Aleta Cai & The Human Condition: Self Love, Sensuality, Permission & Submission — EP62

Candice Wu 0:00
This episode is with special guest Aleta Cai who is a New York City based healer and dominatrix combining her experiences in a unique form of somatic and energetic healing. In this episode, we talked about permission for pleasure and sensuality, shifting the beliefs around sexuality, how she uses BDSM techniques to awaken the energy of the sacral area, self-love, Kundalini awakenings, showing up in the world versus hiding and shifting the belief sets of lineage and culture around sexuality. This episode may not be for all audiences, please use your own discretion. If you're uncertain whether these topics will trigger you, you can check in with the show notes which will give you a heads up about certain sensitive topics. You can find these show notes at CandiceWu.com/Aleta.

Candice Wu 0:52
Hello and welcome. You're listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom embodied healing and self-love.

Candice Wu 1:06
My name is Candice Wu and I'm a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-Creative Conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:27
Before we jump into the episode, today, I want to share with you a recent passion project of mine, which is sharing about Dream Work. I love Dream Work. It has given me so much connection with myself, my wisdom and all these energies that may be hidden and discarded or unrevealed to me. And when I tap into my dreams, even when they seem weird, mundane or even terrifying, sometimes, I glean an entire world of wisdom and my own power that I can bring into my life. And so this passion project is a series of dream classes on Skillshare. So, these are dream classes that are in video form and the first one's already out there. It's about how to remember and awaken your dream life. The basics about recording your dreams and how to best remember that when you wake up.

Candice Wu 2:29
And a second one is out there about creating the blueprint of the physiology that will allow your dream life to flourish. These include specific breathing techniques, yogic and body center practices, as well as meditations that you can use to ground yourself and develop the safety and playfulness for your dream life to thrive. So, all of these will help your nervous system feel supported in deep rest and relaxation and giving the capacity for you to remember your dreams better than before.

Candice Wu 3:03
You can find those classes as well as a Skillshare offer that can give you either a couple of free months or a couple of months for 99 cents at CandiceWu.com/dreamphysiology. Any money that I make from Skillshare from these classes will go straight towards the podcast and in creating more classes that you and others can enjoy and also learn from. I hope you enjoy the class and the classes that are coming up around Dream Work and please share if you feel inspired to with anyone that loves Dream Work or wants to get involved in their own dream life.

Candice Wu 3:44
I loved this conversation with Aleta. It was so much fun and we talked about so many different topics related, all related to each other, all related to loving ourselves, all related to the human condition and all the parts of ourselves that might show up and that we can utilize to know ourselves more deeply. Eleta Cai is a New York-based healer and dominatrix who combines her experiences in a very unique form of somatic and energetic healing. And she focuses on embodiment, empowerment and processing trauma. And through her methodology of integrating submission, her clients are able to surrender into their own vulnerabilities in a transformative way.

Candice Wu 4:28
Aleta holds a BA in Psychology as well as an MA in Film Studies both from NYU. And after a few years of working in fashion, she followed her curiosity and fear into a BDSM dungeon. And this ignited a path of healing and integration she never foresaw. And she not only learned the ropes there but learn the ropes for a new way of understanding the human condition. She had a Kundalini awakening that further catapulted her towards a colleague of healing and she began her pursuit of the healing arts first through Reiki, hypnosis, clairvoyance, and integrative life coaching. So, I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, or even more. I love the way Aleta talks about the integration, the crossover of sexuality and power, as well as healing and how all of that can come together. So, let's jump in.

Candice Wu 5:26
Okay, it's fantastic to have you here, Aleta. I'm thrilled that you're on the show. Welcome.

Aleta Cai 5:32
Thank you, I'm really excited to be here.

Candice Wu 5:34
So, I've been following you on Instagram and a friend referred me to you. I just appreciate how vulnerable you share about your personal life, your insights, and the way that you bring together topics that make me think and inspire me, as well as bring together topics around spirituality, sensuality, sexuality, power, loving yourself, all mixed with biology, the unconscious energy in the body. So, you are a New York-based healer and dominatrix and you combine your experiences in a very unique form of somatic and energetic healing. Tell me about that. What brought you here now in your life?

Aleta Cai 6:22
It was just a series of, I suppose the universe, shutting doors and opening windows and kind of following that. And I've initially thought that I wanted to be a professor. Actually, before that I was in fashion, I thought this was it. And then that didn't work out because I really just didn't like the way that women's bodies were being objectified and treated and handled and what the overall message was after that, after the images are created, and then they proliferate in the collective unconscious and body shame women. So, I just said I can't do this anymore and decided, maybe, academia is the right path. And upon following that track, it just was like a giant door shoved in my face basically, like slammed in my face. And I knew that this was not the right track for me.

Aleta Cai 7:12
During this time, I was experimenting a little bit I was freelancing and fashion and in digital. And I just kind of always felt like I wanted to hide a part of myself like to be very secretive about certain things that I did in my life. And one of them was my exploration in a BDSM and dungeon. So, I was a professional dominatrix when I was 24, that's when I started. And I didn't take it very seriously at the beginning. And that was very classic domination, it was just not what I do now, which is a totally different approach. But that's where I really learned the ins and outs of what bondage was, how to flog someone, just a very basic skill sets.

Aleta Cai 7:53
And from that point on, I decided that I would just go independent. So that means that I just would separate myself from the dungeon and become an individual entity, and basically have a private practice. And there is something about just that traditional style of domination that I just didn't resonate with, it was a dead end for me. And that was the point of my life where I had a Kundalini awakening. And suddenly, it was like, it was not only just a dark night of the soul, but it was an ego death. And I let go of so many of my attachments and my narratives. And I realized I'm a healer, I'd always been it just started clicking that I was very empathic, was very intuitive, I was very sensitive my whole life. And these in combination then made me realize, oh, wow, like I actually have energy healing abilities.

Aleta Cai 8:44
And after the Kundalini awakening, my first few sessions, they were like nothing else. It was like suddenly some conduit or some blocks just melted in my body and I was feeling so charged up with all this source energy, Chi or key or whatever it is that was running through me to my clients. And even though it was still very classic BDSM what I was doing, my clients were just like, Whoa, like, Where are you from? What's this energy? They were, they're not very, like, none of them were energetically sensitive people at all. I mean, they're very classic. Like, you remember how a lawyer who was like, What is going on here? He's like, I can feel electricity just shooting down my entire body.

Candice Wu 9:25
Oh, wow!

Aleta Cai 9:26
Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:27
So, you were having these experiences with clients?

Aleta Cai 9:30
Absolutely

Candice Wu 9:31
With your clients? Yeah, wow!

Aleta Cai 9:32
Yeah… It was, like, I was in shock, is like what's going on, I was looking at my hands, it was like jolts of electricity, just washing through me and the other person and seeing the result. I mean, they just look like they transformed. Like it was like, I don't know what happened, but they, just baggage was lifted off of their shoulders, supercharged energy, and I would feel really high afterward. So, I knew from that point on, there is something going on that really a typical but that just became the foundation of what I then developed as a methodology encompassing all the different practices like Reiki, hypnosis, clairvoyance, and then tying that all together with what I knew with my BDSM.

Candice Wu 10:15
Wow. That's incredible.

Aleta Cai 10:17
Thank you.

Candice Wu 10:18
So when, when you were saying you were had the dark night of the soul, and then all this energy was charging through you? What was that experience like for you and what? What broke down inside of you?

Aleta Cai 10:31
I believe now looking back, that awakening or dark night of the soul was a two-year process. And a lot of that was also like, it felt really, really horrible. My mother was really sick. And around the two-year point, she really was on her path towards death. I didn't know what I was going to do, I was clinging on to this, maybe it'd be a professor, but that didn't seem like it was going the right way. And so, it created a sense of struggle and turmoil within where I just felt so incredibly lost.

Aleta Cai 11:07
And I remember going to Japan at that point is not having no sense of what it is that I wanted to do or who I wanted to be. When I came back. I just, I can't even explain the turmoil that I felt it was just like, I can't keep living like this, it got really dark. And so that made me start looking for answers in places that I just didn't even conceive of before, like within the energy medicine field or within, you know, different, different, I guess, Eastern approaches towards healing that were outside of the traditional last year and approach.

Aleta Cai 11:44
And what I ended up finding was a Reiki healer, who kind of just kind of initiated me into this. She really was the first person who dissolved a lot of my blocks and helped me realize what it was that I was coming across. That night when I went home. And I'm remember feeling like my reality had collapsed. I really felt like, with no exaggeration, that I wanted to jump out a window, they had so incredibly bleak and

Candice Wu 12:10
Oh yeah.

Aleta Cai 12:11
Yeah. And the next morning, what was surprising was I woke up and I suddenly felt like it was a new lease on life. It was like something opened, I felt like I was connected to some spirituality that I had never had before I was raised without religion, without spirituality. And I was giggling and laughing and I felt so light, lighter than I'd ever felt in my life. And I just felt like my heart was open. And I was connecting, and just so grateful to be alive. And so, that's really what it felt like it was a profound shift from dark to light.

Candice Wu 12:49
I can really relate to that. I think I've had maybe two phases of that. And it is, you know that saying where, I don't know, it's like something like, when things feel like they're breaking, they're probably breaking open. It just makes me think of that, of how, when the things that we thought we were who we thought we were just breaks and dismantles. It can feel incredibly horrifying and terrifying and then when that clears away, the clutter, as you've said it before, and some of your posts on Instagram, we find ourselves and then we find that lightness and joy, and that laughter. So, I'm just relating to what you said about your story. And it sounds like you're in this path of who you truly, and who you truly are and who you truly want to be.

Aleta Cai 13:54
Absolutely. And it's really, I mean, I feel like the dark night of the soul itself maybe as a second step in the whole spectrum of the whole process of everything about of maybe if it's encapsulated as enlightenment, or just the journey itself. I do feel like what comes after that is just still a series of difficulties and integrations and different ways of understanding, different theories, and philosophies. And it's never-ending.

Candice Wu 14:24
Yeah, that evolution.

Aleta Cai 14:26
Exactly.

Candice Wu 14:28
And during the process of that kind of awakening that's so powerful. What did you do? And what do you to, to support yourself through it?

Aleta Cai 14:38
Initially, I didn't really have any resources whatsoever I, after it happened, I lost the majority of my friends because it was such a radical way of thinking, that they just weren't used to it. I also really needed to self-isolate. I'm not sure if you've had the experience to where it's like suddenly, when this happens, you just want to kind of be by yourself and learn everything that you can about your new cells and your new approach to life. Yeah, so,

Candice Wu 15:08
Very much so.

Aleta Cai 15:09
Right, it's, I think it's a necessary part of the process. And because of that, I didn't really have a lot of support. And I also at that stage, I was very ungrounded, it was like my crown chakra opened, and it opened so wide, that I was just out of my body. So, a lot of it was that and just finding, following my curiosity, again, which is what led me into BDSM. Following my curiosity into learning about Reiki or learning about these different modalities of healing that helped me surround myself with different people who share the same interests. And then from shared conversations, just picking up bits and pieces of what I resonated with, and what I would incorporate into my own practice. And also, I read so much it was like this thirst for new knowledge. So, anything I could get myself hands on, I read everything, I could Google, I googled, I probably Google dark night of the soul, maybe like 100 times.

Aleta Cai 16:06
Just define different ways that people have like lifted. You know, like all my YouTube channels have subscribed to so many of those channeling, channels and I think it's just like going through it. And then also, I feel like the universe supports you in that they, the universe presents you with a series of opportunities to learn. So, whatever it is that you're facing now, whether it be a challenge, or an opportunity, or maybe those are the same things, it's really looking at and distilling what it is that you're learning and picking out those specific pieces that resonate with all the shared experiences to understand what web of development that you're in. And then from that point on, if you can match the next phase of your life cycle, or if you can kind of develop a little bit further after you've, I guess, passed that lesson, then you go on to the next stage. So, I do feel like even if you have no resources, no support, no access to any sort of knowledge. The universe is going to give you that opportunity to have that knowledge just through living.

Candice Wu 17:13
Absolutely. I love that reminder, it feels like just easing in and letting that happen. And listening to those pieces, those signals that are trying to come to you already.

Aleta Cai 17:25
Exactly. That's a really beautiful way to put it. It's just awareness.

Candice Wu 17:29
Yeah, awareness. So, tell me about how you incorporate BDSM now, because it sounds like the way that felt deadening to you, that dead end past two before has really taken a different shape. And you've harnessed those skills and that power in a different way now with your healing work. So, what does that look like?

Aleta Cai 17:58
So the differences would be in the dungeon, it would be a people coming in for maybe like an hour, two hours, some people did longer sessions, but mostly the intention was just to honestly get off. And that was built into the scene. So, even though there weren't any illegal activities, it still felt like it was catering specifically towards and not only just eroticism or sexuality or anything, but just for the aim of an orgasm, which that just didn't sit well with me because I wanted something that was more open-ended and more transformative. And it also felt like a no judgment whatsoever to that type of practice because I, of course, began that way.

Aleta Cai 18:41
I just feel like that creates some sense of dead end or it's just not, it's not really something that can be cathartic. And that's really what I was aiming for in my work. I wanted something that was ongoing that would unfold much like the journey that we all are on. So, when I went into more of a healing route, what I did was isolated all the BDSM components that I had learned in the dungeon. For instance, flogging, whipping, caning, just deciphering what it is these activities were able to do to elicit catharsis. And I really studied a lot with — I met with certain people that I really respected and saw their techniques. So, not only was it looking at building my techniques, but looking at also what other people do to elicit certain reactions like pain reactions, or how do you pace caning so that you can create a body high and what's too much.

Aleta Cai 19:39
So, these were really expansive ways of relating to something which in the dungeon we weren't taught, it was just like, just take this cane and meet this person. And you learn a little basic how to like you basically new, don't beat him here, don't do this there. But that was it. And what I realized was, it is so expansive like you, you can work with the root chakra when it comes to hitting certain spots on a person's but, and it really does work that area where a lot of stress, we hold it, a lot of us hold it in our sacred. So these were just like fine tuning and pulling in and creating more of a larger way of approaching it. That's more therapeutic and origin as opposed to just orgasm base.

Candice Wu 20:20
That's beautiful. It sounds like you really took those skills and refined them and opened up the ways that that can be a channel to opening up who someone is or what's held in the body.

Aleta Cai 20:35
Absolutely.

Candice Wu 20:36
So with that, tell me more about how you use dominance and submission and incorporate that to help your clients surrender into their own vulnerabilities and learn more about themselves?

Aleta Cai 20:52
That's a really great question. So, what I think is that there's one big piece here, which is some of the people who see me, who explore their submission are truly exploring it from a part of their core identities. I do feel like there are some people who are hard-wired to feel more satisfied as a submissive and because of that, because they are given a safe space, they have an opportunity to explore that.

Aleta Cai 21:16
Secondly, I do find that sometimes there are ways that we, I think most people have a certain curated way of behaving in society because of certain rules and certain industries, or certain places and spaces that we all fit in. And unfortunately, a lot of times, these restrict us from exploring the whole spectrum of how we can be, and sometimes impedes, especially these pieces of core identity. So, if we have a context where it's basically decontextualized from the entirety of social expectations, and then we bring it into a really safe space where people can just be themselves and do whatever they want, and incorporate their core identity is, then I feel like that itself is therapeutic, not only for the sub, but for the dom, too.

Aleta Cai 22:06
And then I would also say, in submission, if we're just looking at submission, in this context, in BDSM, it's allowing them to also fall into their sexuality. So, even though this isn't sexual in nature, there is a core part about this being the submission, I do feel like in BDSM and kink are all really tied into sexuality. I do feel like most people have a very primal nature that's already tied into kinks and to non-vanilla types of interactions. Even if they're just tiny, like someone may be like, be choked, or have their hair pulled.

Candice Wu 22:45
It's in our nature to have kinks and to have those be part of what excites us.

Aleta Cai 22:52
Right, right. And given that this is a place where that out in the open, I do feel like people can surrender more to that aspect. And I really look at when I'm looking at power, I'm looking at the power, the life force that's sitting in this sacral chakra, which oftentimes is shut down, especially for women. And also for men, too, that I see, I noticed that there's this pattern of closing off to emotions, as not every man is like this, of course, I'm grossly generalizing. But I do feel like there's a social pressure for masculinity to be closed down, and no emotions are appropriate except for anger. So, when I see men in my practice, I do feel like their life force is also blocked in the sacral chakra, maybe for different reasons or similar reasons.

Aleta Cai 23:37
So, when we're looking at submission, they're sinking into not only their core identities, they're also thinking into the freedom of expression. And also, they're sinking into this layer of sexuality that's inherent in the human condition, in just living day to day and being a person. And when we have all those things address at the same time, that's when I feel like someone can be truly vulnerable. So, it's not just about sharing or being very open, it's truly a state of being where they're receptive, they understand that they're understood and that there's nothing they need to be held to in that moment. And that allows a really deep level of healing because they're very porous, in all ways. And I do find, I also have a vanilla healing practice. And although it's, I don't incorporate BDSM into this practice, what I do find is that people usually have a little more of a difficulty and talking about their relationship to their sexuality to their sexual self. And it's not really focused on that at all. So, that's why I make it kind of a core part of the BDSM experience because then that component, which is so strong, and all of us, it's our will to procreate, to create, to feel and if we can incorporate that then it's more of a holistic approach.

Candice Wu 25:01
I love that, I love how you're describing what's what can be locked into the sacred area, and it was just thinking about second chakra and how its power in relationship. And what you're saying is exactly that like power in relationship to your emotions and what you're you can and you cannot emote, or be or feel through given, you know the constraints of what we've put on ourselves in society

Aleta Cai 25:32
Exactly.

Candice Wu 25:33
But you're unleashing that, and creating that freedom, where that power isn't over you anymore, you harness all of it, you can be all of it.

Aleta Cai 25:45
Exactly. That's really nicely said.

Candice Wu 25:48
This sounds really fun.

Aleta Cai 25:52
It's really fun. It's um, I was thinking that yesterday not to toot my own horn, but I was just thinking like, well, like I'm pretty lucky, just being able to do kind of like, make it my own and make it a place where I can feel like I can express not only my core identity as being a healer, but my, well my core identity as a healer and as a dominatrix.

Aleta Cai 26:14
I do feel like a lot of times, in my practice, I'm also being healed through my relationship, as you say that the sacral chakra is about connection is about relationship. And a lot of this healing, I really feel like is always about the interrelationship of what it is that you're matching and what it is that you are working through in your life. And when you can see it mirrored, it also helps you to release a lot of your own blocks. And it's fun I can where I can dress up as a dominatrix. And I can feel great. And we're latex and where are these like super heels that are six inches tall! What I can't do that in normal-day-life, and I can strut around, and with canes and whips, and I mean, I think it's so, it's like theater in a way but a theater for one.

Aleta Cai 27:03
Meanwhile, I do feel like I'm adding something I'm helping my subs live a healthier life, or at least be more aware of a more comprehensive health and energetic parts of their lives that are so important to living a balanced life. So, I really feel like it's a win-win for everyone. Especially me.

Candice Wu 27:26
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. I think that that's where you know, you've, you're living the life you want because it is for you, and it is forever. Like it's, I guess I want to say it's just not separate, as you're speaking to it's so much your expression and something you love and want to express in you. And then it is mutually, in whatever way it is for the other person or other people. It's mutually as powerful. And healing. So, I think that's just beautiful.

Aleta Cai 28:02
Thank you, you're right about that. It's, um, I do feel like healing is a selfless service. At the same time, I think that there's duality. So all of this selflessness to selfishness to why it is that we are unique individuals wide as we're coming to this earth with certain gifts. And only we have them in combinations that we do. And a lot of that is like not making it about you but also knowing what it is that you have to offer being present, which really is about standing your ground is you. And so, then people can then play off that energy and be able to utilize your energy. In the beginning, I was always really invisible in my work. I didn't think that I needed to be really, like I didn't want it to be about me at all. I disappeared. And I think that was problematic, because then where are you? You're a ghost, you're not really just like adding anything you the actual conversation.

Candice Wu 29:01
Right.

Aleta Cai 29:02
It needs to be a conversation.

Candice Wu 29:04
Absolutely. I mean, I have a very obvious and clear example for that in my life when I first started this podcast, which was about a year ago, I was so afraid of it, I was, I knew I needed to do it. I knew I needed to put my voice out there. But when I was doing interviews, I would just ask one quick question and then disappear. And I would just hope the other person would talk for the rest of the time,

Aleta Cai 29:30
Right!

Candice Wu 29:33
If you're listening to this, you know, or you Aleta, you ever go back to like the early conversations, I love the guests that I had on there. And that's part of why I wanted to give them the space to talk. But a big part of that, too, was me just hiding. Hoping they would take up the space. so I didn't have to and that definitely didn't feel good. And I knew it. I knew it was happening. But it took some time to show up.

Aleta Cai 29:59
Yeah, I definitely feel you on that.

Candice Wu 30:02
Yeah. And how did it go for you to start showing up for yourself and in yourself? What initiated that? or How did you do that?

Aleta Cai 30:14
So, I believe at the very beginning, because I was still coming off as the whole expansive crown chakra opening and I wasn't exactly grounded and I didn't understand the spiritual tenants of being embodied and why that was important. I would say I then in my earlier days, matched clients who also wanted to basically bypass. I feel like that was just misinformation, everything that I was reading was basically about transcendental states about leaving the body to obtain spirituality. And that was the good way to be above it, to be so above the truth that you don't even see it as truth anymore.

Aleta Cai 30:53
So, in my evolution, what ended up happening was working through a series of big blocks as in blocks to addressing what it was I was really feeling. And these came in episodes in my life, for instance, grieving after my mom passed, that was really tapping into the core of my relationship with my family, and all these things that moved out in my lower chakras. Then, a lot of the other work I would attribute to acting. I was luckily had the opportunity to take these acting courses, which I'm still in now. And that was all about being in the body being present. And also just knowing how to move the energy of emotions in your body where you hold them. That was an education.

Aleta Cai 31:43
Just seeing how other people also even related to their emotions helped me realize what collectively we hold and how we hold it, and how to help other people move it out. So, I would say that establish some of the groundwork, and also my acting teacher, notice she during our talkback, she said to me, you're absolutely invisible in your work. She's like you make it so about the other person's experience that you're not even in it. She's like, you can't hide, you have to be there because if you're in it, then you're allowing, your you're basically achieving the aim of taking care of the other person, because you're giving them something to do, as opposed to just like being there holding the space for the other person.

Aleta Cai 32:25
So, when I heard that, I realized, okay, it really is important. I was always resistant to seeming like it was about me or like being coming across like narcissistic, or anything in the work because I had healers in the past who I found that with, who made it all about them. But I do feel like it's a fine balance, because people are being drawn to you for a certain reason, because you hold the knowledge that maybe they need you to share, they need your experiences. And so, being invisible just is not serving anyone and the more present you are but still allowing and still holding the space, the more you're giving to the other person.

Candice Wu 33:04
Absolutely. I love how you're sharing that now. And it's, just great to see you show up. And I think the people that make me feel the safest are people like you that are sharing vulnerably or honestly. And not just using that but just like having that be open for itself it, for its own sake, but then also being able to tie that into something that's insightful and helpful because you're experiencing it. Not because it's like for other people, but it's for you. And it's valuable,

Aleta Cai 33:45
Right, and it's universal in the end. I do feel like a lot of this is about learning that going into the self and unraveling that and being able to share those pieces not because it's just because I want to talk about myself, but because it's a shared experience. I can help other people realize what they're going through, too, like I had a client, who said she never realized the extent to which she was sexually assaulted in her life until she heard her friends share their stories. And she said that happened to me. My friend is not okay with it. I'm not okay with it, either. And that's what elicited all these repressed emotions around the incidents. So, that's what I hope to do is just by broadcasting a little bit about what I've been through, maybe it's something that all women have been through, I mean, there's some commonality and no matter gender, any types of separation or even like identification. And so, just I think it's just the overall human experience.

Candice Wu 34:43
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And it just also releases more shame, and more hiding from, for everyone because when we are open like that we can identify in each other, and we can see ourselves in the other person and connect in a different way. So, I think that's very powerful.

Aleta Cai 35:04
Yeah, it's true. Connecting is so important.

Candice Wu 35:08
Yeah, I think it's so wonderful where you are in your life. And I wonder what kinds of struggles you're having now, what challenges are, what things are you tussling with?

Aleta Cai 35:20
Currently, I would say, I come up against confusion a lot. Because of the fact that I feel like I'm occupying such a space where I can be very many different things, and it's up to me, it's not a template that's been created before. So, it's really up to me to pull in the pieces and make decisions. And that feels a little bit overwhelming. I know that there are a lot of studies out there that say choice can be quite stressful. And yeah,

Candice Wu 35:53
Freedom can be really scary.

Aleta Cai 35:55
Yes. And yeah, constantly sorting through what your choices are, and weighing the options and trying to project into the future is just very draining and hard. But it's where our rational minds like to be. So, I come up against that a lot. I would say because I could build my healing practice, or practices in a different direction, move more towards that, or I could move more towards BDSM. And it's a constant kind of push-pull between where I want to go and where I want to invest my energy. And then on another level, I think that we all just come across life, I struggle with my family, I struggle with, you know, living in New York, it's not easy. And I struggle with knowing just in situations how to be sometimes or what it is that I want out of a relationship, or do I want a relationship at all in any sort of like, platonic romantic ways. I really just think that it's simple, uncomplicated, and I think I think we're all going to a struggle at all different times. But I guess it's what you make of it.

Candice Wu 37:06
Absolutely. I think so. And especially when we're at different parts of our lives, it's like things unlock at different points in our lives. And then different parts of us are revealed, and different struggles come with that, or different parts of us are trying to come to the surface to be known and that brings its whole, anything that's blocking it or anything that gets in the way. So, I can definitely relate to that.

Aleta Cai 37:33
Yeah.

Candice Wu 37:34
And the confusion. Yeah, I mean, when you come to, at least it sounds like from where, from what I'm hearing from you, it sounds like you've attained a level of freedom in yourself. And when you do that, all those choices can be opened up. And so, I can imagine it's not easy to know, where you want to go next, or what's exactly, right?

Aleta Cai 37:57
Yes, exactly. I'm constantly checking the motor underlying that decision making, if it's coming from fear, if it's coming from overthinking with the rational mind, or if it's a purely intuitive choice, which I feel like intuition, like these irrational choices sometimes can be disguised as just impulsive behaviors that may not serve you. So, it's just constantly going between all those like, is this the right choice is this because I think that you'd mentioned earlier the idea of the unlived life. And with that I really just felt like sometimes when I'm making choices for breaking out of resistance and living this undetermined, and also very freeing, beautiful life can sometimes be making an irresponsible decision, are you at least I think that sometimes when I'm making a decision, maybe it's coming from being irresponsible, or maybe it's escapism from my present reality. So, I think it's about being very, very clear about how you're making these choices. And using both the rational and the intuitive to make that decision.

Candice Wu 39:11
Hmm, absolutely. Especially that part about that some choices we think are intuitive, or maybe as you said, irrational can be disguised from the impulse that it actually is, that really touches me somewhere.

Candice Wu 39:29
So what delights you in your life right now Aleta?

Aleta Cai 39:34
What delights me, I would say most recently, I had a bit of a heartbreaking moment. And that just kind of opened me up. Like it just opened my heart to just connecting with people and in so many different situations. And this happened when I was in LA. I saw my father after a year and a half. And it was just not how I want it to be. I think that I romanticize change and other people because I change a lot. I'm constantly trying to grow. So, I think well, maybe other people in my life have changed, too. But sometimes that's not the case.

Aleta Cai 40:14
And when that happened, it was like every opportunity I had, I would talk to someone and engage and have a conversation, understand what their point of view is, what their background is. And it could be the most superficial conversation, you just talk about what food you ate that day. But yet, I feel like there's still, it's not even about what you're saying. It's that you're being present. And you are understanding from this person's point of view that you will never see again.

Aleta Cai 40:41
That's really what I've been finding really fulfilling, especially New York City, I feel like the city can impale you with the energy or at least like be so overwhelming that it closes you off to these insignificant or seemingly insignificant ways of connecting with other people. And I do feel like the more that we can just be in it and have these open conversations to the point where we're not being overwhelmed or drained by them. It can really bring a lot of spark into our lives. And the more I do that, the happier I am, because I'm truly embracing all these moments that I have

Candice Wu 41:17
I love that, like the little moments and bringing them more attention and love.

Aleta Cai 41:23
Yeah, I mean, I'm grateful to be able to have any of these conversations. I'm grateful to have a perspective or to have experiences or to even have a favorite food from today or you know, these like little thing.

Candice Wu 41:37
I know the little things just seem even to me more increasingly important.

Aleta Cai 41:42
Yes, definitely, I mean, the larger things are all just an accumulation of these smaller things anyway, right.

Candice Wu 41:49
Right. Well, I have two more topics that I'm interested in talking about. And I just want to know if fill in, if you in want to talk about these. One is about sensuality and pleasure and permission, and the other is about self-love, and self-hatred.

Aleta Cai 42:10
Definitely. I mean, these are themes that are very prominent right now and my exploration, I would say that was sensuality and sexuality, and how it relates to my personal evolution. When I started domming, I don't think I had a very healthy relationship with my sexuality at all because I feel like this culture and maybe even the age group that I'm in, promotes this almost like free, seeming way of relating to each other and hookup culture. But meanwhile, it's actually very vacuous at its core. And it's about not really connecting.

Aleta Cai 42:44
And I think I had to work through a lot of shame relating to my sexuality through domming because at first, I felt because it was so sexual, I felt really ashamed of what I was doing. Because in my family and in my culture, and my upbringing, that was not okay. So, that took a lot of like confronting what it was that I was holding on to unconsciously in relationship to my sexuality. And I did hold on to consciously binaries of what women could be and how they could relate to their sexuality and a very traditional Chinese culture, within the very oppressive and I didn't even come to realize how separated I was from my sexuality and how scared I was.

Aleta Cai 43:30
And after my spiritual awakening, what I also did find was in a lot of these, I guess, transcendental, be maybe it's not even under this umbrella, but a lot of the bypassing material or education, when it comes to spirituality is about bypassing out of sexuality. It's like sexuality is wrong, we're not going to talk about it in this circle. And how do we like eliminate that, we don't want to have these basic human needs. So, that, too, was very separating from my sensuality and my sexuality.

Aleta Cai 44:04
So, later, this happened within the last two years, I found Tantra. I found ways of connecting to my own sexuality in a different way, and releasing a lot of the stagnant energy in my sacral didn't realize how much pain and anger is held there. And that I think, was my first kind of sexual education in a very spiritual way, and all-encompassing way. From that point on, after releasing a lot of those blocks, I just felt much more sensual and I almost feel like I gave myself permission to be that. I used to think that if you gave yourself permission to be sexual, it just meant that you were having sex with everyone. It's not that at all, I feel like that was a misconception I have, and maybe I had, and maybe some people share that too.

Aleta Cai 44:54
It's about as I found, power over power that comes from your sexuality is being very contained and very grounded and very accepting of the fact that you are a sexual being as a human being, and that it's okay to have urges, and it's okay to have sex with the right partners. And to know what your boundaries are, what your limits are, and how much you need in terms of intimacy, or maybe not at all. And what's really transformed is that I feel much more secure and much more safe in my body, which I didn't, before, I used to feel like, the way maybe handled my sexual energy was very much displacing it, it was a sense of like, I'm not in control of my sexuality, and I'm repressing my urges. And that really attracted to men who elicited discomfort in me, because they were maybe seemed really creepy or lecherous, because they were sniffing out that energy unconsciously, and it came off for them, like, I'm going to control your sexual energy. That was the match that I was having. So, yeah, so now it's much more like.

Candice Wu 46:04
That makes a lot of sense.

Aleta Cai 46:05
Yeah. Now, it's much more just like people who are just grounded and connected to their sexuality. I'm matching with those people. So, it's just I think it changes everything. It makes you I think, more creative, too, if you're open to your sexual energy.

Candice Wu 46:21
Absolutely. I think it's one and the same and, and that permission to have pleasure seems equated to permission to have desire, and to, to have what you want in life. And if it's coming from that clear place, not of resistance, not of like fighting against part of yourself that is natural. It can be so powerful.

Aleta Cai 46:47
I agree. And what I learned, that was key in my own healing was that for a lot of women, and just generally, but especially women are body sometimes may not feel safe and pleasure, because we're taught, oh, this is wrong, or there's some sort of unconscious programming that says that. And so, as you orient your body to feeling safe with pleasure, and associating it with good pleasure and not just escapist pleasure. I do feel like this instinct gets displaced in unhealthy ways of self-medicating or getting that quick fix, which can actually be self-sabotaging. But by tapping in and connecting to a healthy version of pleasure, you're then creating it unconsciously and in your body, that it's okay to pursue that. So, then I do feel since I've been on that path, opportunities, opening up and work, in friendships that are just generally more pleasurable, because I feel okay with it. I'm allowing it, life is pleasurable, I feel if we allow it to be.

Candice Wu 47:51
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. And it's, it feels like an underlying thread of worthiness, too, that you're worthy of it, and you're worthy of the pleasurable experiences that are coming your way. And that life, I don't know if I'd say life is meant to be pleasurable, because I can't say that for everyone. But for me, it feels like coming to the place in my life where it's meant to be pleasurable.

Aleta Cai 48:15
Yeah, I agree. I feel like there's also this struggle with that, I think in the collective unconscious, it's like, not only like, how much do I deserve to have this pleasurable, but what is deemed, I guess, okay. Like, I feel like sometimes I came up with guilt when I was this pleasurable experience. Why do I get that? Why is it that other people don't? Or, you know, there's, I guess it is tied into self-worth. But at the same time, I do feel like most people can find some sense of joy or pleasure in their day to day, I mean, sometimes I'm so just happy that I have like a piece of chocolate. And that's pleasurable and itself, I think it's really about like, understanding that pleasure may not come with expectations, and that just something so small can be so pleasurable, and everyone has access to that innate state.

Candice Wu 49:07
Oh, absolutely. And you're bringing up this idea of why do I get this pleasure, and someone else might not in that guilt, or maybe even shame, and that's something I've worked through myself. And I wondered, for you, especially you brought up your ancestry and your family and your culture.

Candice Wu 49:27
This, this is something that's not sexual related, but it's definitely sensuality and pleasure. I was eating crab legs, with this partner, ex of mine, and I just started crying while eating it, because I was like, my grandparents would never buy these for themselves, they would never spend the money, they would never feel like they would be worthy of it. Why do I get to be enjoying this? When they can't, and I don't think it's that they can't, it's just that they make choices differently. But what that came from, for me was this feeling actually of love, love for my family, and loyalty. And the way that it showed up was, if I don't have pleasure, too, I'll be loyal to them. And I'll love them.

Aleta Cai 50:17
Wow.

Candice Wu 50:19
And so when that came through, it was like, Oh, that's just not the way to love, that's not loving. I mean, it is, you know, in a backward way, but there's a new way to love. And that was an old way. And I can love them and have pleasure. And they can have it, too, If they choose. They may be in a different situation but some people perhaps can't choose that. But at least my loving can be more pure and clean now.

Candice Wu 50:47
So, I wonder for you how your ancestry comes into sensuality and sex and pleasure. And you'd mentioned some of the belief sets that you'd have you had worked through? Yeah. Wow. I mean, I'm also Chinese. So, I, I don't doesn't mean we have had similar experiences. But I did wonder, you know, what, what the experience of your ancestry brings to this conversation?

Aleta Cai 51:17
Definitely. Well, I do feel like there's underlying cultural misogyny that I've come up against. And that comes into form with this basic underlying philosophy of Neo Confucianism, where the idea before, at least from my understanding in China was, women are not valuable or as not as valuable as men. And then women were then, you saw this happen in orphanages where there are just lots of little girls that were discarded because of the one-child law, because everyone wanted a boy, and how women kind of their only hope for a better life would just be to marry off into a family and she became their property.

Aleta Cai 51:59
And being, bringing Neo Confucianism, I believe that was this underlying feeling, or this like program, which made me feel like my body, my vessel was owed to men. So, I found this happened not only sexually where I was just so like, and this is I feel like collective too, because of porn and the way that it's distributed and, and shot where it's really about worshiping the phallus, like, male pleasure is predominant. So, I felt kind of without realizing that my, it wasn't about my needs, I was not in touch with myself. I think I completely dissociated in sex when I was younger, and I couldn't get past the shame, and I couldn't get passed, making it about the other person completely and making sure that they were feeling pleasured.

Aleta Cai 52:47
And I also saw this happen energetically to where I was running my partner's energy through my body. And that always felt weird because I didn't want to, I wanted to be in my own experience, I just didn't realize that it was this unconscious piece that may have been cultural, that I felt like my body was owed, that my body was like somebody else's property in a way.

Aleta Cai 53:11
And I came up against also like my mother, she brought me up in a very traditional Chinese home, where she and my father, they had only slept with each other. And they were married when they did that, and there was a lot of shaming about dating or exploring their sexuality was just like a, why would you ever do that kind of thing. We never talked about sex ever in the household. So, when I started to kind of assimilate a little more and start to become, you know, I started to be a little more open with the way that I relate it to men, I do feel like I experienced quite a lot of judgment from my mother. And that hurt. I think, just when you get disapproval from parents, it can be really, it can feel life threatening sometimes because you relied on getting their validation or being part of the in-group to be able to, as you said earlier, express your love to fit in, to be taken care of as a child. So, yeah, I think that it really broke me down. It disconnected me from my sexuality, from my needs, and it's an ever-growing process. But the more I'm in touch, the better my life is.

Candice Wu 54:19
Yeah. Wow. Thanks for sharing that. Socially and was self-love?

Aleta Cai 54:24
Sure!

Candice Wu 54:25
Any thoughts about that today?

Aleta Cai 54:26
Self-love? Yeah, I've actually was thinking quite a lot about this today. I would say. So, I recently had a client who we did a little practice where we worked on self-love, giving herself some assurance and connecting to her inner self. And she had a lot of resistance to it. I saw a clairvoyant image, it was almost like a little hole inside of a tree that was in her heart center. It was his idea where it was like this little hole that wouldn't receive, you know, it's like rooted and really strong and beautiful, but she had trouble receiving love from herself because she was taught to hate herself.

Candice Wu 55:07
Oh, yeah.

Aleta Cai 55:08
And what I told her, yeah, which I feel like is a common thing. I feel like, for anyone, we're always coming up against that harsh inner critic, and reasons why we're not good enough. That's just the way that our culture I feel our society is built on just like creating these voids and making people feel not good enough. So, that will buy things and self medicate. So.

Candice Wu 55:31
Yeah.

Aleta Cai 55:32
Yeah, yeah. And what I really found was that, sometimes even because I've worked so much on self-love, what happens is then, we can, if we're like very much in, I'm very much in my third, third eye, so, it's like a lot of mental activity, I will sometimes think that I love myself, when my still my programming, unconsciously, is just repressing that inner critic where I don't feel good about myself. So, I think that's really the conflict that some people can run into when it comes to developing a better protocol for self-love is that it's, maybe we're bypassing or suppressing that part. That's still just like the ego trying to monitor and trying to criticize and trying to judge ourselves.

Aleta Cai 56:19
So, what I found through this client was that no, actually, the pure self is the one that knows how to love, the pure self when we're born.

Candice Wu 56:26
Mmm, yeah.

Aleta Cai 56:27
Yeah, I feel like as a baby, you're hardwired to be such a loving creature, because how else are you going to receive care? If you're not bonding, because love is bonding. And so it's just a natural way of being. So, it's not about, for her, like, she felt like she had to force herself to love herself, or like bypasses part. No, it's really just clearing the clutter of what it is these programs are and realizing that these are just programs, they're not your real self. And as long as you start moving those pieces out, you're also moving out the resistance to the self-love, because that's at the very bottom of all of this.

Aleta Cai 57:03
So, I think that the solution, I used to think that self-love was weirdly outside of me that it was something that I had to grab and like pull into my body. But really, it's something that's already core, and it's just clearing, that needs to happen. And then being more accepting at the same time, I do feel like there's a balance, because I do feel like being hard on myself and not being self loving or accepting has driven me in many ways to achieve I do feel like when we're really hungry for achievements constantly, it's maybe still coming from a place of I'm not enough, or for some people, not for everyone, for me definitely.

Candice Wu 57:46
Right.

Aleta Cai 57:47
And by doing that, I just I started to realize that it's part of knowing what motivates you. And, and knowing and I don't want to care what the think. But I think, the bottom line is, if your achievement focus, you do care on some level what other people think. And that can be useful, too, you can decide not to take it in, but still, use that as a way to sell a way to like kind of monitor where you are in your life and how you're kind of positioning and achieving things. And that may be also motivating. So, I do find it kind of a balance, because I don't want to be the person who is just so accepting that I don't feel like I need to do anything at all. Okay, right?

Candice Wu 58:30
Right. Right. Right. That's beautifully said.

Aleta Cai 58:35
Yeah, thank you. Um, so I think it's always fine tuning, always going back and reevaluating where you are and how you want to feel, and giving yourself permission to feel good about yourself, and allowing that I just kind of jump over feeling good about myself. When I've achieved something, I just go to the next thing. But that's being very, very harsh on myself and I need to kind of move that a little bit further on the spectrum towards being a little softer and gentler, and kinder with myself.

Candice Wu 59:05
Yeah, and like letting ourselves enjoy the moment of celebration and pleasure and reward, and not skipping it.

Aleta Cai 59:14
Definitely!

Candice Wu 59:15
It's like sending a message to ourselves that we're allowed to feel that

Aleta Cai 59:18
Yeah.

Candice Wu 59:19
And then we're allowed to feel it in the real moment, real time.

Aleta Cai 59:21
Yes. And this also really ties back into BDSM. It just occurred to me that there's this, I feel the masochistic urge and many people, at least in my experiences in the dungeon, most people they may not have identified as a masochist, but I do feel like there is an undercurrent of masochism. I think it shows up in just the way that we live our lives. I mean, athletes, people say that athletes or masochist because you're pushing your body to the point of pain. I feel like anyone else.

Candice Wu 59:51
Yes.

Aleta Cai 59:51
Yeah, who trains for endurance in any different field or, or puts themselves through very rigorous programs, you must on some level identify with the pain or love it to be able to get through to the next side, because how else are you going to do it? So, I do think that's intrinsic to the human condition is that yes, there's bottom line, a little bit of masochism, maybe a little bit of like, flogging yourself constantly, and maybe a little bit of knowledge, right, or deprivation being like, I deserve that pleasure. And that's just I think it's just all core, it comes back into kinkiness into our primal nature, into our experience of life. I don't want to be the person who gives that up, and doesn't like, you know, hit myself when I'm wrong, right? I mean, I don't, but I punish myself for doing something wrong. But I know that maybe I am hardwired to be a little masochistic as maybe most people are.

Candice Wu 1:00:46
Yeah, I'm laughing because it took me years to realize how masochistic, I was…

Aleta Cai 1:00:52
Really?

Candice Wu 1:00:52
to myself. Yes. And, and, and, okay. Speaking of things being disguised, it was disguised in the form of growth And disguised in the form of like, I guess, quote and quote, more self-love. But it was driven by not enough, or can I prove that I am strong. And it's, what I did for so long, and there's still pieces working out and I can, I can catch myself doing it some times where I go towards a hard experience, something that's like, very intense, or in some in a lifetime, unnecessarily intense for me, because I don't, in a way, there are some experiences that I need to just walk away from, that I haven't learned the walking away from energy or action. And so, I'll just keep going into it and into it in into it, like, intense process groups that are discussing power and authority and leadership, with race, ethnicity, and difference.

Candice Wu 1:02:00
And these are just so such intense experiences, or my most recent experience of being in Ireland, where I did an exchange with this woman, and I didn't know a thing about her, really, and I stayed with her family and in her home. I knew I was walking in a bit blind. And when I got there, it was just an incredibly harsh environment all around, like inner personally, weather-wise, space-wise. The learning with the horses that I was meant to learn there, that was also challenging.

Candice Wu 1:02:39
And without going into all the details, it took me two and a half weeks to realize this was way too harsh of an environment for me to actually learn in a good way. And I think it was just my masochistic side coming out again, and thinking I need to endure something hard in order to learn, I need to endure something to show my grit. And I don't. So, I think what you're bringing up is so important, like there's this fine balance and almost like a deep awareness of what is it that is happening? And is it a pattern, and what all these ways of our being are important at different times. And when have we overused one versus the other. And we're self-love doesn't just mean acceptance all the time of, of not doing anything or acceptance of anything. But sometimes self-love means to say no or to move away from something you feel an impulse to do, or just to use every tool we've got. What do you think about that?

Aleta Cai 1:03:39
Absolutely. I'm thinking, I'm thinking, yes, it's a gradient. And I do find that is based on what you shared in your experience. That part of the masochism for because I also share that I've put myself through very enduring acts and experiences knowing that maybe I can take it, maybe I can take it, maybe there's something to be learned. And I often do find that even though I may be really burnt out or drained, there is something valuable in that because it helps you recalibrate where your boundaries are, as you're saying, what shade or which, which compartment or which, like what the balances and on the spectrum of your personality, what works for you.

Aleta Cai 1:04:22
I do feel like when we are looking for hardships, again, tying in masochism, or going for that I do feel like the struggle is needed to find resilience. I do find that many of the times when I have had pain in my life, I've learned so much more than if I were just having this really, really lovely experience that's no in no way painful or disappointing. And so a lot of times I, too, I'm drawn to situations that may be a little difficult or really difficult. And through that, I find that we can see the gifts a lot, a lot clearer. So, I think there's a reason why we are programmed the way we are when I do find that even with these things like if we are, if we do accept the premise that people are programmed to be masochistic by nature, and that's something that's driving us in certain situations, then there must also be a part of us that experiences pleasure through that, too, because that's ultimately what masochism is, you find pleasure and pain?

Candice Wu 1:05:24
Yes, yes. I think that makes a lot of sense and the desire underneath the masochism to grow or to learn something new, or reveal something, or recalibrate a new boundary, as you said, it's this constant push-pull between the balance of where you are, and then the pushing into something uncomfortable that gets us to a new place or a new expansion. So, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Aleta Cai 1:05:50
Yeah, I just recently came across this really beautiful story about a butterfly and how the butterfly needs that struggle of emergence to be able to become a butterfly. And if it's short-circuited, then the butterfly will die. And so, that really helps me see a lot of this in a new perspective that a lot of this transformational process is about the struggle of emergence. That's what allows us to be who we are.

Candice Wu 1:06:19
Wow! Beautiful. Thank you so much, Aleta, I really enjoyed this conversation. And I learned a lot and we dug into some really interesting topics. Is there anything else you want to share today?

Aleta Cai 1:06:34
Nothing that comes to mind. I really, really enjoyed this, too, thank you.

Candice Wu 1:06:39
Thank you. So, you have an audience gift for people listening. Is that right?

Aleta Cai 1:06:45
Hmm. I do. I decided to offer 10% off for any of my vanilla healing services. So, these are not my in-person BDSM sessions. But these are ones that are remote and you can book those online through my website at EletaCai.com/booking.

Candice Wu 1:07:03
Excellent. That sounds really exciting for anyone who's interested. Thank you so much.

Aleta Cai 1:07:10
Thank you. It was a pleasure to speak with you today.

Candice Wu 1:07:13
Same with you. Take care.

Aleta Cai 1:07:15
You, too. Bye, Candice.

Candice Wu 1:07:18
Thank you so much for joining us today. I had so much fun with this conversation. And I hope that this has also inspired you or you found parts of yourself within this conversation to identify with and that it inspires you on your continual journey of healing and loving yourself.

Candice Wu 1:07:37
You can find Aleta at her website AletaCai.com, as she had mentioned, it's also going to be linked in the show notes, as well as her Twitter, which is @AletaCai. Be sure to check out her remote healing work as well as mentioned this podcast for that 10% if you're interested, and tune in later this week for an experience that is led and guided by her that you can use to practice and deepen in your own understanding of yourself and transformation.

Candice Wu 1:08:09
I want to thank you all for listening and being with me on this journey of this podcast. It's been about a year since this began. And so this is the Embody Podcast's birthday, I can't remember which day started. I'm not that great with birthdays. But only just a couple of weeks ago, we had Chinese New Year and the seventh day of Chinese New Year is everybody's birthday, which I think is around the day of the podcast's birthday. So, thank you all for being here. Even if you weren't here from the beginning or if you've bounced in and out. It's been a really beautiful journey. And I've loved all the conversations that I've been able to have with different people on the show as well as all of you that are reached out to me, share your experiences. It's just so delightful when I opened my email and I get a note from either someone I know or a perfect stranger that's been listening in and these connections really make this journey a lot of fun and very rewarding. Thank you.

Candice Wu 1:09:20
Before you go, I'd love to invite you to sign up for my bi-monthly newsletter. This will inform you of upcoming retreats with me, workshops, other courses, and classes online, as well as self-love notes. These are tips every couple of weeks that I send out that offer you a way to heal, a tip or a technique that can support you along your journey. If you'd like to sign up you can find it at CandiceWu.com/embody. And with that, we will end this week's podcast. I look forward to seeing you next time on the Embody Podcast.