used for good, it could be used for evil. So that was disillusioning too, because like for me, I do not respect like, imperialism in any form, whether it’s people of color or white people just like, don’t fucking colonized people like what, like for me, when I was learning about Reiki being used for the Japanese Empire for the war, I was like, whoa.

Candice Wu 39:57

I remember you saying before to me that, when you, specifically have looked at your history, and your ancestry, and your culture, that there are things that are really positive and strengthening for you, but also that you grapple with, and that’s part of the process for you, and so that, it’s just a really nice example of how you’ve grappled with Reiki as a practice that you use, as well as the history of it in Japanese culture.

Hiroki Keaveney 40:27

It’s strange being part of a heritage that brutalized, like, different people throughout Asia and the Pacific Islands. So there’s that but then also to be a part of a culture that was silenced and imprisoned in the United States. Yeah, it’s something I really grapple with, honestly, and it’s weird because my Irish side, my family’s actually more recently immigrated from Ireland, than from Japan, which is also, you know, unusual for people who are half-white half-Asians, their white family’s been here for many generations and the Asian side is like more recent.

Hiroki Keaveney 41:05

So on that side, I grapple with British imperialism in Ireland, and then how colonialism impacted my Irish heritage, Irish side, and then how Irish people in the US, at first, were treated pretty terribly and weren’t always seated, how do I say, how the Irish became white eventually, and benefit from white supremacy, and just the level of like, anti-black racism and like, you know, the Irish, like, lead anti-Chinese movements, like, it’s weird, having two different cultures, either colonized or colonizer outside of the US, and then when they come to the US how varying levels of privilege and oppression play out based on racial hierarchies and the United States.

Hiroki Keaveney 42:01

I know like, when I told the story of Reiki, it gets all over the place. So I’ll just quickly, sum up… but basically the war, it outlawed Reiki to the point that people don’t even consider it, Japanese. So it wasn’t until the 70s, 80s, sort of this like, spiritual movements of many white people trying to learn about people of color, basically, people of color practices and this one person from Hawaii, feel like, have learned Reiki from Usui student in the 19, I want to say the 30s, and then she like, obviously didn’t practice in Hawaii. But during all these spiritual sort of, I don’t want to say awakening, so that is not the right word. But just like this drive of white people wanting to learn about Native American and Asian practices. You know, she came to the mainland, and she started teaching people and charging them a lot of money to learn these practices, and so learning that too, is also like, oh, like another layer of like, you basically like, hustle these white people for their money, which like, at first I was like laughing about, I was like, Oh my god, I love that. But then the other part was like, oh, man, you are capitalizing on a spiritual track is like, weird, and so I’m pretty sure her last name was Takata. I can’t remember anyone’s first name.

Hiroki Keaveney 43:26

So this is my own stuff of needing to learn more about history, and I don’t speak as an expert, I just speak as myself and what I’ve learned over the years, but basically, she came to the US and based on our experiences of living in the US, and like, she even made it more adaptable for Westerners to learn Reiki more so than assume we did, like, she refined it in a way, and it was because of her that we know Reiki now because she brought it to the mainland.

Hiroki Keaveney 44:02

So after she passed away, because she had like, told her 20 something students like, you need to charge people several thousand dollars to learn Reiki or it’s not real Reiki, basically, and probably the one Japanese American in this, like, group of people was like, oh, we need to make it more affordable, and her name was Iris, she’s like, no, like, we need to make Reiki accessible and affordable for people. So she started attuning people at a much lower rate and has of these different iterations, and like, fine-tunings of Reiki but, and really, I want to say because of Japanese American women of color, that we still have Reiki in the US in whatever form it is.

Hiroki Keaveney 44:51

Basically the last thing I’ll say about what I’ve learned about history, and when I was talking with a friend, who grew up in Japan, when we’re talking about Reiki, she’s like, Oh, what’s that? And then she’s like, oh, yeah, well, Reiki, the word in Japan. It means someone who is connected to the spirit world. So someone who has a lot of Reiki, like, will be sensitive to spirits, and she talks about her friend when they’re at the cemetery. The friends like, I got to get out of here, and she’s like, yeah, that friend has a lot of Reiki, we would say she has Reiki because she’s connected to the spirit world.

Hiroki Keaveney 45:24

So even though the practice isn’t considered by many people, whether in Japan or Japanese Americans in the United States, like, considered Japanese or how it’s been appropriated to the point that it is not considered Japanese anymore. It’s cool that in Japan, it still has this sort of spiritual connotation of what is Reiki? And how for me, I mean, that was really special, because Reiki was very much an opening for connecting more with my ancestors, and so I love that it was about the spirit world, because when I offer Reiki and when I receive Reiki, I feel very connected to spirits.

