Unknowing and Finding Your Own Knowing With Cynthia Langtiw — EP64

Candice Wu 0:00

This episode is with special guest Cynthia Lubin Langtiw, who is a Haitian-American licensed clinical psychologist and professor, and in this episode we talked about knowing and unknowing, being known how we decolonized knowing and qualitative research, being a mother, as well as believing in yourself and the power of your own being, to bring forth impact to the world.

Candice Wu 0:26

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:39

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:03

It is with great honor to introduce our guest today, Dr. Cynthia Lubin Langtiw. She’s just a wonderful, vibrant human being who cares so much about people and I appreciate so much her ability to just be herself, bring who she is to the table, and to love people around her and give the gifts that she is in herself.

Candice Wu 1:30

I especially enjoyed the pieces of the conversation around her alter ego and her grandmothers and the lineage and what gifts they’ve given her and how she’s shaped her way of seeing the world because of her ancestry.

Candice Wu 1:44

Cynthia is a Haitian-American licensed clinical psychologist and full professor in the Clinical Psychology program at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology and she’s also served as a supervising psychologist at Mount Sinai Hospital and currently consults with their doctoral clinical training program. And on top of that, she’s also a volunteer psychologist and clinical supervisor with the Marjorie Kovler Center for survivors of torture.

Candice Wu 2:12

She provides training on psychological trauma for the Young Center for Immigrant Children’s Rights and her clinical work reflects a strong systemic and community sensibility that integrates a relational cultural perspective. So much of our clinical work has been helping youth, adults, families, and communities utilize their own resources to heal from trauma. And in this conversation, you’ll hear exactly that, especially at the end of our conversation, where she speaks about uncovering our own knowing and trusting in who we are. So let’s jump into the conversation.

Candice Wu 2:52

So, Cynthia, I’m so thrilled to have you here today, you are Haitian-American, licensed clinical psychologist, and your full professor at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, among other aspects of your professional career where you’re a volunteer psychologist and clinical supervisor at the Kovler Center. And yeah, you have just plenty of conversations in the air around youth violence, betrayal trauma in the black community and around the world, supporting families and children in natural disasters, advocating for families, healing trauma, working with couples. And the first question I have for you, Cynthia is, tell me about Harriet the Spy, your Alter Ego?

Cynthia Langtiw 3:39

Oh, I love that question. So, you know, as a kid, I just lived in my head, and particularly as an immigrant child, just trying to figure out the world, books were everything for me and there are so many wonderful characters with whom I related and connected. But Harriet The Spy, just sparked for me, this inquisitiveness, right, there’s a part in the book where she’s writing in her little notebook, and she says, “I want to know everything, that is why I am a spy.” And that reverberated in my core, because I just thought, that’s me. I want to know everything and in large part, that’s why I’m a clinical psychologist.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:32

So, and I think that connecting with the strong female who had this deep curiosity and said that curiosity in bizarre and strange ways, resonated for me so deeply as a child and continued, you know, on my quest to know, and my continued quest to know as a clinical psychologist, but also as a researcher. I think that that stays with me still, like that desire to deeply know, but also be known. You know?

Candice Wu 5:03

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 5:05

So yeah, that’s me and Harriet the Spy. I read this like, every couple of years.

Candice Wu 5:12

I can see that she, Harriet the Spy in you is just well alive and it feels like she’s just thriving.

Cynthia Langtiw 5:19

Yeah, absolutely. I would hope so. Yeah.

Candice Wu 5:23

Oh, that’s wonderful. Yeah. And how do you see yourself on your journey right now?

Cynthia Langtiw 5:29

Yeah, so I’m at an interesting place in my journey both as a professor and there’s a clinical psychologist. And also, as a researcher, you know, there was a lot of push as I was moving towards promotion and there was a way that once I sort of, achieved full professorship, if you will, and there are so few women of color, who do. That part hit me too, that it wasn’t only for me, but for so many, and I felt my grandmothers, you know, who are no longer with us physically, but sit on my shoulders, right? But then also lift up my arms.

Cynthia Langtiw 6:06

And there’s a way that in my journey, now, I’m thinking about, well I’ve always thought about what I have to offer, right, what I have to offer my clients, what I have to offer my students, but there’s a way that I’m thinking more broadly about what I have to offer the field and that can feel a little heavy, like, who am I to think that I can offer the field of psychology something?

Cynthia Langtiw 6:29

And yet, there’s so much that I’ve been offered and learned and engaged. And I feel like I’m in a different place of scope, and impact in terms of what I can offer. And that’s where I am now. I’m at this precipice where all of these ideas have been swirling, and I’ve been working and doing an offering. But all of these ideas are swirling and converging, in really interesting and beautiful ways. And figuring out what’s next for me, figuring out how I want to use my scope of influence and knowledge to really impact in the way that I think that I’m meant to impact and to not shrink back from that, because even saying that out loud, feels hottie, right? And there’s a way that as a black woman, I’ve been taught my place, if you will, or I guess books have tried to teach me my place.

Cynthia Langtiw 7:27

I’ve embodied my grandmother’s places, if you will, and understood that there’s a reason that I am here in this space, and embodying what I do, and that my life is meant to impact in a particular way and that I, not only can I not shrink back, but I have a moral obligation to not shrink back from the space that I meant to step into. And that’s a lot to hold.

Candice Wu 8:00

It is.

Cynthia Langtiw 8:02

You know, I’m a mom of two boys and of course, that’s a role that I embody, hopefully, as a primary role, they see that, but then balancing all of these other ways that I think that I’m meant to be in the world, and in our field and in people’s lives, but then also, on pages and other places, is the precipice I’m on right now.

Candice Wu 8:29

Yeah, and it’s like, it feels like almost like a beautiful, I don’t know, challenge, a beautiful struggle. And like the experience of not drinking back.

Cynthia Langtiw 8:40

Yes.

Candice Wu 8:40

And being in yourself, being with what you have here. And I’m reminded of, I watched a video of you speaking

Cynthia Langtiw 8:49

Oh, my.

Candice Wu 8:50

Yeah, I’ve got a couple of them. But one of them, you shared a quote by Margaret Mead: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.

Cynthia Langtiw 9:09

Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:10

I’m just bringing that back now, as you’re saying, “Who am I to think I can make an impact?” and “who are you not too?”

Cynthia Langtiw 9:17

Right.

Candice Wu 9:17

I also wonder, when you said that quote, in that speaking engagement you had, you teared up almost or?

Cynthia Langtiw 9:27

Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:27

Yeah, and I wondered what touches you about this?

Cynthia Langtiw 9:30

You know, it’s funny that you say that, because I feel really emotional right now, is thinking about that, because I think there’s a way that we can feel so disconnected and alone in this world. And feel like it’s so big in particular, in this season, in the US, where it can just feel somewhat hopeless, right?

Candice Wu 9:53

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 9:54

And it can feel like, “Whoa, what is my smile going to do? What is my banding together with my students going to do? What is my, working in my coalition for immigrant mental health going to do?”

Cynthia Langtiw 10:08

And then it reminds me of every single movement, every single change that’s occurred has happened, because people believed and came together and it wasn’t necessarily a, you know, a huge swell of people. But as people who have a sense of social justice, a sense of integrity, a sense of purpose, and they come together in that purpose, and they band together, and they lift each other up, you know, as one person sort of starts to not believe that lifted up by one, and they’re the ones who lift up the next day.

Cynthia Langtiw 10:46

And I think of all of the social movements, I mean, it’s Black History Month, right? And then having these conversations with my kids, you know, I think about our, you know, current immigration situation, crisis, emergency, there are many ways that we can think about it. But I think about the work that I’m doing with the Coalition on Immigrant Mental Health, and how each day, you know, we’re chipping away at some of the injustice that’s going on and it is actually making a difference. I think of all the movements across time, and space, right., and how it was always spurred on by a small group of people who said, “You know what, we’re not going to stand for this anymore.” Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 11:35

I think of my work right now, part of what like, really, I was at a conference, I’m on the board of Point Source Youth, and our aim is to end youth homelessness. And there’s a way that when I first you know, became a member of the board, I thought, yeah, we’re going to work to help some kids who don’t have a home and in that moment, looking at that room, at that conference, when I read that quote, what got me emotional was, here was 500 people, right, and I looked out into the audience and each and every one of us, in that moment, believed that we would end youth homelessness in the US.

Cynthia Langtiw 12:20

And there’s no way that was, so like, I felt like, I was levitating. And I believe that wholeheartedly today, that we will end youth homelessness, and it’s this group of people who’ve been chipping away in their offices with one or two trans youth who don’t know where to go or what to do, or who are living on the street or, and for us to all come together, having had hopeless moments. But in that moment to look into each other’s eyes and say, this room of people will end youth homelessness, period, full stop.

Candice Wu 13:03

I can even feel that here.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:05

Yeah. Heavy.

Candice Wu 13:06

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:07

It’s like, oh, my gosh. And that’s the thing, like, that’s what happens. That’s the power of love and purpose, and community.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:19

So yeah, I get emotional, whenever I think about it. Right.

Candice Wu 13:23

Yeah. It’s incredible. And just that little desire can become united with so many other pieces of people that are desiring that, too. It just grows.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:36

Yeah, absolutely.

Candice Wu 13:39

So we want to swing back to knowing and Harriet the Spy, and wanting to know everything in the world, and you are working on in your qualitative research, ways of knowing.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:54

Yeah.

Candice Wu 13:55

Sounds like you’re challenging ways of knowing. Can you tell us about it?

Cynthia Langtiw 13:57

Yeah, there’s so many, there are a couple of different things floating around for me, and one of them is this idea, I have a couple of ideas for some books that I think will help us to tap into how we transform. So one of them actually came from one of my students, who is now a professor and teaching at the Chicago School. But, it’s called Interlogs and the whole idea of an Interlog is a process that happens while you are researching that transforms who you are and that in turn, transforms the work. So I’ll give you an example of this Interlog. I’ll give you two briefly.

Cynthia Langtiw 14:37

So the student of mine, now professor, Dr. Elena Pinkston, was working on this beautiful qualitative dissertation, and which she was asking first-time mothers, their phenomenological experience of showing. And that was the title of her dissertation, which I thought was great at the time, and she disclosed this in her dissertation, so I feel comfortable disclosing it with you, and your audience.

Cynthia Langtiw 15:04

Her aunt, who was close in age to her was pregnant, and so she’s doing this dissertation, talking to pregnant women and her aunt is pregnant, it’s really exciting. And during her dissertation process, her aunt actually loses the baby and it was devastating. And she had to hit pause, and she didn’t know what to do with that, because here she was continuing in these interviews with these women who were so excited and their babies would be born. You know, it was a really hard time for her. So she had paused and she wrote a chapter called Interlogs. And it was how she wrestled with her own, right, transformation, as a result of the interviews of these women, but also this event that happened in her family’s life.

Cynthia Langtiw 15:56

And so she wrote this chapter called Interlog and she included it in her dissertation. Because it indelibly influenced the way that she viewed the rest of the interviews, but also how she interpreted her data, understood her data, and then moved forward with the dissertation. And so this idea of interlogs became so powerful to me. And I, you know, I’ve had several other students who have had significant challenges and the way that it comes up, it’s really interesting. It’s typically a time delay.

Cynthia Langtiw 16:33

I had another student who is Muslim and was writing a dissertation looking at millennials Muslims and the impact of 9/11 on their day to day lives. Right. Beautiful dissertation, really important, necessary needed, we need to understand their phenomenological experience.

Cynthia Langtiw 17:00

Well, it took the student much longer than she had anticipated and there were all these stories that she told herself, right, about why, about her writing, about not being committed, about all kinds of stories. But then when we sat down, she actually completed the interviews. She’s a great writer. And we’re trying to figure out like, why this wasn’t getting done. Well, she was interviewing people who looked like her, who had her experience, at her dissertation defense, we ended up getting her moving and have that conversation and had a conversation, which was actually an interview about her own interlog, her own transformation, her own reflection. And we’re able to move her through the dissertation successfully.

Cynthia Langtiw 17:55

And she’s out practicing now doing wonderful work with her community and with many others as well. But that would not have happened with that level of reflection on the stories that she was telling herself.

Cynthia Langtiw 18:09

I mean, to give you a sense of it, like, during her dissertation, we had her read some of the quotes, some clips, if you will, from her dissertation and she got so choked up that she couldn’t. And so I took the transcripts, and I want to read, and I got choked up, and I’m not a millennial-Muslim woman, you know, like, it was the things that she was reading, the stories that she was being told were so heavy to hold as a researcher, and they were her own story, right, in many ways.

Candice Wu 18:44

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 18:45

And it was critical for the transformative process of the dissertation, the transformative process of doing research to be codified, and to be reflected, and to understand how we are embodying a new way of being a researcher, as a result of what we’re learning in our research. We can’t be removed. We’re not removed. This idea that we’re this objective researcher is a fallacy, and I want to debunk that.

Candice Wu 19:21

Oh, thank goodness, because it’s like, we are absolutely part of that story of what we’re seeing and researching, and —

Cynthia Langtiw 19:30

Of course.

Candice Wu 19:31

It always comes from a specific lens. So the more we can be honest about that and congruent with that, sound like we can glean so much more out of the whole understanding.

Cynthia Langtiw 19:42

Yeah, and clarifying our own lens, right? In clarifying our own lens, and I teach qualitative research, and I have this soapbox around validity and rigor, and it’s not because I want my students to get published, although if they want to, that’s great. But for me, right, clarifying one’s lens, which is for me, what rigor and validity and research, in general, is about, is about the primacy of the voice of our participants. And our participants come to us, and they share these powerful stories, and they trust that we will represent them in a way that will make a difference in the world. And it’s critical as researchers, not just qualitative, I would say quantitative too, as researchers, that we clarify our lens. So the clarity of the data is the participant’s voice and not our own. So —

Candice Wu 20:41

Yes.

Cynthia Langtiw 20:41

Yeah, that’s all so important to me, and particularly, because much of the research that I end up doing, ends up being with groups of people who have traditionally been marginalized, or treated poorly, or targeted in a negative way. So people of color or other folks in the world, and so for me, the idea of being a researcher and training and teaching researchers who would see people holy, who would, you know, have a sense of sacredness, of somebody offering you their story or their information, and take that seriously it’s so important. Decolonizing methodologies, right? I’ve been wrestling with that. Like, what does it mean to decolonize our work?

Candice Wu 21:13

What does that mean?

Cynthia Langtiw 21:34

Yeah, exactly. I’ve been wrestling with it a lot. In many ways. It’s about understanding the unique, but also situated perspective of the person who’s sitting in front of us, but also recognizing the ways that we’ve been steeped in a particular way of knowing, right, and how to unpack for myself, for ourselves, that way of knowing.

Cynthia Langtiw 21:59

So I’ll give you an example. I was having a consultation around the dissertation with someone this week and so this person has a wonderful dissertation topic, they, in their dissertation chair have a different idea about how to work through it. But their question is a clear qualitative question and so this person’s question was, well, what group will I compare it to?

Cynthia Langtiw 22:28

And I said, “Well, who says you have to compare in this particular dissertation?

Cynthia Langtiw 22:35

You know, this group of people, this targeted, marginalized group of people is one, that you have a unique niche perspective on. You have a sense of why they haven’t been asked these important questions about their teaching strategies, right? Why do we need to compare them to another group? Right? Their voice is uniquely important but there’s a way that this person has been steeped in sort of the capitalistic Adam Smith The Wealth of Nations, compare, contrast, there has to be a winner, there has to be a loser. Right? Like, all of those narratives are so deeply ingrained and for me, decolonizing methodologies is unplugging from that and saying, “This group of people has a really important story to tell us. Let’s sit and focus on them.” Period. No comparison.

Candice Wu 23:32

Yes. Well, and I think about what you’re saying, with research and just broadening this to the idea of life, and you know, us, as researchers in our own lives, us, interacting with people and seeing what happens, us decolonizing our ways of seeing ourselves and others and the way we looked at what we think we know, and how our Interlog like that, if I’m getting it right, like, what goes on in us that influences how we see the other person?

Cynthia Langtiw 24:06

Yeah, exactly.

Candice Wu 24:08

Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

Cynthia Langtiw 24:11

Yeah, you know, taking a step back, for me, the whole idea, one of the reasons that it’s so hard to unpack decolonization is because, I, myself have been so steeped in my ways of knowing, right? Like, I kiss my boys’ goodnight and say, you’re the best, and my kids are great. They’re awesome. They’re like, why do they have to be the best?

Cynthia Langtiw 24:37

Right? That’s even like, troubling that language for myself?

Candice Wu 24:43

Right.

Cynthia Langtiw 24:44

It’s another way of traveling the idea of decolonizing in my everyday life, you know, that the competition, right, like that idea, is a very Western way of being and so how can I think about other ways of being in the world, giving my work across the world? And I think for all of us to be troubling, right, the ways that we are steeped in knowing, and I think, you know, to go back to my grandmother, you know, Stephanie, is one of my grandmothers and Andrea, the other one, these two women, and I love, I say this with pride, like neither of the two of them could read or write. Right. And, their two, of course, of the most brilliant women that I knew, that I know and so for me, I knew at a very young age that they could not formally read or write and that they were brilliant. So there was a way that when I got to grad school, and I’m learning about assessment, right, and they’re looking at about other ways of knowing, I thought, well, yeah, of course, there are people who are smart and don’t know how to read.

Candice Wu 26:02

Yes.

Cynthia Langtiw 26:04

My grandmothers, right, and even my grandmother, Andrea, I’ve never met anybody who could recite more Psalms than she could from the Bible. She was a deeply spiritual woman. And when I think about that, right, like for someone who didn’t read or write, but then to memorize the scripture and hold them in her heart, because that was important to her, how brilliant and I always knew that.

Cynthia Langtiw 26:30

And so for me, there was a way that that I was always troubling, sort of these rigid ways of knowing and also unknowing, and the wobbliness and the unsteadiness of unknowing and how that unknowing place is the birthplace of creativity, like you can’t be fully creative and like, burst forth from a place of like, solid knowledge all the way through. There has to be a place of unpacking, unknowing, of wobbliness, right, in which we get steady, right, because that it’s so important.

Cynthia Langtiw 27:12

So like all of it, the knowing, the unknowing and moving through, and finding the courage to sit in that unknowing, wobbly place is another part of, sort of my unpacking of knowledge and ways of knowing, right? Now, that I think, in my clinical work it’s certainly present, in my research it’s present. But in my life, you know, as a parent, holy cow, I always joke that I was an amazing clinical child psychologist before I had —

Cynthia Langtiw 27:46

But now, I’m like, I hope I didn’t break them, you know?

Cynthia Langtiw 27:53

I think I’m doing okay now, but I check in with them every so often “Am I doing okay guys? How are you feeling?” You know?

Cynthia Langtiw 28:02

I said to my son once we were, just cuddling once, I said, “Sweetie, how are you doing? You know, am I doing okay as a mom?” And he’s 12, and really sweet, and we’re cuddling, and then he gets up. And he looks like he’s 20. And he looks at me, he’s like, I think you’re doing the best you can.

Cynthia Langtiw 28:29

Like, such a sweet moment.

Cynthia Langtiw 28:34

But he was so honest.

Candice Wu 28:35

So much wisdom.

Cynthia Langtiw 28:38

You know, there’s some room for improvement, but you’re doing okay, you know, but also acknowledging that he gets it, that I’m trying. Right. So, I think that being a parent has certainly been, you know, a wonderful, wobbly place for me.

Candice Wu 28:57

Yes.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:01

I’m still I’m learning so much. But then it translates into other places in my life, too. And as a teacher, it helps me to sit with my students in their places of discomfort as their unknowing, and to walk as — in companionship with them, right, as their unknowing and to trust their unknowing process. And I —

Candice Wu 29:31

You hold such a save space then.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:33

Right, I tell them, you will get frustrated with me, because you’ll come to me and want an answer and you’ll get more questions, and you’ll leave cursing at me under your breath, and then you’ll come back feeling so proud that you uncovered the answers that you already know.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:52

Like, you, already have, right, that you felt like you wanted me to tell you, but there would be no sense of pride, no sense of ownership, no sense of, “I did this.”

Candice Wu 30:07

Yeah, we have to find the answers for ourselves, the ones that are most important, is what I’m getting from that.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:14

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:15

There are ways that the whole idea weaves its way. But it’s also because I have a firm belief that we have so much of what we need to know and that we need to uncover it and unpack it and come to our truth. And that there’s an importance in silence, and sitting with to uncover the things that are already there.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:41

And so that’s why, I mean, one of the reasons I appreciate your podcast so much, because you focus on the sense of oneself, and meditation, and sitting with because there’s so much knowledge that we already have in our spirits, in our core, from across time and space, the ancestors, right, like are here with us, have been here with us, they knew us before we knew, and we ourselves, our ancestors that know, our great-grandchildren. And we’re already offering something to them, right, like in this moment. And it’s, like, when I think about that level of connection, I think like, how can I feel lost? How can I feel lost when I’m so connected to the past and to the future? You know?

Candice Wu 31:35

That’s a beautiful image and energy, like, the connection of what’s already there, anchoring us to who we are.

Cynthia Langtiw 31:44

Yeah.

Candice Wu 31:49

I just have one last question for you, Cynthia. What’s your indulgence or guilty pleasure right now?

Cynthia Langtiw 31:56

Oh, trashy novels.

Candice Wu 31:59

Like what?

Cynthia Langtiw 32:00

I won’t name them. The last one I got from the library, I thought, really? Is he not wearing a shirt?

Candice Wu 32:13

That’s hilarious! It’s like we have to let go somewhere, you know, when the rest of our lives are so important.

Cynthia Langtiw 32:21

Yes.

Candice Wu 32:23

Taking our energies, yeah, something has to give.

Cynthia Langtiw 32:27

Absolutely! I love them. I indulge. Of course, I have, you know, my book club with our high-end books and my psychology books, and my trauma books. But yeah, the trashy novels. They’re my indulgence.

Candice Wu 32:41

So if I see, like, a book covered in like, a black paper just to be hidden from — next to your travel books, I may take a peak —

Cynthia Langtiw 32:55

Gladly.

Candice Wu 32:57

Oh, funny.

Candice Wu 32:58

Well, thank you so much. This is so much fun talking with you, Cynthia, and you bring so much wisdom, vibrancy, and life. You’re such an advocate for people and I just appreciate you so much.

Cynthia Langtiw 33:11

Thank you so much. I am honored. I have such a respect for you and your work, and your podcasts that to be asked to be a part of this community, a deep honor and a sacred time. Thank you.

Candice Wu 33:25

Thank you so much. Where can people find you, Cynthia?

Cynthia Langtiw 33:29

Sure!

Cynthia Langtiw 33:29

So, I can be reached — my email is CLangtiw@thechicagoschool.edu. I hope that you can open those links. My LinkedIn is also a profile for me and I have a page on the Chicago School. So all of those are places that you can reach me, and feel free to email me or you know, send a LinkedIn message.

Candice Wu 33:55

Beautiful. We will put all those on the show notes so it’ll be easily accessible. And thank you so much.

Cynthia Langtiw 34:02

Thank you.

Candice Wu 34:07

I’m so honored that Cynthia was able to be on the show today. Thank you so much, Cynthia, and thank you all out there listening. I hope that this was interesting for you, especially her conversation about Interlogs and how transformation, our own transformation affects how we are seeing the world. And she specifically was speaking on research, but I feel as we spoke about, touched about briefly, how that is so much a reality in our life right now that we’re waking up to, that we are showing up more. I’m seeing this happen more and more with people, that they’re showing up more with who they are and what they’re experiencing as valuable, and not something to hide and pretend that we are this blank slate, and pretend that we just come with nothing and are seeing the world completely neutrally. It’s just not the case.

Candice Wu 35:01

Of course, we’re affected by who we are and what energy and material we’re looking at the outside of us. What kind of person we’re experiencing outside of us. And it’s that kind of connection with ourselves, an interaction with what comes up, that is the healing work. That is the power of what energies we bring to the table and what wants to be seen and uncovered, so that connection can happen with even more, not just ourselves, but with others and it’s valuable. It’s worthwhile.

Candice Wu 35:41

So thank you so much, Cynthia, for bringing that to the table and your important work in the world.

Candice Wu 35:47

I encourage you to check out part two of this episode, especially if you’re interested in trauma in relationships and also in betrayal. We talked about feeling brokenhearted where things don’t feel complete, and that there’s an opportunity to rebuild within trauma or experiences that are very challenging.

Candice Wu 36:05

We also explore our ancestors and how the past and the future can anchor and ground us and resources in the now, as well as how in relationship, in intimate relationships, it’s often that there’s trauma involved when things become challenging. We explore true intimacy as well as boundaries and betrayal trauma that’s on a micro and macro level with people as well as in the black community.

Candice Wu 36:31

If you’re interested in looking at Interlogs for yourself, and how that can touch into your personal life, go ahead and look out for her guided experience that’s going to come out later this week, where you can be guided by Cynthia through this process of looking at your own inner transformation and exploring how that’s coming to life for you.

Candice Wu 36:57

If you’re just listening in and you want to find the link for that, you can find it at CandiceWu.com/cynthia.

Candice Wu 37:03

I am leaving today’s conversation with a great deal of energy and love and most of all acceptance, as Cynthia was talking about unknowing and the ways that we’ve been steeped in a certain kind of knowing which I have to.

Candice Wu 37:27

It’s very important that we’re embracing all the parts of ourselves because that brings us forward to more knowing and a different kind of compassion for ourselves in each other, ways of compassion and being seen, things being seen and unsilenced to that, bring us to a greater fullness. So with that, I look forward to seeing you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Candice Wu 0:00

This is part two of the episode with special guest, Cynthia Langtiw, and in this episode, we talked about trauma, how to utilize your own resources and feel connection and wholeness with yourself, within trauma experiences, trauma in relation to couples, and healing in relationships as well as the experience of betrayal trauma, when the hand that feeds you is also the hand that hurts you, and we talked about that on a micro and macro level.

Candice Wu 0:30

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, embodied healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 0:44

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:05

This episode is supported by my listeners who have contributed on Patreon. If you found the podcast to be interesting, inspiring, healing or supportive for you and you want a way to contribute back, feel free to check out my page at CandiceWu.com/patreon where you can donate even just as little as $1 a month to support the production of the podcast, and all of the love and details that go into every single episode. Thank you in advance for considering to donate, it really means a lot to me. And every single person that’s on there, just also adds in their energy towards the life of the podcast. So thank you, all of you out there.

Candice Wu 1:52

I’m thrilled to have Cynthia back for a second day here on the podcast. The podcast that went out yesterday, part one, was all about being your best voice, believing in change and healing. It was about connection, ancestry, and lineage, as well as the decolonizing methodologies in research and in life.

Candice Wu 2:14

I really wanted Cynthia to come back to talk more about trauma because she is a trauma expert, and she’s just somebody that holds space for so many people that are suffering in the world. She’s worked with refugee populations. She’s worked with relationships and couples, as well as individuals who are experiencing trauma or have, at some point in their life. And she sees people with such a beauty and wholeness that brings people to see their own wholeness.

Candice Wu 2:44

If you haven’t listened to the first part of the episode yet, go ahead and find it on my website at CandiceWu.com/cynthia or CandiceWu.com/ep64. I encourage you to listen because it’s truly inspiring and even brought me to feeling this radiance within myself. Without further ado, let’s jump in and talk to Cynthia.

Candice Wu 3:13

Welcome back, Cynthia! It’s fantastic to have you here on the show again.

Cynthia Langtiw 3:17

Thank you for having me back. I’m excited to continue our conversation.

Candice Wu 3:21

Yeah, you know, I was just so happy with our conversation and inspired, and I felt this vibrance and brilliance in my whole being. And I know that you work with a lot of trauma and trauma is just such an important topic of the Embody Podcast. A lot of people are tuning in because they have trauma or they know of somebody or they’re just revealing to themselves, maybe I do have some trauma. And so I wanted to hear your wisdom on that. And specifically, I have read somewhere that you were talking about supporting people and utilizing their own resources to help them trauma. So I’d love for you to talk about trauma and how you support that.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:08

Yeah. I really appreciate that question so deeply.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:12

And I’ve come in my, you know, years of doing this work to realize how pervasive trauma is. And so that’s a bit heavy and heavy to hold. But I also realize the spectrum and so I think many people would shy away from the term, trauma, you know, big T or little t, because maybe they think of a big event that happened.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:37

But what I find, and I did a workshop a couple of years ago, and I borrowed from Brené Brown, thinking about being wholehearted and one of the things that connected for folks was the idea of being broken-hearted, like having pieces of yourself that don’t feel completely connected.

Cynthia Langtiw 4:54

And so when I think about trauma and the experience of trauma over the lifetime, I think about broken-heartedness, and how we’re meant to live wholeheartedly. But these breaks in relationships, or these things that happened to us that we experience is traumatic, leave us not feeling like we’re able to live wholeheartedly. And so that gets to how I think about the impact of trauma. So much of the trauma that’s long-lasting, is interpersonal.

Cynthia Langtiw 5:25

Now, there are some things that happen. So say, a fire or a car accident, they are not necessarily interpersonal, but so much of the trauma that I see in the world, and my clients, you know, in my day to day life, is interpersonal trauma. And I find that to be especially difficult when it happens early on in life when we’re having less than optimal experiences, from which to build, because that’s when we build our foundational resources. We learn how to have an interaction with someone, have it be difficult, but get resources from our parents or caregivers, about how to move through. We learn to feel sad. We learn to feel angry. We learn to feel happy. We learn to hold all of these resources and being able to make —

Candice Wu 6:17

Or, we don’t.

Cynthia Langtiw 6:18

Oh, we don’t, right. And that’s why we ought to, I should say that’s where we ought to be learning those —

Candice Wu 6:24

That’s right.

Cynthia Langtiw 6:25

Fundamental building blocks and resources that we draw upon later on, right, in order to move forward. If we don’t get those initial building blocks, that becomes really difficult later on to even notice one, that we don’t have those resources, but then to had a move on in life. And so when I talk about being resourced, I mean, some of these very basic building blocks, how to communicate. What we had to understand? What we’re feeling? How to communicate what we’re feeling? How to understand what we need? How to ask for what we need, right?

Cynthia Langtiw 7:04

The beauty is, though, when we realize that some of these resources are lacking, or not there, or were not available, we can start building them. So it’s never too late to learn how to notice your emotions, to notice how something that happens to you is sitting in your body. I know that the whole somatic world is so important for you and your work and it is for me, as well. Like, to notice, like, what is happening in our bodies in response to a stimulus, any stimulus. What’s happening emotionally, right, and then to be able to use some of those, and build resources from those is so important.

Candice Wu 7:04

Absolutely.

Cynthia Langtiw 7:51

And then the world opens up in terms of resources, right? Connecting with our emotions, connecting with ourselves, and then being able to connect with others in meaningful ways, in ways where we can share and ways where we can emote, in ways where we can offer love, guidance, support, in ways that we can get love, guidance, support, right. True, deep emotional connection happens when we’re connected to ourselves first, and that takes understanding, important resources and then building upon them. I hope that starts to answer your question.

Candice Wu 8:32

Yeah, you know, I am hooking into that experience of most trauma being within an interpersonal relationship and in the context of relationship, therefore needing a relationship to support the healing. And, you know, where do we learn the building blocks of how to feel something in ourselves, by ourselves?

Cynthia Langtiw 8:54

Yeah.

Candice Wu 8:55

If we don’t have that we just don’t have it.

Cynthia Langtiw 8:57

We don’t. Yeah, and it’s so important, right.

Candice Wu 9:02

Yeah, and the other thing I was thinking, what you said early on in this question, something I’ve been thinking about a lot and something people ask me is, do you see practically everything is relating to trauma? And I see trauma as something that’s incomplete, that wanted some completion in some way, whether that’s staying with a feeling that just didn’t get enough space or time or a fight, or something being said that felt like it wanted to happen instinctually, but didn’t get a chance to, or protect it in a way.

Cynthia Langtiw 9:38

Yeah.

Candice Wu 9:39

And so I just see these little and big things happening to us all of the time. Like, we don’t scream at our boss because, you know, we want to protect our job, right?

Cynthia Langtiw 9:53

Right.

Candice Wu 9:54

And that has a whole, perhaps a whole branch of other experiences linked with it. But do you see it that way? Or what is your thought about that?

Cynthia Langtiw 10:03

I think that’s such a beautiful way of putting it, things that aren’t finished, you know. Be it the most minute, seemingly, I should say seemingly minute fissures, right? Maybe you didn’t get something you wanted, or there was a need that, a want that felt like a need that didn’t get much, that you don’t even realize in the moment or you know, as babies, that happens, when there’s no language. Actually, there are no words, I should say there’s, you know, some language in terms of interaction, and so I think that really links into what I was thinking about in terms of being broken-hearted, right? These events, emotions, these things that happen, that don’t have resolution, or that leave us feeling not complete, right?

Cynthia Langtiw 10:51

But I think that sometimes those are, I think of those as opportunities, right? I think of moments that we don’t get what we need, or what we want, I should say, as opportunities to build, then move towards communicating about that need with our caregiver? How do we let them know? How does the caregiver then help repair by offering what it is that we need?

Cynthia Langtiw 11:23

So I don’t think that those fissures are necessarily problematic. They’re problematic when they aren’t complete. When there isn’t resolution. When we don’t learn how to move through, right. And that’s when we’re left brokenhearted.

Cynthia Langtiw 11:39

So I think the idea of not having a resolution, not completing, from the minute to the very large is so important, you know?

Cynthia Langtiw 11:50

Whenever someone tells me of something that happened to them, that has left them feeling sad, or traumatized, if they use those words, I asked them what happened when you told someone? What happened when you communicate it to someone? And what I found, by and large, is that the events that happen are often very painful and difficult. But what many people experience as a second trauma, and sometimes even more impactful is how someone else responded, either callously or not fully, or not completely, because they weren’t resourced, or negatively, or harshly, right, has such a long-lasting impact. The words that were said, the look on a face, has such a long-lasting impact.

Cynthia Langtiw 12:51

Similarly, when someone has had something really difficult happen, and they receive love, when they communicate, they receive compassion, they receive vulnerability in response to their own vulnerability, there’s such a different way that they talk about in their experience, you know. And so, I think that that’s another really important piece of understanding the intense power of pain, but also healing that can and I think it must happen in the context of relationship.

Candice Wu 13:31

Absolutely.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:32

Yeah.

Candice Wu 13:33

That’s beautiful. Thank you.

Cynthia Langtiw 13:35

You know, the other piece to that, that just made me think, and I think so much of it happens in the context of relationship, but for me, as someone who is a lifelong reader, I think if I wasn’t a clinical psychologist or professor, I would be a librarian or a spy…

Cynthia Langtiw 13:52

I’ll be a librarian because from the end, especially as an immigrant child, reading books was how I entered the world, like, how I came to understand and make sense of the world. And sometimes seeing another person, even a fictional character’s experience, resonated so profoundly and deeply within for me, that it changed me.

Cynthia Langtiw 14:25

There are ways that I’ve been healed by hearing and seeing a character in the book heal. There are ways that I felt validated, like, I think about Pecola Breedlove, from Toni Morrison’s The Bluest Eye. I’ve only ever read that book once, because it shook my soul to know that another little girl had this experience of being black in America. And, so there are ways that I’ve felt so seen in the context of a novel, that it’s overwhelming. And I think that’s another really beautiful way that we can connect with ourselves and with others interpersonally.

Candice Wu 15:11

Absolutely. I am just thinking about a book that I read when I was in fourth grade. Oh, goodness, what is it called? It was a book about the Holocaust and I can just see the cover, it’s red, it’s got two children on it, and the star of David right in the middle of it. And, I was just enthralled with reading about the Holocaust and reading stories like this and it was a fictional book, but just what you’re saying, something in it touched me even at that really young age and I had no clue why, you know? I am a Chinese-American girl that time and who knows why I’m just like, engrossed in this, and it’s terrifying, yet, also very healing.

Candice Wu 16:03

And later in life, I just felt very connected with something in me. I can name it as maybe it was a past life, experience of being Jewish or something, but aside from that, even, there was something in me about hiding in this life. And so whatever it was, there was just so much there, that was in an unspoken version of me, but read through these stories. So, I completely relate to what you’re saying and it’s, — we can find so much in story.

Cynthia Langtiw 16:43

And I think that speaks to relationship too, like, there’s a relationship that I had with, Pecola Breedlove rate and then with Toni Morrison, there’s a relationship that you had with these two characters, that was meaningful for you, right?

Candice Wu 17:00

Absolutely, and you said to me, one time, when we were speaking, feeling grounded across time and space was really important with finding resource around healing trauma, knowing you’re not just in this moment by yourself.

Cynthia Langtiw 17:18

Yeah.

Candice Wu 17:19

That you’re with your ancestors as long as those to come and that really resonated with me. Can you say more?

Cynthia Langtiw 17:26

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think, you know, with respect to literature, I think one of the things that can feel so difficult is when we feel untethered, unconnected, alone, and lonely, not just alone, but lonely, as if we are solitary in this world, and I realized one of the important resources for me, and I’m blessed to come from a line, and to have known, you know, through the really important matriarchs, my grandmothers, Andrea Hipolete and Stephanie being the two, that I think about most prominently, and they’re no longer here physically on earth with us, but they’re with me every day, you know, and in moments where I feel like, “Oh, my gosh, I had this task before me.” I often stand very still and call upon them, and I feel their courage, buoy me, you know. And I feel the courage of all the women whose shoulders on which they stood, you know, I feel the courage of my ancestors grounding me.

Cynthia Langtiw 18:39

And I also think about, like, you know, I have these two boys, and I think about who they’ll bring into the world, who they’ll love, you know, who will love them. And all of the progeny, like, who will come from my family and I feel grounded, both in the past with my grandmothers, but also with who and what’s to come and there’s the way that I can’t feel alone in the world, when I really ground myself in both the past and the future. And I feel tethered, but not torn, in both ways. And that’s such an important inner resource for me. And I think that, and I hope that my kids feel that way. I certainly know that my siblings feel that way. But I hope that more people really stopped to think about, you know, the ways that they can ground themselves, in the past and the future, and in the ways that they are.

Cynthia Langtiw 19:40

And sometimes that can be really challenging because it’s wonderful and amazing as my grandmothers are. I have these beautiful memories. But there are some painful memories, you know, in the past as well. And I know the important work that you do around intergenerational family work, that there’s some pain that can be there as well and as I say that knowing that those inner resources that come from the past and the future are complicated.

Candice Wu 20:13

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 20:14

Yeah.

Candice Wu 20:14

Right.

Cynthia Langtiw 20:15

Yeah. And that’s very real as well and I honor that. I honor that it’s complex.

Candice Wu 20:22

Absolutely. It’s very real. Thank you. So you’re doing trauma work with couples as well and you were writing a book?

Cynthia Langtiw 20:32

Yes. So it’s one of the books that’s at the forefront of my spirit, you know, I feel like it’s not even something that I’ve come up with, but that it’s come to me. And, you know, in recent years, I’ve just come to seek so clearly, with all the amazing couples with whom I work, and I don’t know how people find me. But whenever a couple leaves my office, I think, wow, what amazing people I get to work with, you know, and I just feel so honored that they let me in their lives and let me in their couplehood.

Cynthia Langtiw 21:08

And what I found with almost all of the couples, if not all of the couples with whom I’ve worked, is that when there are significant challenges, that there often is trauma or multiple traumas that had been experienced, right. And so what happens is that, and often, in both members of the couple that have experienced significant trauma, that they’re working through or need to work through, or maybe never even realized, was situated in them as a traumatic experience or series of experiences.

Cynthia Langtiw 21:51

And so I find much of my work is helping them recognize, one, the trauma that they’ve experienced, and how it’s showing up in the context of relationship. How it’s keeping them from being vulnerable with each other. How — and there are moments that are happening around self-preservation, that are not about what’s happening in this moment, that are tethered to the past, connected to the past trauma, but are showing up right now. And so how can I be a compassionate, you know, partner, right? How can I understand this as related to the trauma, and so give some space for my partner to be and to work through? How can I, as the partner who is living out, working through a traumatic experience in the context of the here and now, communicate with my partner, what I’m learning about myself, what I’m understanding about myself, what I’m not understanding, or recognizing might not be related to what’s happening with this partner here, but maybe something that’s happened in the past.

Cynthia Langtiw 23:05

And I find that my work, as the psychologist in this space, is to offer some space to see the dynamics that are happening. What’s happening in the here and now? What’s related to your past trauma? What is being worked through right now? And how can we understand how all of it is situated together? It’s a really delicate dance. And, but it’s a dance that the couples are doing every day, and maybe not recognizing how it’s playing out for them.

Cynthia Langtiw 23:40

I keep coming back too in the work that I do with couples is how one of the things that we, you know, one of the papers that I read, years ago, must have been like 25 years ago, and it stayed with me, Susan Sands. And she’s, I think she comes from a self-psychology perspective. But the title of the paper, I think, was, What is Dissociated?

Cynthia Langtiw 24:02

And the preps of the paper was: what is dissociated, is connection, right? Like, so when somebody experiences a trauma, what happens is, it cuts off their ability to connect, right? And it was so powerful to me because it was so clear. And so when someone starts moving away in the context of relationship, a partner it’s because they’re trying to protect themselves. And so we talk about what it is they’re trying to protect, the way that they’re trying to disconnect as a means of self-preservation, and how at some point that was working for them. They had to do that, that was how they protected themselves. But that strategy is no longer working in the context of this relationship, because what you want to do is move closer to your partner, not away from your partner, right? You want to move towards intimacy and that disconnection, that lack of vulnerability, that self-protection and self-preservation is moving away from intimacy, rather two of them towards intimacy.

Cynthia Langtiw 25:14

And that’s a big ask, you know, that’s a big act for someone who has had to protect themselves and has used strategies that have kept them alive, in some cases, to say, Okay, I get it. It made total sense at some point in time. But right now, it’s not the strategy that’s helping you move towards your goal. And so how can we say thank you to that strategy and put it aside, while we’re trying to employ strategies that can help us move towards our goals in the here and now.

Candice Wu 25:50

I think that’s such a powerful experience to shed the past strategies and recognize they were helpful. And that feels to me, now, as you’re talking about it, one of the signals of trauma, you know, we keep using a strategy over and over, even when it’s not presently useful anymore. And we can get locked in that reaction or pattern, where we keep on doing the thing that’s not helpful to now because we have disconnected with the moment or with the vulnerability of now. And so, yeah, and you spoke about intimacy and we have talked in the past about intimacy, how to have true intimacy. Can you speak about that? What is true intimacy?

Cynthia Langtiw 26:42

Yeah, I mean, I think that we all desire to be, you know, our complete selves, and I talked about being able to like, the couples of whom I work to be able to walk in the door and feel like you can breathe free, right, you can be your whole self. You know, my good friend, Dr. Tracy Rogers, you know, talks about bringing your whole self to the table. She’s — and the importance of being able to bring your whole self —

Candice Wu 27:11

How does she say it? I love it.

Cynthia Langtiw 27:13

Your whole self. I love her so much.

Cynthia Langtiw 27:17

And it’s real and I say that with such fondness because she is a friend of my heart and someone with whom I can bring my whole self and being able to be laid bare before someone else, right? And have that be and know that that’s completely okay, you know, be able to be vulnerable. That’s the stuff of relationship, because it’s in that quivery, open, laid bare, vulnerable space, that we truly connect with another human being. Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 27:58

And what this quandary that I find, because I find that oftentimes, what we’re trying to do in relationship, the couples with whom I work, and I myself is put my best foot forward. But like, I want you to see the shiny parts. I want you to see the glimmer, I want you to see the glitz and how amazing I am, you know. We want our partners to say that we’re, you know, the gold standard. And yet, what breeds true intimacy are those more difficult moments, you know, the stuff that isn’t shiny, the stuff that’s patched over, but that needs to be unpatched and healed because it never healed in the first place. You know?

Cynthia Langtiw 28:46

And so that’s the paradox is that we want so much to be connected. We want to be connected. So we put on the mask, we put on the show, we put on the glitz, the glamour, the gold. And yet, the paradox is that it’s those quivery moments. It’s the patched up part. It’s the truth of who we are, that allows the vulnerability, that breeds that kind of authentic connection we’re actually looking for. Right?

Candice Wu 29:26

Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:27

We connect.

Candice Wu 29:29

Like, when you put it like that. Like, of course.

Cynthia Langtiw 29:34

We don’t connect, not really. I mean, yeah, we’re attracted to someone. But we fall in love, like, deeply in love with the parts of each other, that are quivery and vulnerable, and real and authentic.

Candice Wu 29:54

I could not say that better. Exactly. Well, and we become that glittery facade version of ourselves. Because it seemingly worked at some point.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:08

Sure.

Candice Wu 30:08

And we just keep ongoing —

Cynthia Langtiw 30:11

We do.

Candice Wu 30:13

And yet, our soul yearns to connect with the messy painful parts too.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:20

Yes. Absolutely.

Candice Wu 30:21

And so we want to see that in each other. We want to help each other to see those parts of ourselves.

Cynthia Langtiw 30:28

Yeah, and the more vulnerability, the more connection. If we’re able to accept ourselves and then accept the other and keep accepting the other. And so I see a big part of my work as a couple’s therapist, is to help, you know, partners, one, accept themselves and keep creating space for vulnerability, and true authentic connection, and to keep opening up that space. Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 31:11

I mean, that’s, yeah, that’s the work.

Candice Wu 31:15

Yeah, it is. And I find, in conjunction with that, keep accepting the other, and keep accepting yourself and the other and self. It’s such a fine balance. I guess just personally I have experienced accepting the other without accepting self, can tip over into that, and somehow neglected myself.

Cynthia Langtiw 31:44

Yeah.

Candice Wu 31:45

Or accepted. I think it’s a fine line of accepting someone’s vulnerability in their experience and what they’re sharing, but not accepting something that doesn’t feel good to you in terms of a treatment or way of relating or experience.

Cynthia Langtiw 32:07

I say this from deep experience with that very thing you just shared, Candice, that resonated for me so deeply. Where I was so accepting of the other, that I couldn’t even see myself anymore, which actually is a false acceptance of that other person, because I didn’t trust them enough to be completely myself, and so it wasn’t really accepting them. You know, I didn’t fully accept them if I don’t fully accept myself, and have boundaries for myself. Like, I can love you completely and say, this is how I’m going to love you from afar or up close, or we can continue this piece because it’s what’s right for both of us. Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 33:03

And so that, what you just said resonated so deeply there isn’t a way that I can deeply accept someone else or say that I do without being fully real, because then there’s a part of me that knows that what I’ll get in response, won’t be okay, won’t be enough. I’m not enough. So I have to shrink back or disappear in order to show up for this person, which isn’t trusting them and isn’t trusting their abilities.

Candice Wu 33:39

Their wholeness, their ability to accept you, to accept more or —

Cynthia Langtiw 33:47

Yeah.

Candice Wu 33:47

Be respectful or to hold that. Yeah.

Cynthia Langtiw 33:51

Yeah.

Candice Wu 33:52

I love how you described how that works in complete tandem.

Cynthia Langtiw 33:56

Yeah.

Candice Wu 33:56

Yes, it’s no separation.

Cynthia Langtiw 33:58

Right, and it takes so much courage to be in relationship. It takes so much self-compassion, compassion for others. It takes having clear and appropriate boundaries. So that’s something that we learn and if we didn’t learn, we can learn, right?

Cynthia Langtiw 34:19

And so it’s quite a bit of work to be, you know, fully in relationship. And yet, you know, it’s, I think it’s how we’re meant to be, not necessarily partnered. I’m talking about relationships, period. I absolutely believe that we were meant to be in deeply connected relationships and sometimes that looks like being partnered. Sometimes it looks like having, you know, a family relationship. Sometimes it looks like a best friendship. Sometimes it looks like X, Y, Z, a parent, a child. But I absolutely believe that we were meant to be in deep, authentic, connected relationships. We were and are built for it. I do.

Candice Wu 35:16

Absolutely. I can see. I feel that. Yeah. So there’s one other topic that I’m interested in, and let me know how you’re feeling now about it, is betrayal trauma, and both micro and macro levels of that.

Cynthia Langtiw 35:35

Yeah.

Candice Wu 35:36

Yeah. I just want to start with what you had written. I think somewhere in a profile about betrayal trauma. And you mentioned a psychologist, Jennifer, is it Freyd or Freid? That she identified betrayal traumas, a type of trauma that occurs when people or institutions on which a person depends for existence, significantly violate that person’s trust —

Cynthia Langtiw 36:03

Yeah.

Candice Wu 36:03

And well being, and that you mentioned it’s particularly harmful because one’s sense of trust, their connectedness, and their well being is compromised.

Cynthia Langtiw 36:13

Yeah, absolutely.

Cynthia Langtiw 36:15

And so for the years, you know, I worked with children, and I still do, and I saw this so clearly the confusion that happens when a child who is supposed to rely on their caregiver, right, they have to rely on their caregiver, is betrayed by that caregiver that I have found to be some of the most long-lasting, ingrained, embedded type of trauma, that’s the most difficult, from which to heal.

Cynthia Langtiw 36:49

And what I found over time is what Dr. Freyd shared, is that the mechanism that happens is that the very hand that supposed to care for you and feed you is the hand that slapping you and hurting you. And yet, you still need to be fed, in order to have sustenance and to live, your very survival depends upon you, figuring out how to manage this double-edged hand, if you will, that both feeds and hurts you. And so you figure out strategies, right, to both get the sustenance that you need from that hand, but to also know when to run away. No one to protect yourself, no one to — how to care for yourself.

Cynthia Langtiw 37:38

It’s a very unstable, difficult is an understatement, traumatic way to grow up, and I saw so many kids who had that double-edged hand, if you will, that sometimes fed them, sometimes hurt them. And they had to learn how to ingratiate themselves. They had to learn how to, you know, manage all of that, in order to survive. And so they came up with strategies to figure out how to do that. And so then, part of my work as a clinical psychologist with the kids who are now adults, right, who are couples, is to learn what patterns were learned in the context of that relationship. How to unlearn the patterns that weren’t helpful, and how to come up with strategies that are.

Cynthia Langtiw 38:32

What I came to realize, and I’m only going to touch upon this briefly because it’s so profound, so heavy, so large, that it gives me pause, is that very same pattern that I saw with the kids who became adults, who experienced betrayal trauma in the context of their caregiving relationship, that pattern, was happening on the micro-level, in the family, between parents and children or caregivers and children. But that pattern happens on a macro level.

Cynthia Langtiw 39:08

And I wrote a paper in which I reflected on how black children in particular, and both the Dominican Republic and the US, but I think that other people, children, experience this, experience betrayal trauma on a macro level. And what do I mean by this? What I mean is that there are structures in place that systematically discriminate and harm black youth, black children, black boys in particular and that is a form of betrayal trauma.

Cynthia Langtiw 39:46

So you have these black youth that are going to hospitals, to schools, to all of these systems that are supposed to care for them. And yet, within those systems, they are betrayed. They are actually harmed, right, the criminal justice system.

Cynthia Langtiw 40:06

As a mother of multiracial kids who present as black, my heart cannot comprehend what parents like Tamir Rice’s parents who was, you know, a 12-year-old boy, he was killed on a playground, what his parents must be experiencing?

Cynthia Langtiw 40:28

What Trayvon Martin’s parents must continue to experience?

Cynthia Langtiw 40:33

How on a macro level, these institutions are supposed to care for, you know, our children, and yet are systematically betraying them, is heady. And so what does that look like then in the work that I do? Right?

Cynthia Langtiw 40:53

In the work that I do, clients come in, and they’ve experienced betrayal trauma at the hands of their caregivers, but they’ve also experienced betrayal trauma on a macro level, and feel currently discriminated against and pained.

Cynthia Langtiw 41:09

And one of the things that I see as part of my job is to name that, to name that they should be treated better, to name that the feelings that they’re having are real, and a normative response. You know, psychologists talk about a healthy paranoia that some black people have, how that’s actually somewhat adaptive, right, in the face of this large scale, macro betrayal trauma.

Cynthia Langtiw 41:41

And I think that by naming that together, that we can begin to look at the psychological and emotional and spiritual impact, right, and also biological impact, right, like all of it, and begin to work on it, because we’re recognizing how large it is, and how these larger systems are complicit in terms of structural violence and systematic inequality.

Cynthia Langtiw 42:07

You know, the fact that school systems where people pay higher taxes are better, is just accepted, is unacceptable. Like, we just accept that as par for the course. That’s ridiculous.

Candice Wu 42:22

It is.

Cynthia Langtiw 42:24

And that’s part of the betrayal trauma that can happen on a macro level and I named that. And I named that as it related to how the clients that I see. How the people that I see working through their lives, experience the world and experience within themselves and can take that on as something that’s problematic about them. So similar to kids who have experienced betrayal trauma in the context of, you know, their caregiving relationships can take it on as they were bad. There’s something defective about them as a child that’s why it happened to them. I named that that was not the case. In a similar way, I named that for the clients that experienced betrayal trauma on a macro level.

Candice Wu 43:11

When you are talking about this, naming it, I was just thinking, how much of an impact that actually can have you to validate someone’s experience as real. And even if it’s the paranoia that is adaptive, whereas if someone said, well, you don’t have to be afraid or paranoid, like that, just invalidates everything, but when we can feel so helpless about this larger, macro-level betrayal and aggression and hurt, it can just feel heady, it can feel so big, like, what do we even do about it?

Cynthia Langtiw 43:56

Yeah.

Candice Wu 43:57

Reminded how these small droplets of validation and naming it, shifting just even a tiny, baby step away from silence and invalidation. It’s like homeopathy that can do so much for one individual and that can ripple out into their community or their loved one. Or, just being for themselves.

Cynthia Langtiw 44:25

Yeah.

Candice Wu 44:26

In that knowing of one person believed me, or felt me and understands my pain or suffering. It’s huge.

Cynthia Langtiw 44:35

Yeah. I love the way you put that homeopathy, and it is, right, like, that’s powerful.

Candice Wu 44:43

Yeah, like to not bypass how important these little tiny pieces of vulnerability can be and are.

Cynthia Langtiw 44:51

Absolutely.

Candice Wu 44:52

Yeah.

Candice Wu 44:55

Thank you for sharing these really important pieces, and I agree, it’s just so almost too profound and big to give it justice in the words here. But I appreciate what you’re doing and I feel that love for people comes through here in terms of people who are experiencing that on a very large level.

Cynthia Langtiw 45:26

Yeah.

Candice Wu 45:27

Thank you.

Cynthia Langtiw 45:28

That’s so meaningful to me. Thank you.

Candice Wu 45:32

It’s been incredible again to have you, to be talking with you, and for you to share what you’re working on and what’s inspiring you, what’s also paining you in your heart. And is there anything else you want to share?

Cynthia Langtiw 45:48

You know, I think I started all of this by saying we’re at our best when we’re connected to ourselves, and when we’re connected to others and this work that you’re doing to help reflect on how to do that is the stuff of life, and I so deeply appreciate it. Thank you, Candice.

Candice Wu 46:08

Thank you, Cynthia. I could not agree more with that for you and about you. And it’s just so wonderful that you exist, and you’re doing this work with people and that you exist as who you are in the world. And I look forward to the Interlog experience that you’re offering.

Cynthia Langtiw 46:30

I’m so excited.

Candice Wu 46:31

Thank you. Yes.

Candice Wu 46:35

Wonderful. Okay. Well, thank you so much. I learned so much. And let’s end it here, and just, I’m so grateful.

Candice Wu 46:46

It was such a pleasure to have Cynthia on the show and I’m so glad all of you are out there listening in. I hope it’s helpful to you and support you and finding some of your own belief in yourself, believe in your wholeness or even helps you see where you’re feeling broken hearted and where you want to take another step for yourself.

Candice Wu 47:09

Be sure to check out Cynthia’s experiential on Interlogs. In the first part of her episode, part one, she talks about Interlogs as a way of reflecting on your own process, if you’re a researcher, if you’re examining something and how your interaction affects the process, and what kind of transformation goes on within you, but she’s taking this to another level with Interlogs and opening up to, apply to anyone that’s looking at themselves and their process in any way. Maybe you’re an artist, maybe you’re doing healing work, or some sort of art, healing arts or something, that you can use this process to explore into yourself in a different way. So that episode will be coming out later this week. Look out for it. And again, you can find her full podcast with that experiential on the website with all the show notes and links at CandiceWu.com/cynthia or CandiceWu.com/ep64.

Candice Wu 48:10

Before you go, I’d love to invite you to hop onto my newsletter that comes out twice a month. This gives some updates about where I am in the world, what I’m healing and thinking about, as well as self-love notes that can support you in loving yourself more deeply, healing aspects of yourself, and it also keeps you up to date on any workshops or retreats that are happening. You can find everything at CandiceWu.com/embody.

Candice Wu 48:35

One last thing I want to mention is I encourage you to reach out to Cynthia if you’re interested in her work. If you’d like to stay in touch about her book that will be coming out. I’m not sure when, but if you want to stay in the loop, and if you want to contact her about speaking engagements, to invite her to your workplace or other places, reach out to her, the show notes are what will connect you directly.

Candice Wu 49:01

If you’re interested in reaching out to me to connect or to explore if we might be a good fit for healing work, feel free to reach out to me at CandiceWu.com/connect where you can set up a free 20-minute consultation and there’s no pressure to go forward. It’s 20 minutes we get together where we can talk about what you desire, what you want in your life for yourself, how you’re feeling and how you’re doing, and we can explore your next steps or check out how Constellations or Somatic Experiencing might support you. Or, I also give recommendations for other healers and therapists that may be a good fit for you. So that’s at CandiceWu.com/connect. I’m so glad you’re here and I hope you enjoyed this episode. See you next time on the Embody Podcast.

Introduction

Candice Wu 0:00

This is a special experience of Interlogs brought to you by Cynthia Lubin Langtiw.

Cynthia will explain what Interlogs is in a much better way. But if you want to hear the interviews that I’ve had with Cynthia, you can check out part one and part two, at CandiceWu.com/cynthia. There we talk about trauma in couple relationships, trauma in the world on a micro and macro level. We talked about belief in ourselves and the belief to create change in the world, and so many other beautiful things. She’s incredibly inspiring. So without further ado, here’s Cynthia.

Hello and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, Embodied Healing, and self-love.

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Hello From Cynthia

Cynthia Lubin Langtiw 1:17

Hello, my name is Cynthia Lubin Langtiw and I am a licensed clinical psychologist and I’m also a qualitative researcher.

And I want to walk you through a process around a really interesting liminal space that I’ve been exploring called Interlogs. So what are Interlogs you might ask?

Interlogs, with respect to qualitative research or formative experience or chapter in the qualitative research process that has the possibility of shaping and influencing the rest of the process.

The events or experiences of the Interlog can be directly or tangentially related to the actual research topic and they bring relief or different perspectives that can make the research process more personal.

Interlogs both clarify the process as they muddy the waters. Interlogs are stored in nature. And with respect to data analysis, interlogs are a critical aspect of bracketing or understanding our lens, that has the power and potential to transform the qualitative research process.

I want to take a step back as we’re thinking about being embodied and creative and think more broadly, as writers, as creators, as musicians, as inventors, as parents, as human beings, and whatever spaces in which we’re creating.

I want us to think about how we approach a particular topic, how we researched that topic, the lens with which we approach that topic. And I want us to think about the process that happens for us personally, as we engage in a professional topic, right?

There’s a reason that we chose the particular topic that we did, there’s a reason that we’re engaging with the characters in our writing and the way that we are. And there are sometimes ways that we feel stuck, or in between and that’s where the Interlog happen.

It’s what happens between the prologue and the Interlog underneath the story, in between the story, and I want us to, together, explore that liminal space.

Let’s Begin

And so, here’s our experiential project for today and I want us to think broadly, so it could be some writing that you do, it could be a drawing, or could be some reflection, but we’re going to spend about five minutes reflecting on the liminal, the in-between the lens, right, the pieces that aren’t directly the story, but that come from us. What is our personal connection to the topic at hand?

I want you to think about the topic and then I want you to think about your personal connection, those in-between thoughts that don’t make it necessarily into the story, or at least not in a direct way. But that absolutely, are woven into your connection.

And I want you to spend about five minutes in reflection and I want that reflection to be broad.

It could be a drawing. It could be words. It could be some free writing. Try not to edit yourself as you are doing some writing around this. Here’s to the in-between. I’ll come back to you in about five minutes.

[TAKE FIVE MINUTES :)]

Closing

Hello, everyone, we’re back together.

I hope that time of reflection helped you to think a little bit more deeply, differently, doubtfully in a different way, about the topic at hand.

My hope is that by exploring Interlogs, by exploring our transformation as we’re in process, by exploring the liminal spaces that we can expand on our creative process as we embody and live out the work that we intend to do, and that we are doing.

Here’s to being creative. Here’s to embodying. Here’s to in between. Here’s to liminal spaces, continue to Interlog.

Goodbye.

End

Candice Wu 11:22

I hope you enjoyed this experience with Cynthia.

Just a reminder that her podcasts are out as well at CandiceWu.com/cynthia. So check those out if you haven’t already and also check out the other experientials from other guests and myself on the podcast itself, CandaceWu.com/podcast.

Thank you so much for joining us today. It’s wonderful to have you here and hope to see you next time on the Embody Podcast.