Candice Wu 0:00

This episode is not just for the healers and empaths out there in the world, the therapists, helpers, counselors, wellness practitioners, doctors, firefighters, anyone who’s in a caretaking role, but it’s for everyone. In this episode, we look at empathy and where it goes wrong, from what place do we support other people or offer our help or care? Is it from a wounded place or is it from a place of wholeness and loving that goes both ways? We look at how it is that there are subtle ways that we try to save people, but that may be coming from our own fears, and how death, fear of death and fear of pain might be connected or tied up in these interactions.

Candice Wu 0:58

Hello, and welcome. You’re listening to the Embody Podcast, a show about remembering and embodying your true nature, inner wisdom, embodied healing, and self-love.

Candice Wu 1:11

My name is Candice Wu, and I’m a holistic healing facilitator, intuitive coach, and artist, sharing my personal journey of vulnerability, offering meditations and guided healing support, and having co-creative conversations with healers and wellness practitioners from all over the world.

Candice Wu 1:29

I want to give a shout out to all of you who support me and the podcast by offering your money and donation to contribute to the behind the scenes production of the podcast. Each episode takes several hours to edit and produce, to format and to publish, and also, not to mention, my own creative effort of sitting with what’s here with me receiving your feedback, receiving information from around me to create something that feels alive and vulnerable, real. So, all of your contributions and donations are so wonderful. I appreciate it so much, and it really touches me that you’re willing to offer that.

Candice Wu 2:19

If the podcast has inspired you in any way or supported you, offered you something and you want to give back, I would so appreciate if you did and checked out all of my offerings that you can receive in return or just to offer donation without anything in return. And I have a new page for all that it’s at CandiceWu.com/support, I used to use Patreon, and we’re in the process now of shifting everything over from Patreon over to my website, just so that all of your every penny can go towards the production of the podcast, and the least amount of processing fees can be taken from that.

Candice Wu 3:03

So, jump on over to CandiceWu.com/support if you’re interested in checking that out, and you can follow the links to my offerings, all of my offerings, my one on one client sessions, the Ally with Death Experience, which will soon be an audio experience as well, the Sound Sleep Album, all of my retreats and workshops, as well as the personal meditations that you can order, and the embodied group call that happens once a month, all of that is in support of the podcast and the new creations that I’m putting forward and developing. Thank you so much for considering donating, and it’s always touching to hear from you, even if it’s to share your feedback about what’s working for you and what’s not on the podcast, and the experientials with the guests or to ask questions and offer topics that you want to hear about, and by just jumping on and listening or sharing it with a friend that you feel might be supported by one of the topics or experientials. Thank you so much.

Candice Wu 4:11

So, welcome to the podcast, I’ve still been in Michigan and enjoying it so much. It’s interesting that everything in my body is calling me to stay very, very grounded. I even tried to schedule a flight to see a friend, and the internet dropped out several times. Their website wasn’t working that the flight that I wanted to get was through my rewards card in my credit card, and so, I kept trying day after day and finally, I gave up on the credit card rewards. I just thought, okay, I’ll just pay for this. And I found a flight that I had been looking at previously, and then it turned to like $500 to go from here to Milwaukee, and it was like forget it, I just take the train, which is only going to, you know, be another hour of train ride, no big deal, and it may cost me like $58 or something like that.

Candice Wu 5:09

It really wasn’t about the money. It was just clear to me though, that I was getting stopped in my efforts here several times, and I listened to those cues, whether that’s a message from the universe, or if you see it, that maybe my spirit guides were sending me a message or just something in me was really not wanting that and it was manifesting or just coincidence. Whatever it is, I like to receive that as a message that I meant to stand the ground. So, of course, I booked an Amtrak ticket, and that just went through really easily.

Candice Wu 5:48

So, I do notice that one thing was moved through easily, it’s usually the right thing with when I’m feeling at ease, when I’m feeling at peace and content, do you notice that in your experiences where are your feelings that decisions come with ease and you feel very at peace? Do you feel that way? There’s a sense in me that even when I feel a little bit of anxiety about something, I first investigate what that is, is it a fear? Or is it something in me that’s telling me, “No, it’s, you’re not really fully in this.” Lately, I’ve been almost, my body is almost demanded that I be 100% in my decisions, in how I spend my time and in what I’m doing in my life at the bottom line, and in that moment, I noticed that I chose to do something recently and it was somewhat a big commitment, and it was only like 95% in it in myself, something and he was like, “Oh, I’m not sure I want to do this.” And I ended up doing it for other reasons.

Candice Wu 7:04

There were some reasons I did want to do it, of course, but while I was experiencing it, I saw all the reasons emerge to the surface as to why I was hesitant. There was a lot in me about the situation as well as I wanted to spend a lot of alone time in doing certain things for myself, that I needed to be doing even just sitting and being present, lately, through all that’s been happening energetically and astrologically. I’ve needed a lot of time to just sit and digest all that’s happening inside and out. So, the information I’m getting right now is for me to be 100% a yes, about the things that I choose in my life. I’m noticing that when it’s a maybe or if I’m not 100%, that it’s a no until I do feel completely all in.

Candice Wu 8:14

I know there are things that I need to do that help, on some level, I don’t want to do like certain tasks. I don’t love doing administrative tasks. I don’t love doing just like the technical things anymore, as much as I used to, and yet, underneath it all, I know, I want to be doing this because that’s for the podcast or that’s for this blog post that I’m writing or the newsletter or something that really comes down to, “Oh, yes, I do want to do that.” So, if I can’t find a reason all the way down to the bottom, then maybe it’s good to just let it go.

Candice Wu 8:54

Before we jump into the episode today, I also want to update you about the past life experience that came up, that I talked about in the podcast two weeks ago. This podcast is at Candice without comm slash deep mystery. If you want to check it out, I talked about how I went camping, slept with a knife in my hands because I made some bad choices, one could say, but those choices led me to reveal a past life memory and its fullness which allowed me to heal on an even deeper level, and where I’m at now is claiming that part of me, that is me, from this past life, that has all sorts of knowing and wisdom.

Candice Wu 9:44

So, after that acupuncture appointment that I spoke about, where this whole memory revealed to me that I was Native American, and had gotten raped by a white man and that my father had to leave me to die, I went in to see what was the next step as far as this memory like, why did I need to be seeing this now and what was it that wanted to reveal itself to me, from me? And where I was led was to claim this young woman that I was, as a Native American?

Candice Wu 10:24

My body gives me confirmation when I sense into and imagine what that life was like, and then I see or think something very quickly, and the confirmation I got was that I was a young girl hitting puberty and stepping into a rite of passage moment of being a woman, and I wanted to do a ceremony that really fit who I was and I was very fierce, was like Warrier, very stubborn. I wanted to do things my own way, very strong, and a leader wanting to be a leader, and in that time, I’m not sure how supported I was, in some ways, I felt too big to fit into the containers of the tribe, and it seems like the women of the tribe wanted to do the ceremony the way that we do the ceremony, and I got really upset and wanted to do it my way, and that’s where I got into trouble.

Candice Wu 11:34

So, as I looked into the eyes of my past self, I could see the ferocity in her, the fire and fierceness. I could see that she knew how to live in the wild. She knew the plants, she knew the horses, she knew the animals, she knew earth, and the medicine that each of those bring, as well as song in ceremony and how to fight. She knew how to use bow and arrow, a knife, and to maneuver and to use fight energy if she needed to protect herself or to hunt, she was a hunter. So, that just catalyzed in me the desire to take my ability to protect myself and be strong in myself to another level. A lot of people take martial arts or do some self-defense classes. I’ve done both of those at some point, and now, at this time in my life, I want to experience some different things and sharpen those skills that I do have. So, I signed up for a lesson in sharp weapons.

Candice Wu 12:53

While I was camping, I was, you know, the thought the only thing I had was the knife in my hands, and I thought, okay, I’ll just sleep with it. If you had listened to that episode, you’ll get the full picture, and so, now I’m just thinking, well, if I’m going to have a knife in my hand, I better know how to use it, and hopefully I never need to use it. When you learn martial arts, it’s not to learn to literally just fight people, anywhere you go and to be violent or aggressive in your life, it’s just that you develop the confidence that you’re able to use certain parts of your body and energy to protect yourself or to do something that’s necessary if you’re ever in that situation, and whether you are not in that situation, that confidence that you can develop is really strengthening for the whole nervous system, for who we are in the world.

Candice Wu 13:52

If we all feel more confident, more in our bodies, more able to protect ourselves, we can feel safer, and that’s the idea now, so, I’m taking the sharp weapons class, and combat weapons. I think that’s like a baseball bat and how to use things to hit in the proper way, as well as archery and bow and arrow, and it’s really fun, it’s so fun. And I’m also able to use my eyes in a different way to direct my energy and be a little more precise at a distance, especially with archery, I find that my aim is horrible, and it has a lot to do with my focus and ability to sustain that focus at a distance, and I don’t think it’s coincidence that I am nearsighted and need glasses or contacts.

Candice Wu 14:56

And also this past life part of me now is being more integrated into me, I pictured her integrating into my body, and being me, which is the truth, I believe, well, that’s the truth, I believe, is that through the many lives that we have, we cultivate different knowing and sets of wisdom that are in our bodies and moving wisdom. And when we birth into the next life, sometimes, we want to develop different parts of ourselves, and we might forget the previous parts or we might remember them and be a genius in that, but there’s something here in this life for us to learn, and there’s a way in which we can claim, remember, and use all the wisdom that came from different lives, that we developed in different lives.

Candice Wu 15:59

And recently, I’ve been more attuned to the interstellar world, the world outside of earth, and that there are other dimensions within earth and outside of earth that we might be learning in as well and bringing those tools into our lives here or maybe that’s where we’re moving on to next. I never thought I would believe in that exactly or I guess we just couldn’t find a way for it to click with me that that existed, you know, and some people talk about aliens or other life, and it’s starting to make a little more sense to me that we as energies, as part of the universal consciousness, we find ourselves in different dimensions or we go to different places and times and lifetimes to know the wholeness of the universe, all the possibilities, all the energies that we can be, that we are, and we get to experience human life to heal and to learn and to grow, and to be and to honor who we are.

Candice Wu 17:20

So, as I look into myself as this past life, I just feel a connection with earth and animals in a new way, and I had an Akashic reading with Venessa Rodriguez, who was on the podcast very early on. In that reading, my guides were telling me to stay on the land and to look into plant medicine and connect with the plants that that would be revealed to me, and all this feels very exciting. It feels very enlivening and resourcing.

Candice Wu 17:52

So, enough about that for now. Feel free to jump on to that episode two weeks ago, if you didn’t get a chance to experience that. It also comes with an experiential called “You are the way, that you are the way to the mystery of your life, and you are the way to everything.”

Candice Wu 18:14

So, now let’s jump into the episode for today. This topic has been on my mind for I don’t know, at least a year, but somehow, I’ve just resisted talking about it, and what made me come to it now is that many people around me are talking about and asking me questions about what I think about it, and it seems like a lot of people are sorting out who they are, and what’s happening in their dynamics with people in their intimate relationships with their clients or with friends, with colleagues, and really, that is the topic for today. It’s “Who are you in relation to others?” And is part of your role in your relationships to “help people or to care for them or to heal them, save them feel responsible for them.”

Candice Wu 19:19

In this episode, everything I’m saying, there’s nothing wrong with any way of being and as there’s nothing wrong with wherever you’re at. It’s really looking at, “Oh, that’s where I’m at.” Like, wouldn’t you rather know who you are being and who you are right now, than not know? And that knowing gives you the chance to make a clear, continue to make a clear choice in your sovereignty of who you are or to make a new choice. So, knowing and awareness gives freedom. The knowing and awareness is not meant for criticism, to shame yourself or to pressure yourself to be someone else or something else because the bottom, bottom, bottom, bottom, bottom line is that you are the energy of all consciousness, you are pure love through a body, and in this body, we’ve chosen different ways to express pure consciousness. And sometimes, we think that those ways are who we are, we identify where we feel we’re just one way, and that’s who we are.

Candice Wu 20:47

There are very specific ways of being that’s in our DNA. So, that’s a biological coding, but then there’s an energetic coding underneath that, an energetic signature of who you’ve chosen to be in this life or who you are in this life, whatever you believe in. And if you’re in line with that, you might feel very much true to yourself, and that is true to your sovereignty, true to your choice, and underneath that is the love that we all are, all possibility that we all are. Then there’s the layer, like, removed from your choice of who you are, specifically in this life that’s unique to you, and what you might express in your life.

Candice Wu 21:42

So, I want to tell you a bit about me and my development and evolution of this feeling that I was responsible for people and wanting to really heal others, to where I am today in a much freer place for myself and others, in a place that really honors myself more and honors other people in the fullness that they are. When I first came to being a therapist and healer, I had come from being a teacher working with kids, and I saw very early in my career how much wisdom children had, and how alive that wisdom was, how fresh and real it was. It wasn’t some lines that someone had fed to them. Sometimes, it was, but other times when they were really present, and I was really present with them, there were these gems of what they were feeling and thinking that would come alive.

Candice Wu 22:57

And so, after I was a teacher, I taught art for kindergarten through second grade as well as sixth through eighth grade, and I loved the middle school age. After that, I transitioned into going to grad school for clinical psychology, studying Ayurveda, studying yoga as well, and all these other indigenous healing practices at the same time, along with family constellations. And emerging from all of those learnings, there was a way in which I still felt so responsible for people’s emotions and their well being. After working with clients, sometimes, I would feel a weight in me, and then somehow, I was the one digesting the emotions that seemed to be part of what the person was telling me they were experiencing or the storyline in which these emotions would emerge from. So, it seems like people were not quite digesting their own energy, and I was taking it on and doing it for them.

Candice Wu 24:08

That was so much work, and I was also doing that in my personal relationships. I had this way of having friendships where we were there for each other through all of what we’re experiencing, and while that can be beautiful and I still have that in some ways, it was the primary way of connecting with people is to, you know, share each of our problems back and forth, and in a sense, be that co-regulating parental loving force that I needed to help me develop that in myself. But it wasn’t seeing it that way at the time, I was just continuing to rely on people in my life to give that to me, and I would give it back. And I found that that also in itself had an exhaustion level, because I was seeing the power outside of me to some degree, but not consciously.

Candice Wu 25:14

So, as I looked at this deeper, it revealed to me that I was a Shaman in a past life, and a witch. And specifically in my Shaman time, it was essential for me to be responsible for my village, for my people and tribe, and they came to me to receive healing and to receive guidance, and I would stay in my cave to restore and in that kind of worked because I was living in nature and was able to feel the earth resource and to use my shamanistic skills very well in moving energy and connecting with many dimensions to support me. I don’t really know the details of that, and it doesn’t seem that important right now, but what is really important is that, on a cellular level, I was skilled at taking in other people’s energy, like literally sucking it out of them, and then spitting it out, coughing it up, and I was the function of the healing.

Candice Wu 26:33

I realized that that was a very old way of healing for me, then it was from lifetimes ago, and that in this lifetime, it wasn’t for me anymore. I wanted to find what was me and a fresh way, an expanded way for me in this life, to grow into being of support to others, walking alongside people, instead of being bigger than them in a way. As a Shaman, that was expansive at that time it was needed, and it was purposeful and I wanted to do that. If you are doing that right now, or you find yourself having a similar way of being with these patterns, that’s okay. There’s no judgment from me, and there really isn’t judgment necessarily about that. The real question is, is that how you want to be and is that the best for your expansion and your well being in this life right now? And maybe it was before, like a year ago or yesterday, and maybe it’s not now, or maybe you were in a different way of being and now that is very interesting, enlivening and expansive.

Candice Wu 27:57

So, there’s no right way. There’s no best way that applies to all. There’s only what’s best for you, and another piece of this all is that, because I came into this life with this way of being able to take other people’s energy, and release it, digested and release it or just get rid of it, for whatever other reasons, I came into a specific family that needed that. With that, seemed to not have the functions of digesting their emotions, and supporting and loving their well being. So, early on, in my childhood, even as an infant, I had this impression and feeling sense that I was here to be responsible for other people, and we can look at this in all sorts of psychological or soul, soulful ways.

Candice Wu 28:55

We can see this from conditions of worth, through Carl Rogers’ work in psychology, where, what are the ways in which I have to act to be worthy and to be loved? And from a family constellations perspective, that’s very similar. Where do I need to stand and who do I need to be? Who, as in not myself, but who else do I need to be? What energy Do I need to hold? Or what do I need to do to belong in this family, to be seen? Where’s the energy, the direction of energy going from family members or I need to be right there, so they can see me and is that in the middle of chaos, is that in the middle of devastation? And for me, I felt so needing to be a parent to my parents so that I could be seen. There were things and patterns that had happened back in my ancestry that created that or were a part of that dynamic.

Candice Wu 30:05

So, it’s not to blame my parents, it’s started long before them, but it’s to say that I stood in the role of my parents, responsible to my parents, as a young child, and yet I could never fill that role. So, along with that came not being enough, and wanting to help my parents, so that I could ultimately be enough and be seen as enough, taking care of their emotions, taking care of their well being taking care of my siblings, from the place of needing to feel worthy enough, and that lived on for many, many, many, many years after that. And it’s not just a mental process to say, “Oh, I’m doing that. So, let me stop.” It’s in my body, it’s in the responses of my nerves system to what wasn’t safe, and what felt like was the safest I could get to, and where could I even find something for me, and there’s a deeper love there, too, loving other people loving my family members wanting everyone to belong, and making sure that they do by helping, by supporting.

Candice Wu 31:29

So, through all this, and working with all these pieces — past life, lineage, belief sets that come through from all this, I felt into a new way for me, that was to be in myself, to be fully who I am, doing what I want to do, loving myself, and therefore having a two-way kind of love that reaches out to others as well. That’s not from a place of “I’m not enough, and if I care for you, I’ll be enough or I’ll be needed or I’ll be validated.” It’s, I validate myself and I can use tools, and support and resource from around me to enhance my ability and capacity to love myself and to continue to develop it, it doesn’t just happen, suddenly, and ending there, but a continual process of that and being in the place of my adult present self that has capacity to continue to love myself and what comes up or to notice when it’s not happening, and can see others with that same capacity or a deeper capacity, the greatest capacity of all possibility, living in each person around me, no matter how they express in a human form.

Candice Wu 33:06

For me, it’s to be a compassionate witness to what they’re experiencing, to be present with them, to honor it, and not try to change it or assume that it wants to be changed or that they want to change to respect someone else’s desire, and move with them from there, checking in with what they desire and what their choices are, and ultimately, it’s seeing that they’re in the hands of the universe, which is them, which is themselves, and everything around them.

Candice Wu 33:41

In a family constellations perspective, it’s seeing that they have an entire lineage of wise and strong people where something had to go right for them to exist in this life, and to exist right now, and perhaps a whole soul belonging that they have, or entourage of guides, resource, earth, animals that may be supporting them in some way, whether they know it or not, that I can see exists for them as well. And if I’m able to hold that, I can see this person much more clearly, and if I’m also able to accept that death has its place, that pain has its place, that sadness has its place, anger has its place, and all of that is, is part of the beauty of what we get to experience, not just tolerable, but part of the beauty. Then when I see someone in pain, I don’t need to just immediately rescue them. Rescuing them is also something that can be done, and it’s not a bad thing. Sometimes, we need to be rescued. Sometimes, other people need to be rescued, but it also depends on what the deeper want, need and capacity is, and what one can do for themselves, which is much more powerful at the core than what another can do for someone else.

Candice Wu 35:31

Now, there’s, that’s also to be argued, like, there are definitely super impactful moments where somebody else has said something to me or done something for me, that made a huge difference. So, I’m not saying to not do any of that, but I am saying that I’m interested in guiding myself from my heart and also, my deeper knowing, and at any time my deeper knowing and my capacity to feel into my heart might not be the fullest it could possibly be, which is probably true, you know, this is why I’m here to expand and to continue to deepen in that. But even to the max of what I do have, at any moment, I might not be there. How much of me is here? How much of me is available? And from that place, what do I desire to do? And from the place that also holds another in their wholeness, how do I want to be and interact?

Candice Wu 36:45

If it’s a crisis situation, like something very immediate, that might be a totally different process. I’m not going to sit there and meditate on it or think about it like that, I might just act. In the aftermath, I might see who I was being in that moment and if I stand behind myself or not, and I can go for really any situation, crisis or not. Do I stand behind the choice I made? And one of my teachers, Suzi Tucker, says that she likes to make choices that allow her to continue to make more choices that she can stand behind. That’s my interpretation of what she has shared with me to be exact.

Candice Wu 37:34

So, it’s really also a question of how are we using our gifts, I do have a gift of being able to work with energy and do something with energy that people may or may not want to do something with. And as a young child that was overused, are you overusing your gifts or overworking? When you’re in an interaction with someone else, are you constantly using one way of being or one tool in yourself, one gift in yourself. I also want to talk about empathy in this episode. I love talking about empathy, I’ve had a really different relationship with empathy, and that definitely, relates to the process in which I see myself in my role.

Candice Wu 38:27

Empathy in the past, for me, has meant not just being in another’s shoes and seeing that perspective, but feeling it on a whole body and energetic level, and before I just wasn’t able to give it back. Like, I could feel into someone’s experience, and then somehow I’d be left with it, and it was my deeper pattern of taking that on and taking responsibility, but also, sometimes, it was my own experience being triggered. And me, relating to someone and having identified with them energetically, because I had that experience in some way and those feelings. So, for me, sometimes it was a double whammy, like, having to be triggered, my experiences being triggered, and looking at that and also seeing the umbrella or the holding pattern to that, which was to take on other people’s feelings and feel responsible for them, feel like I have to be bigger than them and hold that space for someone, when sometimes who I’m talking to is older than me or more developed than me, whatever, it really doesn’t matter if they’re older or younger, but in the case of my parents, it did.

Candice Wu 39:52

So, I want to talk about when empathy goes wrong, and I kind of hesitate to use those words, but maybe it’s better to say, when empathy goes too far, if we see empathy on a spectrum, where, maybe, one point of empathy is to be able to witness someone with some warm, with our capacity of presence and awareness there, and to see them in their experience and honor that they’re experiencing it and that their whole enough to handle it. If we see them in that light, versus if we see them with pity or assume that we feel something, that they feel something about it, then we can project our own feelings on them, and in return, they feel differently in relation to us.

Candice Wu 40:54

Have you noticed that where someone believes in you, versus where someone else so feels a similar doubt as you towards you? Like, “Oh, yeah, you know, not sure.” You might feel differently in your body and in your heart. So, that’s where I like to be in seeing myself as full and seeing another as full, and witnessing what’s happening and just being present, being there. It doesn’t mean I have to give advice or support or say loving words. It might just be as much as seeing what they’re experiencing. I see your pain, I see that you’re in this experience. From that place to taking on some of their emotions or when we assume as I said that someone feels a certain way, we’re projecting our feelings, but those are our feelings about that kind of experience.

Candice Wu 42:02

Have you ever had an experience where someone told you that they’re in a certain situation or something happened to them? And you say, “Oh, no, or you say, Oh, I’m so sorry.” And they say, “Oh, I am fine about it.” And sometimes, that’s denial, but sometimes that’s actually true, right? And so, we’re there’s a mismatch to how you assumed they would feel, and they actually feel. And maybe, they feel upset later, but right now, in the moment, they’re saying they feel fine. It’s a different topic to challenge them or say, oh, tab empathy and say, Oh, wait, you know, it seems like there’s something else here. That’s something else. But when we just outright assume something, and that’s not where they’re at, we get this chance to see that that was our own projection, and where we think or we can call it empathy to have offered that feeling from us. It’s not actually empathy. It’s actually being in our own experience, seeing it from our way.

Candice Wu 43:23

Also, when we feel for someone, we feel for them, instead of them feeling for themselves in a way, instead of seeing them and trusting their own ability to feel and experience. We might take on that whole energy of the feeling, and they may be discarding it are leaving it with you, maybe not, but that’s possible. That whole dynamic is a very developmental young experience for the person that might be discarding it, and that you may maybe their parental figure holding and being that digestive space. And this is an interesting dynamic, because then we also need to look at, if you’re the one being that parental figure or holding space, why are you doing it? It can be easy to say that it’s empathy, and I being caring and supporting someone, but is that serving a purpose for you that also is a pattern of yours or is something that keeps you in a cycle, or a smaller space for yourself, a dependency for yourself? Do you depend on other people to need you? Or do you pride yourself on the ability to use this tool and keep others dependent on you? Does this give you your validation or enough?

Candice Wu 45:01

Like, it has for me, in the past of varying degrees, you know, there’s a whole dynamic of empath narcissist that people label as this empath Narcissus dynamic, where someone who’s really empathic and intuitive, and sensitive attracts. They mutually attract each other. Someone who has traits of narcissism that may draw the attention towards them, and need that kind of support and dependency and can hook someone in to be that for them in almost every capacity or to varying degrees of their lives as a whole. That’s a whole different topic, and there’s so much more to that story, but we often see the empath with more empathy, I guess. We look upon that more favorably to be the empath in that situation, to be the helper in that situation, rather than the helped.

Candice Wu 46:17

We see that perhaps the empath is doing something better than the narcissist is doing because sometimes the narcissist, the person we call the narcissist, it really don’t like to use that label, we often see them as like, lashing out if the other person isn’t doing what they want or using manipulation to keep the person who is very sensitive and caring in that space for them, and yet, doesn’t the person who’s empathic and sensitive do the same thing. There’s a manipulation happening on both levels. When this dynamic is happening, of perpetrator victim as well, when it goes to that level that one is a victim of the other, both people are tied up with some energy coming from the same energy, both people are tied up with belief sets that come from the same similar place of worthiness, need or validation or dependency, somewhere we can find that there’s a place in which both are codependent. And in other cases of empathy, where empathy can go too far is where we put ourselves aside, we put others before us and prioritize their feelings and needs, and maybe sometimes even feel an urgency about that, and we put our own basic needs sometimes or lives aside.

Candice Wu 48:01

This can happen where a mother looks towards her child and says, “I need to give everything to this child, I need to be there for them. They’re not feeling well and x y&z places, and I need to be there and I need to help them.” And we look at that person’s life as a whole, and I’m not bashing mothers at all, I think being a mother is one of the most honorable and beautiful things one can do, but when a mother puts themselves aside and focuses all their energy on their child, we do need to wonder, what about their own life? And what does that say to the child, you’re worthy, but I’m not, and essentially at the bottom that says, that’s another thing, I’m not worthy of taking care of myself, and that message gets transmitted to the child inherently, implicitly in the body, in the actions, and those actions speak louder, sometimes than what’s covering it up, the helping that’s coming their way, all the energy coming their way. And it puts that child in a position of a lot of weight, like, I have to be so much better, or I have to have so much help, and I have to do this for my mother, too, because if I don’t, then she’s not going to be okay.

Candice Wu 49:35

And how different for a child to see their mother taking care of themselves, to see their mother in their fullness, giving them the space to be in their fullness or be in their struggle, whatever it is, but their mother reaching out from there, helps them to see the way because their mothers, part of showing them the way that she’s having, opens up a pathway that a child can see, “Oh, I have a way, too, and I am worthy of taking care of myself, and I can learn how to do that. I don’t always have to just give to others like my mom’s doing.” There’s a way that we implicitly and in our, in some way comes outside ways that we can be just like our parents, especially with the parts of our parents we resist or don’t want to be like, and this is where it can come out, you know, we can be just like our mom that gave us all the focus and energy and gave herself none by doing that somewhere in our lives, and then we don’t know how to take care of ourselves.

Candice Wu 50:49

So, I’ve used this mother and child example, but this really can apply to any relationship. If you are giving all of yourself to your friend, nothing to yourself, or very little and not enough, not taking care of what you really need to feel full, healthy and whole, then you’re not really able to fully be present for your friend or whoever else it is, anyway, but also on the receiving end, that support is coming from a very small capacity, small energy, and not to belittle it, but to say that there isn’t much there, if we’re giving away everything, one none to ourselves. So, that’s where empathy can go too far as well, and it can really take a toll on someone, and on the surface, it can be seen as a selfless act.

Candice Wu 51:53

We often overstate, I think selflessness, we see people giving so much to others, and we praise and we praise that, and how much do we praise people taking care of themselves? That’s very much shifting, we’re doing that so much more, at least in the fields that I’m running around, like the mental health field in wellness, there’s that’s shifting, where we’re saying, “Yes, good, you took care of yourself.” And there’s just through threads of time, where we valued being selfless, meaning doing for others and not yourself, meaning doing and being kind to the world around you at its fullest, and not needing to put yourself in that mix it as well.

Candice Wu 52:51

There’s a time and place for selflessness. If and I know that it’s also in many spiritual practices, it’s really a discussion of where someone is at the level of having transcended the ego dance, the dance of pain and being triggered like those triggers, those wounds are more healed, or at a level where they’re not in control of someone’s life, and where they’re maybe not even a thing where unconditional love is very present. That’s where some people might call these people or beings “Ascended Masters”. There’s a selflessness to that, and also, it might be necessary in times where someone is truly selfish and just very self-centered to the point that it’s hurting them. It’s not their growth edge anymore, that it hurts them and others or that the new growth would be to learn to let that love reach out to other people, not just themselves, and there’s a whole host of developmental like, young child parts to that that are probably connected.

Candice Wu 54:15

But when we force selflessness, even in that situation I’m talking about where it might be helpful to be a little more selfless, when we force it, and not heal it, and develop it organically. When we force it, there’s always some tension or resistance living in our bodies and in the system that we live in. In the community, our body will show it. We can’t skip being selfish, and developing our sense of self and caretaking for ourselves and being there for ourselves, loving ourselves developing an identity so that we can eventually release that identity and be fuller. That’s part of our developmental process as a human, as a child and in our soul, that we need to know who we are, and fill up on who we are, be seen and mirrored and take in all that love so we can know who we are, and be egocentric, like five year olds are, right? If they get to be. And if we didn’t get to be, we didn’t get that loving attunement, we might still be asking for that now in our lives, and that’s where we can give that to ourselves, and organically heal that so we can become more natural in the place of love from within, loving towards ourselves and loving outwards. Really don’t love to call it selflessness, but I did want to address that topic of selflessness.

Candice Wu 56:00

In order to ascend, when people talk about ascension, it’s about being one with the universe, the light that we are the unconditional love, that is who we are. When we ascend in human form, we must descend into the body and become embodied, live in the human form, master all the ways of being human, not just the functional things that we need to do and learn how to do in this consciousness of earth, and how earth functions right now and how people function on earth, but to come with our own creativity, and also, to master navigating all the emotions and ways of being that one can be, to have the capacity to embrace all of it and know how to work with it and use it, and feel your inner knowing.

Candice Wu 57:06

So, back to selflessness just for another moment here, when we do for others, and we take empathy to that degree, and supporting others or caretaking for others to the degree where not taking care of ourself, often that also serves to distract from what you need to do for yourself, whether that’s looking at a wound that’s really hard to look at or something that is going on for you. It serves to help you feel powerful or in control, or okay, when you can help other people when they’re not okay or see people is not okay, and continue to like, create bad or find, they can find those parts and others, and that’s how you’re relating two people, but we’re also, you might be distracting from your life path, like what you want to be spending your time with, where you’re most empowered, what you’re desiring for you and your worthiness? Do you feel like you are worthy of pleasure, enjoyment, peace, and those endeavors looking at those parts of us? If we continue to avoid those parts, we really don’t do a service to anyone. That is the deepest service, to all. It’s the deepest loving to know who you are and to move towards what you desire, to be in your pleasure, to be in your worthiness.

Candice Wu 58:54

There’s one last piece I want to mention with all this is that there’s a difference between being caring and being a caretaker as your one role or as your main role, and there’s nothing wrong with being a caretaker as your main role, like that might be your job title, that might be what you’re choosing to do. It’s really how you do it, and why you’re doing it. If you’re doing it on some unconscious level to distract from your own life, how much do you want to do that? It’s okay to do that. Sometimes, we need to distract from our lives. Sometimes, we need to feel that empowerment that we get when we can help someone else with their life, and also, recognize and have perspective that maybe our issue is not so bad, or we’re in this together. So, there’s nothing wrong with any of it. It’s the question for you if you want to explore it, only if you want to explore it, is that there are multiple parts of who you are. And are they all being looked at? Are they being offered in this life and expressed in who you are honored in yourself? Are we living our lives? Are we in our roles and our lives coming from a place of woundedness driving underneath, whether that’s conscious or unconscious?

Candice Wu 1:00:25

You may have heard of archetype wounded healer, and Sarah Buino has a whole podcast of conversations with a wounded healer, and talking about these very things, like, where are we coming from and who are we? What is a wounded healer and identifying that so we can see that happening in us if we want to see it, and make sure that that’s the choice we want to have or choosing what we want to have?

Candice Wu 1:00:58

And before we go and end this episode, I want to talk about endings and death. I touched into death just once in this conversation, but for me, all this conversation also amounts to embracing death and all sorts of emotions as part of the beauty of experience, as I mentioned, but death we’re often afraid of death or we have all these emotions that pour out from it or nothing at all. Everyone experiences that differently and sees it differently, but are you at peace with death? And if you’re not, what is your relationship with death? And how does that show up in ways in which you help others or are in relation to others?

Candice Wu 1:01:52

If I resist death or resist certain emotions, when I interact with others, then I resist to some degree, whether that’s subtle or not or overt, covert or overt. I might resist what they’re experiencing, and ultimately, that just honors them that might even dismiss what they’re experiencing or disrespect them. But when I have the capacity to honor anger, pain, death, sadness, annoyance, any emotion that is challenging, even joy, when I have the capacity to hold that in myself and see it, be with it, respect it, then I can do that for others to or I can begin to.

Candice Wu 1:02:54

Sometimes, we think that others need our help, we have a suggestion for them and we want to give it to them or give them our advice or do something for them, and we do need to keep ourselves in check because what does that say to someone else? That their situations not okay? That there are choices ain’t okay or we could do it better? My friend, Nick Werber talks a lot about this, embracing one’s fate, and in the family constellations world, we discussed that, that thought that accepting one’s fate means accepting their choices. It means accepting, not just accepting but respecting and agreeing with them of their own choice. It’s really not for us to agree, too, but respecting it.

Candice Wu 1:03:54

So, I leave you today with these questions. How are you relating to yourself? What parts of yourself are you able to be with? Who are you? Where are you coming from when you’re in a role of helping others or caretaking or coaching or being a therapist or being a friend, a daughter or a son, mother or father? How is it that you see people? Be honest, and in different situations that might be different. And how is it that you want to see people? How is it that is a deeper seeing? Where do you believe you know more than someone else whether you assert it or not? Or where you believe those thoughts that you feel, you know, more than them or why they’re where they’re at and that you can see something they can’t? There’s a fine line of intuition and asserting yourself energetically, inserting yourself and violating energetically, because you feel you know more. Were you working harder than someone else for their lives? And what parts of yourself need caretaking, saving or tending to, parts of yourself or asking for empathy? What parts of yourself want to feel worthy and in your pleasure, desire, and in the life that is 100%? You? And do you push that aside for others or do you push that aside?

Candice Wu 1:06:06

So, I think that’s enough for today. I loved this conversation and had a lot of fun. I’d love to hear your feedback, your discussions around this or what comes up in you around this, and if you disagreed with me or found something I said offensive, feel free to share that if you found something that helps you explore. I’d love to hear about that as well.

Candice Wu 1:06:34

To close today, I’ll just offer all the different podcasts that I refer to and the people that I referred to, as well as other episodes that can relate to this topic. So, I give a shout out to Venessa Rodriguez who did the Akashic reading for me recently. She is excellent and she also works with Feeding your Wild. Her episode on the body podcast is at CandiceWu.com/venessa, VENESSA, and there you can also connect up with her website, feedyourwild.com, I believe, and all of the different links that she offers.

Candice Wu 1:07:14

I shared about Suzi Tucker, my family constellations teacher, and you can find her at suzitucker.com or at CandiceWu.com/Suzi, her episode with me on the podcast, and her name is spelled SUZI. I also mentioned my friend, Nick Werber, who is a constellations facilitator. He and I love talking about death, and we did in this episode at CandiceWu.com/nick.

Candice Wu 1:07:45

I mentioned Sarah Buino in her podcast conversations with the Wounded Healer. I actually appeared on that podcast and it was so much fun. You can find that episode at CandiceWu.com/conversationswithawoundedhealer, and there you’ll be able to link to her whole podcast. Also, I mentioned the deep mystery of life episode that was two weeks ago at CandiceWu.com/deepmystery, and we spoke a lot about self-worth, worthiness. And there’s an episode that isn’t a discussion but it’s more like a download around worthiness, where it’s set to music and I just say affirmations and support the body in taking that in, and that’s at my website/worthiness.

Candice Wu 1:08:46

Also, if you want to stay up to date on my travels, on the podcast, guests experientials and topics, retreats, workshops, things that I’m offering, you can tune into my newsletter that comes out every two or three weeks. You can sign up at CandiceWu.com/embody.

Candice Wu 1:09:07

Thanks so much for joining me today. It’s really great to have you and looking forward to connecting with you next time on the Embody Podcast.