Hiroki Keaveney 46:04

Yeah, thanks for letting me share the story.

Candice Wu 46:06

Absolutely. I’m glad you told it. Because I had no idea before you shared that with me that that was the way that Reiki, the story of Reiki has transformed and taken place. So it’s really fascinating, and that kind of leads back to that thought I was having about a lot of times we don’t even know we are appropriating spiritually from another culture.

Hiroki Keaveney 46:30

Yeah.

Candice Wu 46:31

It’s like the history of that has just shown how removed and more removed it’s gotten from the roots, and so much that the people at the roots forgot.

Hiroki Keaveney 46:42

I came over people’s names. Yeah, I was like, I can’t remember anyone’s name.

Candice Wu 46:49

Well, yeah, I think that just also shows how complex it is, and how much information there is to know, and to be kind to ourselves, because we can’t always know it all. But I think what you said about having the willingness to learn what’s behind a practice, or where it comes from is the most important aspect because we don’t know everything, and we, how could we —

Hiroki Keaveney 47:17

I definitely don’t, and also to be honest, like, part of my hesitation, like I can see their first names in my mind, and I think the woman’s name is Kawaio, I’m not even sure, and then the man’s name I think is Mikao. But part of my hesitation in saying it out loud is because I don’t know Japanese, and I have this shame around not being able to pronounce my people’s names. I feel like, even to this day, even though I’ve come a long way, and I try not to internalize shame when people say, “why don’t you know Japanese”, and I’m like, the fourth generation, my family was doing internment. I started to like, make the conversation so good, and then like, go to those like, sad face. But I wanted to be real about —

Candice Wu 47:43

I don’t experience that, yeah, I think it’s really important to be real, and yeah, bring these aspects out because that’s part of, that sounds like a very interesting part of why it’s hard to remember the names or that, it’s to take them in or to save them.

Hiroki Keaveney 48:20

I’m scared I’ll pronounce them wrong. I don’t know, unfortunately, that part of my heritage, because so much of internment was about stopping language learning, and so much of becoming an American is talk about is you’re supposed to become “American” and not know, the language of your people.

Candice Wu 48:42

Right. It’s a painful reality.

Hiroki Keaveney 48:46

Yeah, and that was the second part about appropriation, I wanted to share about, you know. I hope that when we’re all like learning from each other about like, what is appropriation and like, how can you know, I practice things in a way that is respectful. I think like, having an understanding that everyone sort of comes to the table differently. Like, sometimes when someone is learning a practice, from their own heritage. How to work through so many levels of unworthiness and shame, that I would mess up Reiki or that. But even now, like, I’m telling the Reiki story rough, you know, like, I feel like there’s this added sort of burden of when something has been taken away and appropriated that when you’re relearning it and reclaiming it, and you’re from it, there’s this added layer of trauma, you have to work through in order to heal through.

Hiroki Keaveney 49:47

So I think that’s a big piece around appropriation is how another group of people, if they take it from you, and you’re trying to relearn it, usually, how you have to work through so much shame, in order to relearn who you are, because I, you know, before our conversation, I like really wanted to sort of like, what is appropriation? And not just like the whole theoretical sort of in your head? What is appropriation? How does it feel in your body? What does it feel like? Like, it’s not just about the intellectual, it’s like about, how it leaves people in their bodies at the end of the day.

Candice Wu 50:32

Yeah, I think that’s essential. I love that you brought it back to that.

Hiroki Keaveney 50:37

Reiki helped me get into my body. So —

Candice Wu 50:40

I think it’s such a beautiful piece you’re sharing here, it’s so nuanced that the very practice that you wanted to learn, that is rooted in your culture, you needed to work through some of the shame and the trauma that your people perhaps experienced, and the people who carried Reiki through —

Hiroki Keaveney 50:59

Right.

Candice Wu 51:00

– experienced, perhaps, and the shame was still there. It was a way it sounds like, a way back then that was helpful, because people were getting hurt and killed for being connected with it, and connected with Japanese culture, and being Japanese, and so what we can do when we appropriate, I think, is to turn away from the pain that is also associated with it, or that came with the story, and what you’ve done is you’ve looked right at it.

Candice Wu 51:33

And I also want to bring the other side of the coin, and I know I was saying when I’m approaching spiritual objects who are practices, I was using the word caution and observation. I think observation is good for me. But I think caution might be necessary at times, if there’s a vibe from someone else of like, you need to really respect this, then I might feel more cautious, right.

Candice Wu 51:56

But I also want to bring in the feel of a joyous exploration, that learning about other people’s spirituality or their ritual, or ceremony, if you’re invited in and welcome. But that can be such a joyous place that I approached.

Hiroki Keaveney 52:17

I love that. Yeah.

Candice Wu 52:18

And not caution, you know, it doesn’t have to be like, oh, I’m going to tiptoe and step on eggshells, but it can be like, Okay, let me see. Like, I’m willing to learn and open.

Hiroki Keaveney 52:30

Yeah, I feel like that happens when I meet people who are like, very much rooted in their practice, and like, now, what’s up? Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like, getting to learn from people who are like, really, in their power with whatever practice and lineage they’re a part of.

Hiroki Keaveney 52:51

Honestly, I’m like, Loki tearing up, like thinking about it. Like, I feel like when I see or experience someone who is rooted in their heritage, yeah, thank you for sharing that part too, because I think that’s the piece that’s really important is when people invite you and welcome you, and like that, and you’re in a respectful way, like, learning from one another, like, connecting spiritually those people is just, it’s so, it feeds me in a way that the physical world doesn’t, and it’s so essential for like, my humanity and like, feeling interconnected with people like, I’m really glad you brought that up, because it is so beautiful. Like, when you see someone who’s in their power in their ancestors, like just doing it.

Candice Wu 53:46

Right. It is — if I’m getting you, right — like from the field, that you’re saying, and I’m going to be using my own words here, but it feels like a radiance can shine from someone who’s really in their roots and honoring all those who came before them.

Hiroki Keaveney 54:03

Yeah.

Candice Wu 54:03

And who all those whose histories informed what they are able to offer as well, and the gifts that they hold and carry through, and that there’s so much power to honoring everyone behind that picture, and not just the one person or the practice itself, but who’s contributed that there’s an ancient radiance that gets passed along.

Hiroki Keaveney 54:33

You can feel it and you see it. You just see it on someone’s face.

Candice Wu 54:37

Absolutely. Yeah. So we’re getting close to the end. Is there anything else? I know there’s a lot to share, but I wonder for today —

Hiroki Keaveney 54:48

You know, it’s funny, the activity that I learned in Asian American Studies class, my Professor of that class, Dr. Wong taught me, take a quarter, and like, put it on one of your eyes, and then he like, close the other eye, and she was like: when money is the focus of your life this is what you see, and she’s like, slowly move that coin away from your eye. Yeah, and she’s like, see how the whole world opens up when you’re less focused on that coin?

Hiroki Keaveney 55:19

Yeah, and it was like, wow, like, I just love that, and so, you know, when I shared Dr. Wong’s story with Uncle Fred at FAHNS, a Filipino society, he was like, he shared something with me that I’m just remembering now as I’m sharing the quarter story. He said, stare at one of the corners of the room. I’m like, Okay, so I’m like, staring, and he was like, now take a step back. Okay, and so he’s like, keep walking backward, and all okay, what he’s like, see how there are walls and a ceiling now, see how there are other corners in the room. He’s like, when you’re focused, because I think I was like talking about growing up super conservative Catholic, he was a very progressive Catholic, and so it was really healing being mentored by him for that reason, and so basically, he was like, when you think of your ways are the only ways, it’s like you only see a corner of the room, and he’s like, when you like, expand, you just see that there’s like this whole room, it’s not just the corner, and that you need all of the corners to make a room work.

Hiroki Keaveney 56:28

Essentially, he was just saying, we’re all interconnected, and all of our beliefs are part of like, the human experience, basically. Yeah, I’m literally just remembering that metaphor now, and it’s funny, because another teacher, her name is Dr. Bridges, she was the one to teach me Sociology class I was in at school, and she said that, like, she was talking about truth with small T’s instead of a big T and how all the small T, truth, are like ways people search for big T truth, in a sense, and yeah, I feel like all those three metaphors sort of, like, guided me, my sophomore year, when I was sort of like, seeking something that wasn’t what I grew up with.

Hiroki Keaveney 57:15

And what was funny is by the end of the school year, I came out as gay. And it like, I feel like being trans and being queer, is so spiritual for me, because it’s like, really knowing myself, and I think we always talk about meditation, it’s always felt like, you know, get into stillness, the quietness, know, yourself, and like, being queer, and like, my gender and my sexual, like, it’s knowing myself, and like, being really clear on it, even when society is telling me that it’s not normal, being like, this is who I am, and it’s spiritual for me. And —

Candice Wu 57:56

Yeah.

Hiroki Keaveney 57:57

Yeah, the last thing I’ll say is, I know we’re out time. So for me, like what I love doing with clients is like, you know, how can I know myself better? How can I be more connected to my heritage, future generations, all that good stuff, and I think like, one thing that’s helped me over the years of like, recording my family stories, like, if you really want to know your family story, like, either cook with your family, because a lot of things will come out when you’re making food, or have someone else interview them.

Hiroki Keaveney 58:33

I know that sounds weird. Like, I got lucky that my family recorded a lot of their stories on this like an archival digital website called densho.org. It’s like they collect all these Japanese American stories on internment, oftentimes, your family will only share certain things because they want to protect you. If you really want to know the true details, if your family’s open to it, maybe they need to talk to one of your friends or like a third party or whatever, and like, record it, because they will share things that they will not share with you. Because they want to protect you from the ugly reality of what they live. If they live through, like ugly realities. You know what I mean?

Candice Wu 59:13

That is so interesting.

Hiroki Keaveney 59:15

Yeah. That is something that I definitely learned that was like, Whoa, like, my family really opened up about their traumas to these strangers interested in their story, because they never told me that because I’m the grandbaby. Why would they tell me that, they want to protect me! So that’s something I learned. If you’re interested in your family story, sometimes it’s better to have someone else interview, though, is a big thing.

Candice Wu 59:39

Yeah, and that sort of witness from the outside can bring an extra witness.

Hiroki Keaveney 59:45

Yes.

Candice Wu 59:45

That opens up different parts of the story.

Hiroki Keaveney 59:48

Yes.

Candice Wu 59:48

But that’s really such a good point. An interesting point about having someone else interview your family members.

Hiroki Keaveney 59:55

Yeah.

Candice Wu 59:56

If silence was the way we survived, then we would pass down silence.

Candice Wu 1:00:01

When I do Family Constellations work, one on one, and in a group, it’s often that because there’s an element of unfamiliarity with the people around you, that gives way for something different, and sometimes more, and so it’s, I can see the power of that, and also want to integrate what I got from you about the corners of the room, that metaphor.

Candice Wu 1:00:31

It brings me back around to the idea that we have our view, and we have learned this one way of life. But in order to see a full picture, we need other people’s pictures as well to put all the pieces together. We just can’t possibly see it all. Or, at least I don’t know that experience of seeing it all. It’s helping us whenever we bring in another person in the fold, in our awareness, if we can see another person, we can see another part of that larger truth. So thanks for sharing that picture.

Hiroki Keaveney 1:01:11

Oh, my God. Yeah, that, I mean, those three metaphors about money and truth and interconnectedness of all people like, yeah, that was such a transformative year of my life.

Candice Wu 1:01:24

Yeah.

Hiroki Keaveney 1:01:24

I was so grateful for all of those mentors. I wouldn’t be me without them.

Candice Wu 1:01:29

It’s beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing today, Hiroki, I learned so much.

Hiroki Keaveney 1:01:37

Thank you for sharing everything you said. I was worried. I was like, am I talking to us, because, you know, it’s like the guests just talk. But I was like, to be more conversation. So no, I’m, yeah, thank you for sharing everything you shared.

Candice Wu 1:01:50

When I experience people talking for a broader picture of people, it doesn’t fit well with me, because I think, when you say, I’m just sharing my story and my experience in my part of the picture, that it feels like, that’s the way I’m most comfortable doing it too, because I can’t really speak for anyone else, and it’s not my place, and it really feels grounding when you speak from that place.

Hiroki Keaveney 1:02:21

It does, and I mean, so much of colonialism and all of that is speaking for other people, writing about other people, not listening to them. So it’s like when we speak from ourselves.

Candice Wu 1:02:37

Yeah, it’s like such a relief to just be and to share, and to not have someone like, interrupt or speak for you. It’s, yeah, it’s you.

Hiroki Keaveney 1:02:49

Thank you.

Candice Wu 1:02:50

Thank you. Okay, until next time.

Hiroki Keaveney 1:02:53

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Candice Wu 1:02:57

Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode with Hiroki and me. I appreciate you being out there and tuning in. I learned a lot from this conversation, and that’s one of the best things about doing podcasts with people is that it’s not exactly just an interview. It’s more so a conversation that can create an alchemy of new ideas and inspiration, a new awareness for both me and the person that’s on the show. So I hope that you’re getting something out of it as well.

Candice Wu 1:03:27

What I love about Hiroki is how understanding compassionate as well as honoring they are. If you want to get in touch with Hiroki or learn about their services, you can find them at dragonflyintergenerationalhealing.com.

Candice Wu 1:03:43

If these episodes inspire you and you want more, check it out at CandiceWu.com/podcast or go to my Patreon site at CandiceWu.com/patreon, to become a supporter.

Candice Wu 1:03:54

I’d love to give you my updates in my bi-monthly newsletter. So if you’d like to hear from me or connect up with the Embody Community on Facebook, go to CandiceWu.com/embody.

Candice Wu 1:04:05

Take care and see you all next time on the Embody Podcast.