Charmayne Kilcup on Self-Forgiveness and Choosing Ourselves — EP71

Candice Wu 0:00

So excited for this episode because it’s with my personal healer and spiritual coach, Charmayne Kilcup. And this episode, we talked about the magic of her healing work, her spiritual emergency and how this led to her journey of self-forgiveness and worthiness. She also talks about the importance of self-forgiveness and how to use it in order to heal.

Candice Wu 0:23

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, embodied healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:37

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist, sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 0:58

Hello, and welcome to back to the show, it’s great to have you here. It is heading into spring, it’s crazy in April, in Michigan, and in Chicago. We still have snow at least two times, and the month is not over yet. But it’s been a really interesting transition and at this cusp of shifting from the cool weather over to spring weather, I have decided to do a cleanse. I’d like to do that seasonally, especially from winter to spring to just let my body release what it needs to release, all the incubation that’s happened over the winter and all the things that have been working itself on the inside, in my heart and my spirit and in my body. It’s good to release that for the spring where it’s warmer and things are ready to blossom and to make a space for what’s coming, what’s growing.

Candice Wu 1:55

We encourage you to do the same thing and if you’re interested, there’s an ally with death experiential, which is a visualization to connect with the energy of death so that you can tune into what needs to go, what needs to release or end in your life, in your psyche and your physical, and outer world as well as your inner world to give you the shiny feeling of inspiration and purpose in life, as well as help you move forward into your abundance and growth for this next season.

Candice Wu 2:30

This experiential is, right now, an online guided format where you are given prompts online and you can do this at your own pace, and then once you hit submit, the responses will be sent back to you within 24 hours. I’ve just recorded the audio version for that, so, if you do end up buying this experience right now, I’ll also send you the audio when that’s complete. If this feels inspiring to you jump on my website and take a look at CandiceWu.com/death. I love to do this at least once a year if not twice or three times, so, it’s a process that helps me get in touch with what’s going on in my life right now that I want to shift and what do I want to nourish and cultivate.

Candice Wu 3:17

So, with this cleanse, I decided to do a bunch of nourishing and nutrient-rich soups as well as smoothies. The thing is about my body, it’s very Vata. Vata is the Ayurvedic Dosha, that is air and space, and those qualities, those elements of nature are very slowly, movement-oriented, drying, quick, and can make me feel unbalanced if I feel a lot of that energy in me, if I’m having more stress in my life or having some emotions come up and not addressing them, or if I start to kind of tailspin into some of my fears, I can create too much movement in myself, and that can lead to more Vata. And so, because of that, I decided to do a more nourishing cleanse where I’m not fasting or anything like that, and the soups, they’re very warming to counterbalance the cooling effect of Vata. And also smoothies. I like smoothies. I don’t like too much sugar, but I do a lot of vegetables in my smoothies. And it felt a little too cold in the weather to have the smoothies cold. So, I started to heat them up. And actually, they’re surprisingly, really good. I know it sounds weird. But if you’re someone like me with Vata, it’s like cooking your salads is the best thing you can do because it already releases one level of heating that my body has to do on its own and it’s already warming my body.

Candice Wu 5:00

So, that and I’ve been doing some dry brushing, as well as Abhyanga, which is sesame oil massage, with marrow points in the morning, and tongue scraping, oil pulling as well as Basti, which is an enema, couple of times this week, I’ll do that. And so far, I’ve already felt a lot clearer, like my mind just feels, it feels easy to focus. Just funny, as I say that sentence, like, not too focused, but it’s like I almost don’t know how to describe it. It’s so clear, and calm and settled. Right before this cleanse, I was feeling so uninspired with my food and meals and just, I don’t want to cook I don’t have anything interesting to make. And with this cleanse, I decided to not do meat. I do eat meat regularly, it helps ground me. But in this cleanse, I’m not doing meat, I’m doing a little a bit of fish. But I’m doing some bone broth and lots of veggies, little bit of lentils, little bit of tofu. And with this kind of restriction or new framework, I’ve been so creative with creating all sorts of soups, my steamer, and my VitaMix. These two are my best friends right now. And it’s just super easy to steam something up real quick with some garlic or onion and throw it in the Vitamix and create a pureed soup and top it with some salted mushrooms or a little bit of tuna on tap, yum.

Candice Wu 6:35

And with all this, I’m just letting myself slow down and feel into what wants to emerge in me as a cleanse. What wants to be seen and to be more intentional as I come out of this cleanse, feeling how good I feel, doing meditation and yoga, as well every day and giving myself extra space between things. Feels amazing and I want to continue some of those practices as this cleanse is over. So, I wanted to just share that with all of you today and encourage you to do something for yourself as the season shifts, whether that’s intention setting or journaling or doing a cleanse for yourself. If you need any guidance with that, feel free to connect with me or someone who really recommend an Ayurvedic practitioner or someone who can really see into how your constitution is and what you might need right now, or someone who’s very intuitive with the work of food and nutrition.

Candice Wu 7:40

Whatever it is that you do to support you, I encourage you to do it with a lot of loving and gentleness. And as the energy of spring comes forward, it’s more open and outward, it’s more lively and moving. And so, might support you to do a little bit more meditation and grounding to feel like you’re in your body through this transition. There’s a podcast episode that’s coming to mind that I recorded about six months ago, about tuning into the elements of nature. And as the season shifts, if you’re tuning in now to the elements and the temperature, the feel of the air, the taste, even of the minerals that are here, and now where you’re at, the smell of the air, the sweetness sometimes can really almost taste and smell, and hear, and feel the vibration of it all. And to do so helps you sync up with nature and what’s happening now and balance yourself. And that episode CandiceWu.com/nature, and it includes some guided meditations that are from tantric practice as well as somatic experiencing to support you and feeling embodied.

Candice Wu 8:58

So, let’s transition it to connecting with Charmayne here. I’m so happy to have her on the show. Charmayne is somebody I’ve been working with for several years now. She’s my healing coach and spiritual coach, whatever she calls herself, which is pretty much where we begin with talking about the magic of her work, which is very similar to my work. So, a lot of you out there that are working with me might hear these echoes and also reflections in the work of Charmayne and what she talks about here in this podcast. She has been incredibly inspiring to me and taught me the power of forgiving yourself, just using words of forgiveness, to help the entire energy system release what it is that I’ve been judging myself about.

Candice Wu 9:47

The forgiveness statements touch to the root of the belief sets that are happening inside of me and within my paradigm, not just on a mental level, but on the body level and focusing on the judgment forgiving the judgment feels like the key to everything because it’s okay that we have these beliefs, it’s okay that we live out of fear, sometimes, or some beliefs that we’ve inherited or created out of an experience. But what we do is we judge ourselves, and that creates another layer of pain and suffering. And we don’t need that layer so that forgiveness is so beautiful. And what I found though, is that the forgiveness wasn’t moving until I got in touch with my body.

Candice Wu 10:38

And so, the work I did before connecting with Charmayne really helped me to feel in my body and be able to tap into my emotions, and open up all the channels of every single emotion to move through and out so that when we touched on some judgment or belief that it could move really easily. But even so, if I couldn’t feel through an emotion that well in that moment, Charmayne was incredible at working with the body as well and allowing that to open up from such a loving, loving, loving place. So, it’s to her that I credit a lot of my self-loving at this stage in my life, and her energy just suits my whole being.

Candice Wu 11:25

So, before we jump in, I want to just share a little bit more about Charmayne. She is a Ph.D. in Psychology and helps people transform trauma, self-judgment, and pain into joy, ease and loving, and she’s trained as a counselor, psychologist, and energy worker, and she’s found that self-forgiveness and self-love are the keys to healing that most modalities are missing. For her, they were game changers that helped her transform in eating disorder, depression, and anxiety into a life of joy and delight. And since the time she’s dedicated her career to helping people learn how to use self-forgiveness to transform the negativity that’s in their lives. She has a private practice and is the co-founder of the Institute of Spiritual Coaching, which trains people to use self-love and self-forgiveness in their private practices. You can tune into also her free gift of a meditation and a self-love quiz at her website. CharmayneKilcup.com/self-love-quiz. So, it’s with great honor and pleasure to introduce Charmayne to the show.

Candice Wu 12:38

Charmayne Kilcup, it is so fantastic to have you on the show today.

Charmayne Kilcup 12:42

Thank you, Candice! I always love talking to you. So happy to be here.

Candice Wu 12:47

Wonderful! I just get so soothed by your voice. I want to introduce you today. You are a spiritual coach and you’re not just any. You are my healer and spiritual coach and I started to get a little nervous. I was thinking, Oh, man, Charmayne is coming on the show. And then I thought, you know what, she’s the most loving, spacious, expansive being I know. So, welcome.

Charmayne Kilcup 13:15

Thank you. Happy to be here. Truly.

Candice Wu 13:19

It has been amazing to work with you. It’s been about two years, I think. And …

Charmayne Kilcup 13:25

Gosh, I think it’s been longer.

Candice Wu 13:26

Has it. You’re, you’re probably right.

Charmayne Kilcup 13:28

It’s been a while. Yes, yes.

Candice Wu 13:29

You remember things sometimes that I’m like: “Oh, yeah.”

Candice Wu 13:33

Yeah, you’re a spiritual coach. And you were trained as a psychologist and a counselor and an energy worker and want to just open up the space for you to share from your perspective, who you are and where you are on your journey, right now.

Charmayne Kilcup 13:50

Okay. It’s always tough for me to answer truthfully. So, professionally, yes. I call myself a spiritual coach, because I haven’t found a better term for, I wish there was a better way to describe, just doing healing work.

Candice Wu 14:04

Yeah, I know.

Charmayne Kilcup 14:06

Doing profound healing work.

Candice Wu 14:07

Yeah, I’m constantly struggling with that, too. It’s a sort of like boxing you into this title?

Charmayne Kilcup 14:14

Yes. And it’s so hard to describe the work I think you and I both do. I mean, it’s a nothing short of magic, is kind of what…

Candice Wu 14:25

That should be the title.

Charmayne Kilcup 14:27

It’s true. I mean I set with a client, and I don’t know what’s going to happen. And we just have to wait for it to happen and listen to the intuitive guidance, and listen, for the magic they want to unfold. So, maybe that is a better title. But until spiritual coach, yes, I’ve been doing that for gosh, nearly 15 years now.

Candice Wu 14:50

Wow.

Charmayne Kilcup 14:51

And it started with my own spiritual awakening when I was 23, which pretty much knocked me on my ass, and opened up all of these gifts. And I mean, well, it was a spiritual emergency. It’s a long story, completely through me. But in the process got me on my aligned path of loving this work. So, thankful for in the long run. And what’s alive in my world? Well, I am 33 weeks pregnant.

Candice Wu 15:20

Congratulations.

Charmayne Kilcup 15:22

So that’s very, very alive in my world as I feel a little being kicking my stomach.

Charmayne Kilcup 15:30

So, that’s probably the most thing that is, the biggest thing that is most alive for me and my husband right now is getting ready for this next adventure.

Candice Wu 15:41

Wow, that’s really exciting. What do you do to get ready?

Charmayne Kilcup 15:45

Still a good question.

Candice Wu 15:49

What does the mother do?

Charmayne Kilcup 15:51

I know that’s what I’m trying to figure out. Mentally preparing myself, you know what, has been the most useful thing is my husband and share the same birthday. And we went to Colorado together for our birthday. And I was out in the middle of the woods, middle of nowhere, and the coolest thing happened, and I felt this archetypal energy of this primal, feminine, force enter my body. And I was like, okay, this is what I need to be ready. And it was this force of total alignment, and willingness to just move through what is to come and talk about the birth process, because the rest I know we can handle but that physical process is going to be interesting.

Charmayne Kilcup 16:40

So, that has helped me get ready, the most spontaneous, almost transmission, if you want to call it that, of wow, the archetypal energy of the millions upon millions upon millions of women, billions…

Candice Wu 16:53

Mm-hmm.

Charmayne Kilcup 16:54

Who have gone through this before.

Candice Wu 16:56

Wow.

Charmayne Kilcup 16:57

But so there’s that and then there’s painting the house, so it goes.

Candice Wu 17:03

That’s great. It’s like, of course, it’s like this magical answer. And then the functional parts, too. I appreciate that.

Charmayne Kilcup 17:11

Yeah, buying a new couch…

Candice Wu 17:12

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 17:13

…into my house…

Candice Wu 17:14

Like the reality.

Charmayne Kilcup 17:15

….and resting on the couch.

Candice Wu 17:16

Yeah. Well, I just so appreciate that to your response. Because I think a lot of mothers, and people just in general trying to prepare for something, are looking at all these more concrete things and lime thinking about how we can prepare. And what you shared was just such a, an opening into this energy that is existed and is and it runs through you. And just synced up with you here in this experience. It’s beautiful.

Charmayne Kilcup 17:44

Yes. Yeah. Kind of an initiation? For sure.

Candice Wu 17:47

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 17:48

Grateful for it. Because I was very, very scared until that initiation I’ll call it happened. So, now much calmer, just getting ready.

Candice Wu 17:58

Wow, yeah. Well, I’ve been reading your book, Heal Your Heart: How to Awaken Your Soul with Self-Forgiveness, and I’m really enjoying it. And you said it was a long story, your spiritual emergence, and emergency.

Charmayne Kilcup 18:14

Yes.

Candice Wu 18:15

Is there anything you want to share about it? I know you do share it in your book?

Charmayne Kilcup 18:18

Well, I can share that, let’s see what I want to share about that. Yes, it was when that happens one thing easily when I was, I think I was 23 years old when it started. And I had never, ever experienced anything like that. But in that experience, I heard my soul begin talking to me. And what the most interesting thing to me about that experience is that I was in meditation, I had been really, really stressed from school and work. And went to the same place in Colorado, actually, where I had this initiation coming, oh, I guess is powerful to me.

Candice Wu 18:54

Oh, Wow! Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 18:55

And I was there all alone. And in meditation, and spontaneously, my soul begins speaking to me. And what I still find fascinating is in the experience of it, it was pure, calm, peace, surrender, love, it was the most gentle experience and feeling I’ve ever had.

Candice Wu 19:16

Wow.

Charmayne Kilcup 19:17

And in this process, my soul was kind of talking to me about awakening, and enlightenment, and it showed me two doors. And so you know, you’re here to do this. Now you get to pick how you do this, you can walk through door A on the left here, and you’re going to walk through and feel instant enlightenment. Or you can do this the slow way, door B, you could have a normal life and do this slowly. And, you know, have a husband and a family and do all of these things. And I wasn’t ready for door A at all because I had a sense that if I walk through that door, I might die. I don’t know if that’s true or not, but the feeling was so intense, that it was Iike my body can’t handle this.

Charmayne Kilcup 20:03

I can’t survive this, it’s so immense, I can feel it on the other side. I’m not sure I can do this. So, I very hastily chose door B. And then meditation ended, the voice kind of went away, still peaceful and calm. And it wasn’t until I opened my eyes. And I could feel the minute my mind clicked into, whoa, what was that? Whoa, that was not normal. We can’t make sense of this, I could feel the mind clicking to hear. And that’s when I went into a panic and a spiritual emergency. So, what I still find fascinating is the experience itself was immensely beautiful. But it was when the mind took over that it went into emergency.

Candice Wu 20:46

Fascinating.

Charmayne Kilcup 20:47

So, I just find that a really clear example of the power of the mind. And how it tries I could feel it was like a 1000 spinning years in my head trying to make sense of what just happened. And I couldn’t, right? This experience was so transcendental.

Candice Wu 21:03

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 21:04

The mind can’t make sense of soul. No idea what soul is! God bless it.

Candice Wu 21:11

Right.

Charmayne Kilcup 21:11

No, it tries, but it really doesn’t have any idea. But it was trying really hard. So, that’s still for me is a really useful illustration of how hard we try to do our awakening, our understanding, our connection to spirit through the mind, and how the mind just doesn’t seem to get it. The mindfully really useful in adding good information that helps us get there or keeping us focused or disciplined. But the mind, at least my mind, is inherently a little bit fearful.

Candice Wu 21:44

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 21:44

I have some of these bigger experiences. I don’t know if you’ve experienced that.

Candice Wu 21:48

I have, too, yeah, my, lately, I’ve just been tuning more into just dropping that hole, dropping my attention from the mind and just feeling what happens, feeling my sense of things and usually that pans out much better for me. And I do hear people saying, it’s great to have a balance of mind and heart. I think what you’re talking about is even deeper than that. Is that right?

Charmayne Kilcup 22:15

Yes, definitely. So, what I learned from one of my teachers that there are three energy centers, there’s the lower belly, there are the heart and the mind. So, the mind is still a powerful energy center. It’s just that it’s gone too far. And it’s become the main energy responsible for trying to make sense of our lives. And to help us make sense of healing and spirituality. And it’s just, it’s taken on a job it’s not equipped for. So, it’s an important energy center that does need attention and can do really great things. It’s just that we’re overly tipped into the mind in Western culture. And so we go into monkey mind, when we go into trying to use the mind to do a job that is not meant for, the heart is meant for the belly is meant for the body is meant for. And I think that’s one of the great travesties, I would say in our culture, is that we’re relying so heavily on this poor mind that’s overtaxed, was overburdened, is trying to figure everything out, plus, pay our bills and get to the next restaurant or the next appointment. And make sure there are groceries in the fridge. I mean, these poor minds of ours are just so burdened right now. And, yeah.

Candice Wu 23:29

That was me for sure. Like, I don’t know, 10 years ago, it’s like my mind was trying to do every single kind of task and it absolutely doesn’t digest the emotions. It doesn’t take chance for intuition. No.

Charmayne Kilcup 23:43

It tries. But usually there’s a bottle of fear that it filters through, so, it doesn’t do a great job. And truthfully, my experience and what if this is your experience, too? Is it when I was so living in the mind that way, I couldn’t actually feel much joy.

Candice Wu 24:00

Oh, yeah. It was like a false sense of joy for me. It was like, oh, I thought it was happy. My mind thought it was happy because these are the reasons that we are happy, because I have those …

Charmayne Kilcup 24:11

Interesting

Candice Wu 24:12

But, yeah, but I couldn’t really feel anything. I was pretty numb, yes. So yeah,

Charmayne Kilcup 24:18

I didn’t feel joy until I dropped into my body. I’m guessing that similar for you until actually began feeling the interior of my body, and oh, my gosh, look how good the sun feels on my legs. And look at how good this taste of coffee is my taste buds, so, the body essential experience of being alive, is where I actually found my joy.

Candice Wu 24:41

Yeah. And we have this to experience.

Charmayne Kilcup 24:46

Yes. So, these poor sweet minds, God bless them.

Candice Wu 24:50

Yeah, right.

Charmayne Kilcup 24:52

It’s not their fault.

Candice Wu 24:54

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 24:56

They’ve got too much going on.

Candice Wu 25:00

I want to talk about forgiveness. As I was reading that chapter in your book, it was right, at the kind of like the conversation that was going on in me, because I hear people saying, oh, I forgave them, right? And I have this experience with this relationship that was really hard from what I forgave that person. And I’m left feeling like, oh, I feel that the forgiveness is in me. And that experience of forgiveness is actually me acknowledging myself and loving myself, or what you’ve taught me, which was incredibly powerful when I first learned it from you, the self-forgiveness of the beliefs and the judgment around the beliefs that we hold in ourselves. So, I want to talk about that and just open up that topic of forgiveness. And what comes to you now about forgiveness and self-forgiveness.

Charmayne Kilcup 25:50

Well, this is one of my favorite topics.

Candice Wu 25:52

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 25:52

Seriously, I wrote a whole book about it.

Charmayne Kilcup 25:57

And I have to credit my teacher, Robert Waterman, with teaching me the importance of self-forgiveness, I had no idea, I had no idea how important it was. So, most of us are trained into believing that we’re willing to forgive other people, for things that have been done to us. And it’s so interesting, when I began studying psychology and working with this teacher, Robert Waterman, what I began to see is that forgiving others doesn’t really matter all that much.

Candice Wu 26:26

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 26:27

What matters more is forgiving ourselves. And people often resist the topic of self-forgiveness, because they say, they think, “Well, I didn’t do anything wrong. You know, that person divorced me or betrayed me or abandoned me or hit me or sexually abused me, I was the victim. I didn’t do anything wrong.” Yes, I know, I completely understand. And what’s interesting about these minds of ours is that even when we have been the victim of some kind of challenge, I don’t like that word so I kind of, look for different word, but there isn’t one, we’ve been the person to experience some kind of betrayal, abandonment, abuse, neglect, our brains find a way to judge ourselves for it.

Charmayne Kilcup 27:12

So, that might look like I work a lot with sexual abuse survivors. I love working with that. In every single sexual abuse survivor that I have found, that I have worked with, excuse me, I have found that there is a belief that forms unconsciously that this is my fault, somehow. It is my fault that’s happened to me. So, if a woman is abused in some way, every single time I found a belief, I was asking for it, or it was my fault. And this is the false belief that gets created in the unconscious. And it limits joy, self-esteem, it can create depression, anxiety, all of it robs a person of their life force energy.

Charmayne Kilcup 28:00

And so, with self-forgiveness, we go in and we say, I forgive myself for judging myself for believing that would happen to me, it was my fault. And even I don’t know about you. But even as I say that this is hypothetical, I still get goosebumps. Because it’s just so powerful, to go to that level of self-forgiveness.

Candice Wu 28:19

Absolutely!

Charmayne Kilcup 28:23

And this happens over and over and over with big experiences, small experiences, everything. I’m noticing that happened with me already with pregnancy.

Charmayne Kilcup 28:35

I’m not able to exercise much, because when I do, I threw up. And he was like, you need to get strong, you need to exercise keep yourself healthy, keep the baby healthy. And all of his messaging coming at me of you know, you should be doing this and this and this. And my mind, I can watch it now is internalizing that is, “Oh, I’m doing something wrong already.” I’m not being a great mother already. And these are really insidious federal beliefs that can just shame us anytime we’re feeling shame. It’s because we’ve found a false belief that the culture is trying to put on us isn’t true for us. So, even with things like this, I’ve had to do a tremendous amount of self-forgiveness of, “Okay, well, I forgive myself for judging myself for believing that I’m doing this wrong as a mother.” So, it’s incredibly powerful.

Candice Wu 29:25

Thank goodness, you’re doing that.

Charmayne Kilcup 29:26

Yes, I have to, Thank goodness, I have training in it.

Candice Wu 29:29

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 29:30

And what I have found is that when there is a real experience of abuse, neglect, abandonment, the self-forgiveness often spontaneously leads to forgiveness of others. Not always. And when it doesn’t, I completely trust that, because I’ve worked with clients who’ve experienced some really, really, really traumatic things. And I have no need to push them into forgiveness. I have a desire to help them find self-forgiveness, and that sometimes leads to forgiveness of others often does. But if not, that’s okay, too. Every experience takes us into healing and wholeness. So, that level of release, which is what forgiveness is, will be found at some point for everybody.

Candice Wu 30:16

I appreciate that so much. And I found the same, like profound healing with it. And before I worked with you, I was doing EMDR and a lot of embodied therapies and that helped tremendously for me to be in my body, to feel the joy to feel like I was releasing beliefs sets that I was living from. But when you dropped in that forgiveness piece, it was like, oh, it just clicked. And it for me, touched into the love, not only the love, but the level of responsibility and freedom that comes from that self-forgiveness, it touches into the core of this entire experience connected with belief sets and judgments that just creates this ripple effect outward and completely changes energetically, and frees me of what it is that I thought I was.

Charmayne Kilcup 31:14

Yes, exactly. And that’s, I think why I love self-forgiveness so much more than forgiveness is because self-forgiveness allows ourselves to get free from whatever happened to us, and whatever false beliefs others are bringing us, without needing anything different from our external reality.

Charmayne Kilcup 31:32

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 31:34

So, we don’t need to change what happened.

Candice Wu 31:35

Right.

Charmayne Kilcup 31:36

We want to change what happened, we don’t have to change how people are responding to us or what they’re doing. If we forgive ourselves, or whatever is happening. We’re judging ourselves for even just feeling emotions, that we’re unconsciously judging. Oftentimes, if we’re women, we’re judging our anger, or judging ourselves, we’re feeling sad. So even just I forgive myself for feeling angry about this right now. Hoo! It unlocks the energy and you begin to feel more free. And it’s incredible.

Candice Wu 32:05

It is.

Charmayne Kilcup 32:09

It’s magical!

Candice Wu 32:10

It is!

Charmayne Kilcup 32:11

It’s magical.

Candice Wu 32:12

It helped me get to this place of realizing that, and you say this in your book, like, there’s nothing wrong. And any choice you’ve made, anything you’ve done, there’s nothing wrong with that. And how each thing that we have being or experience that we can have is part of that freedom. We can choose it at any time we can choose a different way of being, and there’s no way of being that deserve shame or unworthiness.

Charmayne Kilcup 32:43

Yes.

Candice Wu 32:43

So beliefs, worthiness in ourselves.

Charmayne Kilcup 32:46

Yes, I have found self-forgiveness to be the antidote to shame and unworthiness.

Candice Wu 32:51

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 32:51

And as a person growing up in this culture, we’re just imprinted with shame and unworthiness. And what I have seen in the hundreds, if not thousands, of our clients, I said at this point, is that the unworthiness we feel, the shame we feel is not even our fault. Not our fault.

Candice Wu 33:11

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 33:12

It’s just a product of growing up in a shame-based culture but it is our responsibility to go in and release and heal and get clear. And in doing so the exciting part is we get free. But we also create more freedom for people around us. Have we pull out of the shame-based culture and say, “No, I’m not going to do that with myself or other people.”

Candice Wu 33:35

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 33:36

We begin to change the culture. And then there’s no need to go into the shame in the same way. So, it’s already happening. There’s …

Candice Wu 33:45

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 33:46

People are being shamed to last for certain things in this new generation, then say, we were the people above us.

Candice Wu 33:54

Yeah, I feel that and I feel that trickle effect of just one person experiencing themselves differently and connecting with others from that place of love and expansion much more. Just reaching out from there.

Charmayne Kilcup 34:09

Yes,

Candice Wu 34:10

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 34:10

Right? I mean, I’m sure you’ve met people who don’t carry shame, in the same way, that most people do.

Candice Wu 34:18

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 34:18

They’re like beacons of light.

Charmayne Kilcup 34:20

Oh yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 34:20

They’re so safe.

Candice Wu 34:21

Absolutely. Well, how did you get in touch with your own shame and unworthiness, beliefs? That’s my guests that you have.

Charmayne Kilcup 34:31

Yeah.

Candice Wu 34:31

Yeah, that’s part of your own gift.

Charmayne Kilcup 34:35

That was part of my spiritual awakening, actually. Was having to do a deep dive into looking at that. And luckily, I found a great master’s program, which really addressed this level. It was lucky to do that. So, the Western College in Santa Fe just changed my life. So, there was support for it. And once I began seeing, oh, wow, look at what happens to us without our knowledge or consent. Has being pro-sensitive products of you know, this world.

Candice Wu 35:03

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 35:04

You just inherit the shame and the sense of unworthiness. I find it to be especially true for sensitive empathic people. We just walk around like little sponges, and if there’s shame, we’re just going to take it.

Candice Wu 35:16

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 35:17

And so once I began seeing what was happening with me, it’s like the light bulbs are going on. And I could see, oh, wow, look at how this is operating for most people most the time. And I began being able to do a deep dive in myself, to look at all of the places I was carrying a shame, and that’s still an ongoing process. But what I have found is it’s the level of unworthiness that keeps us from getting what we truly want. So, I noticed this for myself, one great example was relationships. So, I was my whole entire life, my deepest yearning was to have a really incredible relationship, really know, husband, family, all of that it was this deep, deep yearning that well, first I judge myself for, as it didn’t seem very spiritual or enlightened, to just want to be married to a great guy.

Candice Wu 36:14

Another one of those judgments and beliefs, right?

Charmayne Kilcup 36:17

That was the one I had to work through. So, worked through that, and then began dating a host of men who were not right for me in some way, either emotionally abusive, never physically abusive, I wouldn’t have tolerated that but who were narcissistic, very selfish, and we know runs the whole gamut. And it’s kept happening to me over and over and over again, and finally gotten one relationship and I was head over heels in love with this man and moved to Seattle with him. I thought: “This is it. This is the one and I’m crazy about him.”

And again, I was mistreated. I felt like: “No, I’m really not getting what I think I probably deserve in a relationship. I really am not feeling very valued here. I’m feeling kind of misused or abused, like I’m being taken advantage of.”

And that relationship ended. And it sent me into a deep soul searching. Okay, what’s going on here?

Charmayne Kilcup 37:23

And what I got to uncover was, there was a still a pocket of unworthiness that I felt from being really bullied and shamed as a young kid, actually, what I could see is wow, I was a very chubby kid very late bloomer. And I got so much teasing and bullying for it. And this little young version of me was holding on to unworthiness. And she truly didn’t believe that she was worthy of the kind of guy, adult me, consciously, really wanted. So, I had to go on a really deep dive and looking at all the beliefs that this younger me formed around unworthiness. And I did that, took me. Once I set my mind to it was with me a night, it took months leading up to that.

Candice Wu 38:14

Yeah, I understand that.

Charmayne Kilcup 38:17

And then months later, I got to meet my now husband, who’s the most incredible being who just cherishes me, and I cherish him, and we’re just absolutely madly in love with each other.

Candice Wu 38:28

Beautiful.

Charmayne Kilcup 38:28

But I know it’s only because I had to excavate the part of me that was holding onto beliefs that I wasn’t good enough.

Candice Wu 38:38

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 38:39

So, what I’ve noticed is this unworthiness really tends to operate, especially in terms of our relationships we pull in, and the abundance we pull in.

Candice Wu 38:49

Mmm, yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 38:50

So, that’s been fascinating for me to look at is, okay, this unworthiness thing that we inherit is a big deal, because it can block us from our deepest desires, and our even our soul desires.

Candice Wu 39:04

I’d love for you to talk more about the abundance piece with worthiness. And you had mentioned to me that you’re really interested in women. I think you said calling in their abundance or what did yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 39:20

Having abundance?

Candice Wu 39:20

Yeah, that being in abundant self.

Charmayne Kilcup 39:27

Yes. This is what I also see healers in particular struggle with and spiritual people struggle with. And this has been one of my biggest struggles as well, I mean, to be totally blunt, we have so much conditioning, as highly sensitive spiritual people, to not want material things.

Candice Wu 39:46

Right.

Charmayne Kilcup 39:46

Right, I mean, I work sometimes with past lives. And I know for me, and most people I see who are really old souls, is that we’ve had so many past lives, where we chose to get rid of belongings, get hurt into the church, other people, serve, serve, serve, serve.

Candice Wu 40:05

Yep, yep. And I’m laughing because I’m like, yep, me. Yep. Yeah,

Charmayne Kilcup 40:09

Yes, I know, it’s just about every healer, I know, has this some level.

Candice Wu 40:13

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 40:14

And it’s just the sense of okay to be worthy of God, to be worthy of love or enlightenment, I have to give myself away. I can’t enjoy life, I have to be of service to others. And truthfully, this is one that’s a little bit backward.

Candice Wu 40:33

Hmmm.

Charmayne Kilcup 40:33

And I believe that it was a level of evolution at the time that 400 years ago, 300 years ago, it was important to learn self-discipline. And it was helpful to be of service to others, and get out of the ego. But I’m seeing it work against people who are deeply spiritual and old souls, who are now still living that paradigm and trying to give everything away. And I noticed this in myself, because I just, gosh, was barely surviving, financially. And my heart wanted to serve everybody, every client, everybody who came to me, and I went through a period of really overworking myself and really undercharging and barely getting by. And luckily, things have been clicking into place inside of me, where there’s this inner knowing that says, “Wait, hold on.” This, this is no, this no longer has to be true for me.

Candice Wu 41:34

Yes.

Charmayne Kilcup 41:35

Doesn’t have to be true for other people. And that actually, the spiritual path can lead to greater material wealth, and that’s okay. And it’s okay to enjoy life. And it’s okay to have luxury. And it’s okay to enjoy pleasure. And this sensate experiences, that money can help facilitate.

Candice Wu 41:55

That they both exist together.

Charmayne Kilcup 41:58

Yes. And I find so much resistance to this belief even inside of myself at times other people, this conditioning that we have to serve, serve. It’s so ingrained, especially if we have a lot of earnestness or integrity around who we are, and our spirituality. So, the earnest and wonder, right, and we have an unconscious belief, I will do things right. I’ve got to be poor, here, everything is everything away. We’re really going to go for being poor.

Candice Wu 42:29

Yeah, everything. Right.

Charmayne Kilcup 42:33

So, it’s in a way, a sweet sign of our earnestness and integrity is just no longer true. This is the paradigm we’re operating under. So, what I have seen is, gosh, we actually need more spiritual people and more conscious people and people with integrity and earnestness having more money.

Candice Wu 42:56

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 42:57

That’s how we got to change what’s happening around us is but actually allowing ourselves more means to change things and to even vote with our dollars.

Candice Wu 43:11

Well, I also really appreciate the sense that you’re giving about, this may have been very helpful in the past. And that’s often something I’ve used, like within my ancestry and thinking about the ways of being that have been passed along or that I’ve taken up. But what you’re saying here that maybe it was helpful to be self-disciplined at some point, but now it’s not really serving in the same way. It’s so refreshing. And it’s so helpful to see it all with that kind of love.

Charmayne Kilcup 43:44

Yes.

Candice Wu 43:45

And yes, I’m so with you. And that story you shared, completely resonated with me. And you know that I relate to that as well. And just want to support all healers in their abundance and seeing that they can have all that.

Charmayne Kilcup 44:04

Yes. And all good-hearted people. Yes, I want to support everybody in there.

Candice Wu 44:09

Yes.

Charmayne Kilcup 44:11

If we had more people, like you and me, is really people who want to do a lot of good in the world, to claiming more abundance. Gosh, I mean, a lot of these things we see happening wouldn’t be able to happen in the same way.

Candice Wu 44:26

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 44:28

So, I am very passionate about this now, because I’m seeing how in myself, I kept myself disempowered for so long financially, and the ramifications were, were huge.

Charmayne Kilcup 44:41

And now it’s changing, thank goodness! But it’s like, gosh, I wasted 15 years on just barely getting died, barely enjoying all I wanted to enjoy. And I just don’t want to have, I don’t want others to have to live through that if they don’t have to.

Candice Wu 44:57

Well, and do you think this relates to the word selflessness? I mean, it just sounds exactly like that idea of people very much valuing the idea of selflessness, completely letting go of all self, and I get that there’s different levels of self, like the small ego self, or the mind self. But to completely be selfless, doesn’t make sense anymore, with what you’re saying.

Charmayne Kilcup 45:24

Yes, I, what I have seen is that it’s appropriate for certain individuals and a certain level of awareness. So, people, I’m going to just talk in terms of soul age, young souls coming in who it’s all about them, and they’re learning about themselves, and they’re fiercely independent, and is very ego-centered. I don’t mean that in a judgmental way. It’s what’s supposed to happen.

Candice Wu 45:48

In the development.

Charmayne Kilcup 45:49

They’re men’s evolution,…

Candice Wu 45:50

Mmmm.

Charmayne Kilcup 45:50

….yeah. is to learn to take other people’s perspectives, and see other people’s needs. So, in that case, yes. Learning to be selfless, is a huge act of maturity and evolution. What I’m talking about is mostly people who are old souls, who’ve done this were deeply wise and sensitive and empathic. And we learned that selfless thing, but we took it too far.

Charmayne Kilcup 46:21

We didn’t want to let that one go.

Candice Wu 46:25

Get to the extreme here.

Charmayne Kilcup 46:26

Yes, yes. And we hold on to this one tenaciously because it’s become such an important part of spiritual identity.

Candice Wu 46:36

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 46:36

Who am I if I’m not giving? Oh, I mean that’s a good question. I just felt it. Yeah, and am I worthy if I’m not giving? I mean these are huge questions.

Candice Wu 46:47

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 46:49

And if I’m not giving to be good, or get to God, well, am I okay, just as I am. And that’s when you really have to the worthiness. And that’s a place that scares a lot of people, and myself included. It did for a long time. And you’re displaying your worthiness can claim that you’re here for your own pleasure, your own awakening, can you claim that you’re not here to save the entire world? Can you claim that giving everything away, doesn’t even work and saving the entire world?

Charmayne Kilcup 47:27

So, it’s the next evolution to really realize that, as someone, and I’m sure, your audience or listeners identify, as someone going for true awakening, the selflessness only gets us to a certain point. And then we’ve actually got to choose ourselves, and choose our lives, and choose being alive, and choose pleasure, and choose expansion.

Candice Wu 47:53

I love how you said that.

Charmayne Kilcup 47:56

Yeah, it’s not selfish in the way that we’ve known our to be selfish. It’s actually us choosing ourselves is in service to all, because as we choose ourselves deeply, really take place. As we choose life from a really deep place. We open up a template or path for other people to do the same. And there is no greater service to humanity than that.

Candice Wu 48:26

Absolutely. I mean, even in saying that there’s or maybe, I don’t know, this is something I’m grappling with. So, please challenge me. But it feels almost like even in saying in choosing ourselves, it’s the greatest service to all. It’s a great service to all. That’s like comforting to the part of me that wants to be of service.

Charmayne Kilcup 48:47

Yes.

Candice Wu 48:48

And then there’s another part of me that says, and choosing myself for myself is enough.

Charmayne Kilcup 48:55

Yes. Absolutely, you nailed it. Yeah.

Candice Wu 48:58

And that’s why does it have to fee for the service? But then I got to go back, and I toggle back and forth.

Charmayne Kilcup 49:05

Well, yes, and I speak to that part of us that just so deeply needs to be of service because of these big hearts. We have.

Candice Wu 49:13

Yes, yes, we want to love.

Charmayne Kilcup 49:14

The truth. We want to love doing this for yourself is enough. Absolutely enough. Absolutely. But I find it really hard for people, myself included to just make that leap to, Oh my, I’m just going to do this for me. Yeah, gosh, I mean, it’s been so many lifetimes, yeah, experience doing things for us, that the business itself can’t quite get on board fully with that, for most people I work with.

Candice Wu 49:41

Yeah, I have a good friend who has lived many lifetimes and seems to be right there with it, where she’s able to say no, this is about you and this is your life. And so, it kind of shocks me every time. Like oh, yeah. Like she was like a shake to my system.

Charmayne Kilcup 49:59

She’s clear.

Candice Wu 50:00

Oh, yeah. She’s so clear, right? And it’s a great reminder to me to find my own balance with it. Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 50:08

Good for her.

Candice Wu 50:09

Yeah, I want to go back to victimhood. And you were saying you don’t really like that word. And I just pulled a quote from your book. What happens in our lives, truly is here to serve us. Things don’t happen to us, they happen for us. And later, you say our lives are designed to bring us into greater levels of awareness, freedom, and love. So, when you said you don’t love the word victim, or the idea of victimhood I think, this quote seems to connect with it, things don’t happen to us. Can you speak more about your thoughts about this? Or your feeling of this?

Charmayne Kilcup 50:51

Yes. So, what I have been taught and really explored in my own life and found to be true, is that the places we’re still struggling, in places where we do feel like we’re victims, places that we’re not fully empowered. Those are places that are still uncleared inside of us, that our souls trying, they’re places where our soul is trying to work something else, though.

Charmayne Kilcup 51:17

So, in terms of, for example, one was talking about relationships and myself, I felt like a victim at times, like what is wrong with me? Why am I attracting and guys who are like this? Just seem great and then turn kind of mean or whatever, neglectful, what is going on? I felt “victim”. You know, I’m watching all my friends. Choose guys who are incredible and treat them well. And it was really easy to go into this place, oh, poor me, why can’t I have that?

Candice Wu 51:50

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 51:50

And now looking back, what I can see is, I couldn’t have that until I cleaned and worked with this piece of unworthiness inside of me. And the soul’s goal here was to get me to look at that place of unworthiness, and clear that shame and clear these false beliefs and empower myself at an even deeper level. So, even though I was going through it, I felt really victimized. Like, gosh, everyone’s getting married. And I was quite, it was quite later when I met Walter compared to most the average most people. But what I came to find is that, wow, my soul really wanted me to get this one. And it did and attain that awareness of this place of unworthiness. I was hanging on to changed everything for me. Absolutely everything. And so, it was a piece I had to get, even though I felt like it was unfair at the time. Yeah, the victim place I see is a place where we’re still trying to work something out.

Candice Wu 52:57

Hmmm.

Charmayne Kilcup 52:57

I think we’ll have those places as long as we’re human.

Candice Wu 53:00

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 53:00

It’s part of us.

Candice Wu 53:01

Yes. That’s part of the journey.

Candice Wu 53:04

Yeah. So, I just have a few more questions for you. What are you tussling with right now? What do you challenge with on your journey?

Charmayne Kilcup 53:13

Gosh, so the biggest challenge I am grappling with is how to balance my different passions and becoming a mother, which is I’ve wanted and passionate about that. Maintaining a really fruitful marriage, and doing the work I love. So, there’s a place inside of me that’s in fear about, can I do all of this? Can I do all of this well? So that’s probably my main issue that I’m grappling with is I want to give 100% to all areas of my life. And just the fear I won’t be able to.

Candice Wu 53:54

That’s a real thing. or big things being a Shannon’s. Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 53:59

I don’t have an answer. Yep. But check on a year.

Candice Wu 54:04

Well, I guess I just kind of go back in my mind, to what you said about you being you, is of service to all. And even when you’re made, I don’t know, the thought I had was just even when you’re in your life and being the mother and taking a little time off of working with clients are doing your healing work. That’s already going to be in service.

Charmayne Kilcup 54:29

Yes. It will, and I love my clients. And I love my work.

Candice Wu 54:35

I know you do. We will miss you. For the time you’re away.

Charmayne Kilcup 54:43

This will be interesting.

Candice Wu 54:43

But we have your book, we have your book, too.

Charmayne Kilcup 54:46

That is true, that is true. Actually, I got that out before this happens. But yeah, how the modern woman does it right now?

Candice Wu 54:56

Oh, I know.

Charmayne Kilcup 54:56

Kind of a mystery to me. So even without marriage, and without kids, life was a lot.

Charmayne Kilcup 55:04

Those are on table two, it’s like gosh, how do people do this? So…

Candice Wu 55:09

Yeah, yeah, let me know in a year.

Charmayne Kilcup 55:11

I will!

Candice Wu 55:12

I don’t know.

Charmayne Kilcup 55:12

I have more wisdom about this in a year or two.

Candice Wu 55:16

That’s the question I’ve had to, like, how if I want kids and if I choose to what do I do with all the other parts of my life that already take up all the time?

Charmayne Kilcup 55:28

Yes.

Candice Wu 55:29

And enjoy that.

Charmayne Kilcup 55:30

The place I’m getting closer to with it is that believing and feeling you’re worthy of support or I’m worthy of support in this. It’s something that’s my growing edge right now in terms of worthiness is am I worthy enough to really ask for the help I need?

Candice Wu 55:49

Hmm, you’re not doing it alone.

Charmayne Kilcup 55:51

Right, a nanny or food delivery service, or how could all these things? Am I worthy enough to ask for more help?

Candice Wu 56:02

Yes, you are.

Charmayne Kilcup 56:03

Thank you, thank you!

Candice Wu 56:04

Yes, you are! That’s my growing edge.

Candice Wu 56:09

Thank you for sharing this. And I wonder, this is the last question I have for you: What brings you joy right now? What just feeds your soul?

Charmayne Kilcup 56:20

You know, it’s those little moments that always has was since I had my spiritual awakening, what I found was this little tiny daily moments that bring me joy. So, this morning, I’m really obsessed with the Cara Cara oranges, habit Whole Foods. So, this morning…

Candice Wu 56:38

Oh, those are yummy.

Charmayne Kilcup 56:40

…I was sitting down and eating an orange first thing in the morning. Because pregnancy really affects your blood sugar. So, those first few bites of a cold orange, deeply joyful and pleasurable.

Candice Wu 56:55

So happy that you give yourself that gift, that moment to enjoy.

Charmayne Kilcup 57:00

Yes. Going out and watering the yard and just smelling the flowers that are in bloom, joyful, it’s feeling the sun on my bare arms, because it’s quite warm here today, joyful. So, it’s still those little things and I always think it will be a good cup of coffee. So, it’s those daily sensei pleasures.

Candice Wu 57:23

Yeah, lovely. Thank you so much. I mean, is there anything else you want to share today?

Charmayne Kilcup 57:32

See if anything arises. Oh, that feels pretty complete. I mean, I could talk about all of this for three hours.

Candice Wu 57:38

I know it takes you forever.

Charmayne Kilcup 57:42

But perhaps we will in the future…

Candice Wu 57:44

Yeah. Right.

Charmayne Kilcup 57:46

to complete, for now.

Candice Wu 57:48

Yeah. Oh, well, thank you for being you, for being out there in your life, enjoying your life and sharing that joy with others and supporting others and doing that. Where can people find you?

Charmayne Kilcup 58:03

So, I can be found on my website www.CharmayneKilcup.com. I’m also on Facebook and Instagram. And it’s just my name, Charmayne Kilcup.

Candice Wu 58:15

Great, and you have the self-love quiz that people can tune into?

Charmayne Kilcup 58:20

I do. Yes. I’m having trouble figuring out how to put it on my website. Perhaps I can find that link and send it to you and you can post it with this.

Candice Wu 58:30

Yeah.

Charmayne Kilcup 58:31

Yes.

Candice Wu 58:31

I think I have the link will go with the show notes.

Charmayne Kilcup 58:35

The tech stuff is so difficult for me. So,

Candice Wu 58:40

You don’t have to do it all.

Charmayne Kilcup 58:42

Exactly. I feel worthy of support there. I will tell you that.

Candice Wu 58:46

Yeah. You already have a good example of it for yourself.

Charmayne Kilcup 58:50

Yes. Yes.

Candice Wu 58:52

Yeah. Thank you so much.

Charmayne Kilcup 58:54

Thank you, Candice.

Charmayne Kilcup 58:56

Thank you for the work you’re doing, too. I know you’re spreading all the self-love, all the joy as well. I just want to thank you for that, too.

Candice Wu 59:06

Thank you.

Candice Wu 59:13

It so, lovely to be able to have Charmayne on the show and to connect with her on this beautiful, magical healing work that we’re both doing. And how she awakens love in people is just so inspiring. Thanks so much for joining us today. And if you want to touch into her book, check it out on Amazon. It’s called Heal Your Heart: How to Awaken Your Soul with Self-Forgiveness. And you can find that at her website as well CharmayneKilcup.com and all of this information is linked on the show notes on my website at CandiceWu.com/charmayne, and her name is spelled CHARMAYNE, Charmayne. Don’t forget to check out her free gift of a meditation and self-love quiz at her website. And also at her website, you can find the information about the Institute of Spiritual Coaching.

Candice Wu 1:00:10

Thank you so much for tuning in today. It’s wonderful to know that you’re out there. So, if you have any feedback, questions or topic ideas, or just want to share your personal story of something that is connected with an episode or anything at all, feel free to connect with me on my website at CandiceWu.com/connect. And if you’re interested in receiving my newsletters that share some self-love notes, as well as personal updates about my life and what’s going on in my inner world, you can sign up at CandiceWu.com/embody. They’ll also be up-to-date with retreats and workshops, as well as podcasts that I’m having. And each of these podcasts has a very special theme or guest and they’re all meant for you to just tune into what feels inspiring to you. So, you don’t have to listen to every single one but to pick and choose what really calls to you at what time. So, as we close today, I want to just invite you all to give yourself a moment to tune into your heart.

Candice Wu 1:01:20

Just notice what’s happening without any changing it or judgment. Just this moment of connection with yourself to allow and notice what you’re feeling. And as we leave here with a little bit of music today, invite you to send some to that energy of loving and let that infuse into your day.

Candice Wu 1:01:50

And on behalf of both Charmayne and myself, just wishing that you all have that self-loving that can guide you through life with gentleness, playfulness, curiosity, and fun.

Candice Wu 1:02:08

Take good care and look forward to connecting with you again on the Embody Podcast